UBx Tempo

[Valdarith]

I hope Zem and others don't mind me starting this thread, but I am very interested in tuning this deck we've been talking about for the past week as I feel it is very well positioned in this current meta.

A week ago, Zemanjaski posted a UB Tempo deck he's been brewing in his head. It got me excited because I had been considering moving to something similar as a change-up to my mono red deck. A lot of the decks in my local meta appear to be shifting to midrange strategies specifically to beat aggro so I feel that now is the perfect time to get away from red for a bit (at least on paper; I'll be rocking mono red online for quite a bit longer) and change things up.

For the record, here is a draft that Zem posted.

[deck]UB Tempo Draft[/deck]

This deck has some strong possible starts with Delver but likes to win with Pikes. It maindecks graveyard hate, aggro hate, and countermagic to deal with instant and sorcery heavy decks. Invisible Stalker is very hard to deal with currently and not many decks are packing answers to this card.

It's also been suggested that a white splash may be worth it to grab Lingering Souls and Azorius Charm. I think this is great, but that would also change the playstyle of the deck. Personally, I would like to stick with UB. I feel like UB would be more consistent in terms of a more stable mana base and it would play a little more controlling tempo which I feel would be more effective vs midrange and control strategies.

I think the above core is pretty strong, but there are a couple of changes I’d like to suggest:

1) I think Tribute to Hunger should be Devour Flesh. I think
one less cmc is a big deal in a 20-land deck running Snapcaster Mage. Given that Pike is our main win con I don’t think we mind our opponent gaining life here, and the extra life we’d gain from Tribute would be insignificant.

2) The main deck currently has no answers to planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments. This is the same weakness that Esper Flash has and answers in the sideboard with Sundering Growth. I think it would behoove us to run flexible countermagic in response. Syncopate would be a good two-of in my opinion. Unlike Negate, it can be used to counter creatures which is great against aggro decks that will typically be tapping out to cast creatures on curve. I'd keep a Negate as a one-of at least.

3) I think four Dimir Charm is too many as it’s almost completely dead vs midrange and Jund aggro. I’d go to three main and four in the side.

4) I actually like Cyclonic Rift over Unsummon since it allows us to bounce noncreature permanents so we can counter them next turn. This goes back to
number two. It also opens up a Rift/Duress combo after sideboard.

Here’s what I propose

[deck=Valdarith’s UB Tempo]
Creatures (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Invisible Stalker

Spells (25)
2 Cremate
4 Thought Scour
2 Tragic Slip
2 Syncopate
3 Devour Flesh
1 Ultimate Price
1 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Runechanter’s Pike
2 Forbidden Alchemy

Sideboard (15)
2 Cremate
2 Dispel
3 Duress
1 Dimir Charm
2 Negate
1 Ultimate Price
2 Bane Alley Broker
2 Flex slots[/deck]

I recall a brief discussion regarding card advantage engines for control matchups and stumbled upon Bane Alley Broker. I could be way off base here, but is this not a card we’d like to play? It lets us see more cards, it’s a creature that can carry a Pike, and, if we were even psychotic enough to maindeck it, it can even block 2/x aggro critters.

Any thoughts on this? Is splashing white actually better? Why or why not? Let’s get a discussion of this archetype going!

[zemanjaski]

I hope Zem and others don't mind me starting this thread

A little, I had wanted to make a full primer in a week or so, but that is on me for not saying something earlier.

1) I think Tribute to Hunger should be Devour Flesh. I think one less cmc is a big deal in a 20-land deck running Snapcaster Mage. Given that Pike is our main win con I don’t think we mind our opponent gaining life here, and the extra life we’d gain from Tribute would be insignificant.

This is going to be a meta-call; in many matchups the lifegain is not at all insignificant (it wins a non-zero number of games actually). With 8 cantrips in the deck, and given its grindy nature, hitting land drops isn't much of an issue. The more midrange and control heavy your meta is, the better Devour Flesh is of course.

2) The main deck currently has no answers to planeswalkers,
artifacts, and enchantments. This is the same weakness that Esper Flash has and answers in the sideboard with Sundering Growth. I think it would behoove us to run flexible countermagic in response. Syncopate would be a good two-of in my opinion. Unlike Negate, it can be used to counter creatures which is great against aggro decks that will typically be tapping out to cast creatures on curve. I'd keep a Negate as a one-of at least.

None of these are cards you need answers to. Planeswalkers are horrible against this deck and you have maindeck Negate anyway; so you DO have answers. Syncopate in a 20 land deck is OK but Tribute isn't?

3) I think four Dimir Charm is too many as it’s almost completely dead vs midrange and Jund aggro. I’d go to three main and four in the side.

Still kills all the mana dorks, huntmasters and early drops, plus counters all their key spells. Not amazing, but it does work. Going to three is probably fine.

4) I
actually like Cyclonic Rift over Unsummon since it allows us to bounce noncreature permanents so we can counter them next turn. This goes back to number two. It also opens up a Rift/Duress combo after sideboard.

I can't think of any time you would really need to do this. Unsummon is mostly there to rebuy Augurs and Snapcasters, or act as a 1 mana counter against Supreme Verdict; all things Cyclonic Rift does significantly worse.

recall a brief discussion regarding card advantage engines for control matchups and stumbled upon Bane Alley Broker

This is a good idea and is definitely worth testing.

[Valdarith]

I actually created the thread as kind of a placeholder for brewing until you had come up with a proper primer. I probably should have made the title a little more descriptive in that regard. I blame me being too assertive and really wanting to talk about the deck!

Fair point about Tribute and Syncopate. My line of reasoning for Syncopate was its flexibility but it would certainly be a hindrance against control decks running 26+ lands. I'm going to try to run Tribute as a one of to see how it performs.

As for Dimir Charm, I totally forgot about Huntmaster. I actually haven't seen him in awhile and Charm is great for him. I'll stick with three in main and one in side.

Regarding Unsummon, I suppose I was looking at it from an offensive standpoint. Blame my red-tinted glasses for that. If splashing white, that would make Saving Grasp
worth it, no? Or do you still prefer the flexibility Unsummon offers?

[Valdarith]

So I played eight games between Bant midrange and Dimir mill, neither of which I would call indicative of the meta, but the Bant deck was certainly FNM top 4 quality. Some observations:

1) I found Tragic Slip to be pretty awkward. Usually I'm a fan of this card but in the case of this deck it really only seems relevant in the later stages of the game when we need to get rid of a fatty, but even then a Piked creature usually makes that unnecessary. It does leave some openings for Devour Flesh + Tragic Slip, but maybe it'd be better to just run another Dimir Charm and Ultimate Price instead. I'll continue testing.

2) The Bant deck played midrange beasts like Sigarda and Zegana, but neither were scary. The former did not matter when I was threatening a three turn clock with a Piked creature and the latter never got my opponent card advantage because I just kept the board down to one creature before he cast it, then cast a
Devour Flesh in response to Zegana, netting him one card.

3) I feel like the deck wants to play a lot like the UW flash deck that was so famous at the beginning of RTR. That said, this deck isn't as easily countered as UW flash was.

4) This deck mulligans well and also has a wide variety of keepable hands. That said, I have to learn what hands I should actually ship. I found myself keeping hands with a creature, a couple of cantrips, a spell, and three lands, and it felt fine, but I wonder how greedy is too greedy. Do I definitely need a counter or removal spell in my opener, or is it okay to keep that kind of hand based on the probability of drawing into counters and removal with my cantrips? Something to keep in mind.

5) Snapcaster Mage is a friggin baller. It just opens up so many possibilities.

6) I had Syncopate as a one-of in the main and I liked it. It was very flexible and even against a midrange deck it worked out well for me. It was nice being able to use it as a turn two or three
counter for both a creature and a spell.

[Nuwen]

I've been playing a UBR deck for the past couple FNMs. Like yours, Dimir Charm & Delver interaction is a quick and dirty wincon but unlocking red gives me strong burn finishers, hand destruction. Dimir Charm also sets up Bonfire, a potent nuke/boardwipe, and fishes for wincons/pike wielders.

You can't spot remove/answer everything in a meta with 60/15 slots; slaughter games and rakdos' return are worth their slots in gold to break apart another deck's wincons on the fly.

I sideboard Augur <-> Duskmantle Seer against decks with a consistently faster clock or lower curve. Against value creature/midrange/rites, Duskmantle Seer behaves as a finisher.

Undying Evil and countermagic are my primary responses to removal. Red gives you Izzet Charm, a VERY strong tempo card. Wouldn't leave home without it.

My store features a lot of unburial rites players, so my sideboard includes
graveyard hate in the form of beckon apparition. All of my counterspells exile as a secondary effect. What do you think of self-replacing cremate there vs. apparition?

[deck]Artifact (1)
1 Runechanter's Pike

Creature (9)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Duskmantle Seer
2 Olvia Voldaren

Instant (20)
4x dimir charm
2x dissipate
3x forbidden alchemy
2x izzet charm
4x searing spear
2x syncopate
2x tragic slip
2x ultimate price
2x undying evil

Sorcery (7)
2x bonfire of the damned
2x dreadbore

Land (23)
4x Blood Crypt
1x Desolate Lighthouse
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 island
1 mountain
4 stream vents
4 sulfer falls
4 watery grave

Sideboard (15)

1 Runechanter's Pike
3 augur of bolas
3 beckon appartition
3 appetite for brains
1 dreadbore
2 rakdos's return
2 slaughter games
[/deck]

[Valdarith]

I prefer Cremate in my deck for the cantrip. I want to be cycling through my deck as much as possible to get more answers.

Your deck is more dedicated control than mine, but most of the time I end up playing control anyway if I don't have a Delver start. I like Undying Evil in your deck. That's great tech in a deck running Snaps and Augur as well as Evil Twin in the side. It's even better than Unsummon in cases where we care about rebuying those creatures so we don't have to cast them next turn. I might have to give that a shot in the sideboard to bring in versus aggro.

[Valdarith]

I played more with the deck yesterday. I feel like I can win every matchup with this deck. I can't say the same with any other deck I've played since I got back into MTG last September. Won one game out of nowhere when I was down to one life with my opponent at 16. I had an unflipped Delver with a Pike equipped and my opponent had a Krenko ready to tap for a token and no cards in hand. Delver flipped at my upkeep, I had six instants and sorceries in my yard and another Pike in my hand. Play and equip Pike, swing with Delver, and cast Cremate before combat damage to hit for lethal. I can honestly say that Tribute to Hunger helped me win that game, Z. I may go to two of them.

I'm hoping I can go to FNM this Friday, and I think I'm going to bring this list:

[deck]Creatures (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
3
Invisible Stalker

Spells (25)
2 Cremate
4 Thought Scour
2 Tragic Slip
2 Unsummon
1 Devour Flesh
1 Ultimate Price
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Runechanter's Pike
2 Tribute to Hunger
1 Dissipate
2 Forbidden Alchemy

Lands (20)
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Swamp
9 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Cremate
2 Dispel
1 Dimir Charm
1 Dissipate
3 Duress
2 Evil Twin
2 Essence Scatter
2 Undying Evil[/deck]

[Valdarith]

So I took the above deck to FNM and did pretty well. The only games I lost were due to bad luck and awkward draws. When this deck hits, it hits HARD and has answers to everything. When it doesn't, it has nothing. It seems to have a lot of variance and that needs to be addressed.

Game 1 vs UWR midrange homebrew: ended up winning the first game with no Pikes after about 20 turns. Turns out hitting someone with Invisible Stalker every turn CAN win you the game. Second game I was able to get my Pikes out but he got off the infinite life combo with Boros Reckoner by playing Azorius Charm and Boros Charm. We barely got to game three before turns was called so we tied.

1-1 draw

Game 2 vs GWb humans: DESTROYED this guy. Always had an answer to his plays. I'd bait him into attacking with his Wolfbitten Captive. I'd declare no blockers. He'd use his pump ability. I'd cast Dimir Charm in response to kill him. He'd attack
with some dude. I'd declare no blockers. He'd try to put a counter on his dude with Gavony Township. I'd kill it or Unsummon in response. Game two was much of the same, with him eventually able to resolve a Resto Angel and then Obzedat. Before Obzedat triggered I used Ultimate Price on Resto and Tragic Slip on Obzedat. He scooped.

2-0 win

Game 3 vs GWUr midrange: another homebrew but it was really good. Both games I was terribly unlucky. In game one I never got the answers I was looking for and he was able to beat me down. Game two he was able to resolve some early things and force me to kill them, then he played a Loxodon Smiter. Thankfully I had sided in my Evil Twins and was waiting for this to happen, but before the end of his turn I Thought Scour myself and land two of my Pikes in the graveyard which brought laughter everywhere. I played the Evil Twin and he tried to Simic Charm his Smiter in response which I Dispelled. Next turn he Detention Sphered my Evil Twin, then replayed his Smiter. I
keep trying to come back but then he plays two more Smiters and a Thragtusk and I simply have no answers.

0-2 loss

Game 4 vs RWb control - destroyed this guy too. Both games I was able to play Delver on turn one and flip him the next turn. All I did was defend the Delver and ride to victory. He even played Rest in Peace in game two but Delver didn't care. He admitted to keeping a shady hand just to resolve it, but never drew into anything else. I was holding all sorts of answers to everything he played though so it would not have mattered.

2-0 win

Ended up getting 3rd/4th. Looking forward to tuning the deck more. I'm contemplating a white splash for Lingering Souls and Azorius Charm and maybe even a couple of Saving Grasp.

[Link]

Undying evil is seriously the nuts.

Nuwen and I have revamped her deck, its no longer tempo.

Tempo's weakness is value decks because they don't care about tempo loss. This made Junk rites a frustratingly bad match-up, and any match where a delver didn't flip reliably bad.

Edit: I don't mean to say the archetype is unviable, Valadarith, the MAIN thing Nuwen doesn't have to make the tempo version work is snapcaster mages. Too much of an investment, but they are REQUIRED to keep tempo up imo, and we just aren't willing to drop that $100. No invisible stalkers to carry pikes either, so basically we were trying to force a tempo deck with really bad cards for it.

We sat down and started from scratch, thinking "what do these colors want to do" (by colors I mean Grixis.)

We came up with a heavy control shell with lone intimidating threats backed by undying evil:
Duskmantle Seer, Olivia, and Vampire
Nighthawk. The Hawk has been a hero, he eats removal, stalls aggro, he's a king with undying evil, and he gives the deck life buffer for Duskmantle Seer.

The feature card for the control shell is: Magmaquake. We had troubles with bonfire, finding it only useful if miracled or "if played for 3 to kill dorks hardcast" Magmaquake does the same thing, scales better, hits walkers, doesn't hit our creatures and is at INSTANT speed. How many people expect an instant speed board wipe?

I know if my deck faced hers for the first time and I threw down another Flinthoof boar to swing for lethal and get met with a magma for 3, I'd be blown out.

Control shell also includes counterspells cause obv. Dissipate vs. Counterflux is debated, but dissipate is more useful.


I'll let her post the decklist and more thoughts, I'm just really excited about how her deck has been testing after the transormation. It went from a tempo deck that only won if a delver or two flipped early
and the deck she was facing was either aggro and couldn't race/have removal or horrid draws to a deck that has beaten Junk rites, UWr (Rakdos return/slaughter games is house), Jund aggro, etc.

My favorite play from today's testing was forcing a UWr flash deck to tapout to snapcaster an azorious charm to deal with an undead VNH (they couldn't afford to keep letting the lifeswings happen) to which she responded with a Rakdos Return for 4 which got rid of my Aurelia, Supreme Verdict, Negate, and something else.

[Valdarith]

I know what you mean about Snaps being so expensive. It can be a real turnoff for people wanting to play a tempo or control deck in blue. I justify my investment with the fact that Snaps see play in the eternal formats so they should hold value even after they rotate.

I disagree with your assessment of the Rites matchups, especially postboard. Between Evil Twin, all the removal spells, Cremate, Dissipate, etc this matchup is highly favorable. I'm not sure what your friend was running but if it wasn't beating Rites she was doing it wrong.

I will say I'm also considering more of a control build, but with a white splash. Commit to the long game by playing Pike, Lingering Souls, Sorin, etc. Of course if there's a white splash it seems bad not to play Revelation, so I'd have to think about exactly what I want to be doing.

[Link]

she just never had enough counterspells for all of their tusks and restos and Angel of serenity.

Their value outpaced her removal and her clock wasn't fast enough because of delver being unreliable

Nuwen is my friend her build is above.

[Valdarith]

There seems to be some misconceptions about counters here. You really shouldn't have to worry about countering those creatures. Thragtusk can be an issue with his value but Evil Twin or any Piked creature can handle him and his token easily. Then Cremate comes into play with any Rites attempts. Angel of Serenity is even more easily dealt with since the only thing she really does is attempt to get his creatures back from his yard or slow down our tempo by exiling our Augur or Snapcaster, which is a terrible thing for him to have to do since it only inverses our card advantage when we kill it.

Honestly I don't think you can properly evaluate the deck without Snapcaster Mage. It really is THAT good and its presence alone completely changes the competitiveness of the deck.

[Link]

that's why I wasn't evaluating the deck and specifically said "I'm not saying the archetype is unviable"

I think there's some gross misunderstandings here. Your deck, the deck in the op, I have no opinion on having not tested it or seen it, but Nuwen's snapcasterless and Invisible stalkerless version of it WAS underwhelming.

[Sasky]

Are the augurs necessary? I can't help but think that augurs are pretty underwhelming in a delver deck. I haven't tested this deck but I play BUG delver in modern. Just curious if there was a better creature, like deathrite shaman or something.

[Link]

we've found augurs better in the SB against aggro or a split of somekind to help the delvers flip. Augurs are also terrible against junk rites since they were essnetially just chump blockers

[Valdarith]

The Augurs are amazing in this deck. They stonewall many aggro creatures and are usually a cantrip in decks with so many spells. Against fatter creatures you can even block with him and buy him back with Unsummon.

If the deck were to move to BUG you'd definitely want Deathrite Shaman. You'd be veering from the Pike strategy but would also get a source of consistent damage and also graveyard hate in the maindeck. You'd also want to play Quirion Dryad and Abrupt Decay. It'd be a lot more dedicated tempo than the UB deck.

[Nuwen]

Re: Delver - I love this card want desperately wanted to make it work in a U/B/* tempo deck. Fate and I playtested somewhere between 150-180 games of Delver-complimentary decks against current net. Dimir charm is great, but it's no ponder. Delver packs a lot of potential energy but is horribly inconsistent. I haven't decided if Delver WCS is worth its BCS, if that makes sense.

I even started doing alter sketches in anticipation of my awesome Delver deck, but I had to scrap it all and go back to the drawing board.

Secluded Grixis
"There was an iciness, a sinking, a sickening of the heart."

[deck]Artifact
2 Rakdos Keyrune

Creatures
2 Augur of Bolas
2 Duskmantle Seer
2 Olivia Voldaren
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Enchantment
2 Homicidal
Seclusion

Instant
3 Dissipate
3 Izzet Charm
2 Magmaquake
2 Searing Spear
2 Syncopate
2 Think Twice
2 Tragic Slip
3 Undying Evil

Sorcery
2 Dreadbore
3 Pillar of Flame

Land
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfer Falls
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard
1 Augur of Bolas
1 Duskmantle Seer
2 Evil Twin
2 Cremate
1 Magmaquake
1 Searing Spear
2 Appetite for Brains
1 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Slaughter Games

Wishlist/meta-specific cards:
Duress
Devour Flesh & Tribute to Hunger
Ral Zarek ???
Master of Cruelties ??[/deck]

Sideboard plan:

RWU
- dreadbore, pillars, augurs, magmaquake
+ rakdos's return, slaughter games, cremate, duskmantle seer

Play a strong tempo game and always make sure you are forcing decisions when possible. Cremate nukes snapcaster's immense value at 1-1 self-replacing card trade, which can be a strong tempo play. You can't get Azorius Charmed twice or you're going to be dead in the water to their own
tempo plays.

Aggro
- think twice, rakdos keyrunes, duskmantle seer
+ searing spear, augur of bolas, magmaquake

Removal, undying evil makes augur card advantage, board wipe. Don't scoop to nut draws until you're actually dead because this deck's stabilization power is awesome.

Junk Rites
- augur of bolas, pillar of flame, searing spear
+ evil twin, cremate, duskmantle seer, appetite for brains

Save exile effects for Unburial Rites to disrupt combo, play carefully as value cards in their hand require a lot of finesse to answer efficiently. Izzet Charm does a lot in this matchup, be happy to see it.

Esper Control
- magmaquake, searing spear, tragic slip
+ slaughter games, rakdos's return, augur of bolas

Slaughter Games Spinx's and put the pressure on as early as possible. You want to see removal and boardwipe hitting nighthawks/keyrunes (and remember undying evil answers Supreme Verdict 1-1 when one creature is on the field).

Bant Enchantments
Save magmaquake for hand over-
extension. Syncopate and Izzet Charm are the most valuable cards in your deck.

Naya Midrange
Appetite, counterspell, and respect open 4 mana when you play dreadbore at sorcery speed. You need to play a much longer control game here than other midrange matchups like Jund. Protect your own threats as priority and eventually you'll beat their value combinations.

[Valdarith]

I've been thinking about Esper tempo and am considering something along these lines:

[deck]Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (27)
3 Unsummon
1 Saving Grasp
2 Tragic Slip
4 Azorius Charm
2 Dimir Charm
2 Negate
3 Runechanter's Pike
2 Tribute to Hunger
3 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Lingering Souls

Lands (22)
4 Watery Grave
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Drowned Catacomb
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Island[/deck]

Not sure about the mana base. 10 sources of white and black and 18 blue sources. Lots of shocks though. That said, Azorius Charm can always be Snapped for lifelink.

Particularly curious in your thoughts, Z. I feel like this version has more chances for tempo openings but can still play the control role effectively

[Calamity]

This deck seems cool, I'll try testing it when i get the cards. It'll be a nice change of pace from mono red

[zemanjaski]

that's why I wasn't evaluating the deck and specifically said "I'm not saying the archetype is unviable"

I think there's some gross misunderstandings here. Your deck, the deck in the op, I have no opinion on having not tested it or seen it, but Nuwen's snapcasterless and Invisible stalkerless version of it WAS underwhelming.

I don't understand the point of commenting then?

Reading a lot of your comments Fate, I don't think you fully grasp the archetype and it seems like you're not using counters on the right targets ~ hence 'never having enough'.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah I am leaning towards the white splash as well Valdarith; I don't think I would 3 x Unsummon, but otherwise I like the list. The white splash opens up a lot of sideboard options, gives you Azorius Charm etc. In particular, being able to bring in Sorin post-board is probably a big game.

[Valdarith]

Yeah I am leaning towards the white splash as well Valdarith; I don't think I would 3 x Unsummon, but otherwise I like the list. The white splash opens up a lot of sideboard options, gives you Azorius Charm etc. In particular, being able to bring in Sorin post-board is probably a big game.

You're probably right about Unsummon since I'm already playing four Azorius Charm. Might need to take that out for a third Dimir Charm or a one-of Ultimate Price.

I was also thinking of one or two Sorin in the side for control and reanimator. Seems few decks have ways to deal with him, but I feel like I want something to deal with Detention Sphere besides counters. It felt really shitty getting my Evil Twin sphered in one of my losses last week.

[zemanjaski]

Detention is annoying, but it doesn't do anything really powerful against this deck ~ most of your cards cost 2 or less or are 2-for-1s so you're not really losing any value. I wouldn't worry about it honestly.

[rcwraspy]

The little gremlin chuckling at bad ideas part of me wants to throw in a miser's copy of Immortal Servitude in that Esper list.

[Valdarith]

The little gremlin chuckling at bad ideas part of me wants to throw in a miser's copy of Immortal Servitude in that Esper list.

It's a tarp!

[Link]

that's why I wasn't evaluating the deck and specifically said "I'm not saying the archetype is unviable"

I think there's some gross misunderstandings here. Your deck, the deck in the op, I have no opinion on having not tested it or seen it, but Nuwen's snapcasterless and Invisible stalkerless version of it WAS underwhelming.

I don't understand the point of commenting then?

Reading a lot of your comments Fate, I don't think you fully grasp the archetype and it seems like you're not using counters on the right targets ~ hence 'never having enough'.[/
quote]

That's more than entirely possible. As this kind of deck is definitely not something I understand or play.

The point of my comment was more along the lines of "well we don't have the cards for this specific snapcaster+IS+Pike archetype, so here's a different UBx approach we're going to try."

Which is probably best suited for another thread but since we had already started here I figured might as well go with some progression. It still maintains some big tempo plays so I figure its at home here.

[zemanjaski]

Going to be messing around with UR variants in the next few days, just to try some different ideas. Ill let you know what I find.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Izzet Staticaster
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Runechanter's Pike

3 Brimstone Volley
4 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
2 Izzet Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Thought Scour

3 Cavern of Souls
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
7 Island
3 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Dispel
1 Dissipate
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Tormod's Crypt[/deck]

Then plus 3 planeswalkers in the board for control, but I'm not sure which ones in what mix. It may be that you just want JaoT as a draw engine; Ral is nice as extra burn but otherwise doesn't do much for you. Tamiyo or JMA are worth considering.

[photodyer]

Just a thought; doesn't Ral have synergy with Staticaster that would allow you to deal with x/2's? It seems like the pseudo-Tamiyo effect along with untapping Staticaster could be relevant.

[zemanjaski]

I think the deck is good enough at killing little guys; it's grinding out control decks that actually worries me.

[photodyer]

Roger on PW for contro MU only. Am I assuming correctly that Psychic Strike should be Psychic Spiral? You can't cast Strike and wouldn't want to.

[zemanjaski]

Yes, erroneous transcription on my behalf.

[RedNihilist]

Also: 5 Pillars? (3+2)

[Link]

When do you bring in Desolate Lighthouse? Against any deck that you go into topdeck mode with I think , but which match-ups do you find that happens and which happens is it irrelevant?

[rcwraspy]

Z, what are your thoughts on Guttersnipe in a UR tempo shell?

[Valdarith]

[deck]
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Izzet Staticaster
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Runechanter's Pike

3 Brimstone Volley
4 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
2 Izzet Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Thought Scour

3 Cavern of Souls
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
7 Island
3 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Dispel
1 Dissipate
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Tormod's Crypt[/deck]

Then plus 3 planeswalkers in the board for control, but I'm not sure which ones in what mix. It may be that you just want JaoT as a draw engine; Ral is nice as extra burn but otherwise doesn't do much for you. Tamiyo or JMA are worth considering.

Interesting that
you posted this as I've also been thinking of a counterburn variant. I agree with the following analysis that control matchups are concerning. Most of the decks in my meta are control and reanimator so this deck isn't viable for me right now.

Also, anyone running Desperate Ravings gets style points in my book. I've always enjoyed casting that card despite the people in my local meta that refuse to admit that it is good.

[Link]

Testing Frostburn weirds over Augurs right now.

Undying evil with him is the nuts against aggro

Also he doesn't put olivias and nighthawks at the bottom of your library

[Nuwen]

Desperate Ravings is an awesome card in a Pike deck. Let us know how your testing goes.

I've tried to make Guttersnipe work in a bunch of shells. As a card, I think his trigger effect is over-budgeted and he needs to be a 2/3 for 3 CMC. I probably wouldn't play him without Undying Evil and stronger wincons.

Frostburn Weird is working so far. Going to stick him in a control environment and see if he brings early pressure where Augur couldn't.

[Calamity]

Do you guys think any of the new fuse cards could work well in this deck, like Far // Away or Turn // Burn for a UR or UBR build?

[LP, of the Fires]

The best walker for this style of deck would be JMA. When I was running Raka flash, he was my go to answer for the control matchup. You bleed your opponent of counters, then cast jace and protect him for X turns. Also, in the control matchup, it's often correct to mill them with thought scour since the non-zero chance of milling your jace versus feeding them a think twice is actually relevant.