[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[Nuwen]

Your fav of either Dos Rakis or Gruul aggro. I enjoy Dos Rakis because the deck's role changes from matchup to matchup (transformational sideboard is what you guys call it?), it runs Rakdos' Return, and fatty dragons are cool.

G/B control will get knocked out by Bant control or RWU; you can't rely on riding creature-based decks through the tournament. Naya Blitz can nutz through a tournament environment, but the ride will be less interesting and more RNG.

[LP, of the Fires]

Depending on how well you can play blitz, I would consider that, before settling on R/G agro. While I'd call gruul the better deck, I think the decision's a lot closer then it seems since there is actually a fair amount of play to blitz and you have the highest win percentage on the play.

[DroppinSuga]

I don't think you can go wrong with Dos Rakis or Gruul Aggro, but due to some bad luck with Rakis, I would choose Gruul.

rcw, what's your Gruul list look like?

[rcwraspy]

I don't think you can go wrong with Dos Rakis or Gruul Aggro, but due to some bad luck with Rakis, I would choose Gruul.

rcw, what's your Gruul list look like?

Currently:
[deck]
Creatures - 34
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Hellrider

Instants/Sorceries - 6
4 Searing Spear
2 Pillar of Flame

Land - 20
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Temple Garden
10 Mountain

Sideboard - 15
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Volcanic Strength
4 Ash Zealot
3 Domri Rade
3 Pyreheart Wolf
[/deck]

I'd probably make some SB changes and maybe even fiddle around with whether Firefist Striker belongs in the 75 at all at right
now. I'd also consider going the Madcap Skills path. Ash will likely come out of the board and either take Firefist's place or not be in the 75 at all to free up room for additional SB cards, including Flames of the Firebrand.

[LP, of the Fires]

Indecision rules the day. Have a 5k on sunday. Don't want to play R/G as I don't want to play tons of mirror matches and the last Big event I went to had an agro mirror match in the finals so I'm thinking I want something to beat red decks.

My options are Dega midrange and Reid Duke Jund. Dega has oodles of powerful cards, but can be somewhat inconsistent do to playing 27 mana sources and no card filter BUT you get 4 warleaders helix, and every card that costs 5 or more wins the game. Other downside is your game one against control is...sketch.

Reid Duke Jund has zero bad matchups, and I have the benefit of having a direct contact to Reid so I can pick his brain a bit about the deck. Downside? Need to practice the Jund mirror a lot.

R/G agro. Might still be a fine choice. We have RANGER'S GUILE TECH, and I have by far the most experience with the deck. Downside? Expecting to play the mirror 4ish times in swiss and
potentially top 8 and at my last event I was 1/1 in the mirror, 2/1 if you count naya blitz.

Suggestions?

[rcwraspy]

If you're comfortable with the Jund list and have a decent amount of testing under your belt with it, I'd go with that. Especially if you can pick Reid Duke's brain.

Heck, I'm even considering sleeving it up, but I have 0 time with it. The only thing is that Golgari Control SORT OF plays similarly. But that's not nearly a good enough excuse for me to head to a tournament with it.

[rcwraspy]

Did everybody see this guy? : http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1372652478

Kalonian Hydra 3GG

Creature - Hydra
Trample
Kalonian Hydra enters the battlefield with four +1/+1 counters on it.
Whenever Kalonian Hydra attacks, double the number of +1/+1 counters on each creature you control.


T4 Exava, T5 this guy, swing with a 4/4 (edit: 5/5 since her counters double from Hydra) first strike and an 8/8 trample?

[photodyer]

LK, I am a believer in Jund after watching Reid pilot it last weekend, and I know you have the chops to do well with it. The caveats IMO are that which you already know...Reid's success last weekend is going to put a significant non-zero percentage of people on the deck because it won in Miami, and maybe more significantly is going to drive a significant non-zero number of thinking players to choose and tune decks to play against Jund. Thus, as you surmised, you can expect to see a lot of mirror matches, but also a lot of Game 2's targeted to beat you.

That being said, if you have an open avenue to chat with the wascally wabbit himself, I would ask him directly about his read on the likely impact of his win before locking in your decision. My bet is on Jund still being your best overall option, but possibly tuned to a different "pitch" than what Duke was rocking last weekend.

As to
Gruul, I have to agree with the points Ari Lax made in his latest article over on SCG...Rx Aggro has to play pretty much a perfect game to survive in this meta. Midrange has such a remarkable creature base that if it manages to turn the corner, red aggro's chances of winning tank hard. You are a pilot that knows how to eek all the mileage that can be pulled from Rx aggro, and you know Gruul, but you know in your heart that Gruul is not positioned well and thus are questioning it. Here's a quote from Ari--

"- Red aggro takes a very specific metagame to be good. You need Bant Hexproof to be virtually hated out and then another layer of midrange mirror inbreeding and then to call that U/W/R will be misbuilt or not matter and then accept jamming into Jund every fourth round."

You're a thinking man, LK...I think you already know the answer here, my clansman.

@ wraspy - I posted about the hydra on the previous page of the thread...stupid-powerful interactions with
the Resonator as well.

[rcwraspy]

@ wraspy - I posted about the hydra on the previous page of the thread...stupid-powerful interactions with the Resonator as well.

So that's 3 cards just off the top of our heads that interact very well with the new mythic hydra:

- Resonator
- Exava
- Oggre Battledriver

If you're relying on a 2-card synergy, it's probably weak. But here you have options. Once Theros hits and the 4 is freed, Battledriver + Exava give much better odds for a hasted Hydra.

Seems decent. Who knows.

I think it's pre-ordering at $19.99 right now.

[photodyer]

The hydra is totally nuts in an Evolve list as well...that EACH CREATURE clause makes it pretty much the next Craterhoof.

However, Timmy dreams aside, the hydra is just as weak as every other counter-based strategy to U/W; Verdict is likely to come down the turn before the hydra can blast through on curve, and Unsummon-type effects wreck the party big time. No question the hydra is a massive example of power creep, but counter-based plans are fragile.

[Kazekirimaru]

Witchstalker
3/3
Hexproof
Whenever an opponent plays a blue or black spell during your turn, put a +1/+1 counter on Witchstalker.

I'm liking all the control hate lately.

[Link]

far and away ironically ruining his day most times ;P

[Kazekirimaru]

I forgot the Hexproof part.

[Link]

Ari is right that Gruul matches up pretty badly against UWr which also placed well in the GP.

But with Ranger's guile tech I believe. BELIEVE.

but I don't know what he's on about with bant hexproof. That was one of my favorite MUs when it was popular. 2 skullcracks in the side and you're good to go.

They are as durdly as it gets with decks, don't play pillar of flame, have greedy as shit mana base.... I rather play them than Junk rites any day of the week.


iunno LK, Jund just seems like a deck that would't take advantage of the skills you have. Jund's math involves flippign cards over from the top (the first round 1 lost in the WPN tourny was to a topdecked liliana against my VS+GCR with lethal T_T.)

R/g is true to your heart, your clan, and your superior math skills. Also no one would expect it after Ari' Lax's quote, in which he undercut R/g's strength just to mindgame the meta and let it not get
hated out.

[DroppinSuga]

See my thing is that I'm a true red player. I have never played a deck that didn't include a heavy load of red cards. I pretty much only play Aggro as well. I don't mind going midrange, but I have never played a control deck in my life.

[Kazekirimaru]

Control is nice if you like not having friends.

[DroppinSuga]

Control is nice if you like not having friends.

Half the kids at my LGS play control. We've had 16 man FNM's go for 5 hours because of them.

[Sasky]

I'd play mending touch over Ranger's guile.

[Sasky]

I don't see anything wrong with control. The problem is that some control players think that they are entitled to play slowly and when they lose they blame it on luck.

The best way to lose friends is to play a prison deck or a masturbatory decks like eggs.

[Link]

Mending touch doesn't stop terminus or azorius charm or turn/burn or far/away or warleader's helix or.................they really arent' comparable at all. Want to blood rush into spear mana? GUILES GOT YO BACK

[Valdarith]

Mending touch doesn't stop terminus or azorius charm or turn/burn or far/away or warleader's helix or.................they really arent' comparable at all. Want to blood rush into spear mana? GUILES GOT YO BACK

Mending touch also removes your creature from combat. It's a terrible card to run


That said, neither card stops Terminus. Nothing does.

[DroppinSuga]

Where the hell has redthirst been?

[Sasky]

It stops supreme verdict and B-acts.

Amongst the cards you mentioned, terminus isn't stopped by ranger's guile. Mending touch stops turn//burn just fine, and it also stops warleader's helix from killing your guy. It also stops the away portion of far//away.

[hamfactorial]

Mending touch doesn't stop terminus or azorius charm or turn/burn or far/away or warleader's helix or.................they really arent' comparable at all. Want to blood rush into spear mana? GUILES GOT YO BACK

Mending touch also removes your creature from combat. It's a terrible card to run


That said, neither card stops Terminus. Nothing does.

Regeneration doesn't remove a creature from combat until it takes lethal damage (or is affected by a spell or ability that would destroy it) and would otherwise go to the graveyard as a state-based action. Once that
happens, the regeneration shield removes all damage, taps the creatures and then removes it from combat as a replacement effect.

In other words, Mending Touch is compatible with attacking and blocking in the way that you want, though I see the anti-synergy between a Bloodrush ability and the regeneration clause.

[photodyer]

iunno LK, Jund just seems like a deck that would't take advantage of the skills you have. Jund's math involves flippign cards over from the top (the first round 1 lost in the WPN tourny was to a topdecked liliana against my VS+GCR with lethal T_T.)

R/g is true to your heart, your clan, and your superior math skills. Also no one would expect it after Ari' Lax's quote, in which he undercut R/g's strength just to mindgame the meta and let it not get hated out.

Fate, I know you are true to your deck...and I can respect that...but sometimes your assertions about it require mental acrobatics beyond my ken. I just pulled a one-liner out of Ari's article that spoke to LK's concerns; you should really go read the whole thing, because he actually runs
down at length the pro's and con's of the Rx aggro strategy in the meta and made some very level statements. For the life of me, I cannot take away anything from it that suggests that he was playing a "mindgame" to benefit Gruul. Yes, Gruul can hit the ground running and kill pretty much any deck in the format on-curve. But the observation he makes--which is supported by the decklists that are ascendant--is that if Rx misses its window and lets the dominant midrange decks hit critical mana, it is toast. Pillars and spears cannot 1-for-1 most of the relevant 5-mana creatures in the format, and even mortars falls short of many of them. Bottom line, if Jund can bring in Olivia protected, or Junk AoS...or Tusk loops...or Hellkites...Gruul is on its back foot bad more often than not.

And quite honestly, this is as it should be. This late in the cycle in a multicolored set, the concentration of high-impact midrange creatures should by all rights be giving aggro a hard time, just as we are
dominant in the early part of a set. Junk Crats is something of an exception because of the fact that it has the ability to scale up its creatures in some situations, but top-decking 2-drops when your opponent is playing 5-drops is simply not a winning proposition.

And as to the comment about Jund math being "flip card, play card", I respect that about as much as the noodleheads who claim that all we do in red is "turn guys sideways". If you really believe that Jund is a thoughtless deck, I suggest you go watch the round 11 battle between Duke and Nelson from Miami; if you can come out of that saying that Duke is just flipping cards, more power to you. Yes, the deck does topdeck well--that's the point of playing a Farseek deck--but it is not on autopilot at that level of play. I'm still in awe of watching Duke in another match hit his own creature with Tragic Slip to go under the Selesnya Charm that was targeting it...that is chess-level Magic. Fight for your deck and be proud,
man, but don't try to elevate yourself by spitting on the next guy. Red mages are above that crap...we burn the opposition to cinders, but we show respect where it is due.

[Link]

Ah Photo... in the back of my mind I know I'm always exaggerating things, and I try to keep it as facetious as possible, but when you put it like that I'm reminded how ignorant I can come across

My apologies for oversimplification... its just the Gruul way.

Yes, Gruul is easily fought in the current meta. Usually it just takes two cards to beat us. Snapcaster Mage and Pillar. There goes our gas. Thragtusk and Resto angel, there goes our reach. Voice of resurgence and reckoner... get 4 for 2'd.

My apologies to Jund players as well, I did happen to watch Nelson and Duke go at it in the top 8, and definitely hats off to those men.

[Link]

It stops supreme verdict and B-acts.

Amongst the cards you mentioned, terminus isn't stopped by ranger's guile. Mending touch stops turn//burn just fine, and it also stops warleader's helix from killing your guy. It also stops the away portion of far//away.

verdicts and blast acts haven't really been a problem for Gruul anyway.


Let me rephrase: Ranger's Guile preserves tempo and facilitates attacking whereas mending touch doesn't, that's why I like it. Warleader's helix? How about it fizzles, you DONT gain 4 life, and you LOSE 1 more life.

Same with azo charm. etc. How does it stop the away side? Regeneration fields don't stop sacrifice effects.

Getting your guy removed from combat is like they said, anti-synergy with blood rush and
trying to be in combat killin dudes.

Mending touch was for Bant Hexproof that has inevitability if they can keep their suited up guy alive from wipes.

[Sasky]

Makes sense.

[photodyer]

Ah Photo... in the back of my mind I know I'm always exaggerating things, and I try to keep it as facetious as possible, but when you put it like that I'm reminded how ignorant I can come across

My apologies for oversimplification... its just the Gruul way.

Yes, Gruul is easily fought in the current meta. Usually it just takes two cards to beat us. Snapcaster Mage and Pillar. There goes our gas. Thragtusk and Resto angel, there goes our reach. Voice of resurgence and reckoner... get 4 for 2'd.

My apologies to Jund players as well, I did happen to watch Nelson and Duke go at it in the top 8, and definitely hats off to those men.

No worries, brother...I was just in the
mood to pontificate a bit and was getting some things straight in my own head as well about this meta. I love Dos Rakis and Zombies both, and it's really chafed my unmentionables that neither has been consistently competitive for the past few months. BTE, GCR, boar and reasonable mana have made Gruul the top "honest" red aggro deck in the format, but the "big" curve decks have really narrowed the window of opportunity to carve out wins. M14 is bringing us tools for other red strategies, but the and Reanimator aren't losing any ground...thus the battle will still be uphill most likely until rotation.

[Alex]

Why are daddy and daddy fighting?

Please not the belt again.

[hamfactorial]

Why are daddy and daddy fighting?

Because you touch yourself at night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W23LKD9Z1hw

[Calamity]

Its not that Jund mid range is skill less, at that level of magic everything is hard because everyone is so good. At most levels of play (especially from the point of view of a R/x aggro player) the deck seems like they just play cards and win

[zemanjaski]

Yeah...no. The lines of play for a Jund deck are very, very easy. Are the small edges that can be gained by better players? Yes. But by and large, the power level of the cards and simplicity of the strategy compensate very strongly for any disparity in skill.

[windstrider]

Pretty Hydra. Scary Hydra.
Hydra meet Doom Blade or Ultimate Price.
Sad Hydra. Dead Hydra.

It'll be a monster in limited, but I'm thinking it won't be that much of a force in constructed.

[rcwraspy]

Hydra meet Doom Blade or Ultimate Price.

Can't the same be said for any non-black or mono-colored creature any deck runs, minus hexproof or Aetherling with a blue up?

[windstrider]

Hydra meet Doom Blade or Ultimate Price.

Can't the same be said for any non-black or mono-colored creature any deck runs, minus hexproof or Aetherling with a blue up?

Oh, absolutely. It's a not-so-subtle reference to the name of our site.

This Hydra is a very nifty monster that will nevertheless see only fringe constructed play since it doesn't do enough the turn it comes down. Part of that reason is the premium removal running around in the format.

[rcwraspy]

Hydra meet Doom Blade or Ultimate Price.

Can't the same be said for any non-black or mono-colored creature any deck runs, minus hexproof or Aetherling with a blue up?

Oh, absolutely. It's a not-so-subtle reference to the name of our site.

This Hydra is a very nifty monster that will nevertheless see only fringe constructed
play since it doesn't do enough the turn it comes down. Part of that reason is the premium removal running around in the format.

We obviously don't have the full M14 spoiler or any of the Theros cards yet, but once INN rotates, how many value ETB creatures will we have? I have a feeling we'll need to be ok with a good number of creatures that don't give value until we untap with them.

On a different note, they just spoiled a cool Merfolk that's going into my Legacy SB pretty much immediately.

Tidebinder Mage UU
Creature - Merfolk Wizard (R)

When Tidebinder Mage enters the battlefield, tap target red or green creature an opponent controls. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step for as long as you control Tidebinder Mage.

2/2

Can shut down a 'goyf, DRS, etc., can grow from the lords you're already playing, and can either cause your opponent to waste removal on it or can be protected by your permission suite. I like it.

This is the 3rd
of what looks to be a rare hate cycle in M14.

White gets Fiendslayer Paladin
Green gets Witchstalker
Blue gets Tidebinder Mage

I'm really excited to see what red and black get.

[DroppinSuga]

Red won't get one. That's how Wizards rolls.

[Valdarith]

Mending touch doesn't stop terminus or azorius charm or turn/burn or far/away or warleader's helix or.................they really arent' comparable at all. Want to blood rush into spear mana? GUILES GOT YO BACK

Mending touch also removes your creature from combat. It's a terrible card to run


That said, neither card stops Terminus. Nothing does.

Regeneration doesn't remove a creature from
combat until it takes lethal damage (or is affected by a spell or ability that would destroy it) and would otherwise go to the graveyard as a state-based action. Once that happens, the regeneration shield removes all damage, taps the creatures and then removes it from combat as a replacement effect.

In other words, Mending Touch is compatible with attacking and blocking in the way that you want, though I see the anti-synergy between a Bloodrush ability and the regeneration clause.

I understand how regeneration works. The problem here is that if you Bloodrush your guy and he eats burn or black removal in response, you've just 2-for-1d yourself with Mending Touch (which you've conceeded). Ranger's Guile avoids this entirely which is one of the reasons it's a better card in Gruul. The fact that it also works around Unsummon effects makes it pretty obvious which one is better to play.

[Christen]

Looks like everyone is hoping for that card.