[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[LP, of the Fires]

If you don't like standard...don't play standard. We talk about a lot more besides magic. Don't do something you don't enjoy just to stay "current".

[Kazekirimaru]

I know. I guess I just can't help but keep my hands in everything. I hate the feeling of missing out on things.

[hamfactorial]

I feel odd even when I'm not discussing magic. You'll get used to and learn to love it.

[Khaospawn]

Kaze, you don't have to keep up with Standard for the sake of the Clan. As long as you pay homage to redthirst's dick, the world will still burn.

[Jack]

So, bringing the discussion back to Magic, my LGS has been having this tournament, called Guild Wars, where everyone builds a Legacy legal deck, but only in the 2 colors of your chosen guild, which you must stick with for the whole tournament. Your cards are also limited to your guild's color identity. This means that there are no Tier 1 decks in this tournament, although there are some very powerful ones, as well as some very interesting combo lists. You're on a team with members of your same guild, and you you can play anytime during store hours, usually just between rounds. It goes until July, and the guild with the highest win percentage at the end splits a box. I went Gruul, and just put together this cheap standard fare aggro deck.
[deck]Guild Wars
Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Other Spells
4 Rancor
4 Lightning
Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
2 Gruul Charm
2 Colossal Might

Land

4 Copperline Gorge
9 Forest
7 Mountain[/deck]
Wow, haven't actually played this in a month, and just typing up a list, I can already see some problems.

However, now I have Stomping Grounds and Rootbound Crags. This gives the deck much more potential. I don't think it is right to run 12 duals, and I think its better to run shocks/fastlands than shocks/checklands , but I don't know for sure. The only disadvantage here is when you draw the Gorge T4 when any other land would let you curve into BBE. Did anyone already crunch the numbers and find an exact answer?

However, with Stomping Grounds, the appeal of running Kird Ape and Flinthoof Boar increases. Is it worth it to change the deck to include them?
To be honest, I really don't know what I'm doing here. I am not a skilled deck builder. I made this in a 20-30 post discussion with -spooky- on MTGS a few months ago, and haven't changed it much since then. I figured the best
thing I could do is present it to a group of talented Magic players.

[hamfactorial]

I think 4 Stomping Grounds 4 Copperline Gorge is your ticket in a low land aggro deck. The buddy lands and fastlands have the same drawback with respect to Kird Ape, so I recommend going with the early game advantaged land.

If you curve out to turn 4 and draw a Gorge, you have many 1-3 mana plays. If you toss down a Rootbound Crag on turn 1, you have none.

[zemanjaski]

Are any of the following possible for you?
- fetches
- BTE
- kird ape
- grim lavamancer
- tarmogoyf
- searing blaze

They're all really good in this archetype.

[Jack]

Yeah, I'm not looking to spend much money, so fetches are out, making lavamancer less effective as well as searing blaze, though I might still add blaze, if for no other reason than to use my new textless playest . The cards I feel could work are Kird Ape and Flinthoof Boar, and maybe BTE, though the deck doesn't seem built around it like Standard Gruul is.

[zemanjaski]

There is a 'modern' version of the this archetype with Experiment One, trying to run BTE into Kird Ape or Tarmo or Boar for the turn 2 3/3 etc;

FWIW Boar is almost certainly an upgrade over Ramgang.

[Khaospawn]

Ramgang....giggity.

[Jack]

Looking at it, I'm not so sure I should be playing Kird Ape, as his inclusion (probably for Skyshroud Elite, if I did it) would mean that I'd want to give myself a few more red sources, meaning that I'd be playing 10 or less forests to make Kird Ape work. Strangleroot, while fantastic with Rancor, has been giving me problems given my mana base. Smartest thing to do seems to be - Skyshroud, Strangleroot and Ram-Gang; + E1, BTE and Boar. Also, Forked Bolt seems to be one of the weaker spells in the deck, and I'm sure I have a better option in this large card pool. Maybe I should just cut it for more creatures.

[zemanjaski]

Chain Lightning is fine

[Jack]

Chain Lightning is $15

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, I don't pay for cards. Reality and I are rarely bedfellows.

[Alex]

Chain Lightning is $15

Arc Trail isn't quite up there with Chain Lightning, but it does what you want Forked Bolt to do.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]
4 Blood Artist
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Lotleth Troll
2 Maw of the Obzedat
4 Voice of Resurgence

3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped

3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

4 Lingering Souls
4 Tragic Slip

1 Gavony Township
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Woodland Cemetery

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Rootborn Defences
3 Sin Collector
3 Unflinching Courage[/deck]

The Garruk / Sorin split might be worth looking at, and 2 Townships might just be better than 1 Township and 1 Vault. Township is busted.

[zemanjaski]

Township lets Blood Artist attack, which makes the card not awful

[Helios]

Yeah Kaze, if you're only playing standard to keep up here, don't. That's what I was doing for a while. Legacy is hella fun. And if you want to get into EDH, let me know. I have tons of random lists for off-the-wall generals.

@freedom: Get Chain Lightnings, build mono red? You can get a set for $40 on tcgplayer. The entire fetchless red list isn't more than $140, and you probably have most of it. Unless there are lots of fast combo, you oughta be in good shape. Burn is great against "fair" decks.


Got to playtest Burn a bunch in the last few hours. Went about 60/40 against Metalworker w/Posts; the game basically came down to whether or not he had Trinisphere. If he didn't, I'm just always faster. Played BUG with no mainboard counterspells (yeah, WTF?), and did really well. He got a few games because I didn't quite have enough gas, but even a mull to 5 with 3 lands and 2 Lava Spikes almost one. BUG with
no counters feels like a really good match-up. Played the below list, with the changes listed. Never hurt for Lavamancer fuel, despite no fetches.

[TubeHunter]

Yeah Kaze, if you're only playing standard to keep up here, don't. That's what I was doing for a while. Legacy is hella fun. And if you want to get into EDH, let me know. I have tons of random lists for off-the-wall generals.

@freedom: Get Chain Lightnings, build mono red? You can get a set for $40 on tcgplayer. The entire fetchless red list isn't more than $140, and you probably have most of it. Unless there are lots of fast combo, you oughta be in good shape. Burn is great against "fair" decks.


Got to playtest Burn a bunch in the last few hours. Went about 60/40 against Metalworker w/Posts; the game basically came down to whether or not he had Trinisphere. If he didn't, I'm just always faster. Played BUG with no mainboard counterspells (yeah, WTF?), and did really well. He got a few games because I didn't quite have enough gas, but even a mull to 5 with 3 lands and 2
Lava Spikes almost one. BUG with no counters feels like a really good match-up. Played the below list, with the changes listed. Never hurt for Lavamancer fuel, despite no fetches.

Was it shardless BUG? if so, then they rarely have any counterspells, due to the fact that they are very shitty to cascade into. Most only run the obligatory Forces, and sometimes not even a full playset of them. When I was playing with BUG, I only ran 3 Force main and 1 side as my only Counters. If it isn't shardless, then I agree, WTF?

[Lightning_Dolt]

Yeah Kaze, if you're only playing standard to keep up here, don't. That's what I was doing for a while. Legacy is hella fun. And if you want to get into EDH, let me know. I have tons of random lists for off-the-wall generals.

@freedom: Get Chain Lightnings, build mono red? You can get a set for $40 on tcgplayer. The entire fetchless red list isn't more than $140, and you probably have most of it. Unless there are lots of fast combo, you oughta be in good shape. Burn is great against "fair" decks.


Got to playtest Burn a bunch in the last few hours. Went about 60/40 against Metalworker w/Posts; the game basically came down to whether or not he had Trinisphere. If he didn't, I'm just always faster. Played BUG with no mainboard counterspells (
yeah, WTF?), and did really well. He got a few games because I didn't quite have enough gas, but even a mull to 5 with 3 lands and 2 Lava Spikes almost one. BUG with no counters feels like a really good match-up. Played the below list, with the changes listed. Never hurt for Lavamancer fuel, despite no fetches.

I got 4x foil Chain Lightning for $35 USD on eBay.

[photodyer]

@zeman - very like the Act 3 synergies...just can't swallow the cost of a playset of Voice (didn't see a one in the product we opened).

For anyone with some spare money and nothing better to spend it on--Chris Rahn has the original oils of the MM versions of Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow up for sale on ebay. Each original is up to $1500 after multiple bids, and the auctions will be going for ~9 more days. Methinks I will have to settle for getting the new cards and getting them signed to go with the set of SOM swords he signed for us as Spectrum.

[zemanjaski]

I don't think I could afford to play paper magic if I actually had to. At least on MTGO you can quickly go infinite and rack up value; much harder to build a collection quickly IRL.

[TubeHunter]

PROTIP: Never change your deck. Been playing with my Mono-red since December.

Although, I probably am going to be super fucked when rotation hits.( Don't have a super collection.) Only real value cards are some legacy stuff that I'm not trading.

[Alex]

I don't think I could afford to play paper magic if I actually had to. At least on MTGO you can quickly go infinite and rack up value; much harder to build a collection quickly IRL.

Really? I found the inverse to be true when I tried to get into MTGO. But that's probably since I was already so invested into paper Magic.

[Jack]

Ooh, that new art looks fantastic!

[Link]

I think if you haven't invested in either, MTGO is the way to go since if you're good you can get "store" credit any damn time you please.

But if you're already invested in one, the barrier of entry to the other feels incredibly high and from paper to online even higher (value wise, since its virtual cards).

Stay online kids, let us old fools die with our worthless paper in hand

[TubeHunter]

Anyone that is better at card evaluation see anything worthwhile in the future for Firmane Avenger?

[Jack]

PROTIP: Never change your deck. Been playing with my Mono-red since December.

Although, I probably am going to be super fucked when rotation hits.( Don't have a super collection.) Only real value cards are some legacy stuff that I'm not trading.

I was mono-red since October, only taking a 2 month break with Infect before that. Now, I'm Gruul. Just got Stomping Grounds in the mail today.
When rotation hits, if it seems like you won't be able to continue with your Standard deck, play Modern

[Alex]

Anyone that is better at card evaluation see anything worthwhile in the future for Firmane Avenger?

Post rotation it will be one of the best cards in the format unless Lightning Bolt or Thunderbolt randomly get reprinted.

[TubeHunter]

Sounds good. I'll hold on to my promos then.

[Kazekirimaru]

Yeah Kaze, if you're only playing standard to keep up here, don't. That's what I was doing for a while. Legacy is hella fun. And if you want to get into EDH, let me know. I have tons of random lists for off-the-wall generals.

I see. Well, I am in pretty much every other format. And I'm actually just starting to break into EDH. My Jhoira of the Ghitu deck is almost complete. ^^

PROTIP: Never change your deck. Been playing with my Mono-red since December.

I wish I could do that. It takes me about two or three months before I get bored of a deck.

[Helios]

@Alex: Is it possible to "go infinite" in paper without being a heartless tradeshark?

I got 4x foil Chain Lightning for $35 USD on eBay.

Exactly. And I mean, it isn't like they're going to reprint it again anytime soon. So they're a fine investment.

[zemanjaski]

I don't think I could afford to play paper magic if I actually had to. At least on MTGO you can quickly go infinite and rack up value; much harder to build a collection quickly IRL.

Really? I found the inverse to be true when I tried to get into MTGO. But that's probably since I was already so invested into paper Magic.

I can sometimes grind about $100/day on MTGO (4 x DEs). I can't possibly do that IRL; maybe it is different in the USA with the greater saturation of players? But yeah ~ its good money.

[zemanjaski]

Anyone that is better at card evaluation see anything worthwhile in the future for Firmane Avenger?

I think Boros Aggro will be the aggro deck du jour post rotation; Firemane fits into that strategy very nicely (although who knows what Theros will bring). I honestly think Legion's Initiative is going to be a pillar of the archetype, so any card that gets both sides of the anthem (turning it into an OP Honour of the Pure) needs to be re-examined.

[photodyer]

The paper/online debacle really is a quandary, and WotC has been trying to come up with a "happy medium" for a while now. The duplicative expense is a significant impediment to many, and regrettably there's no "fix" for it in the foreseeable future.

MtGO absolutely makes sense if you have the time to put into going infinite, but otherwise it is a costly investment. But for those who never got into the paper game and don't care to, it's no different philosophically than paying to play any other online game. Paper is about 2 things: (1) Collectors, and (2) Social aspects of the game. Sure, it's conceivable that tournament play could be converted over to giant LAN parties like other venue-based video game tourneys; but cardboard will ever be about the ripping of the pack and the holding of the breath as each new card is revealed. Kids want to run around and show off their binders full of cool cards,
and those kids grow into the adult collectors that end up dropping $$$ for mint Power Nine sets and original card art. Wizards has communities on both sides of this equation to keep happy, so I don't expect to see Magic shed its dual nature. But hopefully, they will come up with a more palatable plan for people who want to dabble on both sides of the fence.

[Kazekirimaru]

Should we all pick up playsets of Firemane Avenger while it's .99USD, then?

[zemanjaski]

Can't hurt, what's $4?

[Kazekirimaru]

2-4 meals depending on how hard I swing it. Being poor is cool.

[zemanjaski]

Fair enough. Sorry.

[Kazekirimaru]

Oh, hush. I was just busting your chops a bit. I play Magic for goodness sake. I'm no stranger to spending money. xD