[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[Alex]

Also if you ixnay Elspeth and the Meddling Mage, you can play a new set. One with Lightning Bolt in it. Because Lightning Bolt > Path to Exile.

That does open up other possibilities, though.

Assuming I didn't want Shards as my other block, what would some other options be?

Kamigawa gives Jitte and Ninjas but not much else that I can think of.
Ice Age gives Swords, FoW, and frees up Brainstorm and Portent so I could go with another base set.
Ravnicas give Shocklands and some pretty good stuff like Bob or Lightning Helix.
Onslaught gives me Standstill...

Ice Age is the
only real choice. I forget the rules, but do you HAVE to include a core set or is that optional?

[redthirst]

That wasn't the short list or anything, but Ice Age most likely would be on the short list.

You have to pick a core set, but you don't have to include any cards from it.

[Alex]

M12 brings duals and Phantasmal Image. So yeah, that would be my choice. It also provides Shock, which isn't Lightning Bolt but it'll do.

[redthirst]

M12 brings duals and Phantasmal Image. So yeah, that would be my choice. It also provides Shock, which isn't Lightning Bolt but it'll do.

Also Ponder and Mana Leak...

[Alex]

Those too, although I assumed we were getting a little stark crazy with the inclusions.

But yes, M12 was a large part of the reason Delver was so strong.

[TubeHunter]

Ban goyf, huh?

Not bad.

Not his best work, but hey, time constraints and all that.

[redthirst]

Well, Ponder is an upgrade over Portent and Mana Leak is less color intestive than Counterspell while probably being about as good.

[Alex]

Well, Ponder is an upgrade over Portent and Mana Leak is less color intestive than Counterspell while probably being about as good.

Mana Leak is also a better anti-combo card than a dorky hatebear.

You can honestly play whatever secondary color you want because you aren't totally tied into white. Geist of Saint Traft is your only white spell and you could probably find something else to do with those slots if you really wanted.

[redthirst]

Mana Leak is also a better anti-combo card than a dorky hatebear.

It's really not.

Especially when the combo decks are playing their own counters and/or Silence/Abeyance/Chant.

It may be a more versatile card or better against other decks - I'll give you that - but the Mage is just oppressive against a deck that relies on a particular combo in a format where your opponent has your information.

Be as sceptical as you want, but - as someone who has experience with the format - I can assure you that MM can often just shut an opponent down.

[Alex]

Mana Leak is also a better anti-combo card than a dorky hatebear.

It's really not.

Especially when the combo decks are playing their own counters and/or Silence/Abeyance/Chant.

It may be a more versatile card or better against other decks - I'll give you that - but the Mage is just oppressive against a deck that relies on a particular combo in a format where your opponent has your information.

Be as sceptical as you want, but - as someone who has experience with the format - I can assure you that MM can often just shut an opponent down.

So what happens when the opponent
with that exact same suite of countermagic and burn just counters your hatebear? It's the exact same situation.

[TubeHunter]

Suggest to ban Goyf in modern: get a smart, well thought out post about why it shouldn't be.


I need to go deeper........

[Kazekirimaru]

Mana Leak is also a better anti-combo card than a dorky hatebear.

It's really not.

Especially when the combo decks are playing their own counters and/or Silence/Abeyance/Chant.

It may be a more versatile card or better against other decks - I'll give you that - but the Mage is just oppressive against a deck that relies on a particular combo in a format where your opponent has your information.

Be as sceptical as you want, but
- as someone who has experience with the format - I can assure you that MM can often just shut an opponent down.

So what happens when the opponent with that exact same suite of countermagic and burn just counters your hatebear? It's the exact same situation.

If your opponent is wasting spells on your 2/2 bear that you likely have three more of, you're doing alright in my opinion.

I'm a huge fan of MM in modern, personally. One of my favorites.

[LP, of the Fires]

The hatebear seems infinitely better against combo then mana leak to me.

1) Most combo decks are designed to win through counter magic

2) Mana leak doesn't beat for 2.

3) MM is proactive.

4) Chris Piluka

5) You can play the bear and still represent counter magic so long as you have actual countermagic in your list.

This doesn't automatically make me 100% right or anything, but the reasoning seems sound and if I have access to my opponents decklist, Meddling Mage feels very powerful. Mana leak is powerful two and more versatile, but meddling mage is...less dead later in the game?

[redthirst]

Mana Leak is also a better anti-combo card than a dorky hatebear.

It's really not.

Especially when the combo decks are playing their own counters and/or Silence/Abeyance/Chant.

It may be a more versatile card or better against other decks - I'll give you that - but the Mage is just oppressive against a deck that relies on a particular combo in a format where your opponent has your information.

Be as sceptical as you want, but - as
someone who has experience with the format - I can assure you that MM can often just shut an opponent down.

So what happens when the opponent with that exact same suite of countermagic and burn just counters your hatebear? It's the exact same situation.

Well, they'll have to counter the Mage when I want to play it instead of waiting until they're ready to go off and, additionaly, the Mage is significantly harder to counter than Leak in a deck running 4 Caverns.

Also, casting Silence on me every turn that I have 2+ mana until they go off to protect from Mage is probably much more difficult than just casting it the turn they want to go off to protect from Mana Leak.

Finally, I don't know of a single Combo deck that "protects" its combo with burn or removal, so I'm not really sure how to answer that one...

Suggest to ban Goyf in modern: get a smart, well thought out post about why it shouldn't be.


I need to go deeper........

A real troll wouldn't let a little sound logic stop him.

[TubeHunter]

I'm not stopped, just taking a different angle........



Also, BYOS sound really fun. we should do something like a clan tournament or something. I picked randomly, and i got: Onslaught, Scars, and 5th edition.... I'm feeling a decent u/b control list in there somewhere.

[hamfactorial]

I like the idea of BYOS. Naturally I'd just pick the block with the best aggressive creatures and the mana to make them better.

[redthirst]

BYOS is pretty fun and a Clan tournament would probably be awesome.

You'd be surprised how many combo decks only rely on a block or two to work, how busted fast some Aggro decks are (Mirrodin - Scars - whatever Affinity is really solid), and how competitive some really odd decks can be.

Last time I played, some asshole in the 3rd round was playing Infect and I was playing White Weenie:

My first turn: Student of Warfare
His first turn: Dark Ritual -> Phyrexian Crusader
My second turn: Stoneforge Mystic - get Jitte
His second turn: Attack, Invigorate, Mutagenic Growth - Have 8 poison counters - (Oh yeah, post combat Contagion Clasp - kill Student) lololololololololololololol!

I did not pull that game out.

[Alex]

The hatebear seems infinitely better against combo then mana leak to me.

1) Most combo decks are designed to win through counter magic

2) Mana leak doesn't beat for 2.

3) MM is proactive.

4) Chris Piluka

5) You can play the bear and still represent counter magic so long as you have actual countermagic in your list.

This doesn't automatically make me 100% right or anything, but the reasoning seems sound and if I have access to my opponents decklist, Meddling Mage feels very powerful. Mana leak is powerful two and more versatile, but meddling mage is...less dead later in the game?

I thought the same thing until I played at length with Ethersworn Canonist.

[zemanjaski]

161 pound uggghhh....I don't know how anyone ever walks around weighing less than this....feels bad man...

Will at least be a small cut to 148 this time around (I can probably drop another 4 pounds before cutting in a week). But still, going to go all kid goku up on the all you can eat dumplings next saturday

[redthirst]

How tall are you zem? 148 can't be much more than bones and organs.

Also, I like the new smiley...

[TubeHunter]

Lookin at byos, I just like to look at all the cards and see what deck you could possibly produce. My favorite ones is looking at all the cards in past sets and just like " oh, necropotence was in this set!"

[zemanjaski]

How tall are you zem? 148 can't be much more than bones and organs.

Also, I like the new smiley...

177cm or 5'10".

[Dodger]

I wanted to join crossfit since it looks a lot more fun and interesting than the aimless shit I do in the gym, but holy fuck it's like $150+ a month depending on the affiliate. I can renew my globogym membership for like $400 for two years.

[Sasky]

I'm 173cm (5'6") and 121 pounds.

Just go on an asian diet and you'd be fine.

[zemanjaski]

Crossfit is OK but it is very overrated as a development program. If you don't know how to program for yourself or just need that structure to get you motivated it is good; but in terms of getting fit and strong, it is pretty inefficient. Lots of hot girls though, so there is a non-insignificant upside.

@ Sasky ~ my walk around weight is about 180pounds I imagine my frame is like twice yours

[Link]

the key to beating junk rites is still pyreheart, that is all

[windstrider]

Gawdammit. Freaking snow and ice.

[Kazekirimaru]

@ Sasky ~ my walk around weight is about 180pounds I imagine my frame is like twice yours

You must have an awesome build. I'm the same height and weight and yet I carry around ten extra pounds of weight it feels like. Teach me your ways!

[zemanjaski]

Step 1. Go join a wrestling program.
Step 2. Read Jim Wendler's 531
Step 3. ????
Step 4. Profit!

[TubeHunter]

I'm 6' 250lb , and have a very bulky frame. My family has a thing of very broad shoulders. ah well, the better to play football with.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
14 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery

4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Geralf' Messenger
4 Thragtusk

4 Liliana of the Veil

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Cremate
1 Murder
3 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood
3 Tragic Slip
2 Victim of Night

Sideboard
3 Appetite for Brains
1 Cremate
2 Curse of Death's Hold
4 Duress
1 Mutilate
2 Underworld Connections
2 Vraska the Unseen[/deck]

<3 going deep.

Please no one ask me why Deathrite Shaman isn't in the deck. I encourage you to think before asking.

[windstrider]

Especially with 8 Liliana of the Veil.

[zemanjaski]

^ She can discard multiple copies of herself...der

[photodyer]

Gawdammit. Freaking snow and ice.

THIS. It's been 106 years since this happened. My daughter has been sporting shorts at school all week for temps in the 80's, and now I'm looking at 2" of snow of the ground with more coming down. Mother nature needs her bipolar medication regimen tuned up, evidently...sheesh!

[Christen]

I want to test Ruric-Thar on my gruul list. Then slap-on Wolfir Avenger.

EDIT: I mean Silverheart, geez!

[zemanjaski]

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Gor Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider
4 Lightning Mauler
2 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble

4 Searing Spear

13 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden[/deck]

[Sasky]

@ Sasky ~ my walk around weight is about 180pounds I imagine my frame is like twice yours

More or less yes. I am considered average-sized in this country. When I visit Western countries everyone seems like giants. The side-effects of rice-vegatable-steamed fish diet.

[Christen]

Got my obligatory DGM fat pack and it was a not-so-valuable box. Only got Notion Thief, Master of Cruelties, Deadbridge Chant, and Blood Crypt as notable rares. I also swear Bronzebeak Moas are just too common to be uncommon. I have like 6 of those now.

[Kazekirimaru]

Got my obligatory DGM fat pack and it was a not-so-valuable box. Only got Notion Thief, Master of Cruelties, Deadbridge Chant, and Blood Crypt as notable rares. I also swear Bronzebeak Moas are just too common to be uncommon. I have like 6 of those now.

Tough luck, friend. This set is a trap.

[Christen]

The set is not very valuable in general. There are very few money cards in the set, and you can even expect Ral to drop to around the same value as Domri, if not lower. I think this is the only set I won't be opening packs outside of draft and those I win from standard tourneys.