Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Shalako]

Please don't derail the discussions here

Sure

[Galspanic]

Just to jump in really quick....
Talking isn't really going to do much right now. We all have ideas about how things should work, but are all waiting for some guidance/feedback from Boubouille here.
You've made your case and that's pretty much where I am at. I wish I could say more, but I am still holding out for him before I do anything. Is that cool?

[Shalako]

The issue that many have here is that you're a banned member asking for favors. No other banned member (and there have been a small handful of discretionary banned members, you can include them in this) would get an agreement for a different way to get an appeal through. You're asking us to understand that the situation is different for you guys. This sort of thing is new and has never happened before, yes. But you also need to
understand that you're asking for something way, way different than we've ever done before for anyone.

You need to understand that you're asking for special treatment. And that's a big problem for a lot of the staff.

Nai, I think the thing that you're missing is that a "sort of thing" that "is new and has never happened before" by its very literal definition in special, so trying to then go on to tell us that it doesn't deserve special treatment because everything else about it is special word for word based on your above description doesn't make a lick of sense, nor do the ingrained attitudes of the stickler diehards you're speaking for saying you shouldn't be here talking. Talking isn't special for you, I think we can all attest to that. Doing something would be. We are asking you to do something.

But what you're asking me to 'do' is to flat out unban you. Which basically isn't going
to happen. So what 'special' thing do you want? What is it you're trying to get, Thrillho? What I see is 'unban us without appeal or discussion among mods', which just isn't happening. I see questions of public appeals, which may happen. But there's no real consensus on what it is that's wanted.

Yes. It's something new that hasn't happened before, which is special. But so is EVERY discretionary ban we issue, and we've done a handful in the past year. And we don't do this for -every- discretionary ban. So you're already getting special treatment.

What is the consensus of the iridium on what is wanted? I asked Gals and was told(I'm butchering this here) that he(?) was still thinking in more abstract terms.

[NoHomers]

Why not use the Pegging Chamber to handle appeals/discussions if mods are too afraid to come here?

[Shalako]

Just to jump in really quick....
Talking isn't really going to do much right now. We all have ideas about how things should work, but are all waiting for some guidance/feedback from Boubouille here.
You've made your case and that's pretty much where I am at. I wish I could say more, but I am still holding out for him before I do anything. Is that cool?

Could you answer my latest question really quick so There is time to internalize your answer?

[Shalako]

Nai, you guys never mass-banned people to the point that a thriving subforum died at your hands. That is a first in 7 years of MTGS history.

What we are asking is a modicum of goodwill, not that you come here antagonizing people and calling them liars.

What we are asking is for people to throw new ideas into the arena like Galspanic and Azrael have been doing, not having people rehash the same argument over and over like a broken record.

That's tots my fault. Sorry for antagonising Nai

[Col. Khaddafi]

Just to jump in really quick....
Talking isn't really going to do much right now. We all have ideas about how things should work, but are all waiting for some guidance/feedback from Boubouille here.
You've made your case and that's pretty much where I am at. I wish I could say more, but I am still holding out for him before I do anything. Is that cool?

Gals, do you mean about my pledge about my attitude on MTGS if I were to be unbanned? (mine and others too I guess)

It's not clear who you are addressing. Let me know and thanks for the feedback.

EDIT: Waiting for the owner (Boubs) to weigh in on the issue is totally fine by me.

[Shalako]

I'm sorry this is so frustrating for you. I think actually reading posts for their content should make this "Why aren't they listening to me and just posting an appeal thread when I already told them I'm not just going to come here and say ok you're unbanned?" repetition much less draining on all of us. That is not meant to be antagonistic. You are clearly not reading the words in posts or the suggestions made in them. No one has come in and said "Unban us right this second because you were wrong." Very few of us have even implied we should go completely over the head of an appeals process (AFAIK, only Shalko has said we should be unbanned with a probationary leash applied for a year, which is still not as simple as "immediately
unban us all and let's forget this whole thing")..

I asked if that in my specific case if Probation for a year would be acceptable terms. Sorry if that came off as something else Nai.

[Kaitscralt]

Why do you guys need to pick us one by one in some cave? Aren't we discussing already?

Who is moving this to a cave?

Nai has requested multiple times that we take this ongoing discussion to individualized hidey holes in
the MTGS appeals subforum instead of outside in a public space.

The mods were already upset when they assumed we made an appeals thread for Madding without an appeal from him (the two threads went up very quickly one after the other). We're not going to make an appeal discussion without an actual appeal.

Which mods were upset? Tell them to post in my appeal thread. All these different staff members keep telling me they think I should be unbanned. It would make sense if the ones who think I shouldn't be unbanned were to voice their concerns so I could promptly address them and keep things moving at a brisk pace.

[Galspanic]

Just to jump in really quick....
Talking isn't really going to do much right now. We all have ideas about how things should work, but are all waiting for some guidance/feedback from Boubouille here.
You've made your case and that's pretty much where I am at. I wish I could say more, but I am still holding out for him before I do anything. Is that cool?

Gals, do you mean about my pledge about my attitude on MTGS if I were to be unbanned? (mine and others too I guess)

It's not clear who you are addressing. Let me know and thanks for the feedback.

EDIT:
Waiting for the owner (Boubs) to weigh in on the issue is totally fine by me.

Your pledges/single posts don't really mean all that much to me - It's how you conduct yourself in the aggregate, right? But the conversation IS appreciated by me regardless.
And Boubouille came in here and said he would look at things so I really want to give him as much time as he wants to do so. The last thing I want is to establish this weird owner/admin relationship with us meddling... so I want to ease off if that's okay.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Allright, we will wait for the owner to chime in, that seems perfectly reasonable.

[Blackhound]

Round and round and round we go, were its stops nobody knows

[Mogadishu Jones]

Guys, Nai's point is that none of them have to come here, they banned us and are well within their rights to not give a flying fuck what we do and let us whine in our cribs all day about being banned. However, Nai and Galspanic and Sene did come here and have eventually arrived at our current point, where it appears some of us are actually nearing reconciliation. We can quite simply meet them halfway by posting proper appeals, and then wait and see if we are met the other half. There is no reason to get bent out of shape because you don't want to make an appeal on principle.

This is coming from someone who has spent 4 months appealing.

[Blackhound]

After much discussion and looking at the evidence, the iridium has come to the conclusion that there is now reasonable doubt that Kaitscralt evaded his suspension. As such, Kaitscralt and Belza are unbanned.

[Blackhound]

Congrats for getting banned, unbanned, banned and then unbanned again.

[Galspanic]

You guys are fucking vultures!

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (4 members and 0 guests)
Galspanic, BlippyTheSlug*, Kaitscralt, Lord Sodious

[Galspanic]

Still not used to the lack of censors.

[Thrillho]

we also forego a snack break followed by nap time.

[Kaitscralt]

Thanks for hearing me out.

[Galspanic]

Oh and just to be clear, this was not a discretion thing. This was a plain old "not enough proof" thing. I didn't say we'd wait for Boubouille and then 20 minutes later do something... unrelated issues. Just realized that might have looked weird.

[Azrael]

What you're suggesting is a very, very different way of doing things than we've done for probably the better part of the past year.

Indeed.

Perhaps I should remind you that one of the reasons we've gone to this 'democratic voting' method is because the upper staff decided, without the lower staff, to close the Gutter?

Right.

However the problem in that case was that the lower staff were not informed of the decision, and had no chance to take part in the debate.

But then, instead of simply keeping lower staff in the loop, lower staff also seem to have been given the power to strongly influence admin decision-making, to the point that you've stated you feel your freedom to act is being limited by political pressure from below.

---
RE: Special Treatment

Gutter/staff relations
have always been special and extraordinary, and involved unusual procedures and mechanisms. The creation of the gutter/staff pegging chamber. Mass bannings, forum closings, summits, extended chats - there have been any number of procedural deviations prior to this instance that admin has exerted their traditionally broad breadth of power and discretion to push through.

The difference seems to be that in the case, a number of staff members have grown used to throwing their weight around successfully within the lounge, while avoiding public debate and scrutiny, and they are now using the rallying cry of procedure to object to something that they just-plain dislike.

Or maybe they perceive it as favoritism on admin's part. Either way, I don't think the objection is on-point, in view of the unusual situation and past precedent. That would be my interpretation from the outside. Until and unless they decide to actually come out into the open and speak for themselves, it's difficult to figure it out and
give their viewpoint the benefit of the doubt.

But aside from that argument, I think there's very good arguments that:

1.) Many of the gutterites' appeals never received a final decision as they had requested, but were instead informed that they should stay tuned for future updates. This is not a double appeal within the one-year limit, but a continuation of those ongoing, long-delayed decisions.
2. Even in the case of any gutterites who might have received a "final verdict", and I'm not sure there have been any, we've all agreed that there's been a well-documented tendency for staff members to fail to confront gutterites with their views openly, and they've been unable to fairly defend themselves from these secret witnesses and secret arguments. Many of the appeals thus far have been tainted by that procedural unfairness.

EDs: Good stuff. Congrats, Madding.

[Kaitscralt]

After much discussion and looking at the evidence, the iridium has come to the conclusion that there is now reasonable doubt that Kaitscralt evaded his suspension. As such, Kaitscralt and Belza are unbanned.

SO LONG MTGC! SUCKERS!

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Youll be back....

[Captain Murphy]

Again, I would love if we could explore alternatives in order to reach something more of a B) case scenario. As opposed to private individual appeals on MTGS, do you think something else could be worked out? Maybe we could strike an agreement if some new ideas are brought to the table?

The issue that many have here is that you're a banned member asking for favors. No other banned member (and there have been a small handful of discretionary banned members, you can include them in this) would get an agreement for a different way to get an appeal through. You're asking us to
understand that the situation is different for you guys. This sort of thing is new and has never happened before, yes. But you also need to understand that you're asking for something way, way different than we've ever done before for anyone.

You need to understand that you're asking for special treatment. And that's a big problem for a lot of the staff.

But lets not deny the bannings weren't something special

[Checkbox]

You've been a great help.

[imopen2]

just manasjap'd the shit out of this thread.

lol @harku's "test."

my reaction was something like


congrats madding, now burn their house down!

anyways, carry on.

[Blackhound]

I dont mean to throw a grenade here, but Blutsau custom title made me laugh,

[Blackhound]

Though seriously as long as Madding does not cause any trouble (which he is not going to anyway) then no problem

[Yannaria]

After much discussion and looking at the evidence, the iridium has come to the conclusion that there is now reasonable doubt that Kaitscralt evaded his suspension. As such, Kaitscralt and Belza are unbanned.

SO LONG MTGC! SUCKERS!

:patriot:

[Captain Murphy]

Blutsau fought the butthurt and lost

[Thrillho]

Given the spat he had with a lot of us in the GSP over actual nothing, this is an amusing turn.

Every time I see someone ragequit, it reminds me of this one time I was playing Counter-Strike on a server where the admins installed a bunch of crazy stuff including a teleport script that you had to hot key. After the mode had been turned on, I wound up staying in the server long enough for all of the people who'd been playing when the script and how to use it were first enabled and explained and I'd set up my way-point in the Terrorist base (I was playing CT). I would teleport into the base at the start of the map and shoot the opposing team in the head as soon as the round started, and the ensuing hacks claims and rage was pretty hilarious.

My anecdote, of course, implying Madding has a teleport script that Blutsau was not informed of, causing him to rage quit from MTGS.

[Thrillho]

shut the fuck up daniel. go reread yellow fever

[Blackhound]

I see your post count is down to 400 at Salvation now Harkius, soon Kijin will not be able to read up on your posts to add to his dossier on you.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Nothing beats the dossiers that google accumulated on Harkius anyway.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Still not me, guys. That's the other Harkius. Same as the dude who plays WOW isn't me. Same as the dude with an account on OKCupid isn't me.

True, when you do a google search with "harkius email university" you get the Harkius with a Ph.D. in biochemistry, not the campus security guard Harkius.

[Blackhound]

Harkius

[Thrillho]

treat others the way you want to be treated, harkius. you want to be treated like an untrustworthy troll? #regards
-harkius

[Blackhound]

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[Thrillho]

wacky he must have gone full celsus.

[iamabadman]

he did here