[Primer] Boros Burn

[NotARobot]

Maybe glare of heresy is better than w//t for that slot now? I think UW control boards in extra counterspells and lifegain creatures of some sort - rams, archangels, paladins, I've seen all of them recently.

[Elricity]

Glare is pretty narrow too against the planar version and useless everywhere else. I'd rather just run a single mortar. Plus, paladin is no longer a boogyman if you have flamespeakers, particularly without dsphere.

Also, the enchantment removal has some side benefits right now in other matchups.

[BiddingMaster]

since when did mono blue devotion become a bad matchup? I dont los to it very often and when I do its because i make a play mistake not because the matchup is bad.

[Khaospawn]

We took a successful list, and are breaking it down 3 weeks later to adapt to the metagame we face today. Is that not the point of the forums?

A forum is an outlet for like-minded people to communicate on various topics of discussion if you want to get technical.

What I'm saying is, I think you guys are going way to deep on a list that took 2nd place in 269 person tournament in Japan 26 days ago. From the looks of it, Shouta just jammed a deck a he liked. He may have known the meta very well. Wasn't it at Saito's card shop? He probably knew something about the players there that we don't (and probably never will). The Boros Reckoner in his sideboard was probably in there because maybe he expected a bunch of little
Green Stompy decks. The Flamespeakers were probably in there because he was like, "Hey, nobody's put up any results with this card yet. I'm gonna jam it and see how it goes!"

I find it funny that there was a Boros Burn deck that won a GP with over twice as many people just 10 days ago (I think) and nobody has barely spoke about it. What's so magical about Shouta's list that has everybody jizzing in their shorts about (besides not being able to comprehend his Japanese logic about his sideboard)?

This is just my observation. I just think that by the time you guys have "figured this out," M15 will be out, the metagame will shift and all of this would've just been pointless.


edit: tl;dr - Just go with what you know.

second edit: Everybody lately just seems like they're second guessing themselves and their roles in certain matchups. I've seen a lot of questions like "When did 'X' matchup become bad?" Or when did 'X' card get good while 'Y' card isn't
favored anymore?" Everybody just seems so unsure now. Where's the confidence!?

[BiddingMaster]

Are you thinking about tweaks for the meta at all?

I'm curious about the same thing if your running my list you can help me find that sliver bullet vs Jund/Junk/BW/Bg that I'm really looking for (you'll see why we need after you watch my next SE Report where I face two Junk list (Sheep, BBV, GhostDads, Oozes, Devour Flesh, FSP, Angels all horrible possibilities packed into one list.....) and split the finals) we can win but its not fun.....

junk cant handle eidolon very well. I
like him because he is a very good card if their game plan is to grind you out and chandra can win games by herself.

[Purp]

since when did mono blue devotion become a bad matchup? I dont los to it very often and when I do its because i make a play mistake not because the matchup is bad.

I am not saying it's a "bad" matchup. I am saying of all the tier 1 decks, it is the worst matchup for burn (I would assume you understand this as well as I understand what list I am currently on[seeking advice from people who have played this variation more than I])

[Elricity]

Unless M15 prints a card worth a shit, I'm not seeing the meta changing at all =\.

[Purp]

Unless M15 prints a card worth a shit, I'm not seeing the meta changing at all =\.

Mono black gets a planeswalker, yayyy.

[Khaospawn]

Unless M15 prints a card worth a shit, I'm not seeing the meta changing at all =\.

Give me some decent artifacts to use and I will rub Shrapnel Blasts all over my nekkid body while screaming, "I'm the muthafuckin' Lord of Lightning, bitches!"

[Khaospawn]

Unless M15 prints a card worth a shit, I'm not seeing the meta changing at all =\.

Mono black gets a planeswalker, yayyy.

That can tutor up Gray Merchants.

Well, that's if they reprint ole Vess.

[Elricity]

Unless M15 prints a card worth a shit, I'm not seeing the meta changing at all =\.

Mono black gets a planeswalker, yayyy.

Unless M15 prints a card worth a shit, I'm not seeing the meta changing at all =\.

Ok, being slightly faceitious but I don't see it having an impact on us at least.

[BiddingMaster]

So I was testing vs Boss Sligh, and a kind of interesting decision point came up. It was post board and I managed to stabilize at 9 life. I was on 3 lands (1 muta, 1 foundry, 1 mountain), and my hand was Temple, Chandra's Phoenix, Chandra, Sacred Foundry, and Warleader's Helix. My opponent had an Ash Zealot and a Foundry Street Denizen on board with 0 cards in hand and 4 basic mountains.

So my options are to shock a land in and play Chandra (and kill Denizen), shock a land in and hold Warleader's Helix (shock bringing me to 7), or scry and play Phoenix to block (opponent is at 20 life). What would you guys do?

My choice

---

I ended up shocking, playing Chandra to kill Denizen. He untapped, Dragon Mantle on Ash Zealot, attack me, pump twice and
Titan's Strength (drawn from Dragon's Mantle) to deal 7 damage to me. Can't help but think that holding Warleader's Helix would be the right move there.

The way I see it if you shock to 7 then helix to 11 and wait until your opponent attacks and he plays an ash zealot then we are facing basically the exact same situation on the next turn and basiclly the same life total. I would rather risk dying to a god draw and play chandra to kill a creature and be so far ahead of board. Playing helix doenst change the game next turn if he draws a live spell.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Neither does Reckoner. Reckoner wasn't great before because he wasn't an effective stumbling block to the large ground creatures from monsters decks on his own. Reckoner doesn't matter all that much when you're opponent just has 3 other beaters waiting in the wings. With Banishing Light and Reprisal you have enough removal to make Reckoner a significant board presence, and you still have double burn and some number of mortars as answers to Stormbreath Dragon.

EDIT: Ghor-Clan also made Reckoner embarrassing but Reprisal makes Ghor-Clan embarrassing.

That actually makes sense. I was under the impression we moved away from Reckoner mainly because of SBD, but forgot about GCR. I guess it's only half bad now?

[magicdownunder]

Last Time

---

Got back from my two week break and won two SE event, current rank No. 25 (should be 23) and current rating 1800+ limbo (its 1843 atm).

Here is the list:

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn for MODOs Ghost and Monsters]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice

Creatures 08
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments and Removal 05
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Mizzium Mortars

Burns 24
4 Magma Jet
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike

Sideboard 15
4 Toil // Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Banishing Light
1 Keening Apparition
1 Mutavault
1 Reprisal
1 Fated Conflagration[/deck]


Manabase
Why arn't I running Mana Confluence? This version of burn is almost a control deck with the number of removal I'm running in my 75 so I need a REALLY good reason to take all that pain

Why I'm I running 1 Temple of Silence and 1 Temple of Malice? 6 Scry lands = more choices which gives you more chances too either win or lose.

MD Removal Suit
Jund is the current topdog online follow by Bx Devo and Ux Devo so not running 4x Chains and 1x MM would be silly.

SB
2 Banishing Light is a my answer against Ux Devotion (I know lots of you here believe the MU is a bye, but its one of the few MU which can just kill you if you don't have CttR or BL on the spot)

1 Reprisal and 1 Fated Conflagration are for all the Ghost and Monster decks (I wanted too go 2x Reprisal but I felt that I needed that 5th MM for SBD and BBV&#
41;

3 Mizzium Mortars a must have if your not on the Dancer package

4 Toil // Trouble, 2 Chandra, Pyromaster, 1 Mutavault are my preferred anti-control package

- - - - - - - - - -

I count the 1 Keening Apparition as my flex spot, still thinking about it.

SE Report 7223931
G1 Ux Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7223931
G2 Naya vs Rw Burn SE 7223931
G3 Bant Control vs Rw Burn SE 7223931

Sideboarding is included in the videos but please not this is my first game within two weeks so cards and boarding are pending change.

SE Report 7224516
[url=https://www.
youtube.com/watch?v=ulZWT_3bnL4&list=PLBO2Co_8Gb6zIxGs3g-nnYDy6m7Azu4Ma]G1 Bx Devo vs Rw Burn SE 7224516[/url]
G2 AiR vs Rw Burn SE 7224516
G3 Split

Still prepping for Thursdays MOCS8 Grind-a-Ton so the basic SB guide is still in its works (hopefully I'll get it done by Wednesday).

SE Report 7227206
G1 Esper Control vs Rw Burn SE 7227206
G2 BW Control vs Rw Burn SE 7227206
G3 Naya Aggro vs Rw
Burn SE 7227206

Still havn't worked out what 75 I want too take into MOCS8 grind-a-ton and what SB plan to use but it should be fine.

Warning this event contains Courser of Kruphix, Nyx-Fleece Ram, Obzedat Ghost Council, Scavenging Ooze + more (not for the faint of heart)

SE Report 7227384
G1 Junk vs Rw Burn SE 7227384
G2 Junk vs Rw Burn SE 7227384
G3 Split

[Rhyno]

Played some Regular REL standard tonight, won an Obzedat as part of 1st. Considering lighting it on fire.

[zemanjaski]

Reprisal and Banishing Light being printed.

Which do not interact with Stormbreath Dragon... what am I missing?

That SBD wasn't the problem card; Polukranos, Courser or anything plus GCR were the issue outside of their nut draw. Those cards all directly interact with our strategy, SBD doesn't. You're falling into the trap if trying to answer everything which is unnecessary, your role is to tempo them out. Prolonging the game too long ultimately plays into their bigger endgame. Focus on beating what actually beats you.

Our average draw vs. theirs is a
turn faster for us so as long as you have a way to interact with most if their lines you've got an edge.

[BrainsickHater]

Played some Regular REL standard tonight, won an Obzedat as part of 1st. Considering lighting it on fire.

I lol'd

[zemanjaski]

We took a successful list, and are breaking it down 3 weeks later to adapt to the metagame we face today. Is that not the point of the forums?

A forum is an outlet for like-minded people to communicate on various topics of discussion if you want to get technical.

What I'm saying is, I think you guys are going way to deep on a list that took 2nd place in 269 person tournament in Japan 26 days ago. From the looks of it, Shouta just jammed a deck a he liked. He may have known the meta very well. Wasn't it at Saito's card shop? He probably knew something about the
players there that we don't (and probably never will). The Boros Reckoner in his sideboard was probably in there because maybe he expected a bunch of little Green Stompy decks. The Flamespeakers were probably in there because he was like, "Hey, nobody's put up any results with this card yet. I'm gonna jam it and see how it goes!"

I find it funny that there was a Boros Burn deck that won a GP with over twice as many people just 10 days ago (I think) and nobody has barely spoke about it. What's so magical about Shouta's list that has everybody jizzing in their shorts about (besides not being able to comprehend his Japanese logic about his sideboard)?

This is just my observation. I just think that by the time you guys have "figured this out," M15 will be out, the metagame will shift and all of this would've just been pointless.


edit: tl;dr - Just go with what you know.

second edit: Everybody lately just seems like they're second guessing themselves and their roles in
certain matchups. I've seen a lot of questions like "When did 'X' matchup become bad?" Or when did 'X' card get good while 'Y' card isn't favored anymore?" Everybody just seems so unsure now. Where's the confidence!?

Shota is one of the 5 best players in the world, the best deck builder ever, and Japanese Nationals are without doubt tougher than a Russian GP.

Add to that his deck represented a substantial departure from the Ben and re-examined previously discarded ideas, finding new and innovative ways to fight matchups. The Russian list was basically a lift from my last article with an updates SB.

Let's be real, Shota knows more than any of us; when he does we pay it attention.

[Kaitscralt]

shouta sucks

[Kaitscralt]

rw spurn should not be tamponed with

[Kaitscralt]

tampered

[Kaitscralt]

burn

[BrainsickHater]

rw spurn should not be tamponed with

>not be tamponed with
>tamponed with
>tamponed

hehe

[Valdarith]

Wait...why was my name brought up here by Purp? I haven't said anything here for awhile...

[Rhyno]

vadlaroth is not to be tamponed with.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm with Khaos. I think his list was probably based on weird Japanese meta. I'd much rather play the GP Moscow list.

[BrainsickHater]

I can't play anything besides the Shouta list; everything else just makes me think of tampons.

[Rhyno]

I can't play anything besides the Shouta list; everything else just makes me think of tampons.

I'm considering boarding 4x tampon for the spurn mirror.

[zemanjaski]

I'm with Khaos. I think his list was probably based on weird Japanese meta. I'd much rather play the GP Moscow list.

So pretty much what we were playing with a less coherent sideboard.

[BrainsickHater]

I'm with Khaos. I think his list was probably based on weird Japanese meta. I'd much rather play the GP Moscow list.

So pretty much what we were playing with a less coherent sideboard.

THIS

Pretty much how I feel about the Shouta list compared to everything else after playing with it.

[BrainsickHater]

I'm considering boarding 4x tampon for the spurn mirror.

I 100% read that as "spurm mirror." My mind is not appropriate for these forums.

[Khaospawn]

We took a successful list, and are breaking it down 3 weeks later to adapt to the metagame we face today. Is that not the point of the forums?

A forum is an outlet for like-minded people to communicate on various topics of discussion if you want to get technical.

What I'm saying is, I think you guys are going way to deep on a list that took 2nd place in 269 person tournament in Japan 26 days ago. From
the looks of it, Shouta just jammed a deck a he liked. He may have known the meta very well. Wasn't it at Saito's card shop? He probably knew something about the players there that we don't (and probably never will). The Boros Reckoner in his sideboard was probably in there because maybe he expected a bunch of little Green Stompy decks. The Flamespeakers were probably in there because he was like, "Hey, nobody's put up any results with this card yet. I'm gonna jam it and see how it goes!"

I find it funny that there was a Boros Burn deck that won a GP with over twice as many people just 10 days ago (I think) and nobody has barely spoke about it. What's so magical about Shouta's list that has everybody jizzing in their shorts about (besides not being able to comprehend his Japanese logic about his sideboard)?

This is just my observation. I just think that by the time you guys have "figured this out," M15 will be out, the metagame will shift and all of this would've just been
pointless.


edit: tl;dr - Just go with what you know.

second edit: Everybody lately just seems like they're second guessing themselves and their roles in certain matchups. I've seen a lot of questions like "When did 'X' matchup become bad?" Or when did 'X' card get good while 'Y' card isn't favored anymore?" Everybody just seems so unsure now. Where's the confidence!?

Shota is one of the 5 best players in the world, the best deck builder ever, and Japanese Nationals are without doubt tougher than a Russian GP.

Add to that his deck represented a substantial departure from the Ben and re-examined previously discarded ideas, finding new and innovative ways to fight matchups. The Russian list was basically a lift from my last article with an updates SB.

Let's be real, Shota knows more than any of us; when he does we pay it attention.

Just because his build is a departure from the norm doesn't mean it's "better." On paper,
it looks like a wet dream - streamlined and sexy. But is it honestly any better than any of the other lists we've posted on this forum? It's hard to say. I'm not trying to take away Shouta's 2nd place finish from him when I say this, but the 'zemanjaski special' that we're so accustomed to has put up better results.

I'll give credit where credit's due and admit that Shouta is a great Magic player and deck builder (being the best is debatable). But, James, I also think you are too.

In order to move forward, we should be taking ideas that worked from other lists and assimilate them into something greater. That's called progress. But all I've seen lately is the community take Shouta's list and ejaculate on top of it as they attempt to figure the why's and the how's of it. Nobody is getting anywhere. How many pages and pages does one have to sift through of "I don't understand this Flamespeaker! Why is it in the board? What's it good against? How do I use it?" before somebody has
to say something? I'm just calling it how I see it. People aren't realizing that there are other factors when it came to Shouta's decision making on deckbuilding, such as locality, metagame, and even straight up knowing what some people were going to play. And those reasons probably don't apply to any one of us here.

Like I said previously, I think by the time this nut is cracked, M15 will be out and the meta will shift into something different. Or who knows? Maybe Shouta will turn the deck upside and play something that will leave us scratching our heads again. If that happens, I just hope the community doesn't spend about a month poring over the why's and how's of a 3 card difference in the main deck.

[Khaospawn]

I can't play anything besides the Shouta list; everything else just makes me think of tampons.

That...is a damn good reason.

[magicdownunder]

My quest for the elusive sliver bullet for Jund/Junk/BW has resulted in my greatest Zen like answer ever!!!

Super Secret Zen like bullet for Jund/Junk/BW

---

Play Better

Its been working so I'll keep at it

P.S. I hope Tom Ross continues his success since its like open season online

[Khaospawn]

MDU's tech too stronk.

[BrainsickHater]

To me, Shouta's list is better and I don't have any questions about the card choices. The deck is designed to give you the ability to play out longer games and beat your opponent most of the time if you play correctly.

In the past, my plan against Junk was to burn them down before they could see a lot of hate(ish) cards, and hope they don't just slam down more cards that wreck my strategy than I can deal with. With the Shouta list, I actually ended up boarding in 12 cards -everything but Flamespeaker- by game 3, and I was able to grind out my opponent through two Obzedats and a Blood Baron.

I feel that the Shouta list is about playing better and giving yourself the room to ouplay your opponent, where almost everything else is about boarding in answers or haymakers and hoping your draws line up well with your opponent's. People are constantly asking where Flamespeaker comes in because they aren't thinking of it
as part of a cohesive strategy and a change in playstyle, but as another silver bullet that provides some kind of significant, almost game-breaking edge.

EDIT: Boarding in 12 cards is a departure from the norm in the burn deck, but the Shouta list is probably the farthest from a goldfishing deck that the list can get. This means we can board in 12 cards in lots of matchups to give us the tools we need to compete in longer games. This also means the creatures are a necessity in the sideboard. If we board in 12 cards, we have a lower density of burn which makes it harder for us to close out the game. The creatures play an important role in being pseudo-answers as well as powerful threats.

[NotARobot]

What 12 cards did you board out?

[Khaospawn]

Brainsick, if you're doing well with it, chances are, it's not the deck. It's you. The maindeck is basically 3 cards off from Z's list - it eschews Searing Blood for more Shock, Chains, and a Mortar. The sideboard uses Reckoner instead of Mortars. And the Flamespeakers, well....its value seems to change every other day.

The other sideboard cards are no different than you'll see in any other list.

[Khaospawn]

Also, boarding in 12 cards is nothing new. But at the same time, it's now a transformational board and you've ceased to be a traditional Burn deck.

[BrainsickHater]

@NotARobot: I don't exactly recall, but I believe I took out 4 Shock and 4 Skullcrack (and some other stuff of course).

@Khaospawn: I never boarded in 12 cards before Shouta's list because I didn't want to tamper with my ability to burn out my opponent quickly too much.

The maindeck might only be three cards different, but not having Searing Blood says a lot about what you're trying to do.

Reckonver vs. Mortars is a significant difference. The prophetic flamespeakers, merely by being 3 more permanent bodies, grant you the ability to shift from relying almost entirely on limited damage to end the game to being able to slam a card off the top and ride away with it.