[Primer] Boros Burn

Josahty · Postby **Josahty** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:55 am

I've won plenty of games on the back of yp tokens. Never underestimate those suckers!

I understand how they can be useful, but he said that the one solitary token sealed the game for me when I never even got to attack with it. Guess I just don't have the vision to see that.

Josahty · Postby **Josahty** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:11 am

Really excited to try out Flamespeaker next week (borrowing them so I won't have them til Sunday). Just hope they don't die to removal(tm) every single time.

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:31 am

Really excited to try out Flamespeaker next week (borrowing them so I won't have them til Sunday). Just hope they don't die to removal(tm) every single time.

Lol, don't get your hopes up

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:18 am

I've been testing a build close to Zem's because I think Pyromancer will be stronger in the meta at my upcoming IQ.
I'm 10-1 in matches overall (local weekly events, soft) but damn does it feel weaker to me against W/U control.

Jace still feels like a disaster when I have Pyromancer and Flamespeaker in hand. I guess I'll watch Zem's Esper videos and see if I'm doing something wrong.
Playing the long game never seems to work out in my favor.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:34 am

A lot of it's timing. You have to put the "fear" into your opponent. Is Eot shock really getting you far? If you're putting your opponent under any pressure, sometimes it's worth holding your lesser spells so that your opponent thinks your hand is mono-gas.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:49 am

Game summary:

1 ~ stall on land, lose with 3 chains and mortars in hand

2 ~ flood, bait opp so I can resolve Chandra; ultra Chandra and only hit shock; win through second rev anyway

3 ~ flood and draw nothing relevant.

It was a pretty poor showing in terms of draws from the deck but I think the sequencing, bluffing etc is quite instructional. I snap called a bluff he made in game two to set up the win too.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:51 am

druft

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:56 am

druft

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:56 am

Wow that was the saddest Chandra ult I've seen in a while.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:59 am

Scenario: Opponent on UW cleansing control is at 4, with seven cards in hand, 8 lands in play, and 4 tapped from playing a guildgate and divinating. Holding up quad UW duals.

Shouta Burn list player has Chandra's phoenix and 2 mutavaults(along with 3 boros lands) in play and a phoenix, magma jet and YP as relevant cards in hand.

What's your play? FWIW, I think the best play is just attack with phoenix and muta, but there are several different lines you can go with that all play around something.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:01 am

I'd also say from the brief Test session I've done that at least game one vs. the deck Reid played at the invitational is very interesting and I'm surprised out how not aweful divinations full of planar cleansings is vs. burn. Having 5 dead cards main helps I suppose.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:05 am

Depends how many Azorius Charm if any are in the graveyard

It is reasonably safe there to attack for the win with all 3 creatures unless you fear 2 combat tricks out of UW control

The safe play is attack with two creatures and leave up Magma Jet and Skullcrack bluff

I'm not sure how many other lines there are, your hand is horrible if the Magma Jet gets countered, you need to win with Mutavault asap

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:07 am

I think that so long as you keep up two mana to represent Skullcrack you can't go too wrong here; I'd lean towards playing Phoenix for mana efficiency if he's used up some spheres; otherwise I like YP; I want to force him to keep tapping at sorcery so that I can more easily manage the lines in which he wants to rev. Im happy with him countering either creature is play, so I'd play either pre-combat to reduce the likelihood I get a creature charmed on top of my library since I'm in the market for drawing a sixth land.

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:12 am

It depends on what game it is and what's in the yard.

I play Phoenix and either swing with 2 Phoenix and Mutavault or hold up Skullcrack.

Swinging here gives him the least amount of outs. He has to have 2 removal spells. He can't Syncopate or Dissolve the Phoenix without dying to the other Phoenix and Mutavault.
Swinging with 2 and "going for it" with the Magma Jet loses to removal + negate/dispel, no thanks.

I'd likely swing with all 3.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:13 am

I think that so long as you keep up two mana to represent Skullcrack you can't go too wrong here; I'd lean towards playing Phoenix for mana efficiency if he's used up some spheres; otherwise I like YP; I want to force him to keep tapping at sorcery so that I can more easily manage the lines in which he wants to rev. Im happy with him countering either creature is play, so I'd play either pre-combat to reduce the likelihood I get a creature charmed on top of my library since I'm in the market for drawing a sixth land.

he isn't playing spheres

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:14 am

I like the part where Julian stalls on land and calmly discards Jace then multiple Elspeth later; lesser players would have cast *something* and got wrecked.

@ madding; then Phoenix plus Mutavault go go go.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:16 am

I think he had played 1 or two charms at that point.

Without thinking to deeply about it, I swung with phoenix and muta and got a vault charmed. I figured I'd smugly jet him since I had mana to pay for syncopate.

Got me with the 1-of negate

His next turn, He jaced, whiffed and passed. I played phoenix into dissolve, and swung with phoenix and muta for lethal.

In retrospect though, despite him having the negate which I can't reasonably play around game 1, I think that line and the beat with phoenix plus double vault line are both fine, but the latter is better since I new he'd have to have exactly to A-charms to win, or I guess last breath which I was 95% sure he wasn't playing.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:17 am

it's impossible to say what the play is without knowing the pace of the game and how many azorius charms have been cast, if the divination was obviously in desperation or not, etc, etc

playing it safe is the better play but probably loses more games in that situation than forcing your opponent to have 2 removal spells

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:17 am

sometimes you just go for it

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:19 am

Is there a tangible benefit to swinging with 2 Mutavaults instead of 2 Phoenix?

But yeah, if it was Game 1 and he already used a charm, I 100% go for it with 3 attackers.

playing it safe is the better play but probably loses more games in that situation than forcing your opponent to have 2 removal spells

What do you mean by it being the better play if it loses more games there?

Also I think the big question to ask is what the Divinate tells us.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:22 am

Unrelated, I wonder if it's easier or harder for Z or any Australian really to get better at magic then it is for someone in the US.

On the one hand, with Australia being smaller, it's easier to have access to your best players for more meaningful knowledge acquisition.

On the other hand, there's like 20 million people in Australia which is less then there are in So-Cal, so from a population density standbout, your best players might be as good because there's of them who probably don't play as much.

This is the shit you think about after reading Freakonomics for a day.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:23 am

Is there a tangible benefit to swinging with 2 Mutavaults instead of 2 Phoenix?

But yeah, if it was Game 1 and he already used a charm, I 100% go for it with 3 attackers.

playing it safe is the better play but probably loses more games in that situation than forcing your opponent to have 2 removal spells
What do you mean by it being the better play if it loses more games there?

Also I think the big question to ask is what the Divinate tells us.

He's at four, so if he starts mad digging, it can give the impression(correct or otherwise) that he's frantically looking for answers to not be dead.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:25 am

I mean in most games you are programmed to not tap out against the Revelation deck, so it is the "better" play to play it safe because if he has two Charms you just lose to a Rev for 6 on his turn

But "better" is not always "right," as we see the results here, he could have killed him by swinging with three creatures and was at the mercy of a Jace -2.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:27 am

both plays won the game, one was a bit more risky but i think i like the odds of forcing him to have his last 2 az charm over having 9 mana and 8 cards the next turn to figure out how to survive

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:30 am

I think that terminology is a little loose and I do and don't quite get what you're saying.

The metric I use is that the right play wins you more games if you did it 100 times vs. the other play which may win this game but do to statistics is the worse play.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:34 am

both plays won the game, one was a bit more risky but i think i like the odds of forcing him to have his last 2 az charm over having 9 mana and 8 cards the next turn to figure out how to survive

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:34 am

An example I guess is not overcommitting into a sweeper where you're gonna loose overcommit or not if he has anything, so you should just force him to have it and what happens every now and then is they have straight bricks, and you win, but you still played incorrectly.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:35 am

How can I better say that sometimes the play you do 100 times isn't gonna work the 101st time? It doesn't matter which play is right over all, it matters which one is going to win you that game

The whole reason the scenario was posted is because the obvious 100x play suddenly didn't seem so obvious to him... that's the joy of a complex game of Magic

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:37 am

Unrelated, I wonder if it's easier or harder for Z or any Australian really to get better at magic then it is for someone in the US.

On the one hand, with Australia being smaller, it's easier to have access to your best players for more meaningful knowledge acquisition.

On the other hand, there's like 20 million people in Australia which is less then there are in So-Cal, so from a population density standbout, your best players might be as good because there's of them who probably don't play as much.

This is the shit you think about after reading Freakonomics for a day.

It's much harder for us. The players here aren't as good as those in the us so the knowkedge available is much kess; also smaller player pool and WAYYYYY
less events. SNS has ~5 guys currently on the PT and while they usually cash they're not making regular top 25s or anything.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:41 am

An example I guess is not overcommitting into a sweeper where you're gonna loose overcommit or not if he has anything, so you should just force him to have it and what happens every now and then is they have straight bricks, and you win, but you still played incorrectly.

i see this as an example of playing incorrectly as well but don't see how it is analogous to this situation. i said he shouldn't have made the aggressive play unless there were azorius charms in the graveyard. sometimes it is also acceptable to put lethal on the board and force your opponent to have their sweeper when they've already gone through several. usually you don't do it, sometimes you do. you aren't playing incorrectly. laying one threat out at a time regardless of the
game, matchup, clock, graveyard, hands, life totals, just because "no overcommit = me so good" is playing incorrectly on a fundamental level.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:43 am

but we're getting into the territory where i feel like you're the type to argue that there's no such thing as strictly better cards, so i will just be glad to have made my points and leave the discussion to die

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:45 am

You need to recognise that the game has reached a critical point wherein if he gets to untap next turn, you lose.

While in the abstract we want to play around as much as possible, the game has passed the point where that is possible. Here, making him have it is correct because with access to full mana next turn, given the quality of our hand (and that we're relatively mana constrained) forward progress is likely impossible.

Going for it now gives him the fewest available resources to survive.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:01 am

If you aren't beating him here with 4 mana up you sure as hell aren't beating him with 8+ mana.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:05 am

FWIW, I'm not disagreeing with you Kait, I just didn't understand what you said by the way you said it.

Furthermore, the argument wasn't go for it now, it was how do you go for it since there are 3 distinct plays that all result in throwing 6 points of lethal damage at his 4 life, and 4 mana.

The main distintions being attack with 2 phoenix's and a vault, 1 phoenix and 2 vaults, or 1 phoenix, 1 vault, and 1 magma jet.

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:11 am

Right, I don't see how representing Skullcrack and holding up Magma Jet gives him less outs.

Swinging with 3 creatures gives him the least outs. Casting the Phoenix is irrelevant to whether or not we win this turn, the outcome is the same.

An example I guess is not overcommitting into a sweeper where you're gonna loose overcommit or not if he has anything, so you should just force him to have it and what happens every now and then is they have straight bricks, and you win, but you still played incorrectly.

He's dead if he doesn't have 2 pieces of removal, so you're losing both Mutavaults if you animate both. I'd rather save a Mutavault if we're playing around sweepers for some reason.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:31 am

^ that.

HK1997 · Postby **HK1997** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:30 am

I dont see what you are representing skullcrack for. Best case scenario, you win with either magma jet or muta+2 phoenix. Worst case, he charms one creep, negates the jet (no more skullcrack to represent), or he charms two creatures and you have one mana open. Either way he goes down to 2 with you having lethal on board. Even if you had mana up to represent skullcrack, he would be reving if he has it. When a controll player has no play in hand except rev, he will rev into open mana since he will die next turn anyways. Your bluff will be called 100% of the time. Might as well play with your pants down, no matter which route you take imo.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:05 am

Got back from my two week break and won two SE event, current rank No. 25 (should be 23) and current rating 1800+ limbo (its 1843 atm).

Here is the list:

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn for MODOs Ghost and Monsters]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice

Creatures 08
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments and Removal 05
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Mizzium Mortars

Burns 24
4 Magma Jet
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike

Sideboard 15
4 Toil // Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Banishing Light
1 Keening Apparition
1 Mutavault
1 Reprisal
1 Fated Conflagration[/deck]

Explanations:

I'll post my SB plan later once I organised it, in regard with my videos if you guys have time - please click on the adds which pop up so I can get extra money.

Unrelated, I wonder if it's easier or harder for Z or any Australian really to get better at magic then it is for someone in the US.

Did you watch the Grand Prix Melbourne? The Australian magic scene is cringe worthy . . .

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:31 pm

yeah that one guy plays his cards upside down

HK1997 · Postby **HK1997** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:44 pm

Ran another two dailies with the deck I posted last with a slight adjustment after the first one yesterday:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
3 Chained to the Rocks

1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Shock
2 searing blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
2 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Keening Apparition
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Banishing Light
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Toil/Trouble
1 Chained to the Rocks
[/deck]

I liked Mizziums as I have not seen any BWs running around yet so out goes the reprisal for one mizzium in the side. So far the deck has taken me 11-1, loosing 2-1 to Junk monsters, where I just didnt draw as well as he did, playing all the usual including planeswalkers Domri and Elspeth, hitting
multiples of them each game. In the last game: After getting rid of one Domri, 2 Elspeths + tokens, wiping his board including a SBD with mizziums he managed to top deck a palukranos and ulti it for 3, wiping my YPs off and taking the game, as I sadly had nothing left for big daddy.
Other matchups included Mono Red devotion, RG devotion (faced the same guy twice. Once in the finals of the first then the first round of the second daily. I imagine he wasn't happy), Mono B devotion (x3), UW control
Some games were blowouts, some were lucky. One thing of note is that I Ulti'ed a Chandra and hit the UW player for 18 dmg with 3x trouble

. Shame on you for not playing Dspheres and me having two boros charms to counter planar cleansing

So far I can recommend this list for online play when on the european time zone. 3
Dailies so far with two 4-0's and one 3-1. Also one 3-0 and one 2-1 SE from yesterday when I tried double queuing for the first time... That loss vs Naya in the finals may have been due to time since I went down to 1 minute but I think I may have lsot it anyways. I learned my lessen. I will never ever double queue again!

I've gotten my 35 QPs for this season with that last daily so that's it for me until the pack prices go back up. But I'd like to read about what others experience might be when piloting this list.

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn

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