[Primer] Boros Burn

[Lightning_Dolt]

"SCG list is bad."

Only went undefeated in a tournament full of stacked players.

Played clearly suboptimal cards.

Act of Treason is strictly worse than Harness by Force.

[Purp]

Double mutavault hands happen. Rarely is striving Harness going to happen.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Did it this weekend.

[Purp]

Does rarely mean never?

[Lightning_Dolt]

Wild Guess, really?

[Elricity]

6 lands happen enough that it's a better card. We've all overloaded a mortar on occasion.

Also, I find it unlikely you're winning a game you can't hit [mana]RR[/mana] regardless.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Does rarely mean never?

I've played ten matches with the card, boarded it in 3 times, cast it twice (both game winners) once with strive.

[Lightning_Dolt]

6 lands happen enough that it's a better card. We've all overloaded a mortar on occasion.

Also, I find it unlikely you're winning a game you can't hit [mana]RR[/mana] regardless.

Card is decent on 5 as well, attack with vault and there guy ended one of my matches vs Black.

[magicdownunder]

Double mutavault hands happen. Rarely is striving Harness going to happen.

While I agree striving isn't common, any deck which plays [mana]RR[/mana] has no reason NOT to run a card which is strictly better cause you never know you may strive once a fullmoon.

That said I do dislike how people dismiss SCG results outright.

[Toddington]

Dictate seems poopbutts in Burn, why is it even being considered? Especially over Stormbreath vs. UW

It doesn't do anything until the second Burn spell (because you wasted a card casting Dictate, which could have been a Burn spell), and costs 5.

It's a bit different with creatures (YP$ and tokens) in the mix, but still seems loose and clunky.

[Elricity]

Eidolon of Great Revel has been helpful against Junk (when I'm ahead or at start)

[Tyrael]

I agree it's a good card, but is it maindeckable?

[Elricity]

I'm not ballsy enough to try it because I haven't tested it vs mono blue. I'm sure it's bad against monsters and obviously vs fast aggro if you expect to see that. The rest has felt ok.

I'm testing this:

[deck]

Creature
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Burn
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Exile
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Land
7 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence



Sideboard
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Banishing Light
3 Toil // Trouble
1 Wear // Tear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Won't be able to test it today online because I'm not buying Revel until it goes down a bit. Having to pay 5.5 for 2 banishing lights was enough.

[GoblinWarchief]

I realy don't like Knoxville's winning decklist. Why run a 2 mana sorcery spell that doesn't even draw extra cards? I understand that it may improve card quality, but with this deck you A) don't want to tap mana on your turn except for creatures B) usually don't have many dead cards to pitch to wild guess because every land is important until the 5th one (phoenix + burn spells) or even 6th one. You could pitch chained to the rocks against U/W but these corner cases don't justify running the card over another burn spell.

Eidolon fills a role similar to ash zealot... sometimes is better , sometimes is worse, but lots of times he will immediately eat a removal spell dealing two damages just like ash would have done. I prefer ypung pyromancer to both of them.

Dictate of the twin gods is a shitty card, you'd better do something much more impactful if you want to spend 5 mana.

Act of treason over harness by
force makes no sense, i hope he just didn't have harness or didn't know about its existence

Overall the decklist seems tuned too much against aggro decks (4 eidolon, 4 firedancer, 3 searing blood) but this may be the reason he won.... And of course, congrats to him despite all my critics

[Elricity]

SCGs are commonly more creature heavy so that could very well justify his decision there. As Z hinted, the meta at SCG is supposedly quite different than what you would see at at GP or MTGO.

So I'm playing the daily event and I've run into 2 old MBC decks. Really thought I would see more GB control. I didn't need assemble although one game was a squeaker.

Also occurs to me I will need add 2 mana confluence to the decklist above because of the RR spell on turn 2. Been forgetting about that.

[BiddingMaster]

Ok seriously? I suggest eidolon and give you guys a plan on how we use the card and what our plan is when we board in other cards and you all think that is terrbile and not worht any testing. Then all of a sudden the card shows up in a decklist of an accomplished player and now its a card that is worth testing? I think that is downright insulting that I caught so much flack and now everyone is on the "Hey guys I think we should test out eidolon now." W/e. Wallow in your own ignorance. Im done ranting for now. Ill continue posting my lists that I think are good and give you guys the result of my testing.

I made one final last minute adjustment that I am glad that I made. i took out flames of the firebrand and added back in the searing bloods. All but one of my bx devotion opponenets had lifebane over nightveil. Other than that I ran the same list i posted earlier.

As for the open event this weekend this is how
eidolon went down.
r1 bg devotion/win
There were many situations where eidolon did its job. In this mu its primary job is to deal some damage but most importantly its there to suck up removal so our yps get max value. Almost every single time they snap killed it taking 2 leading me to t3 phoenix then t4 yp then burn spell. I never stated eidolon would win this mu by itself but be performed his duty admirably
r2 naya hexproof/win
Against hexproof they just took a million damage from eidolon then i skullcracked, attack, skull crack, attack game. its was basically a bye for me. Didnt even need to have banishing light for their enchantments. Drew it but didnt need to cast it.
r3 bg devotion/lose
Lost a very close game and still eidolon did the job that he did in the first match. He did some damage led me to use a spell t3 then t4 yp and spell up. All in all I lost the games the same way that I lose alot of games to this mu. Also the green splash really did nothing against me. i didnt see harness in the
first or second match so I cant tell you how good or bad the card is. Also didnt see it in testin either.
r4 mirror/win
In the mirror we both had eidolon and my assessment of this mu was correct. Its basically the same game we were playing from the earlier decklists we had. we should already know how to play, sideboard and play sided games against it because its still the same. I won burn skullcracks helixes and chandra.
r5 bw midrange/win
this was basically a bye. The way they beat us it to grind ous out of a game and eidolon makes them pay for each dudle spell. All three games came down to top deck mode where I was able to play the game game they were but better.
r6 junk/win
Basically a bye because they play the same game that bw midrnage does. Eidolon forces them to take damage for every durdle card that wasnt a threat and died due to me top decking burn spells and poitnig them at their face. Also phoenix does all the work in this matchup as well. Gotta give my shout out to phoenix, the best fucking
card in the deck.
r7 junk/win
Played out the same way as the previous deck but he had advent of the wurm which allowed him to steal game one because I had three eidolons so i was constantly attacking and spending a spell to kill wurms. Games 2-3 were a win.
r8 bg devotion/lose
Probably the only competent bg devotion player i faced all day. I never drew the skullcracks in game one and he had tripple devour flesh gaining him 10 life off of demon and grey merchant along with 2 life with the merchants trigger. So if it takes a 12 point life swing and having to have pack rats with 2 mutas to beat me I think that proves my decklist is awsome because his life total at the end of the first game was 7. I also played eidolon t2 whcih ate a burn spell. If he had not gained a literal ass ton of life or I had skullcrack I wouold have won game 1. Also i mulled to 6 had a one land which was a scry land. The opener was the same thing except it was mountain instead of temple of triumph. Game 2 played out like my decklist
wants it to. T2 eidolon with phoenix and burn spells and skullcracks. game three was interesting because he went t4 demon on the play after t-1, t2 hitting both of my chained from my hand. I did not have an eidolon either. All I really needed in that game was one more land to allow me to play a burn spell and a harness to take his demon since I drew 2 of them that game. I was under preassure and wasnt able to sequence any plays together to make a dent in his game plan.
r9 gw aggro/lose
Umm im a little embarrassed about this matchup because after talking to purp at the event I realized a horrible mistake and allowed my fear to take over. Anyway it came down to game three after eidolon dealt some damage and I gained some tokens to block to protect chandra but i couldnt handle quadruple voice of resurgence. i also only drew 1 banishing light the whole third game and I dont think there is any point where I can beat 4 voices on the opposing side of the field. I should have sided better but looking back at it if
i had sideboarded correctly I still would have not been able to deal with 4 of them.

All in all if I didnt have eidolon I would probably have bombed out of that tournament. I won almost every single match off the back of eidolon and if it had been a shock I would have just died. The card overperformed for me in my decklist and single handedly almost took me to top 8. So far im very impressed with the way that it allows me to play the aggro game and be able to quickly and efficiently switch to the sligh or control game and that is where he really shines. Its just so goddamned efficient that I will never dump my holy trinity of yp/phoenix/eidolon and noone should break up the dream team because any combination where to drop one of those is sure to put you in a worse position to win the game. After the tournament I talked with a few people and this is the new decklist that I am going to start running with from now on.

[deck]Biddingmasters rw sligh[/deck]

Im also going to go back and edit my previous on how I planned on sideboarding because I proposed a sideboard that I did not follow to the letter. Im not sure about didctate of the twin gods and I would not maindeck it. Im using it in place of harness for the same reasons. The way my list works is I can get them down to a low enough life total to where if I slam dictate on t5 if they dont have a grey merchant there should be no way for them to win the game. Also im liking the idea of running blood baron of vizkopa
against mono black . Which might actually work better than toil and trouble/dictate vs control and would also be able to be boarded in vs the small aggro decks. I would like some thoughts on that plan because it would be freaking awsome for them to not have an answer to blood baron. I just think it might be a turn or two too slow because if they grey merchant after we drop him they might jsut be able to get ahead of us. Im not sure though but ill be tesging out different configurations of this list.

[Rhyno]

Ok seriously? I suggest eidolon and give you guys a plan on how we use the card and what our plan is when we board in other cards and you all think that is terrbile and not worht any testing. Then all of a sudden the card shows up in a decklist of an accomplished player and now its a card that is worth testing? I think that is downright insulting that I caught so much flack and now everyone is on the "Hey guys I think we should test out eidolon now." W/e. Wallow in your own ignorance. Im done ranting for now. Ill continue posting my lists that I think are good and give you guys the result of my testing.

lol, did anyone even say they were never going to test it? I know I for one said I thought it would be bad and that I was skeptical
of it. People were also making some very sketchy arguments supporting it. I can't believe how hostile people can get over different evaluations of cards.

[Elricity]

People were skeptical because the testing you did wasn't against decks people were exactly concerned with. Someone managed to trial by fire it so it got my attention.

After all, we just did the same thing to Z with Harness =p.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Build a reputation and people will listen to you more. You haven't been around long enough for us to know how seriously to take you. We have to wade through people suggesting titan's strength etc.

Your plan to fit it was also to cut shock for it, which is our best card when playing control. YP$ also kind of demands shock.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Also, thinking about dictate, I dislike it.

Against control, do you really want vaults attacking you for four? Just a thought.

[BrainsickHater]

The ceiling on Eidolon is very high; it could be worth consideration. I just don't have the card and don't feel like it would be good enough to go pick them up and test them out.

In other news, Harness by Force is the real deal. I was chumping a 10/10 and an 8/7 trample (playing vs dredge); Harness by Force the trampler, put him to 5, end step magma jet, untap Lightning Strike. In the late game, Harness is a 5+ damage burn spell with a very high ceiling, and it works as advertised.

Also, why is UW all of a sudden insanely tough? Because of Nyx-Fleece Ram? Lots of UW builds aren't even siding the card, and even if they are they rarely board more than a couple copies, which they have to draw. It also dies to Wear // Tear, which I think is a card we should board at least 2 of; it has way more targets than it used to. If we board two Wear // Tear, we have the same likelihood of drawing our answer to Nyx-Fleece
Ram as they do to drawing the Ram.

The matchup which I think has gotten a lot more difficult for us is Bx Devotion. Even if our opponent isn't splashing green, I don't like the idea of boarding Assemble the Legion hoping that I dodge a decently popular splash of a very prevalent deck. I often feel that if I don't draw a strong hand against Black Devotion then I have a low chance to win the game. Even if I have a strong hand, Bx devotion's strong hands can still give me a run for my money; a plethora of discard will do that. I think that putting Stormbreath Dragon in our SBs to fight UW is devoting slots to a matchup we don't need help in very badly. Plus, tapping out on 5 for Stormbreath seems like a good way to get Revelation'd for a million.

I know Dictate of the Twin Gods is a pretty janky card, but it might be what we want. It boosts the power level of our deck drastically, giving us a new "I win" button in place of Assemble the Legion. It could also come in during matchups
which Assemble couldn't, namely UW Devotion. Tapping out on 5 for Stormbreath seems pretty good, but I thinking holding up Skullcrack mana, and then EOT playing Dictate when they tap out for something big is pretty damn good.

@Lightning_Dolt I don't think we care at all if a control deck hits us with mutavaults. There's pretty much zero pressure on our life total until they play Elspeth, at which point we usually win the game.

[Elricity]

Having tried Pyromancer's Gauntlet for a while, I'm not sold on dictate either. Big red deck? Maybe? I haven't been impressed with any of the dictates.

[Purp]

"Im not sold on a card that I have yet to test"

[BiddingMaster]

Also, thinking about dictate, I dislike it.

Against control, do you really want vaults attacking you for four? Just a thought.

sry. I didnt mean to say that I would board dictate against control. It was for the mono black matchup and maybe the junk midarange matchup(sketchy) and monsters.

[BiddingMaster]

Ok seriously? I suggest eidolon and give you guys a plan on how we use the card and what our plan is when we board in other cards and you all think that is terrbile and not worht any testing. Then all of a sudden the card shows up in a decklist of an accomplished player and now its a card that is worth testing? I think that is downright insulting that I caught so much flack and now everyone is on the "Hey guys I think we should test out eidolon now." W/e. Wallow in your own ignorance. Im done ranting for now. Ill continue posting my lists that I think are good and give you guys the result of my
testing.

lol, did anyone even say they were never going to test it? I know I for one said I thought it would be bad and that I was skeptical of it. People were also making some very sketchy arguments supporting it. I can't believe how hostile people can get over different evaluations of cards.

Ok so far three people who have been some of my greatest opponents on this issue are now putting eidolon to the test because of the scg open even though I suggested the card and gave reason for it and what our game plan was. Also none of these post caught any flack at all but when I posted something everyone and their grandmother had something to say about it. here are the posts. I understand that I am a newcomer and some people should be listened to rather than others but how is seeing eidolon being ran at an scg open with no context of why the card is there when I posted a myriad of context and got shit on for it.

by mdu/ Did he dodge Gxx midrange decks (Junk, Jund, Gr,
etc....)?

Or was Revel much better they I give it credit for (I current don't believe it should be in the MD)?

by elricity/ Curious that Eidolon was working out. Would be funny if we were all wrong at once./second post/Eidolon of Great Revel has been
helpful against Junk (when I'm ahead or at start)

MDU, that was a lot of game 1 exiles. Not surprised it was feeling odd.

by purp/ YP$ is terrible vs junk midrange, firedancer is infinitely better. eidolon does the same thing
and I have stated this and given back up to prove it

[NotARobot]

Ok seriously? I suggest eidolon and give you guys a plan on how we use the card and what our plan is when we board in other cards and you all think that is terrbile and not worht any testing. Then all of a sudden the card shows up in a decklist of an accomplished player and now its a card that is worth testing? I think that is downright insulting that I caught so much flack and now everyone is on the "Hey guys I think we should test out
eidolon now." W/e. Wallow in your own ignorance. Im done ranting for now. Ill continue posting my lists that I think are good and give you guys the result of my testing.

lol, did anyone even say they were never going to test it? I know I for one said I thought it would be bad and that I was skeptical of it. People were also making some very sketchy arguments supporting it. I can't believe how hostile people can get over different evaluations of cards.

Ok so far three people who have been some of my greatest opponents on this issue are now putting eidolon to the test because of the scg open even though I suggested the card and gave reason for it and what our game plan was. Also none of these post caught any flack at all but when I posted something everyone and their grandmother had something to say about it. here are the posts. I understand that I am a newcomer and some people should be listened to rather than others but how is seeing eidolon being ran at an scg
open with no context of why the card is there when I posted a myriad of context and got shit on for it.

by mdu/ Did he dodge Gxx midrange decks (Junk, Jund, Gr, etc....)?

Or was Revel much better they I give it credit for (I current don't believe it should be in the MD)?

by elricity/ Curious that Eidolon was working out. Would be funny if we were all wrong at once./second post/Eidolon of Great Revel has been
helpful against Junk (when I'm ahead or at start)

MDU, that was a lot of game 1 exiles. Not surprised it was feeling odd.

by purp/ YP$ is terrible vs junk midrange, firedancer is infinitely better. eidolon does the same thing
and I have stated this and given back up to prove it

Obviously results speak volumes louder than a bit of text on a message board. Don't get salty! It doesn't bring anything of value to the table! Just keep going forward with explaining your reasoning in concise posts with stuff to back it up and people will start listening to you.

[magicdownunder]

Yep, you should also keep in mind you suggested cutting Shock and were testing against Gx Devotion and BR humans.

I still think Revel isn't great in those MUs since we're already good in those MUs (my argument remains the same) I do like Revel against Junk, Bx and Control though.

[Rhyno]

Just because the card might be better than some people initially thought doesn't mean that every argument in support of it is suddenly validated.
People made some arguments in support of the card that other people disagreed with. That's really all that happened.

I've heard some terrible justifications for Satyr Firedancer, that card is playable, but it doesn't mean the bad justifications are correct.

Also, re-evaluating cards based on tournament success is completely normal and expected, it's the opposite of "wallowing in ignorance."

EDIT: And to be fair, even though I think Dictate is pretty awful and I'm not excited about Eidolon, I still picked up my playsets the day of the pre-release. Hell, I even have the dumb promo dictates where Mogis looks like an American football mascot.

[Elricity]

Yep, you should also keep in mind you suggested cutting Shock and were testing against Gx Devotion and BR humans.

I still think Revel isn't great in those MUs since we're already good in those MUs (my argument remains the same) I do like Revel against Junk, Bx and Control though.

That's where I'm using it.

And fair point Purp. A bit too many things for me to test right now while I'm also trying to grind DEs on my day off.

[Elricity]

I'm still streaming by the way if anyone is interested.

[magicdownunder]

List and Thoughts

---

I 3-0 a SE avenging Rhyno

Beating Kibler Junk (which I think is a bad version of Jeff Hoogland Junk), Naya Hexproof and UBR Control (it was horrible don't ask) testing:

[deck=MDU's Revel Burn]Lands 23
3 Mutavault
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Eidolon Of The Great Revel

Enchantments 05
2 Banishing Light
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants 24
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard 15
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Toil // Trouble
3 Eidolon Of The Great Revel
3 Satyr Firedancer
1 Reprisal
1 Chandra,Pyromaster
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Wear/Tear[/deck]
n
My thoughts on the list:
Banishing Light is much chunkier then I expected, I hard ever have turns where I can slam the card down and do something else - so I may move one revel up and BL down for tomorrows test run

Eidolon Of The Great Revel is MANY TIMES BETTER then I expected (when your ahead) which is usually all the time Bx and Control.
I'm thinking about running more of them MD since they create a semi-lock on your Opp. which is good no matter the MU (my only problem is that they look really awkward when your staring down at a full board).

Satyr Firedancer I've always loved these card, since G and U devotion sees play online I like running things which just gives those decks the bird (granted my SB'ing for these MU are difficult to gasps so just watch the videos when I release them).


Reprisal BW and Junk are hard MUs, Reprisal is good against them. . . . .

NOTES for fellow online players:
Banishing Light are now SELLING for 1.6 I brought them for >1 I highly recommend either buying them NOW or waiting for 1-2 week then they WILL drop in price
Eidolon Of The Great Revel I brought for 2 this morning, they 3 now..... same as with light this card SHOULD drop in price.

Here was the first drafted I tested with (many many changes are still going to happen).

SE Report 7082822

(Not worth watching, though revel makes short work of him G2)
G1 R1
Grixis Control kitchen brew vs Revel Burn
G1 R2 Grixis Control kitchen brew vs Revel Burn

(I think Jeff's Junk is better then Kibler's Junk)
G2 R1 Kibler Junk vs Revel Burn
G2 R2 Kibler Junk vs Revel Burn
G2 R3 Kibler Junk vs Revel Burn

(I mess up and still win, Revel as was a monster G2)
G3 R1 Naya
Hexproof vs Revel Burn
G3 R2 Naya Hexproof vs Revel Burn

Also make sure to watch, like and sub my new animation channel

today's animation

---

Serra Angel was never quite the bomb when Baneslayer was around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi_qpJBmJCs

Comments, subs and like would be great

[BiddingMaster]

Just because the card might be better than some people initially thought doesn't mean that every argument in support of it is suddenly validated.
People made some arguments in support of the card that other people disagreed with. That's really all that happened.

I've heard some terrible justifications for Satyr Firedancer, that card is playable, but it doesn't mean the bad justifications are correct.

Also, re-evaluating cards based on tournament success is completely normal and expected, it's the opposite of "wallowing in ignorance."

EDIT: And to be fair, even though I think Dictate is pretty awful and I'm not excited about Eidolon, I still picked up my playsets the day of the pre-release. Hell, I even have the dumb promo dictates where Mogis
looks like an American football mascot.

yes but all they did was merely see it in a decklist with no context how the card is good. how is seeing a card with not context all of a sudden make the card worth testing where it was a joke the day before. What would have happened if I was the only one running the card and came back and said that the card was good but I didnt quite get there in the top 8. I would have been met with fierce resistance yet again. I just dont see how the card being in a winning decklist makes it an auto test card. I cant tell you how many times I have read tourney reports of poeple who top 8 and said well this card sucks so if i had to do it all over again I would change it. Just because the card is in a winning decklist doesnt make it an auto test card. what if they also ran titans strength and still got top 8?

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ brainsick: that's what I thought until a control deck wrecked me with mutavaults and I lost the finals of the Cup. I'll upload the feature match video when I get my hands on it. The ram was also pretty annoying.

[Valdarith]

We need to clean some of this up.

1) Let's not all get caught up on what someone did or did not suggest that just so happened to be included in a winning decklist. This is one tournament, and an SCG Open at that, so we need to be careful here. Furthermore, we need not take offense to people having a sudden change of heart after eventually seeing the usefulness of a card that was once shot down. Don't take it personally! Instead, take it as vilification of your card evaluation skills.

2) I haven't been replying to this thread too much because I feel the post quality has diminished some. I know Z feels the same way, but he's much more abrasive about these things than I am. There seems to be a lot of group think going on here which can be dangerous. We need to understand that there is no set 75 and that this deck should be fluid based on playstyle and meta changes.

3) I backed Z's choice of Harness by Force in an
earlier post and it's nice to see it finally getting some consideration. Anything that can do 5+ damage consistently with such a cheap cost is good for a burn deck. Increasing your average damage per card is exactly the thing a burn deck wants to be doing. Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone and learn to play with cards that have an obviously high power ceiling in order to improve as a player. I think Harness by Force is exactly where you want to be against decks like GR Monsters and Mono Black Devotion, especially now that Chained to the Rocks is losing a lot of its luster due to more prevalent removal for it.

4) I've been a fan of Eidolon since it was spoiled but I questioned its usefulness for Standard. I really like it in red devotion builds but I haven't determined if it's where burn wants to be right now. I'd think you would want a more creature dense list for it to work optimally.

5) We need to be careful about dismissing SCG Open results. It's certainly no GP but it is
nonetheless a competitive environment from which solid conclusions can be drawn. Whether we want to admit it or not, results from these events shape metagames. There's no reason to be elitist about the fact that a lot of the decks in these events are suboptimal.

6) Dictate of the Twin Gods is a very polarizing card and the limited evaluations of the card in this thread have disappointed me. First of all, this card is nothing like [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card]. It has a much larger effect on your burn spells than Gauntlet, it increases the damage from your creatures (including Mutavault), and you can flash it in during your opponent's turn. It is MUCH better than Gauntlet.

Here is the proper way to evaluate a card. We're going to list the pros and cons of Dictate of the Twin Gods for Burn.

PRO: pumps damage from ALL of your sources. Mutavault, Young Pyromancer, tokens, burn spells, etc.
PRO: is not a creature.
PRO: can be played on opponent's turn.
PRO: very likely
wins the game the turn it is played.
PRO: can win the game out of nowhere.
CON: costs five mana.
CON: bad topdeck when you are searching for that final burn spell.
CON: pumps damage from opponent's sources too, so you generally need to win the game the turn you play it (and you usually will so this point is a push).
CON: can be a winmore card at times. In other words, a lot of times we are winning by turns five and six anyway and this card may as well be another burn spell.
CON: suboptimal against small creature decks.

I've really come to like this card after thinking about it for a bit. Points 4 and 5 really solidify it for me. Cards that win the game when played AND can win me games I ought to lose are something I always want in my deck. Burn has been looking for high impact cards like this to increase its power and I think this really has some potential. It's a brute force card and not really a finesse card so it's likely that it favors certain playstyles over others, so I can appreciate some
people being turned off by the notion of playing this card, but we need to be a little more objective with our evaluation of cards if we're going to improve as players.

[BiddingMaster]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=226480#p226480:n3fqniku]Valdarith » Sun May 11, 2014 7:01 pm[/url:n3fqniku]":n3fqniku]We need to clean some of this up.

1) Let's not all get caught up on what someone did or did not suggest that just so happened to be included in a winning decklist. This is one tournament, and an SCG Open at that, so we need to be careful here. Furthermore, we need not take offense to people having a sudden change of heart after eventually seeing the usefulness of a card that was once shot down. Don't take it personally! Instead, take it as vilification of your card evaluation skills.

2) I haven't been replying to this thread too much because I feel the post quality has diminished some. I know Z feels the same way, but he's much more abrasive about these things than I am. There seems to be a lot of group think going on here which can be dangerous. We need
to understand that there is no set 75 and that this deck should be fluid based on playstyle and meta changes.

3) I backed Z's choice of Harness by Force in an earlier post and it's nice to see it finally getting some consideration. Anything that can do 5+ damage consistently with such a cheap cost is good for a burn deck. Increasing your average damage per card is exactly the thing a burn deck wants to be doing. Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone and learn to play with cards that have an obviously high power ceiling in order to improve as a player. I think Harness by Force is exactly where you want to be against decks like GR Monsters and Mono Black Devotion, especially now that Chained to the Rocks is losing a lot of its luster due to more prevalent removal for it.

4) I've been a fan of Eidolon since it was spoiled but I questioned its usefulness for Standard. I really like it in red devotion builds but I haven't determined if it's where burn wants to be right now. I'd think you
would want a more creature dense list for it to work optimally.

5) We need to be careful about dismissing SCG Open results. It's certainly no GP but it is nonetheless a competitive environment from which solid conclusions can be drawn. Whether we want to admit it or not, results from these events shape metagames. There's no reason to be elitist about the fact that a lot of the decks in these events are suboptimal.

6) Dictate of the Twin Gods is a very polarizing card and the limited evaluations of the card in this thread have disappointed me. First of all, this card is nothing like [card:n3fqniku]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card:n3fqniku]. It has a much larger effect on your burn spells than Gauntlet, it increases the damage from your creatures (including Mutavault), and you can flash it in during your opponent's turn. It is MUCH better than Gauntlet.

Here is the proper way to evaluate a card. We're going to list the pros and cons of Dictate of the Twin Gods for Burn.

PRO: pumps damage from
ALL of your sources. Mutavault, Young Pyromancer, tokens, burn spells, etc.
PRO: is not a creature.
PRO: can be played on opponent's turn.
PRO: very likely wins the game the turn it is played.
PRO: can win the game out of nowhere.
CON: costs five mana.
CON: bad topdeck when you are searching for that final burn spell.
CON: pumps damage from opponent's sources too, so you generally need to win the game the turn you play it (and you usually will so this point is a push).
CON: can be a winmore card at times. In other words, a lot of times we are winning by turns five and six anyway and this card may as well be another burn spell.
CON: suboptimal against small creature decks.

I've really come to like this card after thinking about it for a bit. Points 4 and 5 really solidify it for me. Cards that win the game when played AND can win me games I ought to lose are something I always want in my deck. Burn has been looking for high impact cards like this to increase its power and I think this really
has some potential. It's a brute force card and not really a finesse card so it's likely that it favors certain playstyles over others, so I can appreciate some people being turned off by the notion of playing this card, but we need to be a little more objective with our evaluation of cards if we're going to improve as players.[/quote:n3fqniku]

I think this forum what I have seen from page like 90+ is just pure poison. We are all jamming our ideas down each other throats one after another and alot of times people are not even posted knowledge just conjecture. I guess I am getting too hot headed but I was more directing my anger to the other people who have newcomer status and are just here poking holes in everyone's analysis of cards. We desperately need a system of courtesy because at the moment there is none and there needs to be. If we are going to improve we do need a more efficient system for evaluating other peoples ideas so I agree with you val.

[warwizard87]

We need to clean some of this up.

1) Let's not all get caught up on what someone did or did not suggest that just so happened to be included in a winning decklist. This is one tournament, and an SCG Open at that, so we need to be careful here. Furthermore, we need not take offense to people having a sudden change of heart after eventually seeing the usefulness of a card that was once shot down. Don't take it personally! Instead, take it as vilification of your card evaluation skills.

2) I haven't been replying to this thread too much because I feel the post quality has diminished some. I know Z
feels the same way, but he's much more abrasive about these things than I am. There seems to be a lot of group think going on here which can be dangerous. We need to understand that there is no set 75 and that this deck should be fluid based on playstyle and meta changes.

3) I backed Z's choice of Harness by Force in an earlier post and it's nice to see it finally getting some consideration. Anything that can do 5+ damage consistently with such a cheap cost is good for a burn deck. Increasing your average damage per card is exactly the thing a burn deck wants to be doing. Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone and learn to play with cards that have an obviously high power ceiling in order to improve as a player. I think Harness by Force is exactly where you want to be against decks like GR Monsters and Mono Black Devotion, especially now that Chained to the Rocks is losing a lot of its luster due to more prevalent removal for it.

4) I've been a fan of Eidolon since it was spoiled but I
questioned its usefulness for Standard. I really like it in red devotion builds but I haven't determined if it's where burn wants to be right now. I'd think you would want a more creature dense list for it to work optimally.

5) We need to be careful about dismissing SCG Open results. It's certainly no GP but it is nonetheless a competitive environment from which solid conclusions can be drawn. Whether we want to admit it or not, results from these events shape metagames. There's no reason to be elitist about the fact that a lot of the decks in these events are suboptimal.

6) Dictate of the Twin Gods is a very polarizing card and the limited evaluations of the card in this thread have disappointed me. First of all, this card is nothing like [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card]. It has a much larger effect on your burn spells than Gauntlet, it increases the damage from your creatures (including Mutavault), and you can flash it in during your opponent's turn. It is MUCH better
than Gauntlet.

Here is the proper way to evaluate a card. We're going to list the pros and cons of Dictate of the Twin Gods for Burn.

PRO: pumps damage from ALL of your sources. Mutavault, Young Pyromancer, tokens, burn spells, etc.
PRO: is not a creature.
PRO: can be played on opponent's turn.
PRO: very likely wins the game the turn it is played.
PRO: can win the game out of nowhere.
CON: costs five mana.
CON: bad topdeck when you are searching for that final burn spell.
CON: pumps damage from opponent's sources too, so you generally need to win the game the turn you play it (and you usually will so this point is a push).
CON: can be a winmore card at times. In other words, a lot of times we are winning by turns five and six anyway and this card may as well be another burn spell.
CON: suboptimal against small creature decks.

I've really come to like this card after thinking about it for a bit. Points 4 and 5 really solidify it for me. Cards that win the game when played AND can win me
games I ought to lose are something I always want in my deck. Burn has been looking for high impact cards like this to increase its power and I think this really has some potential. It's a brute force card and not really a finesse card so it's likely that it favors certain playstyles over others, so I can appreciate some people being turned off by the notion of playing this card, but we need to be a little more objective with our evaluation of cards if we're going to improve as players.

I think this forum what I have seen from page like 90+ is just pure poison. We are all jamming our ideas down each other throats one after another and alot of times people are not even posted knowledge just conjecture. I guess I am getting too hot headed but I was more directing my anger to the other people who have newcomer status and are just here poking holes in everyone's analysis of cards. We desperately need a system of courtesy because at the moment there is none and there needs to be. If we are
going to improve we do need a more efficient system for evaluating other peoples ideas so I agree with you val.

Of course we are all hotheaded and stubborn, we are red mages. You get a room full of pyromages together and you will have arguments, but results are what matters and analyzing those results. Could any one of us be wrong about a card evaluation, of course. Take people switching stances on card revaluation as a complement and move on. Very rarely around here will anyone nut hug you if it turned out you were right.

[Elricity]

Here's what I just got finished running. Just the old deck plus 2 banishing light while everything else still comes down in price.

2 Daily events; 3-0 split and 3-1

---

[deck]
Creature
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
Burn
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Exile
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
7 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence

Sideboard
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Banishing Light
4 Toil // Trouble
1 Wear // Tear
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Satyr firedancer
1 Reprisal[/deck]

I don't think I ever saw an opponent cast a Journey card but I was happy with the two banishing lights. I can certainly see a more aggressive player playing 0-1 but as you can see, I tend to play slower
which causes me problems with toil/trouble. I didn't find any card to be bad but I definitely don't like relying on trouble vs control. I could see going down to 1 Chandra if you're trying to speed up as well. Reprisal and wear did what they did. Some of the removal is mix and match.

Standard Event 1
Game 1 VS MBC
Game 2 VS RDW
Game 3 vs MBC with blue splash for Far/away
Game 4 Split

Standard Event 2

Game 1 vs Jund Monsters
Game 2 vs BW Control
Game 3 vs White Weenie
[url=http://www.
twitch.tv/elricity/b/528043156]Game 4 vs UW control[/url]

I did a little bit of testing with Harness and I didn't have the success others were having but it could have just been the decks I was playing up against.

I'll try out dictate next. It would be amusing if my original plan with Gauntlet actually is good now. I'm aware they're entirely different cards and I'm getting over a bias of trying Gauntlet for 3 months (I'm terrible, I know). I might combine it with Harness which might be lunacy but we'll see. I'll hold off saying anything else until I grind with it.

I did play with revel some against control and liked that quite a bit. I think it's stronger vs GB Control than Firedrinker because charm can't sweep it and it costs them life to remove it. I didn't like it vs monsters but I assume I'm not supposed to there. Plus, I like having a turn 2 threat again. So here's what I'm tempted to try next because I have a much harder time with my
control matches than I should.

[deck]
Creature
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Burn
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock
2 Flames of the Firebrand
Exile
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
Land
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana confluence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Sideboard
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Banishing Light
3 Toil // Trouble
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Reprisal[/deck]

That only gives me 6 solid cards vs monsters and dredge which might be a bad idea but I think I'm at the point where I want all my boros charms for enchantment removal and carytid busting. I'd just cut flame/skullcrack(or shock). I end up with a huge amount of cards to side in for control so I might well be overstacking this. Flames could be searing blood in this build to buff monsters.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Looks solid Elcicity.

On UW: Both the UW decks I played against were playing enough rams to have multiples in play. The sustained lifegain every turn is really bad for us. Eventually they grind us out and we're on top decks and they beat us down with mutavaults or keyrunes or elspeth soldiers. They also have last breath which is hard for us because it exiles one of our phoenixes or one of their dudes for four life gain. Esper is much easier to deal with.
I think I want a couple dagrons for the non-black control decks.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm also going to go ahead and say it before you guys see the video. I had been playing magic for 15 hours on a couple hours sleep by the time the finals rolled around. It was 11:30 pm when we got started and I didn't play very well. My draws weren't what I needed, but I also feel I punted. My opponent was really good and beat burn in the quarter finals as well. I remember he baited my skullcrack and I fell for it. Not my proudest moment. Just wanted to warn you guys in advance before you jump all over me and call me a noob

[zemanjaski]

Random Zem post incoming. Val get's his post address because Val is my bro. Other random feedback at the end and WELL FUCKING DONE JS! YOU BEAUTIFUL MOTHER FUCKER. Also, get at me on facebook jackass.

We need to clean some of this up.

1) Let's not all get caught up on what someone did or did not suggest that just so happened to be included in a winning decklist. This is one tournament, and an SCG Open at that, so we need to be careful here. Furthermore, we need not take offense to people having a sudden change of heart after eventually seeing the usefulness of a card that was once shot down. Don't take it personally! Instead, take it as vilification of your card evaluation skills.

Its an SCG

2) I
haven't been replying to this thread too much because I feel the post quality has diminished some. I know Z feels the same way, but he's much more abrasive about these things than I am. There seems to be a lot of group think going on here which can be dangerous. We need to understand that there is no set 75 and that this deck should be fluid based on playstyle and meta changes.

Pretty much x 2. I don't have the time to soften my thoughts. Also note that every card in your deck is subject to re-evaluation as there are shifts in your OWN meta. Some examples:
- two vs three Chained to the Rocks MATTERS as a meta moves from more to less creature dominated
- firedrinker satyr + harness sideboard plan is better if there are lots of Bxx midrange decks, but the toil // trouble plan is more broadly applicable in an unknown meta

You've got to be adaptable and also critical. You cannot fucking blindly copy a list here and expect to do well with it. Especially if it is one of mine because
the red gods have not given you unholy young pyromancer value powers.

3) I backed Z's choice of Harness by Force in an earlier post and it's nice to see it finally getting some consideration. Anything that can do 5+ damage consistently with such a cheap cost is good for a burn deck. Increasing your average damage per card is exactly the thing a burn deck wants to be doing. Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone and learn to play with cards that have an obviously high power ceiling in order to improve as a player. I think Harness by Force is exactly where you want to be against decks like GR Monsters and Mono Black Devotion, especially now that Chained to the Rocks is losing a lot of its luster due to more prevalent removal for it.

I agree. Now that we cannot realistically achieve inevitability in the matchup, better to take a new approach that as much as possible minimizes their new strengths. Importantly, going back to Firedrinkers forces them to Abrupt
Decay them early, making Chains a little less weak.

4) I've been a fan of Eidolon since it was spoiled but I questioned its usefulness for Standard. I really like it in red devotion builds but I haven't determined if it's where burn wants to be right now. I'd think you would want a more creature dense list for it to work optimally.

It sucks in creature dominated metagames. Evaluate accordingly.

5) We need to be careful about dismissing SCG Open results. It's certainly no GP but it is nonetheless a competitive environment from which solid conclusions can be drawn. Whether we want to admit it or not, results from these events shape metagames. There's no reason to be elitist about the fact that a lot of the decks in these events are suboptimal.

I will be as dismissive as I like of the play quality, but yes, for some unknown reason these events shape metagames. Be aware of that.

But seriously fuck me these players are bad.

[
quote]6) Dictate of the Twin Gods is a very polarizing card and the limited evaluations of the card in this thread have disappointed me. First of all, this card is nothing like [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card]. It has a much larger effect on your burn spells than Gauntlet, it increases the damage from your creatures (including Mutavault), and you can flash it in during your opponent's turn. It is MUCH better than Gauntlet.

Here is the proper way to evaluate a card. We're going to list the pros and cons of Dictate of the Twin Gods for Burn.

PRO: pumps damage from ALL of your sources. Mutavault, Young Pyromancer, tokens, burn spells, etc.
PRO: is not a creature.
PRO: can be played on opponent's turn.
PRO: very likely wins the game the turn it is played.
PRO: can win the game out of nowhere.
CON: costs five mana.
CON: bad topdeck when you are searching for that final burn spell.
CON: pumps damage from opponent's sources too, so you generally need to win the game
the turn you play it (and you usually will so this point is a push).
CON: can be a winmore card at times. In other words, a lot of times we are winning by turns five and six anyway and this card may as well be another burn spell.
CON: suboptimal against small creature decks.

I've really come to like this card after thinking about it for a bit. Points 4 and 5 really solidify it for me. Cards that win the game when played AND can win me games I ought to lose are something I always want in my deck. Burn has been looking for high impact cards like this to increase its power and I think this really has some potential. It's a brute force card and not really a finesse card so it's likely that it favors certain playstyles over others, so I can appreciate some people being turned off by the notion of playing this card, but we need to be a little more objective with our evaluation of cards if we're going to improve as players.[/quote]

I look forward to seeing notes on your testing of this card.

nTo the rest of you: