[Primer] Boros Burn

[zemanjaski]

I blew the finals of an 8-man, twice missing two damage because of dumb sequencing errors; he survived at 2 life and 1 life in my 1-2 loss. Sometimes I am so bad at this game.

[Kaitscralt]

define sometimes

[zemanjaski]

So I've had the opportunity to test a bunch, here's my assessment of the various SB cards:
- Assemble the Legion: over performed. I've won every game that I've drawn it outside my opener; my SB strategy against MBC is to cut all creatures and grind them out with Phoenix so Assemble works perfectly in that shell. Will go up to 2 copies so I see it more.

- Blind Obedience: was down to 1 copy. Likely cut. It's getting worse and worse as Burn has adapted to beat it; GR Monsters is on decline, Mono U is picking back up. These all devalue obedience, and it still needs to be in your top right cards or it's terrible. It was very good for a while but I suspect I was having ungodly success with it because I was better prepared / more skilled in the mirror anyway. It's particularly bad on the draw.

- Chained to the Rocks: still amazing, the 3/1 split between main and board is proven correct I feel.

Chandra, Pyromaster:
has been over performing, though I don't think I can justify two copies in the 75. Maybe she moves to the maindeck? She's very good against MBC and Esper after all; reasonable against Burn and any deck with random x/1s; got a lot better with more creatures in the deck and Glare of Heresy in the SB (for Dsphere).

- Glare of Heresy; first copy was amazing. Went to two, still excellent. Hits Blind Obedience, Dsphere, Fiendslayer Paladin while working as Chained / Mortars 7-8 against GW and Naya. I think two is just right.

- Mizzium Mortars; bad flame slash is still a great card.

- Mutavault; key component in many of my SB strategies, fantastic addition.

- Rakdos Cackler; I've been happy with it. The protections have been relevant and it fits well into my beatdown plan in the mirror. For now I'm happy with it.

- Spark Trooper; goes up in value as we move away from Blind Obedience because it combats BOTH GR and Mono U; so more utility from the slot. I like a single if we have four helix main or
a pair if we have three helix.

- Young Pyromancer; completing the play set is sometimes relevant; I like having the option.

I'll rethink the SB later tonight, but those are my current evaluations.

[Elricity]

@ Pedros - Blind Obedience is the tech of choice for shutting down Ghost Dad and Whip. BW is a hard match up though. Satyr Firedance DESTROYS MonoU but hardly anyone is playing MonoU. If it makes a comeback simply run the Dancer

I've been getting it all night along with other aggro decks. Very tempted to see if I can slip them back in for a bit. I'm very tempted to try working them back in the sideboard. I can cut a shock, move 4th YP in, cut a BO, and the spark trooper. Although the spark trooper very much saved my ass one game against mono blue, it's about the only thing I use it in and I want dancer there more. It also puts me up to 8 cards to board in for
blue when previously, I only had 7. So...doing that for a bit.

Holding off on searing blood. I agree it's great in the burn mirror but I personally have no more room to make. And I agree with Z, the singleton assemble has won me 3 games I had no business winning. I'll try his no creature version on the draw.

[DXI-Edge]

Blind obedience has been getting worse and worse for me as well

considering going to this sideboard

[deck]
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Mutavault
1 Young Pyromancer
2 Spark Trooper
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Rakdos Cackler
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks
[/deck]

that means, against mono black we go
-4 Ash Zealot
-2 Shock
+2 Assemble
+1 Mutavault
+1 YP
+1 Chained to the Rocks
+1 Chandra

[DXI-Edge]

Still debating on whether or not I want 4 shock, 3 Helix or 3 shock, 4 Helix main....

[DXI-Edge]

Against control that would be
-4 Shock
-3 Chained to the Rocks
+1 Young Pyromancer
+4 Rakdos Cackler
+1 Chandra, Pyromaster
+1 Glare of Heresy

could see cutting a magma jet for a mutavault

[magicdownunder]

If your not running creatures for the Bx Devotion MU (unless you have the same set-up I'm using for draw/play) why are you running Rakdos Cackler over Drinker?

Also wouldn't you guys have trouble against BW, Esper, Junk and Jund with any sort of Whip and/or Obzedat, Ghost Council set-up without BO? Burn is largely excepted as part of the meta game now so I'll imagine people will bring in these types of cards to combat the threat (I bring this up because I hate the feeling of helplessness (shiver... modern...) thus I like having at least a shimmer of hope in my SB somewhere (even 1x is enough)).

[DXI-Edge]

Cackler is for the mirror, cuz we turn into PyroRed.

Cackler never came in vs. Mono-Black. Its bad. Dont do it

And I NEVER bring in BO against Esper. And rarely against Mono-Black. Like if they have Whip+Obzedat its game regardless. or pretty fucking close lol

[magicdownunder]

I meant Esper Midrange not control (sorry I thought it would of been obvious), BO does stop Whip hard I've seen Z win an impossible game with it against this uniquely cool RB Aggro deck (lols )

In regards to Cackler vs Mono-Black, its actually not bad - I was running them when Bx still using cure which imo is many times worst then BB (outside them raping your Assemble tokens) at the time I sported a 1900+ rating just playing Rw (its lower now because was trying to make hexproof, Modern burn and BR work). I'll admit with the limited creatures were running they're rather weak on the draw however having that T1 play is huge (on the play, its almost always at least 4 damage worth)- thus imo changing strategies based on Draw/Play is viable: etc vs Z I brought in BO on the play and took them out on the draw.

I think its important to
recognize that there is more then one way to play a deck.

[Pedros]

I still dont understand how you beat burn mirror Z without blood. Do you ignore creatures at all and just burn him out?

[warwizard87]

so is the deck completely off the fistblade plan?

[LaZerBurn]

I wouldn't be surprised if its a playstyle thing; i've killed two people with ultimating Chandra this morning, so my approach is probably a bit different.

I'm really looking forward to some vids so I can see if I can get a grip on the different style. Right now it doesn't 'feel' as though I have an option as far as the style of play goes which is somewhat frustrating as my current style is coming up short.

That said there seems to be no pattern to what I see on MTGO; I've played 18 matches this season against 14 different decks! I've only faced Control once and it was UWR. MBC I've seen twice, BrC once and BW once. Yesterday I lost to a selection of random nonsense, it felt like I was playing in the TP room (except I was hemorrhaging
tix!) with a teched up version of the deck in match ups where I'd have been much better equipped with 4 SFD and 4 Searing Blood, which I agree are worse than the current config against the Tier 1 decks.

@ Zem and DXI - thanks for the SB evaluations Zem and the plans DXI, I'm starting to understand what is what with the 1 offs configuration. I've found the shift really difficult (G1 I'm at 61%, G2/3 I'm at 40%) as it has highlighted my lack of understanding of the value of cards in certain matches. I think this also in part explains my "Oh no I wish I had SFD and Searing Blood" reaction as he is an obvious answer - the current 75 has answers but they are flexible and require more skill to implement against random decks. Without a full SB plan in front of me I struggle to think on my feet! In the long term this is great as it will make me a better player, short term it's costly and rather frustrating

[warwizard87]

this is the side I been on.

[deck]4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Spark Trooper
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Mutavault
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Stormbreath dragon[/deck]

I like having the dragon with the extra land in the board to brute force some match ups. kind of want to have two.

to be honest I haven't loved Chandra....also some times I look at Glare and wish it was wear/tear instant speed has been relevant every now and then.

[pikachufan2164]

so is the deck completely off the fistblade plan?

As long as Blind Obedience continues to be a sideboard staple in opposing control decks, yes. Losing the buffed haste turn makes Firstblade horrible.

[warwizard87]

so is the deck completely off the fistblade plan?

As long as Blind Obedience continues to be a sideboard staple in opposing control decks, yes. Losing the buffed haste turn makes Firstblade horrible.

ah makes sense.

[Platypus]

Three Boros Burn decks in the top 8 at GP Beijing! Decklists on Wizards event coverage page.

[warwizard87]

so the cat is completely out of the bag lol

[Mr. Metronome]

how would you go about sideboarding with this list vs RW Devotion?

Lost game 1 (and should have won it, but I misclicked and went to declare blocks before making my YP Token to chump with >:(

[warwizard87]

WHAT? 4 Staff of the Death Magus.......what a odd choice. has to be something better then that.

[warwizard87]

wow 13 percent of the day 2 was boros burn, that's actually huge.

[Mr. Metronome]

That's awesome to hear. Deck is super good.

Also, I just 3-1'd the daily.

Round 1: BW Midrange, loss. Not particularly close, I mulled and drew poorly.

Round 2: No show. Not close either

Round 3: Esper Control, lose game 1, crush games 2 and 3. After burning him to death he said "Nice luck dumbsack". That's a new one.

Round 4: RW Devotion. Felt pretty sketchy, barely lost game 1 because apparently the old client defaults to passing priority on their declare attackers. *shrug*. Brought in 2 Spark Trooper for games 2 and 3 and they just crushed him.

[warwizard87]

if the burn deck keeps topping we may want to conceder peek eruptions out of the side maybe for mirror, especially on the play.

3 mono black, 3 boros burn(one splashing black) 1 esper agro, 1 u/w devotion. the r/w/b burn deck only ran 4 dudes main 4 phoienx that's all. basically blanking removal

Jian Zhong looks like he just copy and pasted the older list. how good is the staff vs us? it cant be that good right? 3 drop so it wont do any thing until turn 4? if it actualy does end up being good ( I doubt it) running wear/tear over glare might be a consideration.

[Toddington]

What matchups does the the 4th Mutavault not come in for? Is it something you don't want G1, but as part of a counter response to opposing SB strategies?

[jsilv]

Yuuya's deck has 4 Staff of the Death Magus, what a champ.

[LaZerBurn]

Ok, in keeping with the FoS tradition of at least trying to think/thinking for yourself I'd greatly value some feedback on my latest 1 off's SB plan as my win rate post SB is horrifically bad! Am I missing something in my evaluation or is variance and/or bad play just killing me?

Zem Burn List

---

[deck]Zem Burn[/deck][/spoiler:
3srh5y15]

Vs Bx Devo

---

Vs MonoB
ON DRAW
IN 2 Assemble 1 CttR 1 Chandra 1 Mutavault 1 Chandra 1 YP
OUT 4 Ash 3 Shock

ON PLAY
IN 4 Rakdos Cackler 2 Assemble 1 CttR 1 Chandra 1 Mutavault 1 Chandra 1 YP
OUT 3 Shock 4 Magma Jet 2 Warleader's Helix 2 Boros Charm

Charm fits better here with the Aggro plan, the life gain from Helix is relevant in the later game as while 'Crack prevents them gaining life it doesn't stop us losing it.

Vs G/R Jund MonoU

---

Vs G/R Jund MonoU
IN 1 YP 2 Mizzium Mortars 1 Chained the The Rocks 1 Spark Trooper 1 Mutavault 1 Chandra
OUT 3 Skullcrack 4 Ash zealot,

I'm keeping in 1 Crack as we don't have an 8th card to bring in and it fits better with the 'stall up the ground with YP tokens and go over the top' strategy than Ash.

Vs Esper

---

Vs. Esper:
IN 2 Glare 4 Cackler 1 Mutavault 1 Chandra
OUT 4 Shock 3 Chained to the Rocks 1 Magma Jet

Cackler
for early pressure, Chandra and Glare for later game. Some number (I like 2) of CttR and MM (for Jet) may be useful depending on what they bring in.

Vs Mirror

---

Vs. Mirror:
IN 1 YP 4 Cackler 1 CttR 1 Chandra 1 Mutavault
OUT 4 Skullcrack 4 Boros Charm

I like the flexibility that Cackler brings to the 75 this strategy still seems very counter intuitive given the FoS tradition of playing Control post board in the mirror, especially against decks that do play Control and run Searing Blood. With YP in the MD we simply don't have the option to play Control with this 75 though unless I've missed something obvious, again!

[magicdownunder]

I'll like to point out that the All in Creature plan hasn't really been picked up by non-DtR members yet so you guys will be dealing with 3-4 Bloods and just Phoenixes and maybe Ashes thus BO is still good for the most part in the mirror (I have a anti-DtR plan on the R/x/x thread because I keep pairing with clan members...).

[magicdownunder]

Yuuya's deck has 4 Staff of the Death Magus, what a champ.

More reasons to run creatures against Bx

[warwizard87]

Yuuya's deck has 4 Staff of the Death Magus, what a champ.

More reasons to run creatures against Bx

really am liking the cacklers there, 3 doom blades adnd ultimate price almost half his removal cant it it, very nice.

[Pedros]

So we should play staff of the flame magus for mirrors following Yuuya?

Btw if anyone starts playing this card, burn would be quite bad.

[LaZerBurn]

It'll see play for sure, it's too much of an auto win not to

[warwizard87]

I don't know just change glares to wear/tear and it seems fine

[montu]

So we should play staff of the flame magus for mirrors following Yuuya?

Btw if anyone starts playing this card, burn would be quite bad.

My opp got 2 of these on the board against me this morning (first round of DE).

Let's just say it was a losing battle . . .

Next 2 matches (DE then SE) were against GWx Hexproof. It wasn't the best morning.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Fair to say we broke the meta?

[zenbitz]

It was Owen Turtlewald who suggested Staff vs. Burn a couple weeks ago in some mothership or CFB article.

[montu]

It was Owen Turtlewald who suggested Staff vs. Burn a couple weeks ago in some mothership or CFB article.

Article for reference:

"Lastly there is quite a lot of Burn being played on Magic Online and that matchup is razor-close every time. I feel like my deck should have the advantage with creature removal, maindeck Gray Merchant of Asphodel, and four Duress sideboard, but if you are concerned with the matchup and are willing to make a radical change to shore it up then I suggest cutting the 4 Temple of Deceit for 4 Swamp and jamming 2 or 3 Staff of the Death Magus in your sideboard. I don't think Burn can ever beat that card."

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ion-redux/

[montu]

Also . . .

"4 Duress in my sideboard is a reaction to the amount of burn decks being played on Magic Online. I love Duress against the Sphinx's Revelation decks as well and I am happy to play four, but with Burn also now a part of the metagame, four Duress sideboard is mandatory."

That's exactly why you can't keep a high-land hand against Bx. (A lesson hard learned for me.)

[tzir]

Embarrassing question: what's our game plan against that stupid dredge deck that's poking around? It seems like such a good matchup, but the couple times I've faced it I've lost.

[rcwraspy]

Had this hand come up in a local tournament yesterday, and before saying whether I kept or mulled I'd like to hear what you all would do and why.

EDIT: Sorry, context: It was game 1 against unknown opponent and I was on the draw.

Mutavault
Ash Zealot
Warleader's Helix
2x Temple of Triumph
Boros Guildgate
Sacred Foundry

[montu]

Had this hand come up in a local tournament yesterday, and before saying whether I kept or mulled I'd like to hear what you all would do and why.

EDIT: Sorry, context: It was game 1 against unknown opponent and I was on the draw.

Mutavault
Ash Zealot
Warleader's Helix
2x Temple of Triump
Boros Guildgate
Sacred Foundry

Q1: If you're playing against Bx Devo or Esper and they Thoughtseize you T1, what are your chances of winnng?
Q2: If you're vs RW Burn and they Searing Blood your Zealot, how likely are you to catch up?
Q3: If you're playing against Monsters and they play Sylvan Caryatid on T2, do you think you can win?

I've paid for this learning with tickets and a lot of tears. You can have it for free.