[Primer] Boros Burn

[DerWille]

Am I thinking of the old PyroRed lists then? I might be... derp.

In that case, go with the cackler. If it's only for control matches with black in them, blank as many cards as possible. No reason not to.

Do you think that Everflame Eidolon will fill the same role that Stonewright did in INN-RTR or will it do something else?

[zemanjaski]

Same role, might even be better. That's no small feat. It's fireball when you bestow it, then they wrath you and you fireball them again. VERY STRONG card.

[zemanjaski]

I don't think Everflame Eidolon is good in this shell at all though; we don't like tapping out as a sorcery, and if we want a fireball, there's a LOT of cool things to do with Aurelia's Fury.

[Purp]

Siding 1 drops in vs mono b now z?! I still cringe that cut so many magma jets

[JohnnyfnB]

Everflames ability can be used at anytime. I like the bestow a lot. On Phoenix it takes out NVS. On AZ it takes out a lot too. There are times when you flood or don't draw a burn spell. If you have a creature already it's a good pull, on his own, I agree it's poopish.

[zemanjaski]

Siding 1 drops in vs mono b now z?! I still cringe that cut so many magma jets

Still experimenting, I can't always rely on Asuka to get the job done.

[zemanjaski]

Everflames ability can be used at anytime. I like the bestow a lot. On Phoenix it takes out NVS. On AZ it takes out a lot too. There are times when you flood or don't draw a burn spell. If you have a creature already it's a good pull, on his own, I agree it's poopish.

Everlfame's ability can be used any time, but I am only excited about it during the combat phase on my turn

[zemanjaski]

Purp where are you at with testing?

You're probably off being too good looking or having a birthday or something you huge jerk.

[magicdownunder]

I love it, Owen is recommending Staff of the Death Magus to fight against burn - so we're not the only one suggesting horrible cards like RoR

[zemanjaski]

If you look at his main deck, it is tailor made to lose to my 75 but beat Hexproof. Thanks Owen, I appreciate it!

[Lithanial]

Saw mention of Everflame and "not quite the right deck" and had to jump in. I've been using a variant of this deck that's more creature heavy and just goes a bit bigger than the pure burn variant by using Chandra and Firemane Avengers - it handles the mirror pretty well as if they don't answer the creatures you get some battalion helix's off and if they don't answer Chandra you can build to her ultimate, either way you divert attention from your life total.

All in all the deck is hoping for a really good Boros god in the next expansion and if we get that, then Everflame slots right in and we may finally have a use for Legion's Initiative in standard.

[zemanjaski]

God I wish Firemane Avenger was remotely playable. Maybe next set?

[Lithanial]

It's working pretty well - not well enough to be a 4 of yet (would need legion's initiative for that so she can get to 4+ toughness and dodge a few more removal spells) but I run 3 in the main and if the opponents deck is light on removal it's unstoppable; if it's not surviving to attack then i side them out for spark troopers.

[zemanjaski]

My tech > your tech.

[zemanjaski]

18-1-1 in the last week.

[BurnItAllClean]

Won the GPT at 7-0-2.

Congrats Zem!

[Elricity]

Maybe Cackler > Firedrinker right now?

Firedrinker can potentially hit harder, but you're unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 activations out of him (though every activation is free value); usually you're better of spending your mana other ways (often you get 1 activation on turn 2 and then no more).

Compare to Cackler who dodges Doom Blade and Ultimate Price after sideboarding against both MBC and Esper; that's very relevant right?

Discuss.

Test it but cackler has always been a disappointing card for me. That it dodges two removal spells is ok but theyhave 3 other maindeck removals now to take care of cackler. They'll hit your other creatures with them anyway unless you get some weird 3 cackler opening hand thing. If it threw off a
curve or something, sure, but in my experience, it's never mattered when there are 3 other maindeck removal spells that hit it.

On the flipside, I've found those 1-2 activations of drinker to be extraordinarily valuable. The feeling of having cackler blanked by things like specter, blood baron, etc is heartbreaking. Just threatening it opens up so many lines of play.

There is no current matchup I can think of where I would rather have cackler than satyr based on the jackal pup clause either.

[BurnItAllClean]

Maybe Cackler > Firedrinker right now?

Firedrinker can potentially hit harder, but you're unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 activations out of him (though every activation is free value); usually you're better of spending your mana other ways (often you get 1 activation on turn 2 and then no more).

Compare to Cackler who dodges Doom Blade and Ultimate Price after sideboarding against both MBC and Esper; that's very relevant right?

Discuss.

Test it but cackler has always been a disappointing card for me. That it dodges two removal spells is ok but theyhave 3 other maindeck
removals now to take care of cackler. They'll hit your other creatures with them anyway unless you get some weird 3 cackler opening hand thing. If it threw off a curve or something, sure, but in my experience, it's never mattered when there are 3 other maindeck removal spells that hit it.

On the flipside, I've found those 1-2 activations of drinker to be extraordinarily valuable. The feeling of having cackler blanked by things like specter, blood baron, etc is heartbreaking. Just threatening it opens up so many lines of play.

There is no current matchup I can think of where I would rather have cackler than satyr based on the jackal pup clause either.

I've found the same thing. Ol Cacks is just disappointing.

[Jonnymagic]

@zem what matchups are you liking YP the best -- control/mono b/mono u? I love YP and have been playing him in those matchups and loving it. I swapped YP for satyr.

[Purp]

Cackler is better vs Esper imo. Whether or not we want to side in 1 drops vs mono black is another issue.

[Aodh]

Does Esper bring in 4 Doom Blades versus our version?

[Valdarith]

Cackler vs mono black depends on their sideboard. They think we'll only be running Phoenix postboard (a reasonable conclusion). Do they have the sideboard slots to take out all their removal? I'd imagine so given that UW and Esper control are a thing, though they leave in Hero's Downfall in that matchup.

If we think they're going to side out all their removal, it makes sense to next level them and bring in Cackler. That said, the removal they do have effectively reads "gain two life", so they may feel it's worthy to keep some removal in to slow down Phoenix.

If we're on the YP$ plan, I think it's obvious that we also want a one drop to bring in. Firedrinker Satyr dies to Ultimate Price and Doom Blade but can dodge Last Breath in the UWx matchup with mana open.

I feel like the mono black matchup is already highly favorable if bringing in YP$, so I favor Firedrinker Satyr here.

[Purp]

There will be at least 2-3 LB and some combination of 4 Doom Blade/Ultimate Price. I don't think the argument that Satyr dodges LB is valid. On t2, they will be last breathing our ash zealot, or saving it for phoenix. If they have two mana open, im not pumping my guy anyway. I prefer to Magma Jet on t2 if its between that or pumping for 1 dmg.

[Valdarith]

It's only really relevant in terms of topdecks, so we're being very picky here, but that's the only real separation between Cackler and FDS. It ultimately depends on how mono black is sideboarding against this deck, which I'm not privy to, but again, I think that match is highly favorable anyway so the difference between the two is a wash there.

[rcwraspy]

Maybe Cackler > Firedrinker right now?

Firedrinker can potentially hit harder, but you're unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 activations out of him (though every activation is free value); usually you're better of spending your mana other ways (often you get 1 activation on turn 2 and then no more).

Compare to Cackler who dodges Doom Blade and Ultimate Price after sideboarding against both MBC and Esper; that's very relevant right?

Discuss.

No, I'm still on FDS > Cackler against MBD and Uw/x

Yes, you blank Ultimate Price and Doom Blade with Cackler, but what does that really do? First, they traded a 2 mana spell to deal with your 1 mana spell if that was FDS. Second, they don't have that spell to play against your Viashino,
YP$, Ash Zealot, Phoenix - whatever you want to stick around longer.

That extra point off FDS pump (or more late game) is cash money for a deck that vomits cards out of the hand so quickly. I think it provides great mana usage and the ability to take our game longer.

[BurnItAllClean]

Maybe Cackler > Firedrinker right now?

Firedrinker can potentially hit harder, but you're unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 activations out of him (though every activation is free value); usually you're better of spending your mana other ways (often you get 1 activation on turn 2 and then no more).

Compare to Cackler who dodges Doom Blade and Ultimate Price after sideboarding against both MBC and Esper; that's very relevant right?

Discuss.

No, I'm still on FDS > Cackler against MBD and Uw/x

Yes, you blank Ultimate Price and Doom Blade with Cackler, but what does that
really do? First, they traded a 2 mana spell to deal with your 1 mana spell if that was FDS. Second, they don't have that spell to play against your Viashino, YP$, Ash Zealot, Phoenix - whatever you want to stick around longer.

That extra point off FDS pump (or more late game) is cash money for a deck that vomits cards out of the hand so quickly. I think it provides great mana usage and the ability to take our game longer.

I'm with you on FDS. Games with UWx can go a little long, and we need something to dump mana into. It's better to have that outlet and risk dies to doomblade.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I just realized that when I gave away my box of commons and uncommons it had my YP$'s in it. Fuck.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I've been out of the loop, so sorry if this has been answered. What meta changes made public opinion of YP$ change? Last I heard he was horribly positioned, I'm gone for a few days no everyone is playing him.

[Elricity]

Drown in sorrow was out of the meta and everything else is a wee bit slow on answering him. Also, we reacted to everyone playing blind obedience.

[LP, of the Fires]

I've been out of the loop, so sorry if this has been answered. What meta changes made public opinion of YP$ change? Last I heard he was horribly positioned, I'm gone for a few days no everyone is playing him.

All the control decks are boarding 2 BO now so viashino firstblade doesn't do anything anymore.

[Lightning_Dolt]

That makes me sad.

[Toddington]

> acquires foil viashino firstblade playset
> meta shifts
> mfw

[Lightning_Dolt]

Same. Jp foils now useless.

[BurnItAllClean]

> acquires foil viashino firstblade playset
> meta shifts
> mfw

That's rough. Luckily I held on to my foil playset of Young Pyro. Don't worry I'm sure Firstblade will shift back into popularity in a few weeks.

[zemanjaski]

Speaking to Ariel Nagy (top 16 GP Buenos Aires) and he has recently been having success with switching Ash Zealot for Young Pyro in the main (freeing up a tonne of sb space) which loosens his RR requirements on two, so he has two temple of silence in place of the two boros guildgate. That seems pretty interesting to me.

[zemanjaski]

G0D_L1K3 approves the Cackler switch, says he likes going all in on creatures on the play in the mirror; makes their play of turn 2 obedience look extra bad.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I thought we had established that was bad?

I'm gone for a few days and everything I know about Magic is now invalid. Should probably just sell my shit so I can save weight in my luggage.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Speaking to Ariel Nagy (top 16 GP Buenos Aires) and he has recently been having success with switching Ash Zealot for Young Pyro in the main (freeing up a tonne of sb space) which loosens his RR requirements on two, so he has two temple of silence in place of the two boros guildgate. That seems pretty interesting to me.

You already know my opinion on this.

[zemanjaski]

I am trying to be less dismissive of the ideas of other players - at least where they can show me results - than I have been in the past.

I have been very happy with Young Pyromancer when playing online; it is coming in a lot so whether that reflects a meta shift or me improving with its use I don't know, but it has been fantastic of late. Perhaps Ash Zealot is just getting worse? Mono U is more popular again, GR is less popular and Blind Obedience is seeing play - these features of the meta online push me towards Young Pyromancer.

Once that happens, I have substantially less mana resquirements for turn 2, so I could see a 1 Boros Guildgate, 1 Temple of Silence split. This would mean I don't need Assemble in the board, giving me a full four more cards to play with.

I am at least going to test it, because if it works, the upside is
substantial.

[Lightning_Dolt]

That makes sense, but in this deck, YP$ is a four drop, isn't he? How does that effect the play of the deck? Do we have enough T2 plays?