[Primer] Boros Burn

[zemanjaski]

Thanks BL, that's all I needed to hear.

[zenbitz]

I do like the idea of maximum virtual card advantage. Does it make sense to board in 8-12 creatures game 2 (assuming they board out their removal). It seems like UW game 1 would be tough. Main deck Anger?

[Aodh]

Creatureless burn has always been entertaining for me. Would Rwb be better? We could run Dreadbore over Chained to the Rocks, then some number of Erebos, Slaughter Games, Rakdos's Return in the 75.

[zemanjaski]

OK, for now, let's leave the creatureless burn deck aside and maybe come back to it later. I have spoken with a bunch of players and they're telling me its an emphatic no.

[zemanjaski]

Thing is, I can usually make RR on two right now, so no matter what, the percentages will be going up. I am much more concerned with casting Ash Zealot on two than Searing Blood anyway.

[Purp]

The trouble hands for me are the ones that have Ash, Mountain, Muta..

[zemanjaski]

Yup, I always go for the Muta swing and then draw the second red. So salty.

[lorddax]

Zenbitz hit me up if you decide to run with that. Might be a seedling of a DtR app

As for creatureless burn, Im with Z on shelving it as it seems to fall strictly into what Conley Woods said today:

When you are a deck builder, ideas that don't quite make it are a part of what you need to deal with. Those that can't seem to accept this tend to baby their decks and force bad creations into existence. If you can step back and realize that some of, most of, your ideas are not going to work, the entire process is a lot more enjoyable for everyone.

On the Boros Burn manabase issue, do we think we can tweak the count up or down or is the rest of the deck pretty set in stone? Are we looking to optimize to drop AZ on t2 or ANY RR spell on t2? Im inclined to look at AZ hitting turn two because its the more
restrictive and also can lead to the most optimization. Think Im going to mess with the calcs on that end.

[zemanjaski]

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/c ... d-rw-burn/

[DerWille]

A lot to go through. I haven't been able to play as much as I've wanted to lately, but here are my thoughts:

@Mana base
I'm in favor of swapping out a mutavault for another land. My biggest problem with it has been that I can't make use of multiple mutavaults. This deck seems like it wants to keep at least 2 mana open by turn 4 or 5 for skullcrack for a lot of match ups. With only 4 lands, I only have the spare mana to activate one while keeping that protection up. Whether that new land is a guildgate or a mountain I think depends on the sideboard. If our side board is stacked with white cards the guildgate is better. It's not unlikely that 17 or more of our cards have a [mana]W[/mana] symbol in them post sideboard.

Using ham's article, we net a +3% from 10 to 11 [mana]W[/mana] sources on turns 3 and 4 (What we care about - playing Firstblade on turn 3 and chaining a demon on
turn 4).

@Creature-less burn
Seems like a terrible idea. Doesn't this deck just want to play control with its burn while plinking with a phoenix/zealot until it assembles enough points of burn in hand where it then goes for the throat?

@Phoenix is Amazing
This bird is one of the pillars of the deck. In this deck, unless they're playing Last Breath/D-Sphere/Ooze this bird never dies. Against control, it's the absolute worst card for them to go against. Even against mono-black it's crazy good. Running it into Specters or Demons is fine because we can just get it back again. Any CA we lose in a 2 for 1 is immediately made up with a single burn to the face. Searing blood just ups the CA even more.

@Wish We Had a Mana Sink
I really do. This deck wants to have a fair amount of mana so it can play creatures while leaving burn up, but flooding kills it just as quick. It's a bit wasted but what about some number of Hammer of Purphoros? The haste is wasted but making 3/3's out of excess land (
usually only want 5 or 6) could be enough.

[zemanjaski]

Mutavault is already a mana sink.

[DXI-Edge]

According to this: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ur-spells/

Manabase B is better. It gives us 19 red sources, which is ideal for having RR on turn 2, while also haveing 11 white sources for 1 white on turn 4, which is when we always need it.

although mana base B would allow for more consistent Ash Zealots on turn 2, having access to more red AND white i think is huge, especially since we're running 9 white cards in the board.

[zemanjaski]

Mana base B only has 10 white sources. Please quote your preferred mana base.

[zemanjaski]

CFB Reader suggestion: Wild Guess.

Discuss.

[lorddax]

Remember that it's not 18 red sources we need, it's having RR untapped on t2. Tackling this now, but 18 is the source num needed for just access to RR t2. The issue now is the gate to temple count to ensure the untapped state

[Lightning_Dolt]

Why would we want it? It's neutral card advantage and doesn't do damage or apply pressure. It's terrible.

[lorddax]

This problem intrigued me so much that it's 3am and I'm coding a simulation because the math gets redonk to follow accurately. Zenbit's fault for reminding me that Karstens code is public domain. Hopefully will have an answer for you guys or at least results before Thursday

[zemanjaski]

Ash Zealot vs. Young Pyromancer, let's discuss.

Ash Zealot is harder to cost on turn 2 (as we have been discussing). Having Young Pyromancer means we can likely keep the 4th Mutavault (or maybe we do want the extra coloured sources anyway).

It is unclear which is better against GR Monsters; Ash Zealot is more aggressive and probably better against Courser or Polukranos draws. Young Pyromancer is probably better against all other draws (eg: Caryatid).

Ash Zealot is better against Control, if you can cast it on time; so despite it being better in the abstract, YP$ catches up a little for being easier on the mana (increasing the range of playable hands). YP$ is brutal against non-jace draws too, which is worth mentioning, forcing wraths, which you can take advantage of.

Ash Zealot >>> YP$ against Mono U, MBC and BW, not close.

So, what does everyone think? I think I might be returning to my signature
card tbh.

[zemanjaski]

Because YP$ would be weaker against some draws from GR, I would -1 Shock, +1 Chains in the main, so as to hedge a little more against Courser and Polukranos.

[LP, of the Fires]

Sorta saw the YP discussion coming up after you mentioned wild guess.

[zemanjaski]

Zem discussing YP$ is only ever just around the corner.

[zemanjaski]

Have you read the fucking card?

[zemanjaski]

VALUE

[RedNihilist]

And then we suddenly found ourselves back to Walter White builds.

[DerWille]

Mana base B only has 10 white sources. Please quote your preferred mana base.

Mana base A, post side board potentially 17/37 cards or 45% of the non-land cards have a [mana]W[/mana] in them. I want the highest chance possible to play 45% of my deck in games 2 and 3 on time.

CFB Reader suggestion: Wild Guess.

Discuss.

It's nice that it helps find cards, but I think the deck would rather just burn our opponent's faces off. While Young Pyromancer and Wild Guess have good synergy together, but I feel like that's trying to build a standard version of the modern UR Delver list. It might be possible if there were some more 1 mana cantrips/looting effects and cards
that key off instants being cast, but that's building an entirely different deck than this one.

[zemanjaski]

Except with 25 or 26 spells now.

[deck]PyroBurn[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
2 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

9 Mountain[/deck]

[Mr. Metronome]

Didn't you initially cut Young Pyromancer from the list for Ashley since she fits better with the "kill you with damage" plan?

Though I do think there is some merit to a Pyromancer build atm, having played Valdarith's recent PyroBlack list.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, thought about it. Prefer Zealot right now against an open field, though maybe, online, with MBC and BW being ~30% of the meta, YP is better.

[RedNihilist]

My earlier comment wasn't meant to be negative or sarcastic in any way, mind you - I loved Walter White.

Now, don't get me wrong, but I've moved to monoblack some months ago while keeping tryin' out different builds, and when I tested an earlier YP$-burn build I didn't "feel" it to be as strong as the late Ashley build.
I'm not a dedicated burn player, so my opinion can't be as valuable as many of you guys' is, yet I felt like sharing this because maybe you can make something out of it anyway.

The problem is that Ashley puts up a lot of early pressure, while YP$ sets up longer, grindy games.
Walter White was a build that was resilient enough to do both, while I guess that a burn deck focusing on one of the two stances can be more effective at it.

Now, looking at it from outside the box, Ashley-burn seems REALLY strong at what it does, and I'm really suspecting that going back to YP$ would be more
cute than useful.

[zemanjaski]

Thanks man

[Guttler]

Z, doesn't YP meet all the requirements of a good sideboard card?

It's great vs Mono B Devotion or random weenie decks, but either worthless of lackluster vs Mono-U or UW'x Control and is usually pretty bad vs G/r Monsters.

That said, board slots are precious and you must decide if the win% of the current lists warrants the boost from any extra technology.

[zemanjaski]

Sure does, but I don't really have the space for it, and the MBC matchup is already ~60%, whereas my SB cards are aimed at matchups which aren't great.

[zemanjaski]

Alternate SB:

2 blind obedience
2 chained to the rocks
4 firedrinker satyr
4 satyr firedancer
3 viashino firstblade

Now vs. GR:
-4 zealot, -4 skullcrack
+2 blind obedience, +2 chained to the rocks, +4 firedrinker satyr

That's more cohesive than what I've played before, but you still get blown out by turn 2 courser > turn 3 Domri; so you need to play around that.

Having access to Firedancer would help against mono u and any sort of green aggro deck, or green devotion.

Discuss.

[HK1997]

I like your suggestion to bring the dancers back into the sideboard. It makes the GR matchup slightly bit more conditional, wheras before the spark troopers and mizzium mortars were good on their own, but I think the benifit in other matchups could be worthwhile. I must say that from my own small sample size of matchups, the gw hexproof deck with Fiendslayer has popped up a lot. Mono black has been #1, xR devotion and GR Monsters #2, Hexproof and Jund Monsters #3. Last 4 days I have yet to see a UW control deck, which has me puzzled even more.
As I said, small sample size ~30 matches, but I have read of a several red mages having the same personal experience. Or maybe my time zone in europe just prefers a different meta on mtgo than you aussies and americans...
I'll definitely give the dancers a go tonight.

[DDDebeli]

Alternate SB:

2 blind obedience
2 chained to the rocks
4 firedrinker satyr
4 satyr firedancer
3 viashino firstblade

Now vs. GR:
-4 zealot, -4 skullcrack
+2 blind obedience, +2 chained to the rocks, +4 firedrinker satyr

That's more cohesive than what I've played before, but you still get blown out by turn 2 courser > turn 3 Domri; so you need to play around that.

Having access to Firedancer would help against mono u and any sort of green aggro deck, or green devotion.

Discuss.

I don't have a lot of matches against GR, but I really don't like firedrinker in the MU... Correct me if I'm wrong, but other than the benefit of going through caryatid, he sucks. MU is mostly a race in which he is terrible, and gets
outclassed by any creature they play other than caryatid.

Even if you trade with a courser, he probably timewalked you and hit you for 2. Ofcourse you have infinite more xp with the deck, but I just don't see it

[Jonnymagic]

I've been fine without the firedancer -- I don't know that I'd be fine without sparky though. My win % has not gone down as much as I thought to Mono U, WW is still always a blowout, and G/R has half our sideboard for. For firedancer and young pyro they are a slower/grindier version of this deck, and without a big bomb to be grinding to it feels like it slows us down a lot more. Hasty guys are good =D. I've debated putting viashino in the m/b honestly because there's not many matchups where he's bad. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE young pyro, he just feels like you want to grind them out with him, and this deck wants to win as fast as possible. Honestly, I don't hate wild guess. Definitely bad in the aggro matchups, but for the most part we are still favored in those, and we can board them out. I do like the ability to cycle a dead chains, and cycling phoenix is valuetown! I might try out a few and see.

[JohnnyfnB]

IMHO YP, just like SFD is a side board card. Both in certain scenarios are rock stars, but they both lack the immediate impact and versatility that AZ presents. BO > YP. BO has an immediate impact. I think the deck is going in the right direction with "speed kills".

Regarding Wild Guess, while it does have synergy with Phoenix, it has a very cutesie feel. First, what would you cut for it? Second, why wouldn't you just play Chandra Pyromaster instead? If it is deemed test worthy, I would only try 2 to 3 WG's.

[LaZerBurn]

Alternate SB:

2 blind obedience
2 chained to the rocks
4 firedrinker satyr
4 satyr firedancer
3 viashino firstblade

Now vs. GR:
-4 zealot, -4 skullcrack
+2 blind obedience, +2 chained to the rocks, +4firedrinker satyr firedancer

That's more cohesive than what I've played before, but you still get blown out by turn 2 courser > turn 3 Domri; so you need to play around that.

Having access to Firedancer would help against mono u and any sort of green aggro deck, or green devotion.

Discuss.

Fixed - as the typo wasn't obvious to everyone

My initial reaction is very positive Zem As a 4 of I like that you can build a cohesive strategy around him, as you point out. I haven't personally found Mortars to be that useful, despite how good they are on paper. I love the blow outs you can get with Spark Trooper but he can be a little mana unfriendly with 4 Vaults (I've yet to try 3 and 3 GG) and I much prefer the varied lines that the Dancer can bring. Dropped early he can often lock down the game, even if he gets removed your opp is playing removal spells and not casting threats which buys you more time to burn him and dropped mid/late game with burn back up he's amazingly powerful.

I've not seen much U of late but he drastically swings the match up in our favour and is at least as good against GR as Mortars and Spark I think, though style of play may affect this as you also mentioned previously. I'll happily try this out

[DDDebeli]

Alternate SB:

2 blind obedience
2 chained to the rocks
4 firedrinker satyr
4 satyr firedancer
3 viashino firstblade

Now vs. GR:
-4 zealot, -4 skullcrack
+2 blind obedience, +2 chained to the rocks, +4firedrinker satyr firedancer

That's more cohesive than what I've played before, but you still get blown out by turn 2 courser > turn 3 Domri; so you need to play around that.

Having access to Firedancer would help against mono u and any sort of green aggro deck, or green devotion.

Discuss.

Fixed - as the typo wasn't obvious to everyone

My initial reaction is very positive Zem As a 4 of I like that you can build a cohesive strategy around him, as you point out. I haven't personally found Mortars to be that useful, despite how good they are on paper. I love the blow outs you can get with Spark Trooper but he can be a little mana unfriendly with 4 Vaults (I've yet to try 3 and 3 GG) and I much prefer the varied lines that the Dancer can bring. Dropped early he can often lock down the game, even if he gets removed your opp is playing removal spells and not casting threats which buys you more time to burn him and dropped mid/late game with burn back up he's amazingly powerful.

I've not seen much U of late but he drastically swings the match up in our favour and is at least as good against GR as Mortars and Spark I think, though style of play may affect this as you also
mentioned previously. I'll happily try this out

That makes a lot more sense, too retarded to realize the typo myself!

[zemanjaski]

Frank Karsten tells me 3 Mutavault plus 3 Guildgate is better with our new white heavy SB. I agree. Also I love Guildgates.