Mono Black Aggro

[Lightning_Dolt]

I guess I need to be more specific... should pack rat get sided out vs G/x?

[magicdownunder]

I guess I need to be more specific... should pack rat get sided out vs G/x?

Pack Rats is one of the best cards vs removal lite builds, I can't even imagine why you'll even consider boarding out vs Gx.

[Lightning_Dolt]

All there stuff was just bigger, and every turn I was trading my fresh Pack Rat with one of their guys. Maybe it was just a weird game? Maybe I just played it wrong.

[Aodh]

Took MBA to a 4-2 finish at FNM, with upsetting losses to MUD and GR Monsters.

2-0 vs. UB Control
2-0 vs. Esper Control
0-2 vs. GR Monsters
2-1 vs. BuG Inspired
0-2 vs. MUD
2-0 vs. Gu Devotion

Hero, Cackler, Rat, Seer, Zombie, Herald, 5 discard, 4 Downfall, 2 BB, 2 UP mainboard.

[rcwraspy]

All there stuff was just bigger, and every turn I was trading my fresh Pack Rat with one of their guys. Maybe it was just a weird game? Maybe I just played it wrong.

Yeah but aside from Monstrous, their stuff isn't getting bigger than it already is. If you can afford to let them in the red zone unblocked a few turns, you'll be able to outpace them as you dump cards to Rat and outgrow them. The tricky thing is figuring out when to use removal on their threats and when to dump that removal to make another Rat - that depends very much on board state.

That said, I don't play Pack Rat very well honestly. I like all my cards too much to just throw them away, so I tend not to go in on it as much as you should. DPaine goes ALL in, which seems
the way to go most often. I'm probably going to switch to a PyroBlack deck, though I'll miss Pain Seer and Herald of Torment.

[LaZerBurn]

This article on the deck may be of interest guys - http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27 ... Demon.html

[LP, of the Fires]

I guess I need to be more specific... should pack rat get sided out vs G/x?

Vs. GW, I'd keep all of them, vs. green ramp decks like G/x devotion and R/G monsters, I'd board out two since they'll have ways of going over the top of even your 5/5 rats.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[adavydow]

Sorry if this is not a correct place to ask, but as I know here is a place where competitive players discusses black agro. I came to quite a different understanding of black agro: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/blood-bairn-agro/.
While initially it was created as a budget deck for my wife who decided to start on her own, I'm really shocked by a win ratio and now I want to invest in its improvement.
Can this deck have a potential? What are the best way of its improvement?

[Lightning_Dolt]

It does a lot of similar things, but I think the overall power level is kind of low.

[adavydow]

It does a lot of similar things, but I think the overall power level is kind of low.

And what you see as the main threads for this deck?
In terms of raw power it's almost the same as the deck discussed here and can end games against emty table really quick, but from mine point of view it can be even more evasive with blood bairn tricks i wrote.

[Lightning_Dolt]

The problem is

A) You're ignoring the strongest cards in standard

B) Blood Bairn is painfully slow / win more

If you're attacking with a 10/10 BB, that means you sacced 4 creatures to it. You could have just swung with them, and in most situations that would be the correct play.

Also, Encroaching Wastes is not better than mutavault (not close).

It seems to me like you're trying to justify yout budget concessions. If it's a budget deck, just say so.

Then again, the fact you said HP indicates you probably aren't a seasoned veteran. Read over what we have here. It might help.

[adavydow]

If you're attacking with a 10/10 BB, that means you sacced 4 creatures to it. You could have just swung with them, and in most situations that would be the correct play.

4 creatures are cripled by Jace and they are not intimidate.

Also, Encroaching Wastes is not better than mutavault (not close).

Mutavult is one of the few things nonblack decks can use against intimidate. While I agree that it's way-way better then wastes, In my case I prefered wastes.

It seems to me like you're trying to justify yout budget concessions. If it's a budget deck, just say so.

I got nonbudget's decks on my account too (not mine but copypasted from top ones). The only reason I wrote about this one is that i had higher winrate with it (in mtgo i play mostly tournaments in both cases)

Then again, the fact you said HP indicates you probably aren't a seasoned veteran. Read over what we have here. It might help.

Thank you for advice I'll definitely try this variant too.

[Lightning_Dolt]

If your build around is Bairn > Intimidate > sac all your stuff, all humans + xathrid necromancer would probably help.

I'm not a fan of this approach though. It's too eggs in one basket for me.

[Deht]

"Mutavult is one of the few things nonblack decks can use against intimidate."

Mutavault isn't an artifact and doesn't have a color though - how is it used against intimidate?

[adavydow]

If your build around is Bairn > Intimidate > sac all your stuff, all humans + xathrid necromancer would probably help.

I'm not a fan of this approach though. It's too eggs in one basket for me.

As I wrote I thought about it. However, I could not find good enough humans without splitting which will impact agro potential significantly (in multicolored decks marauder is not so cool as chances that you face opponent who shares color with one of your creature are much higher, still cool for haste though).

I even thought about adding it to this deck (12 humans are here anyway), but haven't playtested it yet.

I'm not a fan of huge swing with bairn, I prefer this as a threat your opponent shall play against (so he delays jace, for
example or lives spectre in defence losing card advantage). In addition if I have several copies of creatures onboard i love bairn as a protection against cleaves like blight or desphere.

[adavydow]

"Mutavult is one of the few things nonblack decks can use against intimidate."

Mutavault isn't an artifact and doesn't have a color though - how is it used against intimidate?

Thank you didn't know this, my first intimidate deck.
I'll Definitely change wastes to mutavault then.

[dpaine88]

As far as Pack Rat vs G/x, it depends.

It just really sucks when they go BTE turn 2. Then Domri turn 3 and fight with your 1/1 Pack Rat.

I wouldn't take it out, but sometimes it is a bit slow on the draw depending how explosive they are.

With G/R taking over the format kinda, I think 3 Doom Blade in the board makes sense.

[rcwraspy]

As far as Pack Rat vs G/x, it depends.

It just really sucks when they go BTE turn 2. Then Domri turn 3 and fight with your 1/1 Pack Rat.

I wouldn't take it out, but sometimes it is a bit slow on the draw depending how explosive they are.

With G/R taking over the format kinda, I think 3 Doom Blade in the board makes sense.

agree with the additional doom blades. We should also run the max number of Lifebane Zombie main while G/R is king of the hill.

Anybody having issues with the black splash in G/R monsters? Abrupt Decay and Reaper of the Wilds seem slightly problematic for this deck.

[dpaine88]

Someone posted this article - http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27 ... Demon.html

Good stuff for sure.

This is where they were at.

[deck]
Creatures (26)

2 Desecration Demon
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Pack Rat
4 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Herald of Torment

Lands (22)
16 Swamp
4 Mutavault
2 Temple of Silence

Spells (12)
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Ultimate Price
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 Desecration Demon
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Duress
1 Swamp
[/deck]

Pretty similar to where they were at. 4 Ultimate Price looks weird but I think it may be right to run it over Bile Blight. I mean BB isnt that great vs G/R. It was good against MBD but now they are cutting Spectre to be better vs R/G so in turn it isn't as good against them
either.

Ultimate Price is great against MBD and G/R monsters so why not? Then with 3 more Doom Blade in the board and 3 Dark Betrayal, seems to really shift the G/R and MBD matchups in our favor.

The 2x Demon has me a little unsure, I guess it could be 2x Marauder. With 22 land Demon might be coming down fairly late and I think that may hurt his effectiveness. Then again....Maybe Marauder isn't that effective when 8-10 total creatures in your deck already have good evasion with Lifebane and Herald.


The 2 scry land seems fine... Doubt having 2 will have a big impact and can help a little bit.

[dpaine88]

RE: Black Splash in Monsters...

I dont think it effects us too much...AD is just another removal spell against us and Reaper is good vs a lot of decks. I would think the fact they are hurting their manabase a little bit would help us narrow that out.

We can still Thoughtseize and Lifebane it and Downfall it on turn 4.

[dpaine88]

So those of you with any Demon experience...when would you side the other 2 in with the list I posted via SCG??

Of course for G/R and G/W but aside from that I'm not sure? Mono Blue?

[Lightning_Dolt]

I thin Desecration Demon is not where we want to be at all. Aggro decks don't want to ask for their opponent's permission to attack.

[dpaine88]

I have found him to be very solid against R/G Monsters. Especially bringing in doom blade. Kill their shit then drop Demon is very effective.

[dpaine88]

So I tried out a new LGS last night since I moved to Boston a few weeks ago, this is RCWraspy's store. As he put it " a hub for PTQ grinders". To no surprise, I saw a shit ton of people from big events there, so there was solid competition. Much better than I expected.

I went 4-0 , only losing one single game on the night, which was in the finals.

VERY IMPRESSED with the new version of the deck.

Played the following decks

Esper Control
Rakdos Control Jank
R/G monsters
Jund Monsters

Monsters matchups felt sooo much better with 4 Lifebane and 2 Demon in the maindeck. Demon is just an absolute fucking house against them. His only hope was to Domri fight Demon and Courser then Mizzium it.

Then forget about it games 2 and 3.....

Sideboarded like this

-4 Rakdos Cackler
-4 Toremented Hero
+2 Duress
+3 Doom Blade
+1 Swamp
+2 Desecration Demon

He brought in Chandra and got me pretty good
with it after blocks getting rid of 2 Rats- thought it was a weird attack, had no idea these decks are running it so we gotta be on the lookout there.

Duress is certainly worth bringing in against them. Seemed he went even more planeswalker heavy against me games 2 and 3.

I think its possible there could be 3 Demon maindeck, he was never ever ever bad. I found that they were using their removal or we were keeping Parity until Demon dropped.

Even typically with MBD where Xenegos is really good against Demon, the fact that this deck has a lot of early pressure negated Xenagos effectiveness.

[rcwraspy]

DPaine racking up the store credit! If you go Friday night at 9 the prize is the same but the competition is much softer, except when there's a large event on the horizon that people are testing for.

I'm liking the look of this deck! RE: J_S and Demon, I think it tops the curve really well. We're aggressively trading and stripping hands early and then we land Demon and they're in a really tough spot. I know people think Demon is bad in aggro, but this is a hybrid deck. We have access to 12 hand disruption spells and a plethora of kill spells - including 4 MD that target PWs. So I think Demon can work, and I'm glad to see DPaine's proving it out! Grats on the 4-0, man.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I have to ask, at the point when you have four DD in the 75, why aren't you just playing devotion?

[dpaine88]

I prefer to play the aggro version. A lot of people werent expecting Demon from my deck and wasted removal on other creatures.

I like playing transformational sideboards aka "Go Big". Always worked well for me with RDW variants to sideboard into an extra land and Thundermaw etc. This is only a 4 drop even.

People sideboard for your deck to be full of small creatures but instead you have more removal,disruption, gods, bigger creatures etc.

Theres a lot of cards that are good in both midrange and aggro, DD is one of them.

EDIT: Wanted to add I don't miss Mogis Maruader for a second....DD is 100x better than that card. We have too much removal/disruption for the mogis to really matter very much. He is suited for a deck heavy on 1-2 drops, not 3.

[dpaine88]

Thanks for the kind words Nate.

[rcwraspy]

I have to ask, at the point when you have four DD in the 75, why aren't you just playing devotion?

DPaine's answer is better, but mine is - because then we'd have to play the mirror. MBD is a much more known quantity than this deck, and this deck is good against both GR and MBD.

[dpaine88]

Exactly. This deck is barely known for the most part.

The deck's strengths don't have to come 100% from the cards themselves. The ability to sideboard into very powerful cards and change the deck by sideboarding 8 cards is huge.

You have tons of practice vs G/R and MBD but most people don't have sideboarding experience against us, and may sideboard incorrect. Especially when I am going big.

I try not to blindly follow but Owen Turtlewald originally had 4 DD in his maindeck mono black aggro list. When the best player in the world says something, I like to think there is some truth to it.



I personally love the aggro style of the deck.

Two things I would run into before was :
1) cards I couldnt interact with like spells , enchantments etc
2) creatures that came out turn 4/5 and outclassed mine.

Thoughtseize and Downfall/Price are incredibly powerful in an aggressive deck.

Before with certain red
decks I would play, I would get that feeling of doom where you know you are just screwed and in the blink of an eye the game slipped away.
I never feel that way with this deck. It can win quick and it can go long and still feel very much in. I can't think of one game that I lost that it wasn't close or I was getting crushed.

[Pedros]

Someone posted this article - http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27 ... Demon.html

Good stuff for sure.

This is where they were at.

[deck]
Creatures (26)

2 Desecration Demon
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Pack Rat
4 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Herald of Torment

Lands (22)
16 Swamp
4 Mutavault
2 Temple of Silence

Spells (12)
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Ultimate Price
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 Desecration Demon
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Duress
1 Swamp
[/deck]

I like this dec, really close to the one played pre btg
I found that scr lands are not needed, they sometimes
screw a game while arent important. This deck have amazing mana sinks in rat and demon.
Not a single bil bnlight in 75?

[dpaine88]

I tried out 2 scry lands and it seemed fine...never got in the way too much and sometimes you do need to find your 3rd land badly. It could be incorrect though.

No Bile Blight... Not that great against G/R and now that Mono Black is swapping Spectre for Lifebane, I dont think its that great either.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm willing to try running Desecration Demon.

I refuse to run scry lands in a mono coloured aggro deck. Scry 1 is not worth comes into play tapped when you play a deck that wants to curve out. I cut my red splash BECAUSE the scry lands were terrible. I'm not adding them back in when there's nothing to cast with them.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I'm starting to think the writer of that article was trolling.

[Lightning_Dolt]

BBD is playing MBA in the select versus video today. Playing the build with the dsecration demons.

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm willing to try running Desecration Demon.

I refuse to run scry lands in a mono coloured aggro deck. Scry 1 is not worth comes into play tapped when you play a deck that wants to curve out. I cut my red splash BECAUSE the scry lands were terrible. I'm not adding them back in when there's nothing to cast with them.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I'm starting to think the writer of that article was trolling.

If it makes you feel better, I hate everything Josh Ravitz writes and didn't read the article on principle, though 2 demons seems sweet. If I ran scry lands, I'd just run blood crypts as well and add dreadbore to the deck.

Demon does beat RG monsters though if they can't answer and/or you have a neutral board.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Guy seems like a dickhead to me.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Also, how are they getting away with 22 lands, 4 of which are vaults? So greedy.

[Lightning_Dolt]

BBD's list (list on the site is wrong):

[deck= BBD's Test Deck]Creatures (28)
4 Desecration Demon
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Pack Rat
4 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Herald of Torment

Lands (24)
18 Swamp
4 Mutavault
2 Temple of Silence

Spells (8)
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Ultimate Price
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
3 Dark Betrayal
4 Doom Blade
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Duress[/deck]

[Lightning_Dolt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpQBf9hJE5M