[Primer] PyroRed

[Pedros]

I would play 4/2 as esper have a lot of non destroy ways of killing.

You made a slot frokm peak erupion? Do you have slot for 4rd reckoner?

[magicdownunder]

Sideboard Progress:
1) I will not add the forth Boros Reckoner, I believe 3x Boros Reckoner with 19 Red sources is more then enough.
2) Cutting Peak Eruption because its narrow.
3) Cutting Act of Treason because its narrow.
4) Adding Boros Charm (Thanks Johnny)
5) Adding the 2nd Last Breath with Rod of Ruin because Boros Charm changes the possibilities of tactics which can be employed to deal with Ux Devotion

Still need to play test more to workout the numbers with Charms... kinda unmotivated due to poor EV, lack of Youtube traffic and the rapid decline in the value of THS boosters (now worth less then $3.3)

P.S. Z did you manage to unload your
packs 20+? I manage to sell them yesterday to Humans for 3.5, the value seems to be going down each day so things are not looking good for future profits...

[Lightning_Dolt]

We should probably merge the threads. We seem to have come to (or close to) a consensus for now.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Is your SB:

Sideboard (15)
3 Boros Reckoner
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
2 Last Breath
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 ???? (fourth reckoner seems ok?)

[RaidaTheBlade]

Merge what threads? If you're talking about the big boros, I disagree.
This thread is also used to discuss mono-red pyrored, not just the boros version. Besides, the goals of the different decks aren't always the same, even if the decklists are similar...

I guess that argument stands for merging with any other threads...

[Lightning_Dolt]

Merge what threads? If you're talking about the big boros, I disagree.
This thread is also used to discuss mono-red pyrored, not just the boros version. Besides, the goals of the different decks aren't always the same, even if the decklists are similar...

I guess that argument stands for merging with any other threads...

Well, then I guess we just close the Big Boros thread / let it die? MDU and I are the two most active posters there and seem to have arrived at about the same 75 (with dear leader of course) which is a hybrid of Walter White and Big Boros. It seems redundant to have two threads discussing the same deck.

Maybe a new thread that's just R/W aggro? Leave this one for pyro red? I don't know.

[notap123]

[deck]Creature (22)
4x Ash Zealot
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Firedrinker Satyr
1x Pyrewild Shaman
4x Rakdos Cackler
2x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Young Pyromancer
Enchantment (2)
2x Chained to the Rocks
Land (23)
11x Mountain
4x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
Instant (11)
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
3x Shock
Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
Sideboard (15)
3x Boros Charm
3x Boros Reckoner
2x Chained to the Rocks
1x Flames of the Firebrand
1x Rod of Ruin
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Skullcrack[/deck]

This is what I'll probably try out next FNM. I see the argument for not playing ashley but at the very least she can snag early creature kill to make way for chandra and SBD. Then there is if you do curve (or turn 3) you get quite a bit of value in combat tricks outside of hexproof. Shoot even late game she can tun sideways since your opponent should have a tapped creature field.

I
wonder if the awnser might be to just build the MD as Midrange and sideboard at least the FDS. It seems like MBD is no where near as bad as MUD and the consensus is to play more control against the latter. Disclaimer, just spitballing, I barley get out to FNM nowadays...

edit:
Now that I'm looking at it I might just drop another YP for Shock and put the 3rd YP to SB for when I do take the control role. Having Shock in the first couple of turns always feels right especially when you are playing against weenie and ramp.

[Lightning_Dolt]

[deck]Creature (22)
4x Ash Zealot
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Firedrinker Satyr
1x Pyrewild Shaman
4x Rakdos Cackler
2x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Young Pyromancer
Enchantment (2)
2x Chained to the Rocks
Land (23)
11x Mountain
4x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
Instant (11)
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
3x Shock
Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
Sideboard (15)
3x Boros Charm
3x Boros Reckoner
2x Chained to the Rocks
1x Flames of the Firebrand
1x Rod of Ruin
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Skullcrack[/deck]

This is what I'll probably try out next FNM. I see the argument for not playing ashley but at the very least she can snag early creature kill to make way for chandra and SBD. Then there is if you do curve (or turn 3)
you get quite a bit of value in combat tricks outside of hexproof. Shoot even late game she can tun sideways since your opponent should have a tapped creature field.

I wonder if the awnser might be to just build the MD as Midrange and sideboard at least the FDS. It seems like MBD is no where near as bad as MUD and the consensus is to play more control against the latter. Disclaimer, just spitballing, I barley get out to FNM nowadays...

This is I think 71 of the 75 I've arrived at. I think it looks good.

[montu]

... kinda unmotivated due to poor EV, lack of Youtube traffic and the rapid decline in the value of THS boosters (now worth less then $3.3)

Yeah, with THS Boosters at $3.30, the EV for 8-player single elimination is break-even at a 57% win-rate.

You'll get more Youtube traffic if you have a larger number of shorter videos (e.g, 2-3 minutes tops). The reason for this is people are more likely to watch five 3-minute videos than one 15-minute video. So you've just increased your page views by a factor of 5. Youtube will also be more likely to list shorter videos in the related column.

Here are some ideas you could consider:

• a video talking about your mulligan rules, with a number of examples
• videos that talk about your SB plans for each major deck-type in the metagame
• Pulling out non-trivial plays from your games and talking through them, i.e., show the current board, provide the options, ask the viewer to guess the play, show the play (talking through the reasoning), and then show what happens

[LaZerBurn]

• a video talking about your mulligan rules, with a number of examples
• videos that talk about your SB plans for each major deck-type in the metagame
• Pulling out non-trivial plays from your games and talking through them, i.e., show the current board, provide the options, ask the viewer to guess the play, show the play (talking through the reasoning), and then show what happens

I like these ideas

[Jack]

LP, I've always wondered how you're so good at calling their hand. Does it just come from playing for a long time, or was there some breakthrough lesson that you learned? Or is it possibly because you seem to play almost every deck, so you know how they work? I'd love it if you wrote an article about your expertise in this skill.

[LaZerBurn]

Opinion: vs Control 4x Skullcrack + 2x Boros Charm or 3x Skullcrack + 3x Boros Charm? I'm still tuning my Sideboard plan .

I like the second Last Breath a lot and I'd go 3/3 - Charm has a lot of utility against other decks too and I've never needed/wanted more than 3 Crack in any match up with any build of the deck since rotation.

The last slot depends what match up(s) you want to hate on - I
agree with Johnny that the 4th Reckoner looks good, flexible and good against MonoU but I've not tested the list enough to know what we really need. That said I don't think we need another Rod, Mortars, FotF or Crack, maybe the 4th Shock or a singleton Hammer or Pyrewild?

[Valdarith]

It's not an easily taught skill. It's much easier to do it in paper than online because on MODO you're only going off play sequencing. For instance, if you're playing against Esper and he is on the play and he casts Azorius Charm on one of your dudes and Detention Sphere on another on turns two and three, you can deduce that he likely does not have Supreme Verdict since he would have sandbagged those spells to get maximum value out of the Verdict while only taking 4-6 more damage since he was on the play. It's all about reading the decisions your opponent makes at key times in the matchup.

[Pedros]

Deck looks good so far, however I like the followijg idea to be discussed.

FDS is good vs 50% of the field and really bad s te rest of the field, while reckoner is awsome vs 50% of the field and so-sp vs the rest.

How about playing reckoners mb and fds in sb? This would be something boros devotion run for some time.

As for sb slots what about fanatic of mogis as good finisher for stalling matchups?
Or warleaders helix for agro matchups.
Another option would be Elspeth, to get good finisher for matchups we want to play control.
Or assemble the legion.

I would love to try some more white lands here. Boros guildgate as a 1 off? Or not worth destabilizing manabase with only 4 md white sources?

[Valdarith]

What makes you think Satyr is only good against 50% of the field? That's a poor characterization. I want him in every matchup except for the mirror.

[montu]

LP, I've always wondered how you're so good at calling their hand. Does it just come from playing for a long time, or was there some breakthrough lesson that you learned? Or is it possibly because you seem to play almost every deck, so you know how they work? I'd love it if you wrote an article about your expertise in this skill.

I'm not very good at anticipating what's coming next, so, to improve this, I'll sometimes pull up the deck I'm playing against (on MODO, obviously) from MTGGoldfish.com. It not only helps me think through what cards I might be seeing, but, more importantly, what can be played with the current mana my opp has on the board/open.

e.g., http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/8680

[Pedros]

What makes you think Satyr is only good against 50% of the field? That's a poor characterization. I want him in every matchup except for the mirror.

---

Ok don't know where to post so will post here.

We
have seen 3 big event this weekend:

Grand Prix Albuquerque Top 16:

6 Mono Black
4 Mono U
1 Naya Agro
1 Boros Burn
1 Esper Control
1 Gr Devotion
1 Rw Red Agro
1 Wr White Weenie Agro

StarCityGames.com Standard Open Top 16

5 Mono Blue Devotion
2 Mono Black Devotion
1 Jund Midrange
1 Wr White Weenie Agro
1 Wb White Weenie Agro
2 BG Agro
1 Rw Red
Agro
1 Boros Big Agro
1 Mono Red
1 Junk Midrange

StarCityGames.com Classic Top 8

3 Mono Blue Devotion
1 Mono Black Devotion
1 Gr Devotion
1 Esper Control
1 UW Control
1 Wr White Weenie Agro

To sumarize:

12/40 Mono Blue
9/40 Mono Black
4/40 Red Based Agro
4/40 Wx White Weenie
3/40 UW based Control
2/40 Gr Ramp Devotion
2/40 BG Agro
1/40 Naya Agro
1/40 Jund Mirange
1/40 Junk Midrange
1/40 Boros Burn


How to attack meta like that ? Which version we are talking right now?

Where should I post that kind of post?

Dunno about YP$ vs Black, as they incorporated Shrivel to their SB which is serious business right now.

According to the meta we want satyr vs
Mono/black 9/40
Uw based control 3/40
And probably vs jund and junk(however they are not that good there)

Then vs most of the decks 26/40 we would preffer to have reckoners, as in those matchups satyrs are:
# roadblocked by fast big creatures and
caryatids
# burned with additional value
# are really bad on defense as you cant really block or attack with them.

While reckoners are
#slow vs uwx control
#dies to evey removalmfrom mono black but can attack into anything as they cant basicly block them.

I know this is based at last 3 big tournaments, however you have to grab data from that as we dont have a lot of results from mtgo.

[Valdarith]

You're misevaluating the card. I definitely want Satyr vs every midrange deck, especially decks with Caryatid, Ooze, and Loxodon Smiter.

[LaZerBurn]

I like Satyr against Caryatid too, leave mana up and they never block him

[Pedros]

Ok I guess caryatid was bad example...

[Texeven]

Hey there guys!

Nice to see you all again, here in a more concentrated form.

After turning to Z-Man, he sent me this link and I began reading your extremely worthful contributions to this deck, as I was seeking a good red one for my local Grand Prix here in Vienna.

After studying the thread, I think this is something coming close to matching my playstyle and my card preferences

[deck] Ashley White[/deck]

I think running 2 [card]Boros Charm[/card:
tkyijgwt]s and cutting each of Magma Jet and Shock is a good idea because Boros Charm always comes in handy: It can make a seemingly bad or even trade godlike, it saves your team (and tokens) from Anger and deals the final 4 damage to the face when needed. For added speed against control decks there is another 2 of them in the SB.

Also Pyrewild Shaman is a genius idea in this deck (thx to MDU here). Often you find yourself being able to only deal 2 damage each turn via aerial [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card]. With 5 Mana up (which can happen) you can upgrade the damage per turn to 5 (which wont be neccecery more often than 1-2 turns).

I somehow still like Act of Treason but not quite sure about it anymore. I often find myself in the situation that the
opponent is able to block the threatened creature or just saccing a farty Mutavault when you finally take over Desecration Demon. Any advice here would be great.

MDU and some other guys here tend to run 2 Fanatic of Mogis. This would be a good replacement for Act of Treason, but I am not sure if I understood when it has to be boarded in. Any advice here would also be great.

As I said, I am going to run this (or a slightly simlilar) deck on GP Vienna. I will try my best to write a good report once I get back.

Greets

[LaZerBurn]

Ok I guess caryatid was bad example...

I do prefer Satyr MD but I think that it's important to question and discuss this sort of thing and I like that you do this, especially with the amount of thought you put in and detail you provide Pedros. I like Helix a lot as a potential singleton in the flex slot - good Vs Aggro and kills Weird too

@ MDU - I'm still pondering the SB and I remember you saying that the Burn deck that won MOCS 11 slaughtered MonoU - was it just the Burn build overall or where there key cards that we could squeeze into the SB?

[LaZerBurn]

@ Texeven - Welcome to DTR In case you've not seen it this is MDU's latest version of the deck. http://community.ist.utl.pt/viewtopic.p ... 57#p149657

The SB is a WIP and the I think latest version is [deck]3 Boros Reckoner
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
2 Last Breath
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Flex slot[/deck]

Fanatic was MDU's tech for breaking through in a stalled out board, primarily against Mono U and GR Ramp if memory serves. It comes in with Reckoner for maximum effect.

Good luck in Vienna

[Helios]

Welcome Texeven! Looks good.

This deck is not R/W aggro, that's like saying Death & Taxes is White Weenie. Big Boros, ya'll can decide what you want to do with your thread, but since the current 75 is Walter White + Dragons, this thread is going to continue as-is. I'll be back on the primer in a week or so.

[LaZerBurn]

I currently like this board

[deck]
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath
1 Rod Of Ruin
1 Warleader's Helix
[/deck]

Helix could be a Hammer but I really 'like' both of these cards so this may be subject to emotional bias

@ MDU - 4 Reckoner works but I can understand running 3.

[Purp]

I currently like this board

[deck]
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath
1 Rod Of Ruin
1 Warleader's Helix
[/deck]

Helix could be a Hammer but I really 'like' both of these cards so this may be subject to emotional bias

@ MDU - 4 Reckoner works but I can understand running 3.

2 Last Breath and 1 Rod? Seems like too much. I still don't understand the boros charm, why do you need it? That board seems incredibly weak to Big Red and GR. How is fanatic just not better

[Pedros]

[deck=MDU's PyroDragon Pedros tweeks]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Instances 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock

Others 8
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Sideboard 15
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
1 Warleader's Helix
1 Rod of Ruin (eighth edition)
2 Last Breath[/deck]

Played this deck today 8 games to 5-3 finish.

2-0 Mono Black (won game 1)
2-1 Mono Black (won game 1)
1-2 Mono Blue (as LazerBurn heard from me he bounced rod 2 times and had 2 masters. Also I learnt
it is better to try to kill stuff in upkeep and not on your own turn to not get attacked by 3/3 frog lizard)
1-2 Gr Devotion (5 planeswalkers G1, smooth win G2, turn 2 BTE+BTE+reverent hunter followed by polukranos monstrosity is gg)
2-0 Esper Control (won game 1)
1-2 Mono Black (Satyr wouldnt win me game 1 as he had 6 2 mana removals and 2 demons, G3 2 satyrs got blown by shrivel on turn 2, then kept drawing lands)
2-0 Mono Red Air
2-1 Mono Red Air

Reckoners in MB, and played 4 bad matchups for reckoners - 3* mono black and 1* esper. Still won 3 game 1 with reckoners.

1 of Warleaders Helix seems good as it can be also sb for mono black and esper in place of YP$/Shocks

[LP, of the Fires]

LP, I've always wondered how you're so good at calling their hand. Does it just come from playing for a long time, or was there some breakthrough lesson that you learned? Or is it possibly because you seem to play almost every deck, so you know how they work? I'd love it if you wrote an article about your expertise in this skill.

I'll see what I can do about writing about it. I'll probably spitball with some people to see if they can add anything other then "I'm psychic".

[LaZerBurn]

2 Last Breath and 1 Rod? Seems like too much. I still don't understand the boros charm, why do you need it? That board seems incredibly weak to Big Red and GR. How is fanatic just not better

Check Pedros' very thorough post a page or so ago on the meta - it's mainly MBDevo and MUDevo so the SB reflects that.

I don't think 2 LB and 1 Rod is too much

The Charm is to protect your Chains (from Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm - MDU posted this on here a page or so ago - which are seeing play in the B decks) but it's also good against sweepers and any time you want your guys to stay alive. 4 to the Dome is pretty handy too - recurs Phoenix, kills
Walkers etc It is Johnny_Spike's tech

You have 4 MD Chains, heaps of removal and 2 Dragons against Big Red and GR with 4 Reckoners and 2 Mortars in the board, seems ok to me

[LaZerBurn]

'K I am off to bed my parting thoughts - I really, really love this build, my favourite so far

[magicdownunder]

@Texeven, great to see you again - I thought I lost you too all the mindless crap being posted on the mtgs modern burn section.

LP, I've always wondered how you're so good at calling their hand. Does it just come from playing for a long time, or was there some breakthrough lesson that you learned? Or is it possibly because you seem to play almost every deck, so you know how they work? I'd love it if you wrote an article about your expertise in this skill.

It comes with experience, once you learn the meta you can predict what your Op. will play most of the time. From this point depending on your play-style you can use the information to your own advantage or disadvantage I for example play from a pessimistic pov. (this is something I had to
learn, since its not how you win Modern burn games...) I always predict the worst scenario which is why I take lesser risk.

Keep in mind though making calls with Hindsight or watching videos is many times easier then doing it live.

• a video talking about your mulligan rules, with a number of examples
• videos that talk about your SB plans for each major deck-type in the metagame
• Pulling out non-trivial plays from your games and talking through them, i.e., show the current board, provide the options, ask the viewer to guess the play, show the play (talking through the reasoning), and then show what happens

I would love to have DEs back so I can use replays again, it would make things much easier since i wouldn'
t have to worry about the clock, or money.

@All

The current PyroDragon list is a meta deck to take down Ux and Bx Devotion, if you want a more general deck take the 2 chains, 4 ash version, 3 YP$, 12 burns, 1 shaman and 1-2 dragon version.

[LP, of the Fires]

it is WAAAAAAAAY easier seeing the correct plays and lines when you're not in the drivers seat.

[zemanjaski]

Step 1. Remember your opponent is a living, breathing person with hopes and dreams. They will make logical plays to best give effect to their cards to win the game. Higher level play really just means better sequencing.

Step 2. Use all available information to work backwards through your opponents play to deduce possible combinations of cards. Continue to refine and narrow this range as more information becomes available.

Step 3. Crush your opponents hopes and dreams.

With more experience, your ability to arrive at and make use of Step 2 will improve.

[LP, of the Fires]

Step 1 is also where leveling theory comes in. Logical means different things at different levels as the better your opponent is, the "better" logic they use. Higher level players become accustomed to "scripts" that the game runs on.

Aggro players script being play dude, swing with dude, play other dude, burn spell etc. That's playing on script.

When you're agro opponent plays no one drop or 2 drop and you've deduced that he/she is a solid player, alarm bells should go off and that's one way you can start putting them on a range of hands such as removal into Chandra's phoenix, and/or Chandra.

[RaidaTheBlade]

So, I've been running up against a lot of naya control at my lgs. Any thoughts on how to sideboard there with this most reent sorta build? (Walter with dragons).

I plan on somehow adding in burning earth to the sideboard, though I dunno what to take out for it, so thoughts there would also help...

[magicdownunder]

Could you post which list your talking about? The version with Ash and Dragons or the Non-Ash version with Dragons?

[RaidaTheBlade]

Yeah, sorry. Here's the 75 I'm currently staring at meself.

[deck]

Lands 23
12 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Burn 13
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Other 6
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
2 Act of Treason
2 Rod of Ruin
[/deck]

[magicdownunder]

Ahhh... my list, you don't need two Rod of Ruin nor do you need Act of Treason (though Act is decent against Naya) so you can drop any number of these for BE (which I believe is a horrible card).

In regards to SB, if your talking about the list I think your talking about then these are the easiest cards to board out: 4 Rakdos Cackler, 4 Firedrinker Satyr, 3 Shock and 2 Flames of the Firebrand, just board in anything you need over those cards.

[RaidaTheBlade]

Yeah, I have the 2 rods cause I'm a sucker for multiple copies of stuff... The acts are because theres a good bit of midrange around here, and BE is for naya and other three colors, and the two maze's end decks at my lgs e.e

Based on what you said, how would you actually feel about just -1 rod, +1 Charm? Cause charm seems pretty good vs naya imo e.e

So I guess I'd be doing -4 satyr, -4 cackler, +3 charm, +2 act, +3 mortars? Still a bit iffy on dropping the 1 drops vs a control deck, but naya does have a good bit of midrange tendancy, so...


Also, yeah this is pretty much your list 1-for-1... I've been staring at it since I saw it, trying any way of possibly refining it any more, and I just can't see any way... It's beautiful as is...

Only real ideas I even have would be to drop the flames for 2 mortars main board, giving 2 extra sideboard slots for stuff like the BE i was talking about e.e But I don't
know if that'd be a good idea or not.

[magicdownunder]

Again I have no idea which control list your talking about.

Naya Tokens with Anger of the gods, Elspeth, Sun's Champion + Assemble of the Legion as the main wincon? Or Naya with Anger of the gods, Elephants, Dragons and Wurms?

Ifs it tokens then your 1 drops are important, vs Wurm, Dragons and Elephants cut Firedrinker Satyr because they WILL kill you, keeping Rakdos Cackler is fine.

Bring in Boros Reckoner vs either version, not sure why you didn't @_@.