[Primer] PyroRed

[magicdownunder]

Im a little confused at why the current lists run only 3 YP$, given he enables a lot of synergy in the deck and doesn't get worse in multiples really.

I would think he would be the last card you would want to cut..

I'm sure there is a good reason, could anyone clue me in?

The Meta, U and R based control decks don't care for 1/1 tokens nor does Golgari Charm.

If your meta is filled with small aggro and DD.decks stick with 4x young.

P.S. I rather you PM me your GPT and/or IQ wins if possible.

[Lightning_Dolt]

They're better than nothing, but they are also the worst dual lands I've ever had to play with.

Imo:

shocks > fetch lands > checks > pain lands > zendikar man lands > scry lands.

[dpaine88]

Im a little confused at why the current lists run only 3 YP$, given he enables a lot of synergy in the deck and doesn't get worse in multiples really.

I would think he would be the last card you would want to cut..

I'm sure there is a good reason, could anyone clue me in?

The Meta, U and R based control decks don't care for 1/1 tokens nor does Golgari Charm.

If your meta is filled with small aggro and DD.decks stick with 4x young.

P.S. I rather you PM me your GPT and/or IQ wins if possible.

Are you making a list of big-ish events that we all did
well at or a big thing of reports? I only do the full reports for 8+ round events so I only have the matchups and records for last GPT, not sure if that interests you at all.

Going to SCG Open Providence Saturday and will certainly have a report if I do half decent(top32 or better).


Honestly, I havn't a damn clue what the meta is like right now except that my general region( Northeast USA) is typically control-heavy.

I'm probably going to take your list and run with it. I think I'm a much better player than brewer. I need to understand the game a lot more before I can actually come up with my own true opinions and start brewing decks and making changes. Basically, I trust you guys and you have results to back it up, thats all I need.

Last big event I did, a TCG5k was exactly a month ago - http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1166488.

Have been playing very casually since
but it was a shit ton of DD decks...


Also, there is Red Based control lists? I must have missed something over the past month then!!

[dpaine88]

Oh and MDU, not really sure who you are as I have been out of the loop but can only assume you are one of Zem's friends based on the username haha

In the past few pages you've posted a ton of good shit and videos. Gonna watch that shit alllll tomorrow and Friday night to get ready for SCG Saturday.

Thanks a lot for the great contributions and very respectable results!

[magicdownunder]

I'm honestly don't know if IQ or GPT count as large events, but people seems to enjoy them so I thought to myself "what the heck, might as well include them in the archives".

That said, I'll make the update tomorrow morning - vundo and pulps list, I'll try and look for yours but it would make my job easier if you PM me.

[zemanjaski]

They're better than nothing, but they are also the worst dual lands I've ever had to play with.

I think this is the problem.

Imo:

shocks > fetch lands > checks > pain lands > zendikar man lands > scry lands.

Not in standard, not even close.

[dpaine88]

I'm honestly don't know if IQ or GPT count as large events, but people seems to enjoy them so I thought to myself "what the heck, might as well include them in the archives".

That said, I'll make the update tomorrow morning - vundo and pulps list, I'll try and look for yours but it would make my job easier if you PM me.

Its weird cause those events never seem to come around...least the past year since I got back into magic.

I think the GPT did was the only standard one I did and IQ never has, just Open.

What I do go to is a shitload of TCG 1k and 5k events, but I never hear people talk about em on here. Least for me 1k is usually 70+ people and 5k's 200+ so its not like they are dinky little tournaments. Good ass
prizes too obviously.

Does TCG not have these events out by you folks?

[dpaine88]

MDU/Zem,

After asking a few friends going to the event, I should expect lots of U/W/ or Esper control along with both Mono Blue and Mono Black.

Mono blue scares the fuck out of me cause I legit have not played against it ever...Consider myself lucky haha.

Based on those 3/4 decks, would either of you make any changes to either Pyro Red or Boros variant? Kinda makes me want to run BTE/Striker combo.

[Lightning_Dolt]

They're better than nothing, but they are also the worst dual lands I've ever had to play with.

I think this is the problem.

Imo:

shocks > fetch lands > checks > pain lands > zendikar man lands > scry lands.

Not in standard, not even close.

How would you rank them?

[dpaine88]

Trying to get caught up on the scene,

Have you guys seen this deck?
[deck]
Creatures (28)

4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Lands (24)

12 Mountain
1 Boros Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Spells (8)

1 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Aurelia's Fury
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Mizzium Mortars
Sideboard

1 Assemble the Legion
1 Burning Earth
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Wear
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

[magicdownunder]

Its a Big Boros Devotion Deck, its good against Small Aggro, MonoBlue and Gx Devotion.

Its weak against control and Bx Devotion decks, honestly if I was to go to a 'real' event right now I'll just take Boros Aggro, like the list we're cooking up on Big Boros (FoM have been doing statistically poorer in larger events, then these types of decks).

This is what I'll use:

[deck=MDU's Big Boros, tweaked by LaZer]Lands 24
12 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 20
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 StormBreath Dragon
2 Young Pyromancer

Instants 10
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

Others 6
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Flame of the Firebrand

Sideboard 15
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Last Breath
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Stormbreath Dragon[/deck]

I'll
be working on the board plan for it soon, I've been calling it Big Boros but it should of been called Boros Aggro.

[zemanjaski]

They're better than nothing, but they are also the worst dual lands I've ever had to play with.

I think this is the problem.

Imo:

shocks > fetch lands > checks > pain lands > zendikar man lands > scry lands.

Not in standard, not even close.

How would you rank them?

In standard?

Zendikar
manlands > buddy lands > shocks > fetches (because of landfall at the time) > scrylands / fastlands > painlands

Zendikar manlands were absurd in standard. Colour-fixing, mana sink and win condition all in one.

Buddy lands are a little too good IMO. They were weakened during Scars because they had no interaction with fastlands, but they're obviously insane with shocks and are basically og duals in a 2-colour deck.

Shocks / fetches are only amazing together. Shocks are worse than buddies in any hand that contains a basic...fetches can only get one colour without shocks, so you never produce multiple colours off a single land unless shocks are available.

Basically, producing two colours off one land is very, very good. CIPT isn't a very big drawback if you take account of it in deck construction and the upside of being able to actually cast your spells is so high.

Scrylands are better than buddies turn 1 (sometimes turn 2+!) and always better than a fastland on turn 4+; theyre
better than any land but the Zendikar manlands if you're already flooding. In terms of design, not power level, I think they're the best after the shocks (Zendikar manlands are last).

[Elricity]

Imo:

shocks > fetch lands > checks > pain lands > zendikar man lands > scry lands.

Not in standard, not even close.

How would you rank them?

Fetches have nothing major going for them without Tarmogoyf and friends. Check/pain lands only matter when you're 3-4 colors because you're grabbing the best cards out
of a card pool.

Man lands are always important for aggro decks when they're good. The scry lands are good in any deck that needs to find its sideboard cards to have a good chance. It would be hard for me to rank them. Shock lands are probably "the best" but even that's situational. The r/w burn deck in the other thread is choosing to run temple of silence over godless shrine just because the scry is more relevant than the untapped land.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah I've been incredibly impressed by the scrylands in that deck. Also eight shocks is uggggh when you're not always the beatdown.

[magicdownunder]

Yeah I've been incredibly impressed by the scrylands in that deck. Also eight shocks is uggggh when you're not always the beatdown.

Did you get the chance to play against BG or Gx Devotion decks with Rwb Burn yet? They seems like really bad MUs.

The new version of UW seems really bad as well...

[zemanjaski]

I'm better than 50% vs. green devotion, and 1-0 in my match against GB. Yet to play UW but the deck wrecks Esper.

[magicdownunder]

Anssi A mention that BG is a bad MU mainly due to 4-8 discards spells, Lotleth Troll and Gift of Orzhova - which leads me to believe that MonoBlack is also a bad MU...

Though the fact that its solid vs MonoBlue and you showed good results vs Gx Devotion is promising.

[zemanjaski]

I'm going on small sample size unfortunately. My 75 is a bit different as well.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm better than 50% vs. green devotion, and 1-0 in my match against GB. Yet to play UW but the deck wrecks Esper.

U/W is tougher, but they have a very hard time if you curve or have a dragon.

Esper + U/W are half my meta. I wish they'd play esper. U/W is favourable , but esper is VERY favourable.

[magicdownunder]

I've updated the primer with purps, vundo and dpaine88 finishes (good work guys).

[MattT]

Here´s the latest iteration of PyroBlack which I am working on.
[deck]PyroBlack[/deck]
At the moment I am at: (~win% of about a dozen games each vs.)
Rakdos aggro 100% *well 1 match doesn´t say much, but still*
BUG 80%
GR 60%
Blue Devotion 60%
Red Devotion 60%
Esper 60%
UW 60%

I.e. it shows no weaknesses so far. The deck works as the Ash/YP$ variant ususally does with ususal suspects of Blue Devotion and Esper proving easier to handle.
Numbers are also a tad lower due to inexperience. As Zem wrote, Pyro is devilishly complicated almost always with numerous lines of play.

Master gets spot removed in Blue and then it´s not much argument from that deck. -1 Shock, -1 Dreadbore, +1 Doom Blade, +1 Ultimate Price.

As for Esper, Erebos tech has proven useful. The aim is to destroy their synergy by negating lifegain. I go -4 Shock, -1 Doom Blade, -3 Chandra, +4 Thoughtseize, +3 Erebos, +1 Dreadbore. I still have (slightly limited) card draw, which incidently refills by parts of their spot removal (Devour, Last Breath). Their SB becomes pointless (e.g. Bloodbaron turns into a 4/4 for 5 mana) and Sphinx become hideously expensive. I lose half the opportunities to recur Phoenix, but the loss is acceptable. The burn can be saved to spend when need be. Not to mention how well Dreadbore works vs Jace and even Elspeth if things starts to go awry.

I likeTymaret more and more. He´s a Pyromancers gauntlet & ca in one package.

In summary
the deck plays just as smooth as everyone says, but the answers are more stable imho. E.g. the answer to Master in going white to exile him works, but why not simply use an instant spot removal and possibly gain an elemental at the same time? The same elemental then also become ammo for Tymaret or allows him to recur while it chump blocks their DD. Boros reckoner also becomes a breeze for the same reasons. Further, Thoughtseize feels almost overkill. Duress would hit everything relevant but Aetherling and allow for more card draw by Erebos. All the while benefiting from YP$ and Tymaret. The brilliance of the Pyro deck is it´s consistency. There´s always a plan. I think black splash only further this and the synergy. Don´t ignore it just because.

Come february and the Rakdos scry land ,Temple of Mogis I guess, I think Pyroblack will take off. I'd also love to see a black spot removal with scry tagged on. *crossing fingers*.

[poppa_f]

Consider Toil // Trouble for the Rakdos version, guy wrote a good article about it on Channel Fireball recently:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -standard/

[RaidaTheBlade]

Something I'd like for a R/B pyro version to utilize would be more card advantage. Stuff like red the bones, toil, and (less so cause its an enchantment, and therefore doesnt trigger yp) underworld connections.

[Purp]

Guess they call it Boros Aggro

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdata ... Show+Decks

[Pedros]

Played more real life games to train before GP -> to not forget about triggers or stuff like that.

5-1 wednesday - report in big boros thread, Run version with 4 YP$ main, 2 dragons mb and 1 dragon + land in sb.

Today 2-2-1: With MDU deck (2 chandra + shaman in stead of 3 chandra)

1st round 1-2
Lost mono red agro (curve stopped at 3) -> won game 1 on a draw with mulligan to 6, lost game 2 because I kept sketchy hand (sacred foundry, chain, ash zealot, 4 removal in lightning strikes, magma jets and last breath). Managed to draw 2nd land, however my opp cast peak eruption. Game 3 flooded to 8 lands and died to chandra phoenix from 13 -> opp was at 2, probably play too safe keeping ash zealot on defense from mutavault,,,

2nd round GR devotion 0-2

Didnt see single chained to the rocks, and my opp had in both games caryatid turn 2, polkranos turn 3 and nyktos, bte, xenagos with colossus turn 4. And he
played well so I couldnt winn with 2 dragons and chandra.
Funny fact is that reckoner is ultra bad against polukranos if they have mana to monstrous it for 3.

3rd round GW Agro 1-1-1

Game 3 I had chained and mortars in hand with pyro, 2 ash zealots and phoenix on board vs voice, 4/4 experiment one and smitter. My opp 0 cards in hand, topdecked bow of Nylea (phoenix are destroyed), then courage (chained target -> on smitter which was correct choice), then boon satyr. I drew all lands and had to chump block till time was called.

4rd round Jund Midrange - 2-1

Hardest matchup today, however finally deck started to work out. SB is extremely hard, as this deck plays caryatid into polukranos/reaper + dragons, with planeswalkers in xenagos + vraska + solid amount of removal in decay, putrefy and golgari charm.

5rd round UR control 2-0

Rolled over, had just to play around anger of gods.

Shaman:
* destroyed screwed opponent who didnt draw 3rd land but blocked my guys with sylvan caryatid.
n* traded with multiple mono red guys when I flooded and later used him to make my clock into 3 turns instead of 4 or even 5.
* protected creature from magma jet in combat.

Dunno about this deck, but I still flood extremely hard with 24 lands. After comming home I played on modo with 21 lands (2 muta only) with 3 dragons (2/1 split) and I still flooded very much, dunno.

What I also noticed is the fact, that I miss spells with YP$. 11 spells is not enough for 2 YP. Agro matchup is also somehow worse without 3rd shock.

Tomorow I have 2 more tournaments IRL, might test different version -> any suggestions which one? YP$ is amazing vs 50% of the field, while dragon vs others.

Also after playing with GR devotion deck, my opp said he is sb all of the nyleas as they are really bad early in the game without devotion online. Maybe we should keep pyromancers post board?

[Helios]

Hard to comment without a list.

[zemanjaski]

I think Pyroblack is where ill want to be post rotation. Stronger synergies. Nice work Matt.

Erobos is indeed sweet tech.

[Keftenk]

Played more real life games to train before GP -> to not forget about triggers or stuff like that.

5-1 wednesday - report in big boros thread, Run version with 4 YP$ main, 2 dragons mb and 1 dragon + land in sb.

Today 2-2-1: With MDU deck (2 chandra + shaman in stead of 3 chandra)

1st round 1-2
Lost mono red agro (curve stopped at 3) -> won game 1 on a draw with mulligan to 6, lost game 2 because I kept sketchy hand (sacred foundry, chain, ash zealot, 4 removal in lightning strikes, magma jets and last breath). Managed to draw 2nd land, however my opp cast peak eruption. Game 3 flooded to 8 lands and died to chandra phoenix from 13 -> opp was at 2, probably play too safe keeping ash zealot on defense from mutavault,,,

2nd round GR
devotion 0-2

Didnt see single chained to the rocks, and my opp had in both games caryatid turn 2, polkranos turn 3 and nyktos, bte, xenagos with colossus turn 4. And he played well so I couldnt winn with 2 dragons and chandra.
Funny fact is that reckoner is ultra bad against polukranos if they have mana to monstrous it for 3.

3rd round GW Agro 1-1-1

Game 3 I had chained and mortars in hand with pyro, 2 ash zealots and phoenix on board vs voice, 4/4 experiment one and smitter. My opp 0 cards in hand, topdecked bow of Nylea (phoenix are destroyed), then courage (chained target -> on smitter which was correct choice), then boon satyr. I drew all lands and had to chump block till time was called.

4rd round Jund Midrange - 2-1

Hardest matchup today, however finally deck started to work out. SB is extremely hard, as this deck plays caryatid into polukranos/reaper + dragons, with planeswalkers in xenagos + vraska + solid amount of removal in decay, putrefy and golgari charm.

5rd round UR
control 2-0

Rolled over, had just to play around anger of gods.

Shaman:
* destroyed screwed opponent who didnt draw 3rd land but blocked my guys with sylvan caryatid.
* traded with multiple mono red guys when I flooded and later used him to make my clock into 3 turns instead of 4 or even 5.
* protected creature from magma jet in combat.

Dunno about this deck, but I still flood extremely hard with 24 lands. After comming home I played on modo with 21 lands (2 muta only) with 3 dragons (2/1 split) and I still flooded very much, dunno.

What I also noticed is the fact, that I miss spells with YP$. 11 spells is not enough for 2 YP. Agro matchup is also somehow worse without 3rd shock.

Tomorow I have 2 more tournaments IRL, might test different version -> any suggestions which one? YP$ is amazing vs 50% of the field, while dragon vs others.

Also after playing with GR devotion deck, my opp said he is sb all of the nyleas as they are really bad early in the game without devotion online. Maybe
we should keep pyromancers post board?

I know the list you're talking about and I think I'd have to agree with you Pedros. I'm having the same problems you're having and I'm not clearly sure as to why. I'm either stuck on 3 lands or I get flooded for 9 or some bullshit. Not only that, but then there is the lack of pressure vs aggro and the YP threat. I think I'm going to go back to a 2 SBD build with 3 vault, while using the Shaman. Purp posted a link that is almost identical to it, but there was a list floating around that was similar to even that list a few pages back.

[deck]
Creatures
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Pyrewild Shaman
1 Stormbreath Dragon

Land
12 Mountain
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mutavault

Other Spells
3 Shock
1 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Enchantments[/
b]
2 Chained to the Rocks

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Stormbreath Dragon
[/deck]

It's still doing very well, my sample size is somewhat low though @ 31 games. Something I really liked from the Big Boros thread though was Tajic. That thing is a beast vs Gx until Nylea show's her face, so I might play around with 1 of in the SB. I sort of want to take out the Boros Charms, but not sure yet..

[RaidaTheBlade]

I've given PyroBlack some thought before, but Matt's latest list made me consider it a bit more...

As I said earlier, I definitely like how splashing black gives us a bit more card advantage. While I'd normally go underworld connections, yp means that one of the instant or sorceries is better, and toil//trouble is likely better here then read the bones.

That said, if I had to build a PyroBlack list atm, this is proly where I'd be:

[deck]PyroBlack[/deck]



I'd like to get a 4th yp$ into the main, but I think it works okay as it is.

I traded out the shocks for dreadbores, and then added toil//trouble. Dreadbore can't go upstairs to recur phoenix, but trouble can, and dreadbore takes care of most anything that threatens us, kinda like chained in PyroWhite.

I mean, MoW has pro from it, but that's what the ultimate prices and doom blades in the sb are for... (And thoughtsieze too i guess)

Thoughts?

[Guttler]

@Keftank

A IRL friend of mine plays a lot of cockatrice and has been testing Bg Devotion for an IQ this weekend. He told me that you wrecked him with walter white even when he had Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays. As a result, he is second guessing his deck choice for the IQ and wants to switch to Pyrored at the last minute now that both I and someone else beat him with the deck.

[RaidaTheBlade]

So, after the IQ last weekend, and a lot of thinking, I think I'm really close to where I want my Mono-red build to be, until I make the switch to walter white at some point.

That said, here's my list with a few modifications I hope to make either prefnm, or postfnm using store credit.

[deck]
Creatures:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells:
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
2 Mizzium Mortars

Planeswalkers:
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land:
20 Mountain
2 Mutavault

Sideboard:
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Act of Treason
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Flames of The Firebrand
2 Flex Spots
[/deck]
The Flex Spots are either Rod of Ruin at events/where its a thing or Burning Earth at my lgs, cause 3 colors are all over the place,
and there's one ass playing maze's end.


It hurts a lot to pull out a Young Pyro, but I've been hurting for some sorta finisher. It'd help shore me up some against G/W, which I've been having a devil of a time againt.

I'd rather pull something else out instead of yp, but cant't think of anything...


Thoughts?

[windstrider]

@Raida: Running three YP is still good as you'll see them fairly regularly.

How has the Dragon been on 22 lands? I'm much more comfortable with the Pyro decks at 23 lands as there were times when an additional mana would have opened up more options.

[magicdownunder]

I'm also in the more land camp, it help with mulling which is also very important.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I haven't got to try the dragon yet, cause I sadly don't own one yet. Luckily, they seemed to have dropped in price somewhat, I saw a few online for $15 or so, which I might go for depending on what my lgs sells them for.

23 land would probably also work well, but I've rarely felt land starved on 22. Honestly, more often I will get more land then I need, then the other way around. It happens in a deck that has a lot of cheap stuff, but still plays the long game.

I like 22, cause it's a bit more then normal rdw runs, which helps with the 2 chandras and 1 stormbreath, but it also isn't too much to where I get flooded too often.

I mean, I used to run 4 hellriders off of 21 lands (in a 2-color deck!) so 2 chandras and a mouthbreather aren't that bad...

[whiskeydanger]

sorry if this has already been answered but has anyone else run into a recent mess of G/B and G/R decks on mtgo running sylvid caratyd and gatecreeper vines? i just got stomped by decks like these three games in a row. by presenting walls that you can't burn or chains away you pretty much rely entirely on either pumped satyrs or boros reckoners to remove their defensive screens in order to get at their life totals. assuming you're running the white splash variant of pyro red what's your side boarding strategy against these kinds of lists? the only solution that comes to mind is firefist striker but i'm pretty sure that hexproof would prevent firefist's ability from working against them. the other option is anger of the gods but that kills our creatures too! does anyone have any suggestions? thanks!

[Yarpus]

Pumps.
Pyrewild Shaman, Titan's Strenght.

[whiskeydanger]

Pumps.
Pyrewild Shaman, Titan's Strenght.

that makes sense, thank you. now i just need to figure out what to cut.

[Keftenk]

@Keftank

A IRL friend of mine plays a lot of cockatrice and has been testing Bg Devotion for an IQ this weekend. He told me that you wrecked him with walter white even when he had Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays. As a result, he is second guessing his deck choice for the IQ and wants to switch to Pyrored at the last minute now that both I and someone else beat him with the deck.

Lol I remember him I think. We had a discussion about some things even, heh.
As I mentioned in the Big Boros thread, even with Abrupt Decays and Golgari Charms, Chains is still one of our best cards. As long as you play around threats such as AD and GC, you get at least a one turn use out of Chains. Other then that, YP it up to lock down the DD as always. I
believe in our games he resolved a Whip, but I had Skullcrack waiting for him. The version of PyroBoros that I play just has a lot of answers for the deck, but I would definitely say that Bg Devotion is the hardest of the versions to play against.

[windstrider]

@whiskeydanger: There are several lists here that use Pyrewild or Titan's Strength. Take a look through the last several pages, and you'll find discussions on them.

Welcome aboard.

Edit: Added card names for clarification.

[Elricity]

Also Satyr and Boros charm break through walls.