[Primer] PyroRed

[Helios]

Worth noting, Vial of Poison is not an answer. The demon flies. If you have Phoenix out, you aren't worried about him anyway.

RE: Skullcrack~ If it's in your board anyway, go for it. Looking at your board, you have 4 Chained, Assemble, and YP$. That's 9 answers, you should be fine. Just keep in mind that those are your answers, so don't spend them on other cards if you can help it.

[DocLawless]

Going into a mostly unknown meta,what do y'all think would be better? The pyro list with only 1 muta(i only have 1), or the devotion list?

Going into an unknown meta, it's hard to say. I'd play Pyro, but that's only because I'm more comfortable with it. Your real edge is going to come from learning the meta and boarding answers specifically for it. I'm a big believer in the sideboard being where your deck is actually at. Shells don't vary much, when you get right down to it. Sideboards fit you into the meta and, ideally, help you kick it's ass.

I feel like you could tweak your Devotion list a bit, though. Maybe drop the Mutavault in favor of 22 Mountains (so nothing keeps you from a Reckoner on curve) and try to squeeze those Satyrs
in because, like Z said, Devotion plays permanents and Pyro plays spells.

[Helios]

^ That.

The only list where Muta is critical to the core function is the FFS Pyro list with the full set. Don't worry about only having one- play with the one you've got, burn some folks, and win the next one

[Pedros]

Started next Daily playing with Pyro Red Meta version.

1st vs Big Boros
Game 1 and 2 he had double reckoners with burn and chained to the rocks. Turn before killing him with phoenix he played anger of the gods redirecting 6 damage to me and killing me with it. Kept 2 Lighting Strike to kill him next turn.

2men between rounds vs Mono Black

Both games ended turn 5 when they couldnt keep up with creatures, as I had both games 1 drop into BTE + random guy + phoenix.

Again 2 men vs Mono Black
same again destroyed them.

2nd game daily vs Naya Control

He destroyed me. Removal + beefy creatures without good sb in peak eruption = not good.

3rd game in 2man.

Played vs Willy Edel (I think) heplayed BUG midrange, similar to mono black but with decays, reaper of the wilds and scavenging ooze. Mull to 5 and mull to 6 and stopping on 2 lands = dead.

[Helios]

Good luck Pedros!

[DocLawless]

Played vs Willy Edel (I think) heplayed BUG midrange, similar to mono black but with decays, reaper of the wilds and scavenging ooze. Mull to 5 and mull to 6 and stopping on 2 lands = dead.

I dabbled in BUG right before Theros released. Didn't have enough Red.

Good luck, sir.

[RaidaTheBlade]

Going into a mostly unknown meta,what do y'all think would be better? The pyro list with only 1 muta(i only have 1), or the devotion list?

Going into an unknown meta, it's hard to say. I'd play Pyro, but that's only because I'm more comfortable with it. Your real edge is going to come from learning the meta and boarding answers specifically for it. I'm a big believer in the sideboard being where your deck is actually at. Shells don't vary much, when you get right down to it. Sideboards fit you into the meta and, ideally, help you kick it's ass.

I feel like you could
tweak your Devotion list a bit, though. Maybe drop the Mutavault in favor of 22 Mountains (so nothing keeps you from a Reckoner on curve) and try to squeeze those Satyrs in because, like Z said, Devotion plays permanents and Pyro plays spells.

I did some tweaking/testing aganst what few people are around me. I decide on devotion, cause I'm judt more cmfortable with it. My decklist is in that thread. Mind giving your thoughts

[Self Medicated]

Thinking about going with a Tymaret Pyro list and I have a question? In a local meta that is fairly aggro-centric, is Thoughtseize even good in the SB? I mean, I'll still run into some midrange and control decks from time to time, so maybe a 2-of?

[Nuwen]

In my experience, Thoughtseize is really only good against midrange (where each of their individual cards out values yours significantly). I wouldn't play it against control, because THEIR plan is to 1-1 you. Unless you by chance catch a Verdict or Sphinx's, the Thoughtseize just contributes to control's plan. Even if you do go up against Verdict/Sphinx's hand I find that I win more by sandbagging burn (which would be replaced by Thoughtseize, if it came in) in response to Sphinx's. More burn less problems.

Tymaret and Phoenix is the most fun I've had all week. There are some pretty cool lines in this deck. Thank you!

[Self Medicated]

Ok. I'll try it out and see how much midrange I run up against.

[Link]

I think nuwen means Tymaret and Young P$***

she got out like 8 tokens against junk with a tymaret on board...

literally shit all I could do, blood baron or not

[Aodh]

I saw the Naya Deck and really liked it; not sure if Esper or American would be better, but Naya lets you run super-friends mode which is nice; I think tap-out control's where we want to be.

[LaZerBurn]

Ok, I think I did this right

In my quest to be a truly awesome Red Mage I've a question for you all - what is the optimal play?

[zemanjaski]

I think you already misplayed not killing the raptor when it was a 1/2; now you have two 2/3 fliers you can't favourably interact with. You've already made your land drop for the turn, so FFS go aiming to try and make something out of his trigger plus vault and/or Phoenix is about all you have.

Honestly think you put yourself way behind already though.

[LaZerBurn]

Thanks for the feedback Zem I agree but I don't think could have done it differently; he played T1 Raptor then T2 Judge so I made YP off the BTE rather than the Jet, thinking he would just counter it with the Judge. My plan was to cast the Jet T3 (and get the token) or draw Lightning Strike if he made a T3 drop, which he did. Was my thinking/strategy sound or flawed?

I actually played the Phoenix and unsurprisingly eventually lost the game.

[Elricity]

Making a play gambling on a 4/51 chance that is guaranteed to fall flat if you fail to hit it is too poor of odds. Might as well force him to use the bird. Best case scenario is he doesn't for some reason, worst case, you lowered his devotion a little.

There's so very rarely a reason to play YP so early unless you're going to a) already planning to play a valuable spell, b) sure the board will be clear enough that YP and the token himself become valuable. The chances were so far against either happening so you were probably better off just giving him a chance to misplay.

Playing phoenix turn 3 was equally the same problem. Might as well swing with BTE and see if he does something dumb. You already knew you were going to neither attack or block with CP so why cast it? Worst case, he doesn't block, you do two damage, and cast CP anyway. and if the bird was already dead, you could have swung with YP and he either takes
4 or he double blocks and you get rid of the specter. This leaves you with CP in hand, mutavault on board, 2 scry, and him with a raptor. Better than that board clog.

Honestly, looks like a dirty situation from the start. Your only way out was to go aggressive and hope to put him in a position where he wants to block.

[LaZerBurn]

Thanks Elricity Feedback like this is incredibly helpful and hugely appreciated

[dpaine88]

Black would get my vote. Thoughtsieze seems awesome.

Then it brings up the whole discussion of what color to be the primary color.

I really do like BTE right now though, and I don't think he can be played with 4 taplands.

Do you think the power of black would be worth the rest of the issues that come with splashing such as consistency, tap lands and BTE.

[Narcasus]

Anyone test last breath at all yet? I feel it has a lot of strength in the current meta for us. it hits the targets in mono blue and it also hits most targets in mono black. Best, they cant whip back what you last breath. I am thinking trying to shove 3 into the sideboard. My siding would be something like -4 shock -3 magma jet, +2 chains +2 mortars +3 last breath against mono black and -8 one drops and +3 last breath +2 mortars +2 chains +1 hammer against mono blue. Ganna be running pyro boros again at fnm and i might take it down to indy as well. Any thoughts?

[dpaine88]

I ran it as a 5th Chained vs Mono Blue in the last big event I did...course I dodged mono blue for 9 rounds lol

[LP, of the Fires]

Throw me a shell with black in it and I'll do some testing. I'm pretty free right now and can hammer out some games.

[zemanjaski]

See I think you're just better off playing traditional Rakdos aggro if you go RB.

[dpaine88]

See I think you're just better off playing traditional Rakdos aggro if you go RB.

Exactly what I was thinking.

The black shell is pretty damn good in itself, then you can just splash red for burn and Jester.

[Helios]

RE: Lazer- At that point FFS seems like this best play. Crackbacks for 8 are pretty significant.

[F.I.A]

@Lazer: Like what Zem said, you'd want to remove the raptor, even if it'll be countered by the familiar.

At that condition, you could only bait with BTE and Magma jet in response (And hopefully dig into a Lightning Strike). If they wouldn't bite, Firefist Striker and hope they didn't have MoW.

On the other hand, I guess I figured out why Adrian Sullivan has a lone [card]Chandra's Outrage[/card] in his sideboard. You can actually use a phoenix to block a DD, then burn it off and recur the phoenix back. It's certainly value albeit expensive.

[JWarson88]

Now before I get flamed on understand this is a thought experiment more than serious promoting of deck configuration. The thought came to me when Z man compared pyrored to delver decks 2 seasons ago. That and people inquiring about an acceptable pump spell led me to want to experiment with two cards in the pyro red deck.

Pyrewild Shaman The complaint against titan strength is that it is a dead card if there are no creatures. This can be a chump blocker, boost a creature, and the big kicker, is recurable. We've discussed in full the fact that pyro red gains value from card advantage engines such as YP$ and Chandra's Phoenix. While not directly linked with the other two I feel its recurring ability makes it atleast something worth testing.

Spark Jolt Z man mentioned this one when first brewing pyro red. I love shock, but I sometimes feel that I just never have
enough removal to disrupt opposing aggro decks. Suprisingly a lot of the one drops fold to this card including with the exception of Rakdos cackler. The scrying would help smooth draws a little further as well.

4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 shock
4 lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Spark Jolt
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
17 Mountain
4 Mutavault

Side Board
3 Skullcrack
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 traitorous Instinct

I know that I am short on red sources in the main based on the math, and am nowhere near the suggested red sources to cast reckoner on curve. My hope is that there is enough scry in the deck where that the xerox theory can be applied. That and this deck is more or less a rough draft to see if the specific cards have any reasonable application. I think these cards have potential, and can help with the g monsters people have been having trouble with.
the sb needs a lot of refining but the idea is to be able to board against nonblack midrange decks.

I welcome all criticism because I truly believe the members of this clan provide the most constructive criticism in terms of deck construction. I even accept that this may be an epic fail of an idea. However I can't just sit idly by as members like Z, Khaos, LP and others share their ideas with us without attempting to atleast create my own. This is a chance for me to begin the process of understanding deck construction. Still be gentle, don't know if I can survive a thirst sized cock punching through my ideas just yet.

[LaZerBurn]

@ Helios - thanks for the feedback

@ F.I.A. - further thanks to you too

@ Narcasus - Last Breath was first mentioned as a potential 5th Chains against Mono U a few pages back and it is a viable option; I'm not sure you need it against Mono B though - I prefer Wear/Tear for the Whip or Crack or the Merchant.

[dpaine88]

I think you already misplayed not killing the raptor when it was a 1/2; now you have two 2/3 fliers you can't favourably interact with. You've already made your land drop for the turn, so FFS go aiming to try and make something out of his trigger plus vault and/or Phoenix is about all you have.

Honestly think you put yourself way behind already though.

Wouldn't he have the two 2/3 fliers anyways? The Raptor would be a 1/2 after Judge then Judge would be sacrificed, then he plays Specter and evolves Raptor into 2/3.

Its early...maybe I am missing something here.

[zemanjaski]

You missed reading the intervening discussion yep.

[Elricity]

I've been testing with Last Breath for a few games but 9 times out of 10, I would prefer it be mortars. It's not a dead card in a lot of matchups but it's not significantly better to actually sideboard in versus a typical agro deck either. I guess the question is what percentage of the decks would there have to be in the meta for chained # 5 & 6 be important enough to put in?

The exile is only really relevant vs [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] and mildly relevant for Voice of Resurgence but I don't think I've seen it in two weeks. You could argue it's useful versus mono black to neuter Nightveil specter/Gray merchant of asphodel whip of Erebos recursion but it slows you way down if they don't have either of those two in play and you're
wanting to make Young Pyromancer tokens to keep a Desecration Demon down. Also, that's the worst matchup to feed your opponent life.

Being a white spell is only relevant for Fiendslayer Paladin and Master of Waves.

Hitting 5+ toughness creatures is relevant for Trostani or if the blue chuckleheads actually do start playing Wall of Frost.

There's a few other fringe creatures (Tymarat, Xanthid, etc) where the exile effect would matter significantly if decks start popping up using them. I certainly would make a point of not forgetting the card exists.

[windstrider]

It looks like I can head out to play tonight. Going to take Walter White out with the following configuration. The only change I'm considering is the 3 Skullcracks over the 3 Peak Eruptions I had there earlier. I'm mainly concerned with the Black Devotion matchup and Gary. There are plenty of answers for the Demon: it's the lifegain since even denying it one good lifegain can seal doom for that deck.

Is that too much for just one deck?

[deck]Walter White, aka PyroWhite[/deck]

[Purp]

List is solid Windstrider. I have been wanting a 3rd mortars to help answer a cloudfin that could get out of hand. I think if you expect more midrange/control that is a good setup. However if you expect aggro/midrange id like one more mortar

[magicdownunder]

Hey Zemanjaski as promised I tested your RW list and created some videos and comment - here was the list that I ran:

[deck=Zemanjaski's Winter Aussie BBQ]Lands 23
12x Mountain
04x Sacred Foundry
04x Temple of Triumph
02x Mutavault
01x Plains

Creatures 20
04x Ash Zealot
04x Chandra's Phoenix
04x Firedrinker Satyr
04x Rakdos Cackler
04x Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers 03
03x Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments 02
02x Chained to the Rocks

Instants 12
04x Lightning Strike
04x Magma Jet
04x Shock

Sideboard 15
04x Boros Reckoner
03x Skullcrack
02x Boros Charm
02x Chained to the Rocks
02x Mizzium Mortars
01x Hammer of Purphoros
01x Assemble the Legions[/deck]

My initial thoughts:
1) I miss explosive BtE starts
2) I miss drawing into Mutavault with ease
3) I miss Firefist Striker
4) Opening hands with only Temple of Triumph and one drops to play really sucks.

Proceeded to play a daily
Event of my kettles (busy days, but meh might as well) proceeded to go 3-1 which is great considering how badly I piloted the deck.

Here are the replays, they come with a warning:

G1: MonoBlack Devotion
G2: Esper Control
G3: MonoRed Devotion
G4: MonoBlue Devotion

Post Event thoughts:
1) Scry lands are quite strong
2) I still miss Mutavault
3) Losing Firefist Striker and BtE is acceptable
4) Assemble the Legions is HORRIBLE vs UW/x Control

Made some adjustments and found a more acceptable time to play a Standard Daily Event and proceeded to go 4-0 running:

[deck=Zemanjaski's Winter Aussie BBQ]Lands 23
12x Mountain
04x Sacred Foundry
04x Temple of
Triumph
02x Mutavault
01x Plains

Creatures 20
04x Ash Zealot
04x Chandra's Phoenix
04x Firedrinker Satyr
04x Rakdos Cackler
04x Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers 03
03x Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments 02
02x Chained to the Rocks

Instants 12
04x Lightning Strike
04x Magma Jet
04x Shock

Sideboard 15
04x Boros Reckoner
02x Skullcrack
02x Boros Charm
02x Chained to the Rocks
02x Mizzium Mortars
02x Fanatic of Mogis
01x Hammer of Purphoros[/deck]

I'll post those videos later tomorrow, I feel that Temple of Triumph + Magma Jet + Chandra, Pyromaster is what makes this list click so well. GR Colossus is still a bad MU - threaten doesn't work so I opted to run 02x Fanatic of Mogis which go with 04x Boros Reckoner for curve and pray approach.

The only change I want to make with the MD is that singleton Plains I drew it as my 2nd land in a critical stage it almost ruined me, I understand it purpose but I think with the scry we can just stick
with 8 white sources (its not like we need to Chained a creature during the early turns often) so I'll try a extra Mutavault in its place (for now).

I won't discuss the Side Board Strategies since I notice that its frowned upon on this forums but I'll PM you with em later.

p.s. 5 more QPS till I'm in the finals
p.s.s. if you have MODO you can just watch the 4-0 yourself its the Daily event 6162746

[windstrider]

List is solid Windstrider. I have been wanting a 3rd mortars to help answer a cloudfin that could get out of hand. I think if you expect more midrange/control that is a good setup. However if you expect aggro/midrange id like one more mortar

Chained answers almost everything, so I don't think I need more outright removal. Though more Mortars is almost always a good thing as well,

I'm thinking more about the Gray Merchant nonsense since my current plan is to kill everything before it comes down. I'm wondering if Skullcrack is too reactive. If nothing else, it's another way to recur the Phoenix.

[Zooligan]

4) Assemble the Legions is HORRIBLE vs UW/x Control

Really? What was the scenario/outcome that led you to this conclusion?

[Purp]

[quote="magicdownunder » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:58 am"

I won't discuss the Side Board Strategies since I notice that its frowned upon on this forums but I'll PM you with em later.

[/quote]

There's sideboard strategies all over this thread.

[windstrider]

Noticed that as well. The only thing that's really frowned upon is not looking for answers first. Sideboard stuff is ok to discuss, but those strategies should be taken as general recommendations only, not gospel.

[Helios]

Thanks for the report, magic! Discussing SB strategies is perfectly fine - we do it all the time. Like windstrider said, what's frowned upon is asking for a "guide" and not doing any research/making the effort to understand what's happening.

[F.I.A]

DE time. Another that I'm not proud of. (1-2)

---

[deck]4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-tree Emmisary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Chandra, Best Card in Standard

4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Sideboard
3 Act of Treason
2 Frostburn Weird
3 Skullcrack
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Flames of the Firebrand[/deck]

1st Match - NHK - Red Devo (2-0)
1 Satyr, 2 Burning-tree, 2 Mountains, 1 Shock, 1 Lightning Strike

Game 1
He mulled to 6. I proceeded to beat him down with BTEs.

+2 Flames of the Firebrand, +2 Frostburn Weird, +4 Mizzium Mortars

1 Burning-tree 1 Mutavault 1 Mizzium Mortars 1 Chandra's Phoenix

It was a close game. He got me down to 3, and had he drawn even a Shock, he could have won the game by going for the dome and recurring his Phoenix.

[quote:
1409xnj7]2nd Match - MotleyLue - Big Boros (0-2)
Game 1

Hand: 3 mountains, 1 cacker, 2 shock, 1 mutavault

I got distracted by another game, so I didn't recall much except a Dragon beating down on me. He also packed Wild Guess to filter his draw, according to him.

+2 Flames of the Firebrand, +2 Frostburn Weird, +4 Mizzium Mortars

Game 2

Hand: 2 Firefist Striker, 1 Frostburn Weird, 2 Magma Jet, 1 Mountain, 1 Mutavault

I was able to trade the Weird with a Reckoner, but he was able to land a Chandra and took out the Striker. With a few Wild Guess and Chandra's 0, he ended the game with two Dragons in play. I also flooded badly to make any decent play.[/quote]

3rd Match - Shireidark - Mono Green (0-2)
4 Mountains, 2 Chandra's Phoenix, 1 Magma Jet

He played first but I was able to kill his mana producer. However, turn 4 came Polukranos and then Ahbor Titan.

-4 Rakdos
Cackler, -4 Firedrinker Satyr, +2 Flames of the Firebrand, +2 Frostburn Weird, +1 Mizzium Mortars, +3 Act of Treason

Game 2

I thought I was winning with 2 BTEs spam. He spammed thrice, healed back with a centaur, then Polukranos and Reverent Hero.

Lesson(s) learned:
- Tried Nivmagus Elemental in some 2-mans. From the test, we don't really want to burn our resources except it's Hidden Strings, so back to the weird/reckoner.
- Chandra is devastating against this deck with the ability to ping 12 of our dudes.
- Maybe I was just unlucky (or I still didn't know how to pilot this deck right. Not too used with Firefist myself), but those last two matches looked like bad match-ups for me. Then again, they were good players, so I didn't feel too bad about it.

[Elricity]

Here are the replays, they come with a warning:

G1: MonoBlack Devotion
G2: Esper Control
G3: MonoRed Devotion
G4: MonoBlue Devotion

I'm watching the black video now. I am really, really curious why these decks throw doom blades at the phoenix at the beginning of the game. When we're clearly playing 1 drops, they never decide to go "well, maybe he'll play something else that doesn't
come back 100 times".

It boggles the mind.

A bit of criticism. There's almost never a reason to tap out and play a young pyromancer against likely removal, particularly against black where those tokens are often vital. You are far better off casting it with open mana so that if they do remove YP, you at least have the option of burning the player and "drawing cards" by pushing tokens onto the board for future damage. If you don't have the burn to make tokens yet, hold the card unless the 2/1 itself is actually going to determine the game. I have a similar opinion of Chandra that she shouldn't be played until she can "draw" a card (you waited until she drew you the phoenix which is good).

Edit: You almost lost your esper matchup due to YP removal too.

Edit 2: You missed the chance to chain Thassa on game 2. I think you had that game in the bag until that misplay.

Otherwise it was pretty good.