[Primer] PyroRed

[Khaospawn]

For sake of anyone who doesn't frequent the FoS clan thread, y'all are in a well-deserved spotlight. Josh Silvestri in this article recognizes the unique power of Pyromancer Red and gives zemanjaski much-overdue props as an innovator in the wielding of fire.

To Helios and the rest of you who have taken up and championed the archetype, WELL DONE!!

WE'RE NOT WORTHY! WE'RE NOT WORTHY!



Party on, Z. And party on, PyroRed players.

[zemanjaski]

I've been charmed by Tymaret and the BR Pyro variant posted couple of pages back. I really want to take it out to FNM this week.

Working on the sideboard, this is where I am at the moment:

[deck]Land:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
4 Swamp

Creature:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Spike Jester
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other:
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard:
4 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Thoughtseize
1 Skullcrack
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Act of Treason[/deck]

I'd gladly replace at least some of the doom blades with something like Olivia was in Dos Rakis before the rotation. Reckoner would be a
boss here, but is RRR too tough to cough up on time? Swamps could turn into Godless Shrines, but that is probably a route to madness.

Sideboard has following packages to consider bringing in:
- 2 Dreadbore, 2 Mortars, 4 "Doomblade" against aggro decks
- 1 Hammer, 1 Skullcrack, 2 Thoughtseize against control decks
- 1 Hammer, 3 Act against Desecration Demon decks

Everything except Skullcrack and Hammer can be brought against Gx ramp and midrange decks.

Tips, suggestions and criticism are all welcomed. I wish this variant gets some sweet cards in the next expansion in addition to the BR scy land.

Looks great actually. I'd be bringing in Dreadbore against MonoB as well since clearing away a Desecration Demon or Merchant and getting to add to the board in the same turn is a huge game.

I'd also go 3x doom blade, 1x ultimate price since there is a small upside to the slightly different effect.

Your YP are going to be terrifying in post board games (up to 22 spells!)

[Jack]

For sake of anyone who doesn't frequent the FoS clan thread, y'all are in a well-deserved spotlight. Josh Silvestri in this article recognizes the unique power of Pyromancer Red and gives zemanjaski much-overdue props as an innovator in the wielding of fire.

To Helios and the rest of you who have taken up and championed the archetype, WELL DONE!!

-->

WE'RE NOT WORTHY! WE'RE NOT WORTHY!



Party on, Z. And party on, PyroRed players.

Z's World! Z's World! Party on! Excellent!

[Yarpus]

Consider SB Erebos instead of Skullcrack.
You nerf lifelink.
You draw cards.
You don't even want it to become a creature actually.

Also congrats Zem. Well-deserved.

[chlb]

Looks great actually. I'd be bringing in Dreadbore against MonoB as well since clearing away a Desecration Demon or Merchant and getting to add to the board in the same turn is a huge game.

I'd also go 3x doom blade, 1x ultimate price since there is a small upside to the slightly different effect.

Your YP are going to be terrifying in post board games (up to 22 spells!)

Thanks for the feedback and congratulations, zem.

Good call on the Dreadbore vs. MonoB, I guess either 2 Jester/Tymaret/Lightning could be the swap. I have not played against a Merchant list yet, so I don't yet know which of those cards packs the least punch against that deck.

If I'm going to side in Doom Blades only against aggro, then there are so many targets Ultimate
Price doesn't hit (cackler, BTE, reckoner, rampager, frostburn, fleecemane, smiter, ...). Interestingly Blade doesn't hit Cackler either, but he is easy to dispatch off with other means. Good blade-proof targets for Price are Desecration Demon and Gary, so I will definately consider the 3/1 split if MonoB proves out to be a problem matchup.

Consider SB Erebos instead of Skullcrack.

That's actually a nice idea, seeing my skullcrack is only a singleton. He blanks revelations quite nicely, providing they can't find Detention Sphere. Have to test him out tomorrow.

[zemanjaski]

Erobos is a REALLY good idea.

Yarpus is a great card detective.

[DocLawless]

I'm jumping on the RB wagon too. I was going to wait until Born of the Gods to start brewing, but until then I'll just pretend Rakdos Guildgate lets me scry.

Good blade-proof targets for Price are Desecration Demon and Gary, so I will definately consider the 3/1 split if MonoB proves out to be a problem matchup.

Humor me... who's Gary?

[zemanjaski]

Cut magma jet or shock vs mono B; they don't kill anything anyway.

Gary = Gray Merchant of Asphodel.

[Yarpus]

Yarpus is a great card detective.

Ral fucking Zarek

[zemanjaski]

Consider this vs. Mono B.
You've got Cackler, Spike Jester and Erobos in play. They play Desecration Demon, you play Act of Treason.

Erobos is a great call with wide applications.

Ral Zarek is unplayable outside of cube.

[Aodh]

Lolz. Get punked.

[Yarpus]

I'd consider Erebos to be more of lifegain houser with Greed strapped onto it. It's like Hammer of Purphoros. Have two effects that wouldn't be playable when printed on separate cards - blend them into one and have a good card. And unlike Skullfuck, he actually answers Whip of Erebos pretty damn well.
Creature? Yeah, he might become one - but you don't need to count on it to actually know the value of a card in certain matchups.

Damn. I'll prove you one day that Zarek is good. One day....

[zemanjaski]

I agree. The two abilities on Erobos are actually worth a card even if he never becomes a creature.

[Yarpus]

Especially in the Control matchup. Life is not an important resource, so feel free to Greed the shit out of it. And you still tell them "as long as this bad boy is here, no Sphinx's Revelation bro".
Against Mono B that would be harder I guess. You need to be carefull when drawing cards (I'd hesitate from that unless situation gets into "do or die" mode).

[Elricity]

R4: Mono Red - This was funny because I was going into R4 at #1 seed. I said I was going to play and everyone else seemed a bit mad. My opponent gave me the whole "your only making this bad for me, we could draw and youd still be number 1 seed etcc." I had said I came to play magic (don't get to as much as id like due to work and girlfriend) and I was not going to draw. He then proceeded to say we could draw and just play for fun, and I responded with "People play differently when they are doing it for seeding or for fun, I came to play magic." AM I a dick?

Not a dick,
no. Being a dick would entail saying something like: "I want to play because I don't want you to make top 8", or having that type of attitude about it. Your intentions weren't bad.

What about if you want a chance to push your opponent out of top 8 because he's playing a deck that is a weak matchup for you? That seems a legitimate, competitive reason to say "no offense, but I really don't want to play against your deck in the finals."

[notap123]

Has there been any discussion about bringing in Coordinated Assault or Weapon Surge in lieu of Shock? It seems to me that either choice has the potential to do equal dmg and then some (weapon surged elementals). I would imagine circumstances where either could pull 2 for 1 as well.

Just spitballing. If I get all my pieces in the mail I'll give it a shot this friday and see what happens.

[zemanjaski]

This discussion can stop. It's not related to red deck theory so can take place elsewhere. There is no rule staying that you have to ID so there is no need to justify not doing so.

[Elricity]

Weapon surge is cute as a surprise defense with tokens but it doesn't sound like the meta game is currently in favor of creature combat tricks. I wouldn't use coordinated assault only because it can't buff elementals that would come into play with Young Pyromancer. A lone Pyro suddenly becomes 5 first strike damage.

[zemanjaski]

Pretty absurd yeah. There are definitely metas where I can see buffs being good, but right now spot removal is just better, and shock rebuys Phoenix / has synergy with Chandra.

[DocLawless]

I'm a fan of burn over combat tricks in general. A well placed Shock turns a chump block into a trade.

[Solemn10]

So many cards, so few slots... Erebos is a good answer to obzedat tho. 2 life loss a turn isn't scary and it'll force them to not blink him.

[notap123]

I guess I was looking at them more as insurance when swinging into opponent's creatures. As an example Firedrinker Satyr into a x/3 body, saves you from losing tempo by saving your satyr and you from the dmg.

[DocLawless]

If I were playing Obzedat and they dropped an Erebos on me, I'd keep blinking him. They'd still lose 2 Life a turn and Papi would still be immune to sorcery-speed removal.

[notap123]

I forgot to ask if Boros Reckoner got cut from the sb of Z's latest list due to the 4 mutavaults?

[zemanjaski]

Yeah it's not castable. I had to settle for 2 Flames and 2 Weird instead; they're a lot worse but it's the best I can do with my mana.

[LP, of the Fires]

You know what would be the single biggest reason for me opting to play this deck?

It's correct to draw in the mirror. Which is something I've been wanting to do FOREVER.

[zemanjaski]

I can confirm that it's correct, been winning a lot of mirrors, except for the multiple Reckoner on turn 3/4 nutdraw.

[notap123]

Yeah it's not castable. I had to settle for 2 Flames and 2 Weird instead; they're a lot worse but it's the best I can do with my mana.

I'm curious if you think it would be worth putting 2 mountains in SB to run Reckoners instead.

Forgive me if this comes across as dense but why would you want to be on the draw? (from the post above)

[zemanjaski]

I think 2 mountains plus 4 Reckoners is too much space, but you're welcome to try.

Drawing is correct because you're taking out 1 drops in the mirror, so you only have four turn 1 plays. The extra card is worth more than 2 life, which you'll only lose if they have the Cackler into Ash Zealot but draw; so it's often just a free card.

[LP, of the Fires]

Card advantage. Everything in the mirror trades off, so being on the draw means after the board is clear, you should have an extra card.

Why this deck makes it work?

-You play 4 shocks. If shocks in your opener, it kills there turn one play which is a straight across trade and better, if they have no one-drop, and then go say ash zealot or whatever, your shock became spell snare.
-Burning-tree helps you regain temp parity as if you weren't on the draw.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah I've found BTE on the draw is huge. Really exaggerates the effect of the extra card as the biggest constraint in making it effective is mana constraint; it can take quite a while to make the extra card count, and if that means losing 4-6 extra life it probably wouldn't be worth the effort. However, BTE lets you out the card to use as early as turn 2; even drawn late, accelerating out an extra spell in a matchup where 90% of the cards are fungible is huge.

[notap123]

That makes more sense. So if I feel like I one for one the first game (even if it isn't a mirror) should I consider being on the draw?

[zemanjaski]

I wouldn't. In my experience this is pretty unique to the red mirror. The biggest reason, in my opinion, is that all the 1 and 2 drops are pretty much identical and of the same value; even Fanatic of Mogis trades with all the littlies.

Even in other 1-for-1 matchups it's not really the same. However, that's not to say its never correct; it's more that I'm not comfortable telling you that it's correct!

[Solemn10]

If I were playing Obzedat and they dropped an Erebos on me, I'd keep blinking him. They'd still lose 2 Life a turn and Papi would still be immune to sorcery-speed removal.

The 2 life loss from obzedat isn't what makes him the pain in the ass vs aggro. It's the 2 lifegain. If you have a board state where you can afford a turn 5 take 2 damage a turn spell you're probably already winning. Ofc in a b/w aggro deck it'll be fine but I'm talking about in the whip/obzedat/blood baron midrange decks they probably can't afford to blink as you've turned off blood baron as well.

[DocLawless]

The 2 life loss from obzedat isn't what makes him the pain in the ass vs aggro. It's the 2 lifegain. If you have a board state where you can afford a turn 5 take 2 damage a turn spell you're probably already winning. Ofc in a b/w aggro deck it'll be fine but I'm talking about in the whip/obzedat/blood baron midrange decks they probably can't afford to blink as you've turned off blood baron as well.

Fair. I was thinking about him as the beatdown rather than vs the beatdown. When I was playing RBW midrange I ran him with Stormbreath Dragon which, you're right, is a board that's already winning. Minus that board advantage I'd need him to be a body.

[Jack]

On playing on the draw in the mirror:
It really depends on how different your deck can be from your opponent's and still be called a mirror by your standards. If I'm playing the mono red list I brought to states (version 1.3, I think), I'd like to be on the draw if I was playing a carbon copy of my deck. With the current version I'm running that splashes white, I'd still want to be on the draw against a carbon copy of my deck or against my states list. However (Note: I'll be talking about PyRos from now on), I'm not letting any BTE deck be on the play if I have any say in the matter when I don't have a potential BTE hand to make up for being a turn behind. Even though I have no turn 1 play against Devotion Red in game 2, I want to be able to land a 2 drop before they do so that I can burn away their turn 2 play before it can do anything. I believe this is what the phrase "trading down" means--making
trades when you're already ahead on the board. I want my removal spell to generate vca and put me ahead on the board after I use it. Say I have an Ash Zealot and a Mortars in my opener and they have a pair of BTEs in theirs. If I'm on they play, I can drop Ashley turn 2, they play double BTE and I Mortars one turn 3, generating vca and putting me ahead. If I'm on the draw, they drop double BTE turn 2. My choices now are to either Mortars one, in which case I am still behind on the board, or drop Ashley, in which case shit just gets awkward (Ash Zealot is probably the right play here, since they might have a Reckoner that you want to save your Mortars for, but my point is that I'd rather be on the play).
Against all-in variants, I want to be on the play because I don't want to give them the first turn and we already see more effective cards than they do in a game that we will end up winning. This might sound stupid, but it makes sense. One of the big points Z makes when explaining the basics
of the idea of virtual card advantage is that a card you can never cast isn't really a card. What good is the extra card we gain from being on the draw if we can't cast it because they win since they got to take the first turn? Conversely, how much good does that 8th card do them when it's ineffective in the long game, as most of the red 1 drops in the current standard are?
Z's mono red deck is designed to beat the online meta, and plays differently from the builds that splash white and even the mono red builds from 2-3 weeks ago.

[zemanjaski]

Solid analysis is solid redbro.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I'd love some feedback on my potential fnm deck e.e

[deck]
Creatures:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Burning-Tree Emissry
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner

Burn:
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock

Thighs:
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land:
21 Mountain
1 Mutavault


Sideboard:
3 Peak Eruption
3 Act of Treason
2 Skullcrack
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

[Jack]

I think BTE might not be very good in this deck. Besides another BTE or (depending on your opponent) YP$, there isn't much that you want to cast off of him. If they don't have a creature, your burn is more effective if you hold onto it because of Phoenix and YP$. Some players have had success with Firefist Striker (not bad off of BTE. It's not LM or Flinthoof Boar, but it's not bad). Maybe you should consider that. Otherwise, I'd cut BTE.

[InflatablePie]

Nothing interesting tonight at WNM. Round 1 vs the BW Midrange deck I warmed up against last week. Lost 1-2, last game couldn't draw an answer to an out-of-control Archangel nor could I race it. Round 2 vs the Dega player from Game Day's semifinals. Lost 1-2, +1'd Chandra to 7 thinking he didn't have the Dreadbore/Murderbore since he had time+mana to use it last turn, but he did. I used a Jet the turn after, scryed two lands to the bottom, so I guess the card acceleration wouldn't have helped much. Died to Whip+DDemon.

No chance at top 8, figured I'd still practice some more. Round 3 vs Esper, won 2-0 in roughly 14 minutes. (had 4 power on board, he had 6-7 mana, I upkeeped a Boros Charm, he tapped out for Rev, I cracked). Dropped and gave him a 2-1 since he was still gonna play. Wasn't gonna wait around the 36 minutes plus waiting for pairings to practice another match (well, two) if I wasn't winning anything. So I
biked home.

My Champion mat is cursed