[Primer] PyroRed

[Woj]

Is it just me or is standard shaping up to be less fun than it was? =/

I was really enjoying the original PyroRed in the grindy creature matchups and control as opposed to now it feels like were playing a sligh / swarm game against midrange stuff. Feels like BTE and FFS make us much more linear aggro? am I wrong on this?

Idk maybe just me with ans studying for exams but it makes me want to play Modern Living End

[dpaine88]

What decks were your losses to Zem?

[zemanjaski]

It's definitely more linear than it was, but the face of the format has changed. Now enemy no. 1 is doom blade.

I lost to:
- Mono U where he went cloudfin > Tidebinder > spectre > master in games 1 and 3. Meh; and
- UW Control where I just made an error one game and a misclick in other (skipped a combat step and he topdecked a wrath).

I'm not that worried about it. My wins were Mono U and Mono B.

[Woj]

Could another acceptable way to combat doom blade be moving to a more black creature base to better invalidate their removal?

I.e. spike jester and Tymaret at 2?

Haven't done enough testing in the current meta (mono U and B everywhere) as it compares to BTE & FFS monored; however I know it is very strong vs control and midrange

[zemanjaski]

Black gives you clean answers to Master of Waves as well, but I'm not sure black is better than white. Chained to the Rocks and Boros Reckoner are just crazy good cards.

[Helios]

Plus mana.

[Woj]

Absolutely I agree, White definitely helps more vs aggro; however I am unsure which is best for a midrange meta like we are facing now.
For example we don't have reckoner in our mono-red 75 (and obviously no Chains)

I have found Thoughtseize with YP$ to be absolutely bonkers FWIW

Helios: I absolutely agree having the scry land is what probably puts White over Black on a power level; however effectiveness in the doomblade / midrange meta is another question IMO

[dpaine88]

Black splash for Doom Blade/Ulitmate Price and Thoughtsieze would be pretty dirty...

[Woj]

I've liked Dreadbore the best TBH; although I've been running some number of Ults and Doom in the SB

Really accentuates the power of YP$ although you dilute your burn and then your Pheonixes get sad and you have less tools to close with; so I'm not convinced running so many terrors in the 75 is actually good.

Unsure if my ramblings actually have anything to them; just my thoughts / experience / bias.

[Helios]

Agree that Dreadbore > all the things.

[F.I.A]

Might need to wait for the next expansion before considering options other than White. Tapped lands just don't cut it without the scry attached.

Dreadbore might be less favorable since it cannot hit MoW, though.

[Woj]

Dreadbore might be less favorable since it cannot hit MoW, though.

Absolutely, this is largely why Ult and Doom were in the 75 which is definitely not efficient use of slots

[F.I.A]

Well, now that I think about it, aside from the MoW (or the occasional Witchstalker), Dreadbore is certainly maindeckable. It is never bad even against control since they still play pws like Jace or Elspeth.

There is [card]Hero's Downfall[/card], but I don't think we can splash that with all the [mana]rr[/mana] stuff we are running.

[Helios]

Seems like a meta call. In my meta, there are only 2 guys playing MoW, but a ton playing Elspeth. If you expect 1/3 of your matchups to be Mono U, like Z is finding on modo, then other cards are better.

Also white has ballin SB options.

[windstrider]

There's also Glare of Heresy to consider if GW is prominent in your area.

[Solemn10]

I played a R/b version of pyrored to the finals at game day.
[deck]
23 land
2 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Swamp
11 Mountain

20 Creatures
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner

17 Spells
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
4 Mizzium Mortars

Sideboard
4 Doom Blade
3 Frostburn Weird
3 Thoughtseize
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Rakdos Charm
[/deck]

Round 1
B/w Midrange?
Turns out that whip into erebos or whip into DD is not good vs aggro.
2-0
1-0

Round 2
U/g MoW
He turned my reckoner and Phoenix into swine before casting MoW... I now have GREEN pigs to block him and Chandra ate all his tokens.
2-1
2-0

Round 3
Monored Devotion
Game 1 we trade and burn but he comes out ahead as he drew 3 reckoners to my one.
Game 2 mull to 5 with Guildgate cackler jet mortars chandra. He curves out.
0-2
2-1
n
Round 4
Mono B
He durdles with life gain and gets his whip online and then it's over.
0-2
2-2

Round 5
Big Boros vs Johnny Spike
Game 1 I win the die roll and curve out.
Game 2 he curves out.
Game 3 I flood a bit but he is stuck on 4 land while having 2 dragons in hand and me almost having enough to go monstrous with dragon.
2-1
3-2

Top 8
Round 1
Monored from round 3
This time the deck works fine and I come out ahead.
He also made the misplay of a lifetime. He had 2 ash zealot and cackler swing into reckoner and I block one ash zealot and activate first strike. He responds by shocking the reckoner before first strike damages and I redirect 2 to the other ash zealot. First strike damages and throw 2 to the cackler. I could see all his friends face palm.
2-0

Round 2
Mono B control
I had an ash zealot and burn and burned everything he played while ash zealot hit for 2 a turn.
2-0

Finals
Mono green devotion.
I thought this would be an easy matchup but it turns out that
nylea is a house vs chump blockers
0-2

[dpaine88]

Good Job man.

I really think Ultimate price might be one of the best removal out there in this "mono devotion" metagame.

If I am splashing black, I gotta at least kill Master of Waves

[LaZerBurn]

I've tested the R/B variant quite a bit, largely due to the fact that Mono U gets a nuts draw 90% of the time I face it and the B version owns it Dreadbore is excellent, Doomblade is also good, though I agree with dpaine that UP is probably better in the current meta. Rakdos Charm is also really good - kills Whips, stops any G/Y shenanigans and can be great fun in a creature stand off You also get access to Illness in the Ranks if like me you have real issues with MoW Great against Elspeth too, though obviously there's a rather glaring lack of synergy with YP The tap lands are obviously not as
good as the scrylands but I've not found them to be actively bad either.

RSF is worth consideration against the sea of Mono B on MTGO as it gets past both Doomblade and UP. Not good with BTE but the potential loss of tempo may be negated by haste and it potentially staying alive longer.

GHC might be worth a look in the mono red version - it fits in with BTE and the AIR goldfish plan very nicely.

[dpaine88]

GHC is legit,love that card, but YP seems better with all the burn in the deck and tokens being amazing against Desecration Demon.

I think GHC is best when there are a lot of x/3's running around , but right now, there just isn't.

I think GHC would fit the AIR deck better, which this deck isn't. Not with YP and 12 burn spells.

-4 YP, -4 Shock, +4 GHC +4 Foundry Street would be my move if I was going to play GHC.

[hoeiberg]

@LaZerBurn: What does your list look like atm? And how well has it been doing?

I really want to build R/b myself and i am kind of torn between two different plans. One plan being the no bullshit aggro plan with haste creatures and very fast dmg. The other being a more control-ish plan, using the steady stream of creatures from YP$ and recurring phoenix to feed Tymaret and slowly grinding the enemy down. My own guess (no testing yet) is that the faster version will probably be better equipped to handle a meta with Mono B , B/W, Dega and Esper everywhere, but i wanted some opinions before i rush out and spend myself into poverty on magic cards.

[LaZerBurn]

@ hoeiberg - I only play on MTGO and I'm currently running Z's latest mono Red version - list is in the Primer - as in the current meta I think it is the best build.

I really like the concept of a R/B control build with Tymaret (Z actually posted a proposed list on here a while ago with Tymaret and Spike Jester) but I think it's way too slow for the current meta. For your reference my R/B list looks like this. Bear in mind it's out of date (off the top of my head I'd run Ultimate Price over Doomblade in the S/B today) and not as strong overall as Z's R/W Walter White build (also in the primer) that it is modelled on.

---

[deck]

Lands

4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Swamp
12 Mountain
2 Mutavault

Creatures
4 FDS
4 Cackler
4 YP
4 Phoenix
4 Ashley

Thighs
3 Chandra, Best Card in Standard


Spells
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Dreadbore

Board
4 Doom Blade
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer Of Purphoros
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Dreadbore

[/deck]

[Purp]

So here is a quick report from TNM last night.

Ran stock PyroBoros list with this as my SB:
[deck]
3 x Peak Eruption
1 x Assemble the Legion
2 x Mizzium Mortars
4 x Boros Reckoner
2 x Chained to the Rock
2 x Boros Charm
1 x Hammer[/deck]

R1: UB Mill

G1: Destroy Him
G2: YP locks down is demon while phoenix keeps poking. He had been milling me with ashiok all game which I didn't mind. He eventually has Aehterling and one of my Ash Zealots on board facing down my Phoenix, Ash Zealot and Chandra Best Card. He's at 5. I ping his aetherling, then play another Chandra Best Card and ping his ash zealot, swinging in for lethal 4
2-0

1-0
R2: BWR

G1: Made amazing plays which include shocking my phoenix during an anger of the gods, and then also magma jet the same phoenix later in the game to stop him from gaining 4 life after he tried to Warleader's Helix it.
G2: Stuck on lands on holding burn and Peak
Eruption
G3: See 3 chained the rocks, win game with mass tokens.
2-1
2-0

R3: Rw AIR

G1: He wins to me not knowing some of his heroic synergies.
G2 and G3: I go full control and just keep his board clear, he scoops in G3 after turn 7.
2-1

3-0

R4: Mono Red - This was funny because I was going into R4 at #1 seed. I said I was going to play and everyone else seemed a bit mad. My opponent gave me the whole "your only making this bad for me, we could draw and youd still be number 1 seed etcc." I had said I came to play magic (don't get to as much as id like due to work and girlfriend) and I was not going to draw. He then proceeded to say we could draw and just play for fun, and I responded with "People play differently when they are doing it for seeding or for fun, I came to play magic." AM I a dick?

G1: Close, he wins top decking lightning strike.
G2: win
G3: Double chandra wins
2-1

4-0

Top 8: Lose to Mono U. I have yet to win this matchup playing any deck with
red. I think I had a few misplays by not necessarily trying to create board state. Also forgot that YP tokens are red.

Changes? Peak Eruption seems meh. I'd proabbly change those to 2 x Threaten Effect, 1 x Mzzium Mortar

Also, this top 8 had three mono U and 2 mono B decks in it. they are becoming prevalent at my store here in Atlanta, tips for SB?

Ps- Upkeep Magma Jet OP. it's easy to get carried away with though

- Since YP tokens are red, have we considered Foundry Street Denizen in the Firedrinker slot?

[hoeiberg]

Thanks. My local meta is super heavy on B and B/W mid-range and Esper control, so while I realize that that the Walter White build is stronger over all i think maybe a Rakdos build could be better vs my meta. I'll start with what you have and get brewing

[LaZerBurn]

@ hoeiberg - in a sea of B RSF is worth testing as it is UP and Doomblade proof, good Vs Esper too In that meta I'd look Skullcrack in the board over Reckoner too

[soebek]

Regarding the BTE / Ash question, given the prevalence of Doom Blade 1-for-1 removal decks, and the lack of opportunities for first strike to shine, I'm inclined to agree with the majority that BTE just works better right now.

Also, hello everyone! I post in the MTSalvation thread, and just wanted to see the brewing going on here. I'll not post much -- I'm not an expert by any means unlike most of the red mages here -- but I'll be keeping an interested eye on developments!

[Purp]

Regarding the BTE / Ash question, given the prevalence of Doom Blade 1-for-1 removal decks, and the lack of opportunities for first strike to shine, I'm inclined to agree with the majority that BTE just works better right now.

Also, hello everyone! I post in the MTSalvation thread, and just wanted to see the brewing going on here. I'll not post much -- I'm not an expert by any means unlike most of the red mages here -- but I'll be keeping an interested eye on developments!

Welcome! Feel free to post your findings and suggestions. Also, I am inclined to agree with you that since the removal of the format seems to be less sweeper and more 1 for 1, BTE combos seems stronger.

[Helios]

Purp- Good work.

Solemn10- Good job! Thanks for the report. Thoughts on mana? Did you miss Pyromancer?

Welcome, soebek! Feel free to post and contribute to the discussion. Event reports are especially welcome.

[RedNihilist]

- Since YP tokens are red, have we considered Foundry Street Denizen in the Firedrinker slot?

Well, in fact I did (in another thread, though), as I tested the Denizen out before being able to actually get my Satyrs.
FSD is not *that* bad, yet it just underperforms.
We want him to always have 2 power, but having a base power of 1 really makes him underperforming.

Don't get me wrong: I've tried to make him work for a while and I still play him in my not-so-competitive Modern Goblin deck, but he does consistently his work only in the first 2-3 turns, and only when attacking.
The fact that YP allows him to have a very narrow firebreathing-like ability it's actually a trap.

I'm not going to start a Purge the Profane vs
Rakdos Return parallel here, but we want our deck to be as consistent as possible and cards like FSD or Blistercoil Weird are funny but far from being consistent.

[LaZerBurn]

@ hoeiburg - I'm by no means an expert but MTGO is down so I've been looking at the B/R deck If I was testing for your meta I'd start with 4 Dreadbore and 2 Shock main deck and this board.

[deck]
2 Skullcrack
2 Ultimate Price
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Hammer Of Purphoros
2 Devour Flesh
3 Flex Slot[/deck]

I'd then try this boarding plan

Vs Esper
- 2 Shock
- 2 Magma Jet
+ 2 Hammer
+ 2 Skullcrack

If he brings in Blood Baron you could put in the Mortars for 2 Magma Jet

Vs Mono B
- 2 Shock
- 4 Magma Jet
+ 2 Skullcrack
+ 2 Rakdos Charm
+ 2 Ultimate Price

Vs B/W Mid
- 4 FDS
+ 2 Mizzium Mortars
+ 2 Devour Flesh

[Helios]

Ultimate Price doesn't seem very good v. B/W midrange. What does it hit that Dreadbore doesn't?

[Solemn10]

The mana wasn't too bad as I'd cast reckoner after dealing with the opponent's and early on I'd bait removal with Phoenix or use the turn 3 to drop a tap/shock and play magma jet or lightning strike.

[chlb]

I've been charmed by Tymaret and the BR Pyro variant posted couple of pages back. I really want to take it out to FNM this week.

Working on the sideboard, this is where I am at the moment:

[deck]Land:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
4 Swamp

Creature:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Spike Jester
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other:
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard:
4 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Thoughtseize
1 Skullcrack
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Act of Treason[/deck]

I'd gladly replace at least some of the doom blades with something like Olivia was in Dos Rakis before the rotation. Reckoner would be a boss here, but is RRR too tough to cough up on time? Swamps could turn into Godless Shrines, but that is probably a route to madness.

Sideboard has following packages
to consider bringing in:
- 2 Dreadbore, 2 Mortars, 4 "Doomblade" against aggro decks
- 1 Hammer, 1 Skullcrack, 2 Thoughtseize against control decks
- 1 Hammer, 3 Act against Desecration Demon decks

Everything except Skullcrack and Hammer can be brought against Gx ramp and midrange decks.

Tips, suggestions and criticism are all welcomed. I wish this variant gets some sweet cards in the next expansion in addition to the BR scy land.

[InflatablePie]

R4: Mono Red - This was funny because I was going into R4 at #1 seed. I said I was going to play and everyone else seemed a bit mad. My opponent gave me the whole "your only making this bad for me, we could draw and youd still be number 1 seed etcc." I had said I came to play magic (don't get to as much as id like due to work and girlfriend) and I was not going to draw. He then proceeded to say we could draw and just play for fun, and I responded with "People play differently when they are doing it for seeding or for fun, I came to play magic." AM I a dick?

Not a dick, no. Being a dick would entail saying something like: "I want to play because I don't want you to make top 8", or having that type of attitude about it.
Your intentions weren't bad.

That said, if the tournament is a cut to top 4/8/16 next round (or the round after) and you can 100% make the cut by drawing, I would draw, on the condition that you guys play the match out anyway. You still make the cut regardless, don't risk losing to a better deck/bad matchup, and your opponent probably makes it in too. Plus you still get to play your match. It's a nice gesture.

From his point of view, both of you want to top 8 and both are undefeated (guessing by you being #1 seed). You can both draw in to top 8 to lock in slots and retain seeding (unless other matches fail to draw in which case 4-0 > 3-0-1). So why not both draw and guarantee prizes? Then your opponent refuses, thus there being a small chance you don't make top 8 with the 3-1 record if you lose. I can see why he'd be a little ticked.

And in some cases it helps: last Friday, round 5 (out of 6, then cut to top ,
I was undefeated against someone who I knew was Junk, my worst matchup. He offered to draw and I accepted, because it was better than a loss, and played the match out. I lost 1-2. Next match, my opponent refused to draw into top 8, and I won 2-0, taking the top seed; it would have been better if he had accepted the draw.

[LaZerBurn]

@helios - good point, it doesn't, I've edited it accordingly. Thanks for pointing it out

[Helios]

I understand why your opponent was miffed, but wanting to play it out is a totally reasonable thing.

[Purp]

I understand why your opponent was miffed, but wanting to play it out is a totally reasonable thing.

Yeah. I had two reasonings A) I don't really like to play magic unless its for the sake of the round at the tournament. I'm not really into the whole lets play for fun in between rounds thing. That's what playtesting before is for.

B) I wasn't trying to wait 50 minutes for my next match ha!

But seriosuly... Mono U.

[Aodh]

I haven't been able to play against any mono U decks yet, and I'm sure this has been suggested, but why not Electrickery in the SB? A 4-mana 2/1 isn't scary, but a bunch of 2/1 value tokens is. Plus, you can sometimes live the dream of running Chandra into a 2/3 flier and get it along with the tokens... Not sure why the match-up is so bad, but like I said I just haven't played it.

[Zooligan]

MUD - hate to say it, but how about Demolishing that Nykthos (and maybe a Bident sometime)?

[photodyer]

For sake of anyone who doesn't frequent the FoS clan thread, y'all are in a well-deserved spotlight. Josh Silvestri in this article recognizes the unique power of Pyromancer Red and gives zemanjaski much-overdue props as an innovator in the wielding of fire.

To Helios and the rest of you who have taken up and championed the archetype, WELL DONE!!

[Helios]

Nykthos isn't a big enough problem to play an atrocious card. If they're getting significant value off of Nykthos, you're losing anyway.

Thanks photo.