[Primer] RDW

[Valdarith]

I played it a bit last night, beating mono green, GW, and Grixis as far as my midrange matchups were concerned.

Young Peezy is great at making chump blockers. In a couple of my game wins I was able to sit back with the crew while my Phoenix got in overhead. In one particular game I just used them as chump blockers while I got Chandra to ultimate for the win.

Haven't been able to make use of Act of Treason yet, but there were plenty of times I wish I had it.

I'm not sure that Burning Earth is what we want to bring in against three-color midrange decks that like to resolve 2-4 cmc fatties. Our opponent doesn't care about BE when he's resolved a Loxodon Smiter and is going to suit it up with Unflinching Courage next turn.

Speaking of Unflinching Courage, I hate how mono red just automatically folds to the card vs midrange. If we don't have the Mortars to kill an x/4 preemptively or two burn spells with untapped
mana, we're SOL. That's the worst feeling to me and borderline inexcusable. Really makes you want to splash black for Dreadbore, Doom Blade, and Thoughtseize.

[zemanjaski]

I think just Boros actually. Why?
- scrylands are very good (strict upgrade over guildgates)
- chained to the rocks is 1 mana terminate, which is great when you're trying to tempo someone out
- Boros charm out of the board vs. control? yes please

You lose Reckoner if you go Rakdos, and right now I think Reckoner is just an amazing sideboard card.

[windstrider]

If GW becomes a problem, then splashing white for Glare of Heresy looks good as well, especially since it can get rid of a lot of problem cards in that matchup.

[Zooligan]

I think just Boros actually.

Who's got the Boros builds going on? Seen the BIA. Are there mid-range and control builds happening as well?

[zemanjaski]

There's Boros midrange that Yarpus and Sasky are working on.

[Platypus]

Ok, here's something to discuss. Best Chandra-less red-based deck? Everybody here know what a powerhouse she is, but let's face it: Not everybody can/want to spend that amount of money on singles. I know I won't, mostly due to limited play opportunities. It's just not worth it.

So, what deck suffer the least from not having Chandra, Pyromaster? Devotion Red (DR) or PyroRed? To me it seems obvious that DR suffer less than PyroRed. DR is less subtle and more of a play dudes and just get that damage through somehow, either by playing hasty, flying, or "reckoning" dudes. PyroRed really needs the +1 falter effect from Chandra to be able to get enough damage through due to the smaller creatures.

Am I right in this analysis?

[Valdarith]

That's correct. You just can't run PyroRed without Chandra.

I think your best bet is an AIR list like Zem posted.

[Helios]

Devotion also seems fine sans-Chandra.

[windstrider]

Chandra's very much a linchpin for PyroRed.

[Elricity]

I think just Boros actually.

Who's got the Boros builds going on? Seen the BIA. Are there mid-range and control builds happening as well?

Mine's pretty much a control build that I tweaked after seeing all the midrange in states this weekend. My control game 1 is already good enough so MD reckoner feels the right call to me.

[deck]

//Creature (12)
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

//Pyro Spells (18)
2 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Warleader's Helix

//Non-pyro spells
(6)
2 Pyromancer's Gauntlet
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Hammer of Purphoros

//Land (24)
1 Boros Guildgate
10 Mountain
3 Mutavault
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
4 Chained to the Rocks
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Renounce the Guilds
3 Skullcrack
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

I probably want wear // tear to be another mortars but I don't like having any answer at all to pithing needle or Whip. Without the one drops to beat them down earlier, act of treason ends up being far less good so I pulled it.

[Platypus]

That's correct. You just can't run PyroRed without Chandra.

I think your best bet is an AIR list like Zem posted.

Yeah, I saw that one and it looks playable and great as a cheap starting option (although you probably want Reckoners in the SB). But I've been getting a bit disillusioned with AiR builds lately, they're just too "all in", obviously. Devotion Red seems to have a bit more stamina.

[Elricity]

Other than reckoner, which some of the devotion players are arguing against anyway, the rest of the devotion deck is fairly cheap and should be able to be built on 50-60 USD.

[DarthStabber]

Depends on your opinion of mutavault. I've seen versions with none, I've seen no vaults, i've seen 4 vaults. My personal thought is 2 is correct with reckoner in the sideboard, 1 if he's maindeck. With out the vaults my total investment haas been $25, but I already had the reckoners, mortars, and zealots. I traded $30 worth of stuff for vaults, so $55. I got mortars and zealots for ~$2.50 each, ~$20 back when rtr came out so we come to $75. I traded for reckoners, but I don't remember exactly how much I traded for them, but it was all draft winnings. Lets say they were $15 each, $60 for the set. Added together it comes $135, but keep in mind that if were starting from zero I would not have bought some of this stuff, and most of it was from trades/limited prizes.

[Wrathberry2]

You lose Reckoner if you go Rakdos, and right now I think Reckoner is just an amazing sideboard card.

thats not true to be honest.

didnt we all play reckoners in our dos rakis lists last season? just add some b/w shocks and you are fine again to play reckoners.

but i still dont see any real advantage to play rakdos currently besides shred freak. i wish we still would have my beloved koi -.-. i really wish i would have him now vs all these g/w lists .

mb boros is the way to go for charm and whatever else^^


@mutavault: i really think its a must play especialy if you dont play reckoners. its so freaking good, especialy for battalion and vs control. but
even with 4 reckoners in the sb i currently play 4 mutavaults and i never wished that i dont have them actualy.
they are just awesome.

[Helios]

didnt we all play reckoners in our dos rakis lists last season? just add some b/w shocks and you are fine again to play reckoners.

but i still dont see any real advantage to play rakdos currently besides shred freak. i wish we still would have my beloved koi -.-. i really wish i would have him now vs all these g/w lists .

The mana is significantly worse than last season. Also, why can't red decks play shred freak? He's so very hybrid.

[Wrathberry2]

didnt we all play reckoners in our dos rakis lists last season? just add some b/w shocks and you are fine again to play reckoners.

but i still dont see any real advantage to play rakdos currently besides shred freak. i wish we still would have my beloved koi -.-. i really wish i would have him now vs all these g/w lists .

The mana is significantly worse than last season. Also, why can't red decks play shred freak? He's so very hybrid.

they can. knight of infamy was just soooo good -.- i want him
back and i instantly would switch to rakdos again.

[Yarpus]

What's the general opinion about this fellow?

[Khaospawn]

Bad.

[Elricity]

Warleader's helix is better. It's a shame because I did like him but Silverblade last season made it more amusing. Even then I cut it.

[Wrathberry2]

i kinda like him, just because i loved blistering firecat in the onslaught block back in the days. but still i think he is not good enough probably.

[Yarpus]

Actually yeah, wow.
Warleader's Helix is just better than this guy like all day. 2-damage for aeons of flexxibility and inevitability.
Wow.

[Wrathberry2]

im actualy playing this list i nearly copied from redthirst, just changed the sideboard a little bit, so it fits me more. im very happy about the deck currently. the last 3 days i lost soo many games vs midrange, it was ridiculous. with my old devotion and ultra fast builds.
but since i changed it to that, i just can beat anything. sure some midrange matchups are still tough, but i just won 6:4 in 3 best of 3 matches vs DEGA midrange, which in my oppinion was the by far hardest matchup with sligh and devotion style decks and nearly impossible to beat.

control is still easy, since its still fast enough to just beat the crap out of them. and the 3 chandra's do the rest.

other aggro matches are still good, since you are still pretty fast and after sideboarding you are basicly midrange, with 4 reckoners, 4 mortars and stuff like that.

[deck]
Artifact:
2 Hammer of Purphoros

Creatures:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4
Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells:
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Planeswalker:
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands:
20 Mountain
4 Mutavault

Sideboard:
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
3 burning Earth
3 Act of Treason
4 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

like i said above it just works awesome. the dragons are just so good, and give you so much more reach. first i was not sure if i want to buy them, and when i bought 2 more of them in paper magic, i firstly was not 100% happy with it. but now, after i playtested them some more, im more than happy that i bought them, and im currently thinking if i want to buy a fourth one, but actualy i never played more than 3 hellkites, so i dont think i will ever play 4 dragons.

the purphoros in board is basicly just for the g/w matchup, because anything else plays too much removal to ever activate him. but i think vs g/w which basicly never kills a creauture of you if you dont
want them to do, he can be pretty hard to handle for them ;D.

anything else is pretty selfexplanatory i guess.

[Helios]

LP is on Traitorous Instinct over Act of Treason in the board, you should give that a shot.

[Wipe Out]

Hi, I've been lurking here for awhile and learned an amazing amount about current meta calls, deck construction, and theory. It has helped me improve exponentially as a player and have a lot of fun in the process. Re: Wrathberry's/Redthirst's decklist up above, I've been wondering what people think about a Big Red (or Big Boros) set up? Are PyroRed and Red Devotion better positioned at the moment or is Big Red a competitive list to pilot and invest in?

I've been trying out both PyroRed and Devotion, with a decent amount of success. Big Red had some success before rotation, though we have now lost Hellrider and Hellkite, and it seems like it could be viable and a blast to play as well. Or is it sacrificing too much speed for bigger creatures and suboptimal build compared to other midrange options?

[Wrathberry2]

@helios: i totaly forgot about traitorous instinct, ill think about that and give it a try i guess. thanks for the hint!.

@wipe out: if you see my deck, its kinda goes in the direction of a big red build. its still more a RDW, because it plays 8 1-drops, but if you just cut the 1-drops and fill it with another 4 drop like ember swallower and some more burns, you already got your big red build and i think that will work pretty well too.
just could be a little slow vs control sometimes, but to be honest: you still got chandra, dragon and hammer which should dominate control even without 1-drops.

cant say much about big boros, but with that you would have a worthy 6-drop with elsepth, even if im not really sure if elspeth is that good in non-control decks. but you also have access to helix, boros charm and so on.

i for myself will try to play my deck borosstyle soon.

[Yarpus]

I think most of decklists we do play are not Red enough guys.
I'd love to play something very, very Red.

[Wrathberry2]

what do you mean with very red? suicide-tibalt.dec? :DD

[Yarpus]

Every deck with Tibalt was kind of suicide.

Something super-aggresive. Something that puts pressure not tokens. Something that generates damage not board state to get swept.
Some kind of balls-to-the-wall RDW which is not an all-in, but has lategame option.

[Wipe Out]

@wrathberry: After seeing your and Redthirst's build it got me wondering if people had been testing Bigger-style Red. I like having the Dragons on the curve and think I will try that decklist out, but I'm trying to figure if I should go all the way and take out some/all 1-drops and put in Ember Swallower, Reckoners, and maybe Anger of the Gods. I have run into a couple Big Boros decks while playing Devotion Red and I was able to get under them pretty fast, so I don't know if people have had success or not with the Bigger lists (or if my LGS competition aren't sideboarding properly for RDW matchups). If Big Boros is viable, then I need to start aiming to get some Elspeths.

@Yarpus: merging your two descriptors: "balls-to-the-wall" and the established "all-in-red," when this decklist arrives I propose it is named "Balls-in Red."

[amcfvieira]

Yesterday I had a rough time playing against UW tapout. Much early blockers and Thassa with devotion very early. It made me so many times, turn 2 Frostburn Weird, turn 3 Thassa, Turn 4 Jace, and it block complete my game with pyro list. Weird blocks everything and when Jace comes out Thassa become a 5/5 that made me stop attacking. Turn 6 Elspeth and game lose.

GW seems thought with but a good start can make the difference. Maybe Devotion deck can kill a Loxodon with the courage, extend your board and then cast your fanatic. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think that I can find at least 3 types of red deck this days (AIR, Devotion, Pyro). If we want to splash so colour to improve our post sideboard game, or made it more adapt to the deck we go to battle, I thinking that the colour can be this AIR - Green, Devotion - White, Pyro - Black.
My thought is AIR run Burning three Emissary and can get use of that, I think there is a spider
we can launch with BTE with deathtouch and reach that cost that can block any creature with the courage on that or we can get the Destructive Revelry. Devotion already run Boros Reckonner main and makes sense run white. Chained to the Rocks can be run. Purphoros and Assemble the Legion can change it to a midrange/control deck.
Pyro can splash Black to made use of some very powerful spells like Thoughtseize, Duress and removal spell that can give it a more control of the game.
I don't know if in this days we can get a mana base consistent to support any of this splashes.

I will continue to play mono red, today I finally got the Firedinkers and the Fanatics on MTGO. So now I can finally play/test with this decks complete. Next step get Purphoros and Dragons.

[DarthStabber]

@Yarpus: merging your two descriptors: "balls-to-the-wall" and the established "all-in-red," when this decklist arrives I propose it is named "Balls-in Red."

If I am playing a "balls-to-the-wall" version of red devotion, does that make my deck "balls devotion"?

[Jack]

Devotion to balls?

[DarthStabber]

Devotion to balls?

WINNER!!!

[warwizard87]

Devotion to balls?

WEINER!!!

fixed

[DarthStabber]

Of course, we made a flurry of testicle jokes, and this is the forum for dick jokes. How silly of me.

[Yarpus]

[deck]4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix

4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Hammer of Purphoros

19 Mountain
2 Mutavault[/deck]

Balls-to-the-wall Red anyone?

[warwizard87]

dear god. vs the g/w deck I just won with 26 elemental tokens in play vs it, 3 YP is redic.

[LaZerBurn]

Somehow amidst all that talk of balls I missed Wrathberry's decklist! I'm running a very similar list myself and really enjoying playing it - I don't like AIR strategies personally (unless that is the only viable option for a Red build ) and wasn't very happy with Red Devotion either. I love Z's PyroRed but was struggling to get much value from YP and losing to a sea of mid range and White decks so I put in the Dragons and it's working well so far

I should note that I'm playing exclusively on MTGO and haven't had time to hit the dailies as yet so my comments are based on what I'm seeing in the 2 man queues which is mainly mid-range and Red. I've only seen 1, yes 1,
Control deck so far, which is a shame as I think this is any Red decks easiest match up

Anyway, here's the list
[deck]Land

21 Mountain
4 Mutavault

Creatures

4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Ass 'n' Thighs
3 Chandra, best card in Standard

Spells
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Flames Of The Firebrand

Artifacts
1 Hammer Of Purphoros

S/B
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Traitorous Instinct
3 Skullcrack
1 Hammer Of Purphoros
[/deck]

Boarding is pretty self explanatory and basically the same strategy as every other build is using -
Vs Aggro - 8 1 drops, + 4 Reckoners, 4 Mortars
Vs
MidRange As Aggro with Traitorous Instinct coming in as necessary for some combination of the Hammer and FotF. I will generally leave out the Reckoners if they have Black removal.
Vs Control - 3 FotF, 1 Lightning Strike + 3 Skullcrack, 1 Hammer

21 Mountains isn't always the best for T3 Reckoner but with 15 burn spells post board that's not generally a problem

If U Devotion becomes huge in the metagame Electrickery looks pretty strong against all their tokens, though Mortars is still king against Weird

Comments, praise and abuse are all welcome

[Yarpus]

I have to admit that I dislike both Devotion and PyroRed. They are both... not RDW. They are decks that try to fulfill some kind of strategy niche', not just win. I want to be the best like nobody ever was - which is why I'm focusing on RDW instead of those builds.
Mogis is good, right? Then play Mogis.
Shock is good, right? Then play Shock.
Chandra is good, right? Then play Chandra.
Phoenix is good, right? Then play fucking Phoenix.

[deck]Creatures:
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Other Spells:
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Planeswalkers:
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands:
2 Mutavault
20 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Skullcrack
3 Peak Eruption[/deck]

[Wrathberry2]

what exactly is the big difference to devotion red?