Grixis Control

[Nuwen]

Hi.

The control archetype is currently dominated by Sphinx's Revelation (for good reason, too). I'd like to open discussion about control shells without Sphinx's, particularly in B/U/R colors. A chosen few control players refuse to run a Sphinx-inclusive shell, either on principal or for the experimental whoopee - this thread is for you.

First, I'd like to introduce my attempt to build Grixis-style control.

Grixis Rising
"There was an iciness, a sinking, a sickening of the heart."

[deck]Artifact
2 Rakdos Keyrune

Creatures
3 Frostburn Weird
2 Olivia Voldaren
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Enchantment
2 Demonic Rising

Instant
3 Dissipate
3 Izzet Charm
3 Magmaquake
2 Syncopate
2 Undying Evil

Sorcery
2 Duress
2 Rakdos's
Return
2 Dreadbore
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Sever the Bloodline

24 Land
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfer Falls
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dragogenius
1 Frostburn Weird
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Evil Twin
2 Cremate
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Appetite for Brains
1 Underworld Connections
2 Tragic Slip
2 Slaughter Games

Dragon's Maze Drooling
Far // Away
Turn // Burn
Master of Cruelties ??[/deck]

The Core

• Demonic Rising: This is a win con engine that works very well with keyrunes. Ramping into this after a T2 drop is incredibly hard to deal with. Especially since Keyrune can be activated to keep the demons coming after a sorcery speed board wipe. Thundermaw Hellkite / Niv-Mizzet Dracogenius are also considerations for this win condition slot.
• Undying Evil: They try to
  kill us, but we just come back stronger. Vampire Nighthawk becomes incredibly efficient with two lives, and he'll often dominate the board as a 3/4. Increases the pump threshold of Frostburn Weird. Protects game-winning threats like Olivia, Seer (play at 5 mana safely) from just about all removal in the format. 1-1 answer to Supreme Verdict.
• Magmaquake: "Where will you run when I punish you with the vary ground you flee on?" - Nicol Bolas
  
  Magmaquake trumps other boardwipes in my shell because it can be played at instant speed, is scale-able, and damages planeswalkers. The weakness of this card is that it doesn't hit flyers, which becomes a positive feature with my alpha flyers. I will always dominate the sky. This card's potential to 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, etc. is my deck's primary means of card advantage. Against decks where creature wipe does not equal advantage, hand destruction becomes core.
  
  [*:
  4p1057le]Rakdos' Return: Aggressive card advantage.
• Counter-magic: This is why we're playing blue and NOT Jund or any other archetype. Syncopate & Dissipate are my choices in the shell because they're most relevant against flashback/re-animator. Izzet Charm is a valuable toolbox and at least 2/3 modes are relevant in any given matchup (if not all 3).
• Filter/Card Specific Advantage: With access to filter like Izzet Charm and Desolate Lighthouse, you can discard redundant effects and pilot through flooding/mana screw. Forbidden Alchemy is a good that these colors have access to as well. Underworld Connections is also a good tool for this.
• Rakdos Keyrune: Toolbox. Ramp is difficult to find in these colors, first-strike kills */3 (Thragtusk), dodges sorcery speed removal and board wipes, flexible with Homicidal
  Seclusion.
• Augur of Bolas is missing from your core, why Frostburn Weird?: Augur is sometimes card advantage in my deck. Frostburn Weird is less variance and more potential for aggression/punishment against greedy keeps. I think Augur is a much better card with Runechanter's pike.

[Nuwen]

I'm still pretty new to Magic, so I'd appreciate critiques of my logic and approach to this archetype.

[redthirst]

I'd still consider running Augur over Frostburn. With 20+ relevant spells for its ability, you won't be wiffing too often, and by the time you're ready to go on the offensive, you'll most likely have a better tool for that job than a 4/1 with no evasion.

I'd also drop Seclusion which is regularly going to have little-to-no impact on a game and Undying Evil, which is just not worth the card slots.

That's what I'd change just off the top of my head... I'll play around with the list a little and give you some better notes later.

[Platypus]

If you want an alternative to Homicidal Seclusion, consider Demonic Rising (mental note: that's a card I have to try as well). I agree about Undying Evil, not worth the card slot.

[Link]

Demonic Rising seems good. You're right about Seclusion, it often didn't have enough impact and it is obviously bad in a vacuum.

Demonic Rising might be the engine this deck needs to get a formidable board state (2 demons if you have a keyrune make the first one is no joke).

I have to say I think you guys are just wrong about Undying Evil, having playtested against this deck more than 100 games with Junk Rites, UWr, Esper, all forms of Aggro, etc.

Being able to protect olivia when she first comes down by playing her with 1 open black is insane. Even if the surprise factor is gone (they know youre running undying evils) its hard to play around since no one runs Annihilating fire for exile. Its bad against Sever, but a lot of things are bad against that card. Supreme verdicts spears and mortars are much more common.


Augur vs. Weird

Augur is great with undying evil so its funny you suggest one but knock on the
other. He can give you two cards for CA and be a bigger blcoker with undying evil.

BUT

Against control, without pike, he is useless. Completely useless. "When you're ready to go on the offensive" that needs to be ALL the time with control Being able to kill augurs in the way, and then swing for 4 damage a turn with ONE card is good. I played a lot of esper games against nuwen. Being forced to Azo charm a weird felt dirty, but I had to. When she was running augurs.... well I just kinda laughed and sat there cycling with azo charm and think twice for CA. Swinging for 4 >>> swinging for 1+ getting an extra card.


Against aggro the /4 body and the ability to flat out kill ash zealots that swing in makes it much better than augur in that match-up too. With undying evil it turns into a frickin rhox faithmender wall that can also pump to a 6/1 monster if needed.


Homicidal has to go, we agree, but Undying Evil is just really good when tis good and its not often that its bad. When
its bad its in those games that you were losing anyway and even if it was an Unsummon it wouldn't make that much of a difference (the only other contender in these colors for that slot, unsummon is more flexible sure but it also loses you tempo if you have to use it to save your creature.)

[Link]

I also don't know if Duskmantle seer is worth it. We tried to make him work by forcing in homicidal seclusion for lifelink to offset it, because without lifelink you kill yourself often since you DO run a bunch of 4 and 5 cmc in this deck.


Since that slot is open, there's room for more removal. Maybe Sever the bloodline to deal with Junk rites decks?

[redthirst]

With only 10 creatures in the deck, Evil has a lot of opportunities to be a blank card.

That's my issue with it.

I don't like cards that have the opportunity to be blank unless it's because I'm winning. Like cards that don't do anything because my opponent doesn't have a creature are okay - that usually means I'm in a good position. Cards that don't do anything because I don't have a creature are bad - that usually means that I'm in a bad position and I need spells that will get me out of it, not sit dead in my hand.

[Link]

you can also undying evil keyrunes, which already are hard to deal with, but I see your point and its valid.

I mean its like black's ranger's guile which doesn't often see play for probably the same reasons. And there are times where it has been dead or made for awkward draws, but the filter engines in the deck (lighthouse and izzet charm) are there to make sure you have a creature and not redundant things, so this deck can deal with dead cards. I guess its just a "pet" card that we may overlook when its bad because of what it does when you do have a creature and they try to remove it.


I am looking forward to your feedback after trying this out and seeing what would fit better in this place though, red.

Edit: I forgot to mention Undying evil with evil twin is pretty sweet. Black flicker is the way I look at it sometimes.

[Link]

Cut Undying Evil down to 2 copies, bumped up a mainboard dreadbore.

Sever the bloodline is doing some good work already vs. Junk rites.

Only seen Demonic rising once but definitely was more threatening than Seclusion. Made her board impossible to deal with, whereas before she just folded to Liliana -2 every game I saw her

We've also realized this deck's nut draw:

T1+pillar their dork, or do nothing w/e
T2 Weird
T3 Keyrune
T4 Demonic Rising making a Demon OR Olivia with undying evil protection.

feels a lot more streamlined.

[Platypus]

My main issue with Undying Evil is basically the same as Redthirst's. But I have to admit I've neither played with the card nor against it, so is quite possible I'm wrong about it.

[redthirst]

It's like having another (slightly better) copy of a creature you have in play - the drawbacks are that it's worthless if the opponent doesn't kill your creature (which I could live with) or you don't already have a creature in play.

Personally, I'd rather just play 3 more creatures...

[Link]

Well we did cut down 2 copies based on the issues you guys have, but please do give it a try. "Undying" nighthawks can kill resto angels and aurelia all day long, evil twin interaction is good, protecting olivia, augur ETB effect, Snapcaster ETB (if youre playing the UBx tempo version), trumps abrupt decays and supreme verdicts and bonfires.

It may not be good on its own or look appealing, but in the current meta I think its pretty relevant (sorta like our version of Alex's "Midnight haunting" that looks underwhelming but works really well with the deck).


Ninja: You can't play more olivais, shes' legendary. But saving her from removal is nuts. You play dos rakis with olivia in the SB right Red? You know how quickly she can take over a game and win. Protecting her alone is worth the card IMO, the rest is just icing.

[rcwraspy]

is Olivia a card you pretty much always want to see? Because with 2x her and 2x Undying Evil, you're likely to see 1 of those 4 cards. What good is an Undying Evil if you're not drawing the creature you want. Decks that NEED to see a certain legendary either have a crap ton of card draw/filter/loot or (sometimes and) run 4x the legendary. If she's such a target that you want to save her with Undying Evil then drawing a 2nd copy won't be a hindrance.

[redthirst]

She definitely just lands and wins some games, but keep in mind two things:

1. You'd only have to leave one more mana up to protect her from the most common removal spell people play that can actually target her (Spear) without investing another card, and
2. If you use Olivia's ability once, you can't save her with Evil.

I think I'd just drop them and try to run this creature suite:

4 Augur of Bolas
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Niv-Mizzet

[Link]

the difference between being able to play olivia on turn 4 and turn 5 safely is pretty huge. Also her ping ability won't save her from mortars, supreme verdicts, etc.


Niv-Mizzet is interesting. Honestly another card I realized would be great in this deck but we don't have is Thundermaw Hellkite. Will try both

Lingering souls is very hard for this deck to play against sometimes, because it can overwhelm and with vault of the archangel they can't be raced with nighthawks or demons. Counterspelling it is meh because there are better dissipate targets usually. Thundermaw comes down and kills them all and is another win condition. I would drop the Demonic risings for Hellkites if I had all cards to work with.

Thundermaw would also reping those souls with undying evil /lawlz

[Link]

is Olivia a card you pretty much always want to see? Because with 2x her and 2x Undying Evil, you're likely to see 1 of those 4 cards. What good is an Undying Evil if you're not drawing the creature you want. Decks that NEED to see a certain legendary either have a crap ton of card draw/filter/loot or (sometimes and) run 4x the legendary. If she's such a target that you want to save her with Undying Evil then drawing a 2nd copy won't be a hindrance.

yeah its christmasland, which is why 3x undying evils were being run at first.

Undying evil is going to be good with any of the creatures though, not just olivia.

Hmmm thinking about forbidden alchemy again, to help get components and win cons alltogether.

[Nuwen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/stan ... iness.html
[deck]
Creatures (12)

3 Augur of Bolas
4 Duskmantle Seer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Olivia Voldaren
Lands (24)

1 Island
3 Blood Crypt
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Watery Grave
Spells (24)

1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Izzet Charm
3 Searing Spear
2 Syncopate
2 Think Twice
2 Thought Scour
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Unsummon
2 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
Sideboard

2 Evil Twin
3 Izzet Staticaster
2 Negate
1 Ultimate Price
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
1 Slaughter Games[/deck]

Fabio Grixis, anyone? This deck is virtually identical to a
shell I built & playtested sans Snapcaster. I dumped the shell because it NEEDED snapcasters to provide both variety/efficiency per card slot. My shell ran 4x removal instead, which is lackluster and subject to a lot more variance. Duskmantle Seer is a great wincon against value, staticasters are cool, and the symphony of hand destruction between rakdos' return / slaughter games / appetite / duress is one of my staples.

[Valdarith]

It's a great deck for sure. All I can really say is GET THOSE SNAPCASTERS! I know that's easy for me to say and it can be hard for someone dedicated to a budget, but it really makes all the difference in this archetype. Of course you already knew that, so the question is, how do you make something almost as competitive? I think your deck is on the right track, but echo the sentiments of the others regarding Undying Evil. It'd be okay if you were running more creatures but you would be a lot better off running something like Desperate Ravings or Think Twice to dig for your spells and gain card advantage over time which is what all control decks love to do.

[Alex]

I'm hijacking this thread to discuss Gerard Fabiano's Grixis list.




[deck]Creatures (12)
3 Augur of Bolas
4 Duskmantle Seer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Olivia Voldaren

Spells (24)
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Izzet Charm
3 Searing Spear
2 Syncopate
2 Think Twice
2 Thought Scour
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Unsummon
2 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return

Lands (24)
1 Island
3 Blood Crypt
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard (15)
2 Evil Twin
3 Izzet Staticaster
2 Negate
1 Ultimate Price
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
1 Slaughter Games[/deck]

We had a lot of discussion in the Fires of Salvation thread about the deck, Zemanjaski seems particularly interested in the list, but he never posted his "
updated" version. We both figured the weakest cards in the list were Cyclonic Rift and Mizzium Mortars were weak cards in the list. I was thinking Sever the Bloodline might just be better. Zeman thinks more Izzet Charms. Both are probably fine.

[Link]

That list looks really familiar because Nuwen already hijacked her own thread to talk about it...

<______<?

[Alex]

That list looks really familiar because Nuwen already hijacked her own thread to talk about it...

<______<?

I only read as far as "Undying Evil" before I stopped caring what the rest of the thread said.

[Nuwen]

Sup Alex, where did undying evil fall short in your play tests?

[Alex]

When I realized that I could more aptly protect my key creatures from removal by playing counter magic instead. Additionally, Undying Evil is a total blank when you don't have a creature at all. Izzet Charm, however, is not.

I played Undying Evil a LOT in Scars/Innistrad Standard, it was integral in my mono black infect list back then because you needed to protect your Inkmoth Nexus' and Phyrexian Crusaders to be able to win (since the deck was mostly Crusader, Lashwrithe and Inkmoth as the only win conditions, and completely surrounded by hand disruption and removal.) but this is a different deck that doesn't need to do that.

[Link]

have you tried it since supreme verdict printed? counter magic doesn't do much there. If you haven't tested it since then, try again.

it works with ETB evil twin and augur. think of it as black flicker

[Alex]

have you tried it since supreme verdict printed? counter magic doesn't do much there. If you haven't tested it since then, try again.

it works with ETB evil twin and augur. think of it as black flicker

Supreme Verdict isn't really something you can't address by playing more discard spells. Playing a card that interacts with the lesser half of your deck doesn't seem wise at all.

[Link]

its weaker in Fabianos list with less creatures, I'll give you that. duress isbetter

lets just focus on the new list and perfecting it now. done with that card

[Alex]

its weaker in Fabianos list with less creatures, I'll give you that. duress isbetter

lets just focus on the new list and perfecting it now. done with that card

To speak generally, then, is Supreme Verdict a card worth worrying about in control vs. control matchups? 66% of the potential games you can play against control will have them boarding out Supreme Verdict anyway. My guess is probably "who cares about uncounterable board wipes?"

The Izzet Charms seem so good here that it is unbelievable though. I'm shocked that he isn't playing more of them, especially in a format where [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card] can get
seriously hosed by having a random Mana Leak. Is it better than Negate? No, but it is the more versatile card overall. The looting ability is not irrelevant, and there's some pretty annoying things that have 2 toughness that you can blast sometimes. (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben immediately comes to mind.)

[LP, of the Fires]

Gonna say that I had the same impression about cyclonic rift, but then I bothered playing with the card. In theory it seems weak, but in practice it's earned it's slot. In a deck like this, you actually do flood sometimes since your playing so many cantrip type affects and having the mana dump type spells that have big splashy impacts on the game like mortars, RR and Rift lets you convert that flood into advantage. I will say that bonfire seems amazing in this deck and I do want to try squeezing one in somewhere. Izzet charm on the other hand is fine as a one-of but I doubt I'd ever want a second. It's not a card I'm every actively looking to draw, but I don't mind it when since you can usually find a use for all the abilities with snapcaster turning the looting into a net-zero or actual card advantage if you pitch a think twice or ravings.

[zemanjaski]

Cyclonic Rift should just be Devil's Play...think about how much better that is in this deck.

[LP, of the Fires]

I want to agree...but then I eot Overloaded rift into Rakdos Return you hand/board. Results oriented I know, but it was SOOOOO sweet. That and rift is an instant.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, but most of the time is still an overpriced unsummon, and even unsummon isn't that good (even when this is a deck that can really abuse it!). I think the singleton Mortars and the singleton Cyclonic Rift were the worst cards in the deck from my testing ~ MJ mentioned another approach would be to cut the Dusmantle Seers for PWs...probably better when you have Ral available of course.

[LP, of the Fires]

I actually really like unsummon in this deck as it's just so clutch against lots of aggressive draws. That and I guess I just like unsummon a lot. Anything that makes my snapcaster mages more broken is something I'll actively enjoy playing.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, I like the two unsummons a lot, just not the cyclonic rift.

Dimir Charm seems like a nice singleton. Might want a singleton Pillar of Flame? The deck sees SO MANY CARDS that having lots of similar but slightly different cards seems really nice with Snapcaster and Augur...it is possible that Duskmantle Seer maybe should be 1-2 extra Olivia and some PWs or some other CA engine ~ it just rots in your hand against aggro decks too often in my limited experience.

[zemanjaski]

Also, having access to a singleton Sever and/or Tragic Slip seems good in the current meta.

[zemanjaski]

Also, Victim of Night.

Yeah, I like singletons in decks with this much selection.

[Alex]

Sever is a really good card on its own, but becomes better when you can sweep away like 2 Reckoners.

[Link]

Yeah, I like the two unsummons a lot, just not the cyclonic rift.

Dimir Charm seems like a nice singleton. Might want a singleton Pillar of Flame? The deck sees SO MANY CARDS that having lots of similar but slightly different cards seems really nice with Snapcaster and Augur...it is possible that Duskmantle Seer maybe should be 1-2 extra Olivia and some PWs or some other CA engine ~ it just rots in your hand against aggro decks too often in my limited experience.

running a 2/2 split with duskmantles MB and SB worked for us well, so it wasn't 2+ dead cards against aggro usually only 1. And hell sometimes you could land him and race aggro if you had cleared their board enough. A 2/1 split MB/SB with an extra olivia also seems viable.

nYou like singletons but not the single rift? Idk it just seems like a good toolbox to have. But I suppose there are better and its the weakes link.

Pillar of flame is probably more relevant in the current meta. And will be more relevant up until rotation against Voice of Resurgence. I shudder to think what will happen if we don't get a red exile spell in M14 (more relevant to R/x than this deck)

[Alex]

Aren't you already significantly better against aggro if you just go to 4 Augurs? 3 Duskmantle Seers, 4 Augurs seems totally acceptable. Duskmantle isn't great against aggro but it isn't horrid either.

[Link]

I'd be willing to run my variety of R/x decks at you to see how good the match-up is. From what I remember, you can't really afford to play him against aggro if it gives them a spear and loses you 2-4 life. His body does ok to stabilize you but the self-burn puts the game within reach of aggro decks when you otherwise would've stabilized with Olivia or something

[Alex]

Maybe some time this weekend. I've been spending an awful lot of time at the gym, I need to probably take it easy for a few days.