If aggros already favorable, why not hellkite at 5 for better evasion? 5/3 is nice, but no haste and can be blocked by souls for days as opposed to wiping souls... iunno. the online meta is pretty much 80% gruul so you're probably right, I'm just thinking for Hound in the real world scene.
Did you have awkward 1 land 1 KWR hands or have trouble casting reckoner or zealot often?
I think VS has a place somewhere in your list. VS on a hound against jund once youve exhausted them and they land their garruk/thrag or whatever is usually pretty big game. And even if they do remove it after its gotten in once, if you have GCR held back or a KWR for the 3/3 half, you can be pretty sure they are out of removal and go all in?
I didn't have any
awkward hands like that, but it will certainly happen once every 20something games. Not a big deal to me.
I'm not a fan of VS in this list because I prefer to play a control role in red mirrors. That and I don't have a lot of room in the sideboard for it. It would be pretty sweet to slap on a GCR or Hound though.
its less for mirrors (but its still good there) and more for Jund, UWr and any other deck that plays reckoner to stabilize, also nice against that 4-color rites thats been popular around here.
For that reason I cut down to 2 copies (vs. preferred 3-4 in the sligh version) though, but yeah its one of the less necessary cards.
pyrewild and rancors are definitely doing work against the UWr lists from GP Miami
have had a couple games where hounds just come down and had no rancors, gcr, or anything.
I think the weakness with sledgehammer right now is if you dont curve into your late game youre not fast enough early to kill midrange decks before they could going.
pyrewild and rancors are definitely doing work against the UWr lists from GP Miami
have had a couple games where hounds just come down and had no rancors, gcr, or anything.
I think the weakness with sledgehammer right now is if you dont curve into your late game youre not fast enough early to kill midrange decks before they could going.
Leanin real hard on Rancor+Zealot/Hound...
On the contrary. This list performs better than traditional Gruul builds against midrange because it's playing more powerful creatures and KWR. It's the control matchup that suffers due to rubnig a bigger curve but maindeck Hounds help alleviate that shortcoming.
I dont know if its so much archetypes as it is just certain types of powerful cards.
Midrange, Aristocrat UWr and a few others can just close out a game so fast sometimes if they slow your hound tempo. Especially in a rancor'less list like yours, I'm not sure how you fare in games where you can't find a KWr for Hound and are trying to push damage through a Thragtusk/Resto angel or even a reckoner wall.
Hound was really good in topdeck mode, because he closed games out so fast and couldn't be answered with one card. But that usually only happens in mirror matches and jund...
Well those sound like they make up a lot of the format, so I can see it being well suited ionline right now, but I don't know if its fast enough or is powerful enough compared to other midrange. Even the G/r midrange ramps into hellkites and silverhearts very powerfully. It still doesn't get much better than T3 hellrider T4 silverheart to rider.
I'm probably being too hard on it, but I thin it was Ari Lax that made me the most nervous about this list:
- If you are trying to stay low on the curve, you need to be able to close games with evasion or reach and do so quickly. The midrange decks don't mess around and kill you fast on the way back.
This deck has a low curve, but it trades hellrider reach for a situational hound. Situations are: with rancor, empty board topdeck mode, with KWr, with GCR in hand against an opponent with just creatures left.
So it can't close out games that fast. I was getting beaten down by hellkites and resto angels against control, outraced by unflinching aristocrats, etc. And Junk rites, man don't even get me started. Their engines are insane, sligh has a problem killing them through even ONE re-animated thragtusk. Trying to kill them on the ground with hounds? Expect a lot more thragtusks, right up until angel hits. Its brutal.
I think the only viable looking
Sledgehammer build is the Jund Aggro build Kibler tried out, with good removal suite, farseek, and aristo crat as its "hasty evasive 4drop threat" over hound, hellkite at the top, and it also had Strangleroot geists which are pretty killer against sligh still.
As for me until I get B/G lands I'll be bouncing back and forth between Gruul Midrange (yes I'm giving Domri a chance just in a different deck ;P) and R/g Sligh. I want to keep coming back to this version because of rancors, and I'll come back again with Chandra's Phoenix and Chandra herself, but this week iunno if I'm feeling good enough about this list.
I dont know if its so much archetypes as it is just certain types of powerful cards.
Midrange, Aristocrat UWr and a few others can just close out a game so fast sometimes if they slow your hound tempo. Especially in a rancor'less list like yours, I'm not sure how you fare in games where you can't find a KWr for Hound and are trying to push damage through a Thragtusk/Resto angel or even a reckoner wall.
Hound was really good in topdeck mode, because he closed games out so fast and couldn't be answered with one card. But that usually only happens in mirror matches and jund...
Well those sound like they make up a lot of the format, so I can see it being well suited ionline right now, but I don't know if its fast enough or is powerful enough compared to
other midrange. Even the G/r midrange ramps into hellkites and silverhearts very powerfully. It still doesn't get much better than T3 hellrider T4 silverheart to rider.
I'm probably being too hard on it, but I thin it was Ari Lax that made me the most nervous about this list:
- If you are trying to stay low on the curve, you need to be able to close games with evasion or reach and do so quickly. The midrange decks don't mess around and kill you fast on the way back.
This deck has a low curve, but it trades hellrider reach for a situational hound. Situations are: with rancor, empty board topdeck mode, with KWr, with GCR in hand against an opponent with just creatures left.
So it can't close out games that fast. I was getting beaten down by hellkites and resto angels against control, outraced by unflinching aristocrats, etc. And Junk rites, man don't even get me started. Their engines are insane, sligh has a problem killing them through even ONE re-animated
thragtusk. Trying to kill them on the ground with hounds? Expect a lot more thragtusks, right up until angel hits. Its brutal.
I think the only viable looking Sledgehammer build is the Jund Aggro build Kibler tried out, with good removal suite, farseek, and aristo crat as its "hasty evasive 4drop threat" over hound, hellkite at the top, and it also had Strangleroot geists which are pretty killer against sligh still.
As for me until I get B/G lands I'll be bouncing back and forth between Gruul Midrange (yes I'm giving Domri a chance just in a different deck ;P) and R/g Sligh. I want to keep coming back to this version because of rancors, and I'll come back again with Chandra's Phoenix and Chandra herself, but this week iunno if I'm feeling good enough about this list.
Ironically I didn't have too hard a time in my Rites matchup a few nights ago, but the sample size is small.
I certainly am trading speed for resiliency and power. That's the whole point of the deck
vs traditional Gruul builds.
Also, don't underestimate Hound on his own. I have won a ton of games simply by resolving him because of his innate card advantage. He's very difficult to deal with and impossible to deal with profitably. Being able to slam him down and simply not care about Verdict is oh so sweet.
Also, you haven't lived until you've double bloodrushed him with GCR.
I have had experience with Rites when I was running the old version of my deck (that had hellriders main and hounds in the side with rancor suite), and I still have nightmares about the lifegain life gain life gain-> AoS.
Hounds aren't hard to deal with with Thragtusk recursion and resto angels. They can easily double block him most times and if youd ont have pump its just mehhhhhhhh.
He's innate card advantage vs. some decks, and even then, snapcaster+Pillar will ruin his day and pillar is definitely at all time high.
I just think Zeman's mindset of "always try to go under the meta, and very rarely or barely, through the meta." Hound is trying to through the meta and there are just way too many powerful cards out there for him. At least on his own. If I could have KWr out
every game (see: 3 copies and aka no reckoners) with hound I'd say sign me up.
Also, you haven't lived until you've double bloodrushed him with GCR.
Nice I went 4-1 tonight. Did you run stonewrights too. With them I do not miss KWR at all. Best moment of the night, was when I had a hound of griselbrand on the field with two gcr's in hand, pass turn. He plays fifth land and windmill slams assemble the legion onto his empty board and passes with a cocky little smirk. Made my night to swing for the whole 20 in one attack.
Also, you haven't lived until you've double bloodrushed him with GCR.
Nice I went 4-1 tonight. Did you run stonewrights too. With them I do not miss KWR at all. Best moment of the night, was when I had a hound of griselbrand on the field with two gcr's in hand, pass turn. He plays fifth land and windmill slams assemble the legion onto his empty board and passes with a cocky little smirk. Made my night to swing for the whole 20 in one attack.
Just won an eight man after playing Zealous Conscripts to steal a 7/7 Olivia, then used two open mana to ping his mana dork to make her an 8/8 and swing for exactsies.
Just won an eight man after playing Zealous Conscripts to steal a 7/7 Olivia, then used two open mana to ping his mana dork to make her an 8/8 and swing for exactsies.
I never really liked Gyre sage. It made our critical turn MUCH later (t3) thant T2.
With Mystic, we have MORE T2 plays, more T2 BTE into Domri's (my favorite play still), more ramp into Hellkites more ramp into Hellriders.
I really was just getting a little sore about the number of unplayable hands I would get in sligh. Mulling to 4 and winning on the play is pretty satisfying, but with SO MUCH JUND out right now, I don't want to be sitting around trying to jam risky cards into opponents. Iunno, maybe I just want a change of pace and to play Domri because Domri.
BUT:
Why play this over Domri Naya?
Honestly, its hard to tell. You're basically trading amazing white spells:
-Unflinching Courage
-Boros Reckoner
-Resto Angel
-Smiter
for pure speed.
Hellrider, Flinthoof Boar. This deck forgoes the huntmaster plan (but can easily SB them if you want) to just ramp out reliably
hasted threats and dickwhip. You have earlier threats to bloodrush, unlike Naya which can be awkward to have GCR.
[deck]Ragehammer vM.14[/deck]
There are some flex spots to choose from. I was running 2 Borderland Ranger, but I like the idea of a Pyrewild utility creature at 3 also.
I moved KWR to the SB, but its a personal choice. I figure G1s are as fast as possible, and I don't want KWR slowing me down. the split between mortars and bonfire are personal as well. I just hate having openers with bonfire,
hate drawing bonfire on T1, etc. Mortars can be used "Now" against madcap punks, and can be overloaded late relatively easily. And you still can draw into Bonfire for miracles.
Against Jund and shit post board, its 4x Hellkite 24 land time. I really like the Jund MU between awesome threats, ramp to keep up, Domri Rade, and Burning earth out of the board.
Blasphemous Act, Fog, and scavenging ooze. I like these interactions. Normally I'd have pillar of flames in the SB, but I found that when I tried that approach I'd just end up losing to Reckoners or whittled down. I much rather race with Fog and VS now, and even Scavenging Ooze (really lower the curve). Edit: Can't fit fog into the SB yet. I'll do some hexproof testing today to see if it warrants the slots, or if I should just lower the number of hellkites and KWR...
I like the interaction between BAct and Ooze. Burn everything, plenty of Ooze fodder?
Watching the coverage in Richmond yesterday, I saw the deck tech for the
Beast caller hyper ramp deck. He said "this si the best green deck. Better than the G/r midrange or Naya or etc." I'm here to disagree. I'm here to say red still burns.
Honestly mono green seems better. You get to run both elves without worrying about the reliability of Arbor Elf, you have a more consistent mana base, and you're more powerful out of the gate with just as much reach, especially postboard. I hear Saito just posted a mono green build that is very similar to what I was thinking of in my head a few days ago. On my phone so I can't post the list currently.
*sigh* yeah I should just play Naya if I want to Domri. I have half the temple gardens and my friend has the other half. Now to see if I can make scavenging ooze work instead of Voice >_>
Here's Saito's list if anyone's curious:
[deck]MonoG Saito[/deck]
I'd rather have Ranger's guile MB over GGs? Protect rancors and predator oozes better (only out is tragic slip? not if I hexproof it!) That's just me.
Its weird to see a Saito list with a decent mana base >_>
30 creatures for domri. 4 ofs in the SB to ensure consistency, some more fight effects, not messing around with burn removal. Its G/r fight club essentially.
Tusker is AWESOME so far. I like Flinthoot but he wasn't always consistently as good in the 8/6 forest mountain split. Tusker always beats face and with
strangleroot geist youre a lot less soft to aggro than the other list that had shit for early interaction.
Haven't seen many Predator ooze games (except against control, oops), so not sure how impressed to be with it yet.
I should've listened to you ago to just go with a Green base Vala! (though to be fair elvish mystic makes this deck 1000x better)
Leaning heavily on Fog for Bant enchantments, don't want to cram naturalize in there just yet.
Added two scavenging ooze to the main, took out the borderland mountain combo. Made the 4th Domri a Garruk Relentless, seemed logical:
Less chance to get red screwed, since we're splashing red SOLELY for wolf run (implies flood and red source) and occasional T2 Domris. I just don't like Borderland because... well its not as powerful as dropping a scavenging ooze.
I want this deck to be more powerful with a SLIGHTLY riskier mana base. In games where I can't find a
red, the only dead cards are 3 domri and 2 lands. I found this to better than having Borderland Ranger be a weak 2/2 I didn't need OR having a mountain as my 3rd land and not being able to actually CAST any of my stuff!
Plus I playtested against a Junk Rites player last night, I said it was risky him playing junk rites in a scavenging ooze jund meta. He contested that most people have them SB in which case it isnt all that different from rest in peace or w/e. (I argued that it killed him, but w/e)
But he was right, so I considered MB Ooze. I like it. Its like a Green Stonewright with built in GY hate! Its a pretty powerful thing to be doing with your mana, and can be a 2-X drop to bridge gaps. Its bad in multiples usually so I'm going to start with 2 for now.
Update 7/25:
-Streamlined 75 a bit. Went up to 23 land by just adding another Mutavault, cut the 1 Garruk Relentless. Mutavault has impressed me so far, but I think I'm still going to ride the Wolf train
to rotation.
-Cut the Vorapede just to make room for more consistent things
-Cut Ranger's guile from the SB. Between domri and burning earth, I don't need to overload on tech.
-Added Blasphemous Act to SB. Its for the B/W token match-ups. Went to work tonight (Blast acted to clear his blockers/tokens, swing for lethal with still alive ooze. Except he had 2nd tragic slip topdecked that last turn, but it WOULDVE been an awesome play.) I still think this card works well inconjunction with burning earth, especially if there are any 3-color aristocrats still around. Also if you can get them to sac something for pro-green pre-combat you can blowthem out with this board wipe in certain board states. Its also possible bonfire might just be better in all cases? Except when you need to kill a bant hexproof player's board, then it comes in handy. they usually just dump all their crap on the field against an "aggro" deck, so it can be really devastating to hit their Flying Paladins and Geists and
Voice tokens.
-More testing needs to be done with Ulvenwald. I DO like that he comes down t1 and begs to be removed by Mono Red. If he eats a pillar and geist gets to live it can be big game, but not enough experience with him yet.
-Not sure how to board properly with this deck yet. I've been taking out Deadbridge goliath against a lot of decks, and I'm not sure if its correct. He's 10mana to get actual use out of him against any thragtusk deck, and he's pretty slow against tempo decks. I think its the right call to board him out over Tusker (lower mana, can be rancor'd on T2 with T1 elf for nut power draw, etc.)
-Rancor is amazing. I'm waiting for the grindy game where I just have mutavault and rancors in hand to slap on him each turn ;D
7/26:
-Testing some number of Yeva, Nature's Herald in place of Deadbridge. Might give the deck more play against better players, for 1 less P/T. However that P/T is pretty relevant, but its shored up by the fact that between mortars and dreadbore, they
are both SORCERY, so her flash makes her safe from that for 1 turn. You can also flash in a silverheart to pair her in response for blow-outs... Worth testing.
8/3:
-Updated the numbers. Took 1st at FNM going 5-0, write-up is later in the thread. Yeva is definitely much more impressive than Deadbridge, except against Loxodn Smiter decks. Flashing out Silverhearts and Scavenging oozes is big game, who knew?
- Shaved fog from the SB. Didn't want to bring them in against R/g, only hexproof, and even then its not the best if you're taking out your dudes.
-Subbed Blast Act for Bonfire of the Damned. Much better at just clearing out B/W humans etc.'s board states and killing them.
-Added Zealous Conscripts instead of plummet as an answer to fliers. Can't kill em? Steal em. Worried about having too red of a board, might need a 1 of gruul guildgate sadly for the 5 drops in the side and the red.
-Garruk Relentless makes an re-appearnce for more outs against Olivia and just solid removal PW.
8/21:
-
Haven't updated this in awhile, sorry
- Took out 2 arbor elves for a KWR and a Revenge of the hunted. I figure without Archdruid I want to cut back on my elf hands and arbor elf is sometimes raelly bad in a guild gate hand.
-Added Naturalize to the SB over fog for hexproof match-ups. Also gives us game against Naya where Unflinching courage is a real problem.
Last edited by Link on Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:41 pm, edited 8 times in total.
When I started back up with Magic last year the first deck I built was mono green, so the power of a turn two Strangleroot Geist with Rancor was not lost on me.
I'm a huge fan of Scavenging Ooze in the mainboard. You may find three to be more to your liking later on. Just so much reach.
Beat R/g Aggro, bant hexproof, Junk rites (!!), U/W trading post 4/4 angel maker (his deck was actually fucking terrifying, just didn't do shit G2 after a G1 domri ultimate)
Thoughts:
I definitely like the red splash for domri. T2 Domri's steal games against a bunch of fuckin decks, and against other decks its till not that bad (can act as a fog against aggro on critical turn, or future removal)
We played for fun after I 2-0d the U/W guy. Turns out Kessig wolf run is insane late game? Dunno. I'm sure mutavaults would've done just as much.. hell MORE work against him because they would've been a free 2/2 a lot earlier to pressure, whereas wolf run requires a body. Wolf run makes ooze's pretty good topdecks though, and if he didn't haev a 2nd wasteland (he had two fuckin pithing needles and 2 wastelands that game) for my 2nd wolf-run, he would've lost there and
then despite his 4 life 4/4 angel engine.
Might try 1/1 split with mutavault and KWR, mainly because I have only 1 mutavault (2-1 split seems a bit greedy), and its better in earlier turns.
This deck can be INSANELY fast though, like T4 kill fast. That's how I beat the Bant hexproof on the play G3. Took out Domri/Garruk, side in fogs and go to town. I see why Saito has Giant growths main though, between mutavaults and pump I bet the deck gets even FASTER and more resillient. Worth losing the Domri angle and wolf run? Iunno, also liked burning earth out of the side, even if I didnt see it against junk rites.
Exiling a thragtusk in response to unburial rites felt SO DAMN GOOD though. After smashing my head into the table with R/g against that deck for half a year holy shit was that good.
And yes I beat Junk rites through AoS. 1 AoS can be beat for sure. Oh Domri's about the only out against AoS as well anyway
Oh right, I also don't know if I like Vorapede here instead of the 4th Silverheart.
They are awesome when paired, he's awesome alone, aka he's awesome in theory.
Against a bunch of decks though, I just wanted 4 power on the field NOW and 8/8 on defense NOW. Might do a single vorapede in the SB for something? There's definitely a move to two color decks so it might be naturalize over burning earth time... Maybe two naturalizes 1 vorapede instead of burning earth.
But yeah Iwas holding Vorapede back for a couple turns against junk rites, because I had two rancors on the field and he had an AoS, I knew his only out was another AoS so I didn't want to throw down vorapede to get sucked up. If he did hit one, I'd have a 9/4 undying trampler with vigilance though and that's hard to pass up.
Now the list that was MonoG and got 3rd ran 4 of Revenge of the Hunted.
I don't like its inconsistencies.
Also
I think my manabase might support a 2-of.... ARMED AND DANGEROUS BABY.
Considering that as SB tech for those fucking token decks. Protection from Green? Don't give a shit here's a 11/11 double striking trampling mother fucking silver heart that's nto being blocked.
Combined with the fog package I think its got some play in racing match-ups too. The only worry is finding the red but that's always been the risk with this deck. I usually side out 2 domris when in race mode vs. aggro anyway
Flash Scavenging Ooze, block, scavenge, gain life?
Throws off ALL kind of math.
3/3 Split with her Yeva/Ooze MB? or 4/2 (I really like seeing Yeva, and multiples isnt bad because if she isnt dealt with you start flashing in everything else)
I've been testing mono green on MTGO without the M14 stuff and concur about Yeva. She is a house. I'm playing Experiment One in my deck right now and she can create a lot of shenanigans with evolve triggers. I suggest giving it a try right now with all the UWR floating around at the moment.
I was running a budget homebrew since I wasn't aware M14 was legal on MTGO until a white weenie deck slammed a Mutavault on the table. Definitely not an optimized list but I wanted to see how I'd like the archetype and what improvements I'd like to make.
1) I really want some form of removal in the main. Ulvenwald Tracker would be a nice two of. Don't want to splash red for Domri and screw up consistency.
2) Definitely want Predator Ooze.
3) Haven't seen a need for Scavenging Ooze in the main, but it's always nice to have a mana sink foe the late game.
4) Love Yeva. Also love Deadbridge Goliath. Also love Wolfir Silverheart. 8/8 Yeva? Don't mind if I do. Flashing Silverheart in for bond and block? Yeeeeaaaahhh.
Ghor-Clan is pretty greedy on the mana base. I already felt too greedy when I SHOULD have sided in Burning Earthx4 and kept in Domri vs. Jund (instead of siding him out)
Scrubbed out and lost my win and in into a top 8 of a SCG IQ yesterday against Jund. It was due to my own boarding decision.
G3 he Farseeked into T3 Olivia. I had an elf with a rancor, and.... 2 silverhearts in hand.
If those had been 2 domris, BAM pit fight olivia over.
I just wasn't experienced enough to realize how the games played out. Jund doesnt do grindy bullshit and removal post board against us anymore
With Burning Earth they HAVE to play olivia naked and pray, because its the only way they can win through burning earth.
Olivia is the problem and Domri is the answer, even if its greedy as shit to haev 8 red card costs and 8 sources?
I was considering plummet x2 in the side (never ended up needing armed/dangerous. Against Bant
hexproof it would've sealed the game if I saw it though after I fogged him).
More complete write up later.
Goliath is for more grindieness, but I still think he's too slow for the meta. Against UWr I'd definitely prefer him over Yeva though because of Helix
ALTHOUGH flashing in Yeva to sacrifice your other Yeva (new legends rule OP AS SHIT SON) to make helix fizzle is HELLA big game.
Plus I beat the shit out of R/g With some Yeva.
Hell, I fucking flashed ina Yeva to block a non flying GosT with my predator oozes and ALMOST stabilized at 1 hp (he has only a few outs, topdecks Ajani caller of pride. FUCK fliers man)
Vala your list looks like it just plays out a lot different. Lots of Green Flash shenanigans, which probably gives it some great play.
I think I'll stick with the 8 dork version though. The ramp is so important in a lot of games. Also Domri is just everything Ulvenwald WANTED to be and THEN some.
I got 3x mutavault so its possible I'll do the mono green version with mutas and go to town, but I really have no idea how that version is supposed to handle Olivia. Hint: Jund games do NOT go to 7 mana (akromas memorial) against olivia. That might have been due to burning earth pressure,
I do miss the hell out of GCR though. But I still bluff the FUCk out of him because everyone is afraid (swing dorks into GoST and cartel aristocrats all day son).
The list is soft to hexproof and even R/g can be tough (maybe that deck is just too good ;P), but both can be very much shored up. If they next level me and bring in fog post
board, and even get lucky with some VS on a reckoner when I have a mountain out I'd imagine it'd be VERY tough without ulvenwald to eat some burn early. Domri's, Fog, and Yeva are huge game though. No wait, SCAVENGING ooze is huge game against R/g, what the fuck am I saying?
GCR and Scavenging ooze have a pretty beautiful interaction. Discard a creature? Yes pls. NOM. Yeva suprise blocked your hellrider? Next turn FLASH OOZE NOM.
