Dissecting Khaos Deck Wins and How to Play It (Updated)

[Khaospawn]

Was it updated? I last read it when it was still on Sally.

[Link]

to be honest I'd cut loyalists for flunkies. LM helps keep them online, and you can do great shenanigans with Activating mutavault to soulbound LM to it then hasting something out when it gets unpaired EoT.

I just don't like loyalist without bloodrush or dynacharge shenanigans ala AIR or rancor at the least. He's just really nto a solid card on his own =/

LM on the other hand is definitely solid, and is invaluable against Jund. Yeah it feels weak when it runs into Wolves and dies or whatever, but its definitely key to overloading an opponents removal resources whereas loyalist will be ignored until he dies to a bonfire or a wolf or something, LM is a MUST answer.

[Link]

Also, you should all check out Zem's RDW primer, both for the knowledge and for the laughably incorrect card choices section (I recommend at least reading the ones on Firefist and Foundry Street Denizen).

eeeh I wouldn't call them laughably incorrect. His card evaluation is still pretty solid in a vacuum, its how the meta of standard turned out that he couldn't predict.

Like he said in the clan thread awhile back, standard's become all about haymakers and nut draws. Firefist striker and foundry street denizen are both pretty weak as fuck cards on their own, you agree right?

ASh zealot beats the shit out of both of them, right?

But standard is about going Denizen, BTE BTE+ Firefist T2 or bust. You can't grind out advantages with ash
zealot stonewright anymore, even though they are much better cards in a vacuum. Ash Zealot still very likely IS the best red two drop for its key words, yet whens the last time you saw it in a list? Very sad.

[Jack]

Was it updated? I last read it when it was still on Sally.

It wasn't updated, it was just moved over here in in the same state it was after Gatecrash came out.

[lorddax]

Heres my Top 4 list:

[deck]KDW Variant[/deck]

Didn't use Mortars during the day. And debating the bloods...but reanimator is running around my meta.

Drop my match to counter burn over the Flames 3 for 1 Loyalist Mauler Striker with Rider in hand. Not sure what I'd want to test by messing with the X/1 count. Don't know if theres enough room for Phoenix recursion. Loyalists have also been punching thru the GW populate decks as well as all the Garruk tokens and those damn damn lingering souls.

If I can decipher my notes I'll toss em up for you guys to go over and help tighten my play.

nTech play of the day: Game 3 vs Grixis Control with Jace at 5 and +1 shutting down my offense and countered a rider last turn - 4 mana rider in hand with spear and pillar. Pillar Jace pass, spear jace during upkeep, takes bait to dissipate spear. Stick hellrider and ride to victory.

[Link]

mogg flunkies is the answer to flames! >_>b

[Khaospawn]

If they Flames the Flunkies friends, then the Flunkies are useless anyway.

[Khaospawn]

Taking it back to the old school with this :

[Deck]
Creatures 28
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
2x Stonewright
4x Ash Zealot
3x Gore-House Chainwalker
1x Lightning Mauler
4x Pyreheart Wolf
4x Hellrider
2x Hound of Griselbrand

Burn (9)
3x Pillar of Flame
4x Searing Spear
2x Flames of the Firebrand

Land (23)
3x Mutavault
20x Mountain

Sideboard
2x Burning Earth
2x Traitorous Blood
2x Electrickery
2x Volcanic Strength
3x Skullcrack
4x Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

I really want a 3rd Stonewright and a 3rd Hound, but I think that's as tight as I can get it.

[Jack]

Want to explain why you have 1 LM? How is it better than a fourth GHC, which shares it's cmc? Why isn't it the third hound or Stonewright that you want? Why don't you play a second? Writing down your reasoning should help you find the correct numbers.

[Khaospawn]

You really gonna make me do this?

Give me some time. I'll have your answers.

[Jack]

I don't need to know the answer, I just asked the question so that you can make your deck better when you try to answer it.
Personally, I'd play Stonewright instead because you are playing an extra mountain for him and he's a one drop, which helps make more hands keepable and is also a good late game draw. You don't have really fantastic synergy with LM like you do with Stonewright.

[Valdarith]

I'd just make it the fourth Chainwalker. That gives you all creatures that don't fold to Augur, and three power is nice to have right now.

[Link]

If they Flames the Flunkies friends, then the Flunkies are useless anyway.

you cant flame teh mutavaultz!

[Khaospawn]

Ok, look, guys. KDW is defined as an aggressive Red deck that is able to curve out and deliver a turn 4-5 win, but is also able to switch gears and become a controlling, grindy machine that can punch through aggro and midrange strategies.

Amiright?

Ok, with that said, the deck I posted is a tweaked version of a deck I posted about a month ago pre-m14, which is ACTUALLY a spin-off on Z's "GoodstuffZ.deck." It maindecked 2 Stonewrights, 2-3 Hound of Griselbrand, and also packed Flames of the Firebrand. It was a formidable monster.

Nobody asked about the 3/1 split on the Chainwaker and Mauler then when I posted it then, so I don't know why now it's an issue now. The short answer is personal taste. The long answer is boring.

Everybody knows about the strengths of KDW - evasive and fast creatures, sick Mountain tech with Stonewright, undying surprises from canines, able to play a long game, rewards skillfull
play, has the element of surprise with "unheard of cards," etc.

But KDW is weak in some areas: it's not as fast as most dedicated aggro decks, folds to boardwipes (except in builds with the Hound) and heavy lifegain, and when it loses it always feels like it was "1-turn behind."

In my experience, there are several ways to play KDW:

(1) The super aggro plan: This means you've opened with the nutdraw, or damn near close to it. You probably kept something like Stromirk Noble, Ash Zealot, Pyreheart Wolf, Hellrider, and 3 Mountains - you just need to draw into that 4th land! Basically, you're just gonna send guys out to the face and get there, like a true Red Mage would.

(2) The Conservative plan: This is probably my favorite way to play the deck. And 9/10 times, it banks on Stonewright. All you have to do is send out 1 guy at a time into the Red Zone, but he must be paired with ole Stoney. You use up all your mana every turn in damage thanks to the firebreathing while you
stockpile more creatures and burn with every card draw. Clear a path with burn and drop another guy when your soldier dies. This is my way of beating decks like Esper.

(3) The Wall: Just keep playing guys. Don't even attack. Stifle your opponent's offense by making a barrier of blockers. When you have enough dudes to get around his blockers (usually thanks to Pyreheart Wolf), or have enough Hellrider triggers (or both), put a smile on that face as you swing in for the kill.

(3.5) Sword and Shield: This is almost like the Wall strategy, except I coined this term in my playgroup when I first started playing with Thundermaw. Basically what you're trying to do is stonewall your opponent's offense with a dangerous wall of blockers (Ash Zealot's first strike comes to mind) and then send in one guy over the top (literally with Thundermaw...) or into their offense to wear it down. Your attacker is your Sword and your blockers are your Shield. The best Sword in this deck is usually something with First
Strike, like Hound of Griselbrand, or even just a Stonewright paired Pyreheart Wolf.

(4) The Backpedal: This is where I hate to be, but I've been finding myself here a lot lately. You're on the draw and your opponent leads with a Stromkirk Noble. On turn 2 they pull some BTE shenanigans, and follow up on turn 3 with a Reckoner. You're fucked, right? Not yet, but you're definitely in Backpedal mode. This is where you're going to have to dedicate every resource you have to playing control. You cannot reasonably race these decks in this situation and they're also packing burn. What you have to do it be patient and act with a clear head. Exhaust their resources with your burn. Trade with their creatures in the most profitable blocks that you can manage. If you can force them into topdeck mode with an empty board, you may be able to pull this one out of your ass. Win this and you can be on the draw Game 2 ready to play control.

Anyway, here are some things I've learned lately:

Red decks need to
be playing at least 10 one drops. PSully was right when he said that most people are making a mistake on playing aggressive decks without enough 1 drops. The games where you can't lead off with a creature and start applying early pressure are generally losing games.

Red decks MUST have a 3 power creature in the deck. There's just no way around it. Of course, there are exceptions: Phoenix can fly, playing Legion Loyalist + Firefist Striker + Pyreheart Wolf means your guys will probably never be blocked. FYI, I do not consider Hellrider to be an attacking work horse - he is a finisher and I am loathe to send him into certain death unless I have an ace up my sleeve. But more to the point, you NEED a dude that can smash into an Auger, a Nighthawk, a Thragtusk, or just anything with a big ass that you can finish off with some burn.

Either you play Ash Zealot or you play Burning-Tree Emissary. It's too hard to play both unless you're playing with at least 19-21 Red sources. BTE is strictly for the aggro
swarm approach. Ash Zealot, while not as explosive as BTE, is a little bit more versatile. If you play Ash Zealot, you play Stonewright too, as far as I'm concerned.

If you play "traditional" KDW, you will be the slower aggro deck. Therefore, you will have to play control against BTE decks. I would assume that Flames of the Firebrand MD is probably necessary.

I believe that for KDW to evolve, it's either going to have to become more of a BTE deck or change into a 23 land deck maindecking Hound and more burn. Be prepared to play some really grindy games.




So anyway, the list I posted has all the prerequisites for the slower, "grindier" version where I'm thinking the old-school version needs to go. I like the singleton Mauler since it can still be played on turn 2 to pair with a Cackler for a "quasi" BTE opening. Not to mention, there are just times in the late game where he can be good. The deck maindecks Hounds to punch through blockers, combo-kill with Stoney,
and can serve as a "Sword." Also, with the way the deck is configured, it's almost easy to see where certain Sideboard cards will just "slot in." With that said, I feel the maindeck is pretty tight and by adding a 3rd Stoney or Hound, it would take away some of the other elements of the deck.



But, wait! There's more!


I also crafted a more "All-in" approach to classic KDW. It's just a brew at this point (just like the other one, which I made while jacked up on Monster drinks at work...), but I like it. A lot.

[deck]
Creatures 31
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Legion Loyalist
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Gore-House Chainwalker
3 Lightning Mauler
3 Firefist Striker
4 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Hellrider

Burn 7
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Land 22
3 Mutavault
19 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Burning Earth
2 Traitorous Blood
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Volcaninc Strength
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

I'm also think the Chainwalkers could just as well be Flunkies
in this deck, a la PSully.

[lorddax]

One thing I love about playing this deck since you first posted it is all the back and forth tweaking that this deck gets.

Some experience with my current load out with the BTE is that in a match up against damage based control, the current load out is hard to make progress with. Especially when your opponent has access to X for 1s Staticaster, Flames, Bonfire. Upping resilency is something that I'd like to try.

Here's something that I'm thinking:

[deck]KDWStuffZ[/deck]

The biggest hurdle
here I think is that I cut it down to 22 lands to add in a 3rd hound for top decking wars. And that land #20 is a mountain instead of muda due to Zealot.

[lorddax]

This deck is more based on my experience at Gameday where I played RG Aggro, Counter Burn, Grixis Control, Battle of Wits(! ! ) Jund and Reanimator

[deck]KDWBTE[/deck]

Still weak to the instant speed soulbond removal. If reanimator is resurgent in the meta invert Flames & Pillars as well as if Voice has a big presence.

Flunkies over GHC for cant block wont block and to skirt flames. Loyalist count lowered to 2 as playing late vs early seems to be better in deck.
Upped Muda count for Flunkies.

I think the one of the biggest keys to playing KDW is knowing your role in the first two turns. The BTE build simplifies that decision a little by running less resilient duders and the Wont Block paradigm. What I don't like about the BTE build is that going into top deck can be very risky if your opp has more than 4 life left.

[lorddax]

Tossing this up for reference as its a much older KDW brew. Might be a good evaluation point for card swapping.
[deck]
1 Hellion Crucible
21 Mountain

4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Stonewright
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
3 Lightning Mauler
4 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Hellrider

4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Sideboard:
2 Hellion Crucible
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Frostburn Weird
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Hound of Griselbrand
2 Zealous Conscripts
[/deck]

[Khaospawn]

Tossing this up for reference as its a much older KDW brew. Might be a good evaluation point for card swapping.
[deck]
1 Hellion Crucible
21 Mountain

4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Stonewright
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
3 Lightning Mauler
4 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Hellrider

4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Sideboard:
2 Hellion Crucible
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Frostburn Weird
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Hound of Griselbrand
2 Zealous Conscripts
[/deck]

I still think this version can get there. Just replace the Crucibles with Mutavaults and go to 20x Mountain 2x Mutavault in the main.

One thing though, I really feel that if the deck starts maindecking Hounds, especially 3, the manabase needs to be tweaked. 23
feels like the sweet spot.

[Khaospawn]

One thing I love about playing this deck since you first posted it is all the back and forth tweaking that this deck gets.

Some experience with my current load out with the BTE is that in a match up against damage based control, the current load out is hard to make progress with. Especially when your opponent has access to X for 1s Staticaster, Flames, Bonfire. Upping resilency is something that I'd like to try.

Here's something that I'm thinking:

[deck]KDWStuffZ[/deck]

The biggest hurdle here I think is that I cut it down to 22 lands to add in a 3rd hound for top decking wars. And that land #20 is a mountain instead of muda due to Zealot.

The only thing I don't like about this version is that with the Flunkies, you can't play the Stonewright control plan where you just send in one beater at a time, thus forcing your opponent to trade a big dude or take a ton of damage. The Flunkies need a friend to attack with and I think Gore-House Chainwalker is strictly better in this sense. That, and it needs 23 land to ensure you're not stuck at 3 with Hellriders AND Hounds in hand.

[Jack]

Is thundermaw where we want to be right now instead of Hound? We can play more lands now that we have Mutavault, and he does have haste.
Also, is there any match up where hound is undesirable? When I played it in the board, I liked it as a fatty against small aggro decks, I liked it for its resiliency against verdict, and I liked how it could kill hunt master or its wolf and live, or kill thrag and die, then first strike kill the beast.

[lorddax]

-1 Pillar/Flames depending on meta to side and +1 Muta moved in from Side? Or do you think deck should still go to 24 lands game 2 for bringing in the last hound and control cards?

Trying to figure out the Flunkies problem. What do you think of -3 Flunkies +1 LM +2 Pyrewild Shaman? Still gives you 3 power on turn 2 and turns hound into a 10 damage for 2 mana.

[Khaospawn]

Freedom, Thundermaw is awesome. He's also a great answer to Lingering Souls.

But really, I just want to curve out at 4 and not have awkward hands like triple land, Cackler, 2 Pillars, and a Hellkite. Hound is good for all the reasons you mention, as well as keeping the curve low. Not to mention, when paired with a Stonewright, he can be even deadlier. He just needs some evasion, while the Hellkite already has evasion. I think Hound builds just need at least 8, if not more, sources of removal to help clear a path for him to hit. Flames of the Firebrand is really good to do this with. Of course, running with the Wolves is also an option.

Lorddax, I tried Pyrewild and I didn't like him. His mana cost sucks for what you get as a creature and he can't be T2'd with BTE. Stonewright does a better job as a pump and Chainwalker does his job better as a creature.

[Jack]

Okay, I'm pretty sure I know how to build the deck, play it, and above all, make it work for me, but it's been a long time since I'd thoroughly tested it against the field, and as a result, I don't have a good feel for sideboarding anymore. Does anyone feel like being helpful and taking the time to explain it?
I think I'll be playing a carbon copy of the "all-in" list that Khaos posted, because, while I'd like to play a grindier version with a transformational sideboard, I think that in a meta with such powerful decks, many of them being midrange, the speed that BTE provides is an advantage that we must capitalize on. While aggro decks are typically bad versus midrange, it seems like the cards that make the old-school version slower and more resilient don't actually help too much against Jund (although I don't know what the guys at my shop are playing, I'm worried about Jund, since it's both a bad matchup
and a powerful deck, thus being attractive to many of the more competitive players). Please, correct me if I'm wrong here, since I'd love to go back to a deck that can be less all-in.
Wow, this is much longer and more needy sounding than I had intended it to be.
Where do we bring in Traitorous Blood, and how is it better than our MD cards in these matchups?
Why do I need to play Skullcrack?
I know my aggro match-ups, but how do I play/sideboard against Jund and whatever the control players are playing these days?

[conejo]

I second the above post. It seems as though Jund and Flash have all the answers

[Jack]

I am not playing Traitorous Blood anymore. I don't know what it is about the card, but it just never feels like a clean sub. Hound of Griselbrand, welcome back to my sideboard.

[Valdarith]

I am not playing Traitorous Blood anymore. I don't know what it is about the card, but it just never feels like a clean sub. Hound of Griselbrand, welcome back to my sideboard.

Have you considered Zealous Conscripts? I always preferred the threaten on a body since I usually wasn't casting Traitorous Blood until turn six at the earliest. I've won a lot of games off conscripts and actually streamed a couple of my best ones if you need evidence of its awesomeness.

[Jack]

I've played the card before, but haven't considered using it instead of Traitorous Blood in my current build. I'm really just pissed off because I played like a complete scrub at FNM last night (probably the result of very little sleep and a long break from standard). I played a Blitz deck round 1 and lost, and the results may have been different if I actually paid attention to what his cards fucking did. For me, going back to the familiarity of Hound of Griselbrand is probably the best option.

[Khaospawn]

Freedom,

Traitorous Blood is very good against midrange decks like Jund. It works really well in conjunction with falter effects like Firefist Striker and Pyreheart effects since you're able to take away a potential blocker and punch through for more damage. Traitorous Blood negates the 5 life gained from a Thragtusk when you steal and attack with it, essentially making Traitorous Blood a 3 CMC Lava Axe.

It was the bee's knees when Junk Reanimator was a thing since you were able to deal the last few points of damage to the opponent by stealing the Angel of Serenity. Nowadays, it pretty much what you want against Jund, Predator Ooze decks, any other decks packing big critters. What makes it so effective is that it's a card that can save your ass when you're behind or just make the game all that much quicker.

I think PSully said it best when he was discussing his sideboard for the Jund MU: Two copies of Burning
Earth for when you're ahead, and two Mark of Mutiny for when you're behind.

Granted, he eschewed T-Blood for Mark, but hey, to each their own.

I think one of my coolest experiences with T-Blood was stealing a 9/9 Olivia from the Jund player and killing him with it before he could untap and kill me next turn. Or the time I stole a 21/21 Consuming Aberration to kill a stupid Esper mill player.

Also, if your curve can handle it, Zealous Conscripts is definitely a card. With Pyreheart Wolf on board, Conscripts can just send massive amounts of damage back to the opponent. Also, stealing non creatures can be pretty fun. Your Liliana is at 2 loyalty? Awesome, I'm gonna take that. While I'm at it, I'll -2 and kill her, make you sac your dude, and swing in for at least 3. Ain't that about a B?


As for Skullcrack, it is a card I was not crazy about at first but I've grown to really enjoy, much like Volcanic Strength. Play it once against the
UWR player and suddenly they're tapping out on their turn for the Revelation. And I pretty think it's necessary right now against the Hexproof decks (since swapping out a few Pillar/Spear is an upgrade considering you can stop the lifegain from Courage and dome them for 3) and the Green mana dork decks that like to *surprise!* play Fog.

In the 3 Pillar version of the KDW deck, against control the Pillars were straight swapped for Skullcrack. Against Green decks, I usually just take out some Cacklers for the 'cracks since I want as much removal as possible. The only good elf is a dead elf.

[Valdarith]

Does Skullcrack really help you against hexproof though? In my experience I would still lose casting that card since they now play four Fiendslayer Paladin mainboard and just get so far ahead. I'm actually considering Blasphemous Act to battle them since they usually shit out their hand and go into topdeck mode. Burning Earth is more than enough for UWR.

[Khaospawn]

Does Skullcrack really help you against hexproof though? In my experience I would still lose casting that card since they now play four Fiendslayer Paladin mainboard and just get so far ahead. I'm actually considering Blasphemous Act to battle them since they usually shit out their hand and go into topdeck mode. Burning Earth is more than enough for UWR.

It's a bad match-up for us either way you look at it.

The key is to just race them. And the sad thing is, they can race better than we can. On the bright side, sticking with Mono Red means we will not get mana screwed as often, we can consistently play more critters, and we have the ability to remove their little dorks which will hopefully stifle them for a turn or two.

If Hexproof
with Fiendslayer is actually a thing in your area, I recommend playing with Reckoner over Phoenix and Wolf. Reckoner can kill the Paladin with its redirect ability and is a great little wall for a naked Geist. Plus he redirects damage to the dome, which will help in the racing situation.

The problem with BlasAct is that it will usually hurt you just as much as your opponent. Unless you're playing with Reckoner (and they're not). And also, sometimes you end up having to spend too much mana than you intended to. At least, that's the way it was for me the few times I played with it.

Ultimately, the existence of such bullshit decks like Hexproof dictates we play with niche cards like Skullcrack and BlasAct. I prefer the 'crack since it's applicable against more than 1 deck. Well, that and it's just hilarious to "train" a Blue Mage to respect the card whether or not you have it in your hand.

[Khaospawn]

I had a disappointing 2-2 record at FNM. Every deck I faced was green based and my losses were to my friend's Mono Green Elf ramp deck and to some godawful Jund deck that beat me the same way twice : land Liliana, play Thragtusk, then KWR the Thragtusk for exactsies.

I'm not going to try to break the Meta in the meantime. I think I'm just gonna ride out the rest of the season with this list here and make sideboard tweaks as I see fit.

[Deck]
Creatures 28
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Lightning Mauler
4x Firefist Striker
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Hellrider

Burn 10
4x Pillar of Flame
4x Searing Spear
2x Flames of the Firebrand

Land 22
4x Mutavault
18x Mountain

Sideboarding
3x Mizzium Mortars
2x Burning Earth
2x Thundermaw Hellkite
2x Electrickery
2x Skullcrack
2x Volcanic Strength
2x Traitorous Blood
[/deck]

I'm just happy to have a list with:

(1) A
bomb-ass nutdraw

(2) Hasty critters

(3) Fliers

(4) Bombs

(5) All my favorite sideboard cards

(6) Thunder! Thunder! Thundermaw! HO!

[lorddax]

I like the changes. Audible to this after messing around with YP loyalist and volley. Am running a singleton Pyromaster over a pheonix which I may cut or increase to two.

1-2, but good losses. Two match loss were game 3 mirrors. Never had the mirror go to time before, but that happens when the board state becomes whoever falters first loses. I died to a Reckoner from the board on two life after allowing it to live past its drop turn. Stayed in game thanks to vstrength as long as possible but no love from mortars. The mirror is rough when opp is sitting on 15 life to your 10.

Second loss in g3 was t3 play was flames for cackler and dome because I had no Phoenix, I lost a couple turns later where a t3 Phoenix would have gave me exactsies.

Will probably test this more a d especially the mirror. Not sure if I boarded correctly for on the play and on the draw

[Jack]

Before I bring this deck to FNM for the last time, I'd like to express my sincerest thanks to Khaospawn for putting so much time and effort into developing this deck and putting out so much informative and interesting material on it. Having someone share all of his expertise from over a decade of Magic really helped me to improve my game quickly. Above all, the deck was the cause of my best time as an embermage. Here's to KDW!

[RedNihilist]

[Khaospawn]

Cheers, guys. We gave it a good run. The deck will be missed.