MDU's Rx Builds

For decks that are not quite tier 1 but are still evolving.

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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby stuffydollfan » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:27 am

I don't have a specific deck in mind yet since there are a couple of new cards I want to test. New Incinerate is going to be an automatic 4-of but everything else will get tested. In order to make room for incinerate i'm thinking of dropping the Olivia's from the deck or the Ravenous Bloodseeker's.

Some of the cards that I really want to test out are Bedlam Reveler. Like I said earlier, the Rakdos deck is his perfect home. We can easily fill the yard with instants and sorcery spells to make him cheap. Though he might have to take place of either Olivia or Thunderbreak Dragon. I like the dragon better than Olivia. But Olivia combined with another flyer usually spells game over in 2 turns.

Collective Defiance might be worth testing in place of Exquisite Firecraft. There's not many times in the format where the "cannot be countered" matters. Having the option of being able to hit creatures for the same amount of damage as Firecraft is nice, paying 1 mana to deal 3 damage to the controller is something good as well. Missing out on 4 damage to an opponent is kinda a big deal though.

Colective Brutality is something that might be regulated as a sideboard option against control.I wish it did -3/-3 to creatures instead but it still might be ok against other creature decks. The drain for 2 is nice against both aggro and control.

Stormkirk Occultist offers repeatable CA but I just don't see her working all that well. Idk but most creatures in the madness deck have some sort of evasion and don't need much help to get in. But her effect is powerful enough that makes this worth taking a look at. Most like takes the place Olivia, or the Bloodseeker in testing.

Lupine Prototype seems like something we might want to try but I don't think this is a good deck for it. As the deck is currently constructed, we don't really discard our hand really fast but instead just use discard to cheat things out. Sure we got the ability to go fast sometimes but that kind of play style requires us to change the deck from where it is going.

Stromkirk Condemned is double black therefore automatically eliminated unless we switch over to B/r which might be worth taking another look into. This card would be perfect for a heavy creature based vampire madness deck.

Bloodhall Priest reminds me of a mini red titan which was a really good card. This card does have potential and I think it might be worth testing out.

Anyways I will make a quick list when I get home.

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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby stuffydollfan » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:02 am

Here's a quick mock up of an Eldericht Moon Rakdos madness deck I might play.

[deck]Rakdos Madness

22 Lands
4 Foreboding Ruins
12 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp

15 Creatures
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Heir of Falkenrath
3 Bedlam Reveler
4 Thunderbreak Regent

23 Instant/Sorcery
1 Titan's Strength
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Alms of the Vein
2 Read the Bones
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper

Sideboard
3 Lightning Axe
3 Avacyn's Judgment
2 Goldnight Castigator
2 Collective Brutality
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Virulent Plague[/deck]

Like I said in my previous thread, I am swapping out all 3 copies of Olivia and 4 copies of Bloodseeker. I'm hoping that Between the Neonate, Heir, Tormenting Voice that there is enough discard outlets to be able to madness a few spells and hope that I wont miss the Bloodseeker's versatility. Incendiary Flow will take it's place and it should be a good upgrade.

I really want to try out Bedlam Reveler and had to cut Olivia to make room for it. The deck now has 23 cards to make him cheaper and I should be ok with running 3 of him. While I like Olivia for giving us the ability to close out games in a pinch, often times she's just dealt with very efficiently and does nothing. So I figured why not give the new guy a shot. Keeping the land count to 22 because we are greedy and we got plenty of card draw to help us shape our hand.

The one of Titan's Strength was something I don't think I mentioned earlier but I replaced it for a land since I wanted to be greedy and have something that can capitalize on the ability of our creatures to get in for damage. I guess this would be a card you can easily cut out for an extra land if you feel the need but personally this deck has been doing good on 22 lands. That's pretty much it for main deck. Hopefully the deck wont suffer on having less madness enablers and not having a creature with an ability to close out games fast under the right circumstances.

For the side I removed 2 Sinister Concoction for 2 Collective Brutality. The concoction has been underwhelming for the most part. And it's probably redundant seeing as how the side already has 3 Lightening Axe. Collective Brutality also gives us something to use against control which we didn't have many cards in the board dedicated to the MU, works ok against creature decks, and provides another madness outlet.

There are still many cards worth testing out but I think the new incinerate and creature are the best from the bunch. I could be wrong and just be wanting to cram that guy in the deck but I really feel he will be a great fit. That's what I'm going to be testing out for the new standard. At first I was kinda bum out but now I'm pretty excited for all the new stuff.

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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby dauntless268 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:36 pm

@ Stuffydolphan: I like Bedlam but I think guy's home is probably more an UR Prowess Deck, where it acts as a kind of Treasure Cruise - like effect to refill your hand.

--------------------

Sooooo now the set is fully spoiled, let's see. A few of the remaining red cards are noteworthy, mainly the new Lightning Ball (http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/impetuousdevils.html) and Furyblade Vampire, a bit of a better Bloodseeker (http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/fury ... mpire.html). I also like Distemper of the Blood (http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/dist ... blood.html), not fully sure if that one is constructed playable.

The set is full of strong cards, and it will probably take a while for the meta to settle. Madness has definitely gotten an upgrade, but so has Bant Company in whatever form (why on earth did Wizards print another Reflector Mage-esque creature??). Not sure how these Emerge cards will play out, this looks like a potentially broken mechanic similar to delve...

I still like the idea to go fast aggro best, either the Mono Red version or a fast RB Aggro Variant. IF RB, I might want to try something like this:

[deck]RB Madness[/deck]
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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby stuffydollfan » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:20 am

Obviously blue is the best color for drawing but i think the madness deck I'm playing does a decent job of drawing and putting instant/sorcery spells in the grave yard. I can easily see this being cast on turn 5 or 4 and later in the game getting him almost always for 2-red.

I'm not a big fan of the new Ball Lightning mainly because it is over costed and it is very easy to deal with. And in the end, it just doesn't do enough for us especially compared to the dragon which cost the same.

Distemper of Blood, it's really bad to pay the real cost of the spell and ok to pay for madness. Could be good for decks running more heavy on creatures. Either way I don't think it will do enough. Might as well run Titan's Strength if we want a pump spell.

Furyblade Vampire is sort of interesting. On the one hand, it allows us to attack stronger than the Bloodseeker, but on the other hand it is not as versatile as a Bloodseeker. I think it's good enough to test out.

I do agree that there are many good cards that lend themselves quite nicely for R/x decks. Should be a more fun standard than the last one at the very least.

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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:13 am

Ok, I'll admit WOTC did good this set :p

I'm very happy with the current Red cards - lets me play grindy Rx max (which is my favorite type of R style - I'm hugely bias toward PyroRed type builds).

P.S. Bedlam is good in Rx Aggro/Grind - its not good in Midrange or going big.
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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby dauntless268 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:24 pm

I agree. There's a lot of possibilities for Rx now and I also prefer the grindy style much more.

I think it's fair to state already at this point that both Bant Humans and Bant Spirits will be very good decks this season (Tamiyo is an absurd card, too) and that Ramp decks will be there, too - possibly in a different form using the new Emerge mechanic. I also would be very surprised if there was any sort of control deck before rotation - Collected Company is just too strong. Big question is what happens to GW and whether it can hold itself up against the new Bant decks. WR Humans didn't get much but is already pretty streamlined and I could see it well positioned in the new Meta - given that the biggest (only?) weakness of the various Bant Decks is the somewhat clunky manabase (seriously Wizards - not printing a Tri land in Bant colors?? :D )

All this makes me definitely not want to go the Big Red or Midrange direction and actually has me wonder whether it's time to bring back Fiery Impulse to the maindeck, alsongside a ton of other spells and Bedlam as a recharge. The more I think about him, the more I like the big devil. Grinding away with cheap creatures and spells for a few turns and then cast the Devil for 3 or 4 mana could be really nice - especially as this thing can neither be countered by the new Flash Spirit, nor really effectively boomeranged by Reflector Mage. I'll think about it a bit more, but I could see a list here...

MDU, what's your current thinking in terms of a starting point?

@ LaZer - haven't see you a long time on here - how do you like the new cards?
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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby stuffydollfan » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:05 am

I agree that both bant humans and spirits will probably be the more stronger decks going in the new standard. They got way too many goodies for G/W and anything in those colors should be holding strong i think. White Humans get Thalia, which i'm pretty certain it will see play in almost anything that can run it. We might see a rise in B/G delirium decks seeing as how they got some good stuff too, between getting Grim Flayer and Murder, I can see them competing more. And ramp has new Emrakul which they should be able to cast a little faster and kill us with its dumb mind slaver ability. Doesn't look like control got much to be happy about but who knows how the new standard is going to play out.

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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby stuffydollfan » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:42 pm

I have to wait till the 1st for the online release day for Eldritch Moon. Can't play any paper tournament till the Portland GP in August. I will be taking Rakdos Madness or some sort of variation to that event. That gives me less than 2 weeks of prep time. Hopefully that's enough time to get me into high level form again.

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Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:53 pm

I don't play paper magic so I wont really be brewing until 2 or more weeks when it hits online

- - -

Lots of people seem to be brewing Loot Burn variants on MTGS, it does seem decent but I fear for its effectiveness in meta with MD'able lifegain effects.

- - -

8x Searing Effects dramatically improves our beat down with bear plan which is GREAT! which is why I think I'm going to try something with 8x Searing Effects, 12 or more 1-drops and 10 or more Loot effects to compensate for the 1-drops being bad in the latter part of the game. Still trying to workout the numbers and if I want Abbot or not.
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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby dauntless268 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:29 pm

Thanks MDU, interesting way to approach deckbuilding by looking at which types of red effects we want to have.

I've been thinking a lot about Red in this new Meta, given that I want to keep playing Rx in both paper and online as long as it's as much fund as it has been in th past couple of months (gaa, I'm even getting better in Limited, Top 8ed my prerealease today with UW control :p)

Here's a few thoughts that I have collected over the last 2 weeks
- Hanweir Garrison gets a lot of good reviews, but I tend to think it fails the Reflector Mage test, much like Chandra did last season.
- It's kind of ironic that we are now getting incendiary flow as a sorcery, while Wizards prints half a dozen excellent flash spells. I think testing will have to show how good this really is - I'm beginning to have my doubts
- On a similar note, CvM posted a list with 8 Dragons on SCG (it was also posted on MTGS) which to my eyes looks HORRIBLE. I think Mirrorwing Dragon is much to slow for what it does in the current meta. It ***might*** become good when this whole Bant nonsense rotates, but before then, I really don't see it
- I have made the same observation as you regarding MD lifegain - Lone Rider appears a bit of a busted card when combined with Ojutai's Command and/or blessed Alliance...
- One card I can't quite wrap my head around is Otherworldly Outburst (http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/othe ... burst.html). Something tells me it's WAAAY too cute for constructed but then again it's potentially a 3/2 for 1 mana and a way to keep both the spell and the creature count high
- I just realized at the Prerelease that with Impetuous Devils WE get to chose which creature blocks, so it acts as a de-facto Searing Effect. It would have been great last Season, but I'm worried it's too bad against Spell Queller to see play

I agree that some of the builds on MTGS appear a bit dubious, mainly I'm not sure how much these pilots think about the meta which will evolve instead of just going "hey, let's throw these great cards together - could be a deck!" :ugeek: ;-) But that said, I think they are right in that Bedlam Reveler is a great card for Red decks, and most of the Builds I've seen are trying to make him work. As I said before UR may indeed be the best home, but it's certainly not the only one!

I find it quite difficult to create lists (not sure why) here's at least two for the sake of delivering some principle ideas.

[deck]Mono Red[/deck]

This deck is operating under the assumption of a meta full of Bant decks, trying to out-tempo and eventually outgrind them. The deck eschews Incendiary Flow for more instant speed removal. This deck would be REALLY bad if Languish Decks can hold themselves up and complete and utter crap if ever control or non-emerge ramp decks become a significant share of the meta.

[deck]Mono Red[/deck]

This is the deck I would want to try if Bant decks don't dominate the meta. It plays 8 Searing effects and maximizes on 1 drops, using Abbot as the only 2 drop. The Spires should help to get the attackers through until about t4 when the Devils and the defiance comes to help

[deck=Red/Black Madness]
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Furyblade Vampire
2 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Bloodhall Priest
4 Incorrigible Youths

4 Alms of the Vein
4 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
3 Stensia Masquerade

4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
5 Swamp
10 Mountain
[/deck]

I'm not sure how consistent this deck is, but I feel the upgrade of Furyblade Vampire over Ravenous Bloodseeker plus the addition of Bloodhall Priest make this at least worth trying.

Thanks as always for letting me know your thoughts!
Last edited by dauntless268 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:54 pm

Mirrorwing Dragon is really good just for being 4/5 (dodges most sweepers) - his other abilities are just pudding (though its quite godly vs midrange).

- - -

When I say Searing Effects I meant cards which deal with creatures and deal damage at the same time so Roar + Defiance.

I also agree that Hanweir Garrison is quite good (esp. if your on the kill everything plan) it kinda reminds me of Rabblemaster.

- - -

[deck]R Aggro v1[/deck]

Really basic list, resolve cheap creatures early and then ride them for as long as possible via clearing the board.

Late game = looting, dragons and burning face.
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Postby dauntless268 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:08 am

I understand searing effects, was just pointing out that at 4CMC, Impetuous Devils does something similar as Collective Defiance in certain board states.

------------------

Overall, I think Impetuous Devils could be one of those great sideboard cards, that do a ton of work against tapout-based midrange decks, such as certain GB variants and also GW tokens.

------------------

In his latest SCG article, Tom Ross surprisingly calls Otherworldly Outburst "his favorite card in the set". He argues:

Otherworldly Outburst lets me fine-tune combat a touch like Titan's Strength or Defiant Strike. Otherworldly Outburst enables better attacks, like a Falkenrath Gorger into a Sylvan Advocate. Otherworldly Outburst can be used anytime a creature is about to die, like in response to a removal spell, to get a 3/2 Eldrazi Horror for only one mana.

While likely unnecessary, Otherworld Outburst can be combined with creatures that you can count on dying, like Insolent Neonate.


I think the point of allowing our 1-drops to trade up is very valid. After having played with the card at the Prerelease (again Top 8 today :jam:), I can confirm it's really good. Worthwhile to test this I think.

----------------------

He further mentions two cards I have brought up earlier, Furyblade Vampire and Stromkirk Occultist:

two key Vampires that up the count of playable red Vampire cards enough to have a Mono-Red version. In my very humble opinion, Reckless Bloodseeker and Bloodmad Vampire are just too weak for the Constructed world. Furyblade Vampire and Stromkirk Occultist are nice upgrades to those. Along with Collective Defiance and Incendiary Flow, you have enough reach to get the job done. Mono-Red Vampires is unlikely to be a Tier 1 deck, but at least it will be a playable deck.

I really like how well Stensia Masquerade plays with Furyblade Vampire!

-----------------------

Two more thoughts on RB Madness:

Collective Brutality is an interesting Black "Burn Spell", with a lot of potential upside. It can also act like a Searing Effect under certain circumstances.

Interesting question for the new meta is whether or not Avacyn's Judgement might end up being good. If there's a lot of x/1 spirits flying around it could be quite useful and it's a reasonable, if not exactly great madness outlet.

EDIT: Tom Ross tested a RB Vampires Build in a vs. Video on SCG against BG Eldrazi Emerge and concluded that Black isn't worth it in the deck and he'd rather go Mono Red. Furyblade Vampire looked OK and Stromkirk Occultist actually really good. Alms did a pretty bad Lava Axe impression... Collective Brutality looks like a rather strong t2 play against us, as it kills our 2-drop creature and in addition "trades" a discard card - with the fine detail that our opponent gets to choose both the card that we have to discard and the one he discards himself. :(

All this is pointing towards 1-drops, lots of 1-drops.... :)

--------------------------
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Postby stuffydollfan » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:30 pm

Anyone remember the deck list Tom was testing out? We had already agreed that you're better off running mono red here if you go creature heavy. I still think you can successfully run a r/b madness deck.

I did play in a few pre-release events this past weekend and got to test out some of the new cards i was curious about. Stromkirk Occultist won a game for me after I re animated it, and used it to go all the way on my opponent. And even though it was a limited environment I can see it performing just as well in standard. Fury Blade Vampire was better than expected as well. At first I was a bit nervous since it was not as flexible as Bloodseeker but 4 power trample from a 2 cmc creature that helps enable madness is not a bad spot to be in. I can see any variation of red running these two cards.

Last two cards I played with was Collective Brutality and Bloodhall Priest. I was a bit underwhelmed by the priest since it pretty much needs to be Hellbent in order to activate its ability. Even though we are a madness deck, we usually don't always want to empty our hands. It was big in limited but in Standard its probably whole different story. Collective Brutality was always good when I had it. All 3 modes are relevant against all different kinds of decks and hitting more than one can be huge. In standard, I could see it always being able to do something relevant.

For the GP i still plan on sticking with Rakdos but I will also test out other Mono Red builds to see if they are powerful enough.

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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby dauntless268 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:25 pm

Here's the list Tom played:

[deck=Tom Ross' RB Madness]

Creatures (20)
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Furyblade Vampire
2 Incorrigible Youths
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Stromkirk Occultist
2 Olivia, Mobilized for War

Lands (24)
10 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium

Spells (16)
4 Fiery Temper
4 Alms of the Vein
4 Collective Brutality
4 Incendiary Flow

Sideboard
2 Bloodhall Priest
2 Stensia Masquerade
4 Lightning Axe
4 Duress
3 Malevolent Whispers
[/deck]

Notably no Heir of Falkenrath - must have felt that repeatable madness is more important than objective power. What the key insight was that when the deck's opponent can deal with the madness enablers (primarily the Furyblade Vampires) the deck loses a lot of its power immediately.
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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby dauntless268 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:22 pm

I finally figured that Otherworldly Outburst is worth a try in a deck that runs enough 1-drops

Here's my two updated lists for week 1, including a shot at a possible sideboard

[deck]MonoRed v1[/deck]

This is as close to the classic 20/20/20 list as you can possibly get in this meta. Fiery Impulse is a concession to all the flash creatures running around and also to enable more Outburst Shenanigans. With so many 1-drops, you often have only 1 mana open. Bedlam Reveler out of the Sideboard is for the WR humans matchup, which is still seriously bad g1. Impetuous Devils would come in against Tapout Decks.

[deck]MonoRed v2[/deck]

Similar list, but more grindy / CA based then the first one. Sideboard is similar, but more aggro creatures to help against the more controlling matchups.
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Postby stuffydollfan » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm

Oh yeah I can see why it wouldn't work as good in that version of the deck. He is definitely missing out on those essential madness enablers. Without them most of the madness spells have to be played at actual retail price instead of getting them at a discount. The problem like we've discovered in this thread is you have to go the full on madness plan in order to make best use of it. Going with a RDW type of deck sort of dilutes that strategy and at that point you are better off going mono red.

Luckily red finally got enough tools to make a competitive deck. I'm liking all the list for the mono red decks you've guys have posted but wheres Rabblemaster 2.0 in the list? That thing was house the last time around and the new one seems to be almost as good. It might be a mistake not to run them. Hell, I'm thinking of making space for Hanweir Garrison in the Rakdos list. I really can't wait till tomorrow. Hopefully they will have all the cards i requested tomorrow at the shop and can play some games against people in between rounds.

I'm not sure i'm sold on Otherworldly Outburst just yet. I mean it does make it far easier to attack into situations where our creatures are going to die and trade with something else but wouldn't we rather just use a pump spell on something that is unblocked? And in that case why not use something like Titan's Strength? Maybe I'm wrong here.

I know i'm going all over the place but there's just way too many good cards to discuss and I'm really hoping to find something for the GP.

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MDU's Rx Builds

Postby dauntless268 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:45 pm

I'm not sure about Hanweir on account of all those Reflector Mages and Spell Quellers that I expect to see.

Re: Otherworldly Outburst: Compare attacking with a Zurgo into a Sylvan Advocate (or any other x/3 for that matter) when holding a Titan's Strength with holding an Otherworldly Outburst. In one case you get 2 for 1 ed (or can't attack), in the other case you trade and get a 3/2 for 1 mana. You can of course get disrupted, but I figure the fact that it's an instant makes it more playable than Skin Invasion. It might still be garbage, of course - only with testing will find out... ;-)
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Postby stuffydollfan » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:44 am

Yeah I can see why you might be concerned to run Hanweir Garrison in a meta that can deal with it so effectively. I also expect to to a resurgence of the U/W spirits, and the continued dominance of Bant Company, G/W tokens, and Mono White Weenie. Man I hate white. Feels bad not being a top deck for standard.

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Postby dauntless268 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:51 pm

Ugh, this new UR Emerge deck with 4 Kozilek's Return is going to shred RDW to pieces.... This could be an jnteresting meta
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Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:50 am

UR Emerge looks just like Wordbuilder or Eldrazi control in the pre-Moon meta (except with less counters).

It should be fine as long as your not on the heavy aggro route (which seems just as bad as it did pre-Moon))

- - -

I think Red Players seem to be underrating Exquisite Firecraft, 4 damage to the dome is nothing to scoff at.
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Postby dauntless268 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:13 pm

I would rate it stronger, because Emerge does not require to commit to "do nothing to the board" ramp spells....

Question is how many burn spells we want. I like Firecraft, but prefer the flexibility of Collective Defiance and not sure we can justify too many cmc3 spells?
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Postby stuffydollfan » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:45 pm

I was able to get all the new cards i wanted from the new set last night (8x Bedlam Wanderer!!!) And I updated the deck. I played the newest deck I posted on here with some modifications. I removed the Dragons all together from the list because I wanted to test out Collective Brutality and because I wanted to further build around to Bedlam Wanderer. Everything else was the same as far as i remember it.

I played against my friends Bant Company deck that uses both Thalia, Heritic Cathar and Spell Queller. Both are very powerful editions to the already powerful deck. We played between 6-7 games and I only won 2 games. The deck showed some potential but I think I strayed too far off from that delicate balance it needs to have to be at its most optimal.

A couple of things to note. The new incinerate, even at sorcery speed is a very welcomed edition to the deck. Collective brutality is good. Getting to escalate for more even at the expense of another card can be huge and is a madness enabler which we can never have enough of. Also I think there will always be at least one mode in any match up that will be useful. I was usually able to cast Bedlam Wanderer for 4-5 mana with some draws on turn 4 and 5 and even cheaper sometimes. Decided to go against running the deck with more creatures and left the ones I thought were the most essential.

Anyways I know it's not much but that's all I got for now. Hopefully I can test some more later on when I'm off from work.

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Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:26 pm

I view Fiery Temper as a 3cc spell which is sometimes 1cc so if I was was to run firecraft it would be over them (that said I'm still on Roar and having an instant speed removal MD is very important for mainlands).

- - -

I'm also rather keen on Bedlam Reveler since I think its pretty much an upgrade on Abbot for the more grindy builds.
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Postby stuffydollfan » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:20 pm

Having instant speen burn is so big but I agree. If you want to make space for Collective Defiance, then the place for it would be in the Fiery Temper slot.

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Postby dauntless268 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:01 am

Not sure I would agree. Not in a world where everybody is playing flash creatures. But the build I want to try build is a little bit different with a "light" madness theme with 4 Lighgning Axe, Falkenrath Gorger and Insolent Neonate as enablers and Fiery Temper and Stromkirk Occultist as Outlets, hence Temper is a key card here I don't want to cut. My thinking is that these cards are all individually ok if you don't get to madness them but you still get some good synergies. If that doesn't work I'd be all happy to move to an updated Dragon's list.

-----------

Maybe it's just me playing the card differently but Bedlam Reveler reminds me much more of an improved version of Goblin Dark Dwellers than of an Abbot Upgrade. Abbot is a creature that is very flexible being a 2 drop, a scry for land tool and a "top deck again for burn" card in the late game

-----------

SCG Open, no red deck to be seen. Tom Ross playing W/R Humans with no Eldritch Moon Card. Pat Sully mentions that Red might not be that badly positioned, incl. Rending Volley out of the sideboard vs. Gisela, Thalia and Spell Queller. EDIT: Actually one lone Mono Red Player made day 2 and ended up somewhere in the Top 64, with a Thermo Alchemist Burn Deck (!!)
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Postby LaZerBurn » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:33 pm

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Thanks to NerdBoyWonder for the awesome sig :)

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Postby dauntless268 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:58 pm

Absolutely, gotta love it... is Thermo Alchemist the new Young Peezy? Could add a Haven or two as well... It's definitely something very different from all we've played before. Still hard to see how you can win against Bant Company without getting a few points of creature damage, but hack this is worth testing!

--------------------------

I'm actually fumbling around with a Rakdos build at the moment which takes the "light" madness theme (a deck that uses madness cards that are plyable on its own without the synergies) one step further. Partly this is because of Asylum Visitor, a card which I feel might benefit from the printing of Incendiary Flow quite a bit.

Here's where I am with it:

[deck]
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Falkenrath Gorger / Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Stromkirk Occultist

4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Axe
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Collective Defiance
2 Exquisite Firecraft

5 Swamp
9 Mountain
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
[/deck]

I tested a Pre-Eldritch Moon Version of the deck last night just to get a feel and kind of liked it, despite the horrible cards I was forced to play (with Bloodmad Vampire, Burn from Within etc.:frown:). it was quite interesting to see how often you actually get to draw a card off Asylum Visitor for extra gas once your first aggro wave peters out. The card that was least impressive was actually Falkenrath Gorger, so I'm thinking of replacing him with Abbot.

If new Liliana turns out to be everywhere this could of course end up being garbage, but could this be something otherwise?

---------------------------

Random thought. It always strikes me how consistently people on MTG Sally evaluate the best case scenario of cards and decks. Thermo Alchemist turns out to be successful, and they immediately want to stick 4-of Chandra and Sin Prodder into the deck to "make it more consistent" :)
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Postby dauntless268 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:25 pm

Here's two links regarding Max McVety's deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33 ... erred.html

and

https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comment ... _columbus/

McVety himself comments on his deck in the lower part of the thread
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Postby stuffydollfan » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:01 pm

I played with the Thermo-Alchemist in the pre-release and he did manage to leave a good impression on me. While normally I hate most 0/3, the alchemist was able to put in some work. Though I initially thought that he would be too cute for standard, but apparently he seems to be alright. I do like that he is able to come out on turn 2 and block the annoying Sylvan Advocate and anything else 2 or less power. I remember Ravenous Bloodseeker provided the madness decks with a similar function in that it was able to block anything early on, but it also provided the deck with a repeatable madness outlet. The Alchemist at least is always able to get in for 1 point of damage every turn and usually for more.

Don't have an updated list yet but I will be looking to add the alchemist in the madness deck soon.

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Postby dauntless268 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:43 pm

[deck]Mono Red Burn[/deck]
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Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:52 am

Sea Gate Wreckage seems like an odd choice considering the fact that you need colourless mana to activate its ability.
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Postby dauntless268 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:49 am

thanks, now I realize why nobody's playing it it mono red.... :D

Thanks god theorycrafting will come to an end soon...
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Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:28 am

Aya... in theory new Lilly is going to making deck build difficult for me - I use to always jam 2/2 creatures in my builds to counter control but it doesn't seem as viable anymore. Lilly really does make many of our old cards rather weak, though Dash is still strong at least.

I kinda want to play mirror dragon but it doesn't seem like a good idea while [card]Dromoka's Command[/card] is in the format T_T

- - -

Meh... setting up the deck as Control/Burn deck for the first two weeks is the plan anyway since midrange and aggro tend to dominate during that period. Still need to work out the pressure cards for control though.

- - -

Starting to believe those 0/3 Mages are going to be real red staple this meta.
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Postby dauntless268 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:03 pm

Starting to test now...

One option we have is to go red/blue. This would give us Stormchaser Mage for the main and fevered visions for the Sideboard, an excellent anti control card...
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Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:02 pm

I don't think its necessary to splash yet - we still have tons of powerful haste options (Goldnight Castigator is still a very powerful card, its easier to MD now as well with Insolent Neonate and Collective Defiance compensating for when its dead).
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Postby dauntless268 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:53 pm

How do you think Thunderbreak is positioned? I fear for it being Spell Queller-ed for maximum tempo loss...
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Postby dauntless268 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:40 pm

OK, so just for the record (and because I was stupid enough to buy Jaces at some point), I think this one could be quite strong:

[deck]
Lands 23
3 Island
10 Mountain
2 Highland Lake
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef

Creatures 15
4 Stormchaser Mage
4 Thermo Alchemist
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Bedlam Reveler

Burn 18
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Fiery Temper
4 Collective Defiance
2 Exquisite Firecraft

Draw 4
4 Magmatic insight

Sideboard
4 Fevered Visions
4 Rending Volley
2 Lightning Weaver
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Twin Bolt
[/deck]

So back to Mono Red, here's a few first impressions from testing:

[deck]
Lands 22
20 Mountain
2 Geier Reach Sanatorium (!)

Creatures 16
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Stromkirk Occultist
4 Bedlam Reveler

Burn 22
4 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Fiery Temper
4 Collective Defiance
2 Exquisite Firecraft

Sideboard
4 Lightning Berserker (anti-control)
3 Goldnight Castigator (anti-control)
2 Twin Bolt (anti-x/1)
2 Lightning Weaver (anti x/1)
4 Rending Volley (anti Bant+Humans)
[/deck]

I did win a lot - but note this was too early to run into Bant Co-Co in a 2-man, so the real test for this deck has not yet happened (plan here would be to grind them out slowly and provide as little fodder to Reflector Mage as possible):

Collective Defiance - very good, if usually a 4 mana removal spell; together with Firecraft it provides enough flexible removal also vs. the dreaded Kalitas etc. note how much worse Roast has gotten in this meta...

Incendiary Flow - solid, very solid. Of course we never draw it when they have Matter Reshaper ;-)

Bedlam Reveler - started with 3, quickly wanted a 4th. You can if necessary pitch extra copies to Lightning Axe.

Stromkirk Occultist - this is a tricky one. The goal of this deck is to sneak him into play eoT with Axe or Neonate (or later with Sanitarium) after the opponent has attacked. It worked great for me in testing, question if people with get used to playing around him. I'm still not sure whether it's better to let him trade at a profit (i.e. attack into the opponent's 2/2 or 3/2) or to remove the blocker and and be happy with the 3 damage and keeping the threat up. For now, I like the flexibility of the card.
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Postby magicdownunder » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:02 am

How do you think Thunderbreak is positioned? I fear for it being Spell Queller-ed for maximum tempo loss...
Its fine - that argument is like saying we shouldn't run Collective Defiance or Exquisite Firecraft due to [card]Dromoka's Command[/card].
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Postby dauntless268 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:28 am

Hmm... maybe you're right. After all we have infinite ways to remove the Queller and a Flash Dragon for 1 Mana is nothing to scoff at... :D
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Postby magicdownunder » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:29 pm

Is Bedlam Reveler the real deal? It doesn't really look like something you want to many copies of since its discard clause is quite bad for a list packing so many 3cc spells and low land counts.
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