Red Deck Wins post-Origins

For decks that are not quite tier 1 but are still evolving.

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Postby Purp » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:12 pm

I'll be giving the phoenixes and Titans str a try tonight and report back. Gold fishing so far is nice, but I don't think I can get behind 4 berserkers.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:19 pm

Rule # of testing new decks: Don't change anything until after you've played some games with it.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby dauntless268 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:27 pm

The more all of the flipwalkers (except Liliana) see play, the better searing blood will become. At the moment it looks like we're heading this way, at least with Jace and Nissa. I still like MJ because it helps set up your next turn(s) - which especially in the mid game is so important for a red deck. Plus however favored we may be, I don't feel comfortable with 4 dead cards g1 if creatures less control is a big part of the meta. We'll have to see where the control decks develop (searing blood is quite good against Hangarback Walker as in Jeff Hoogland's SCG list)
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:30 pm

I've definitely searing blooded a monastery swiftspear for prowess against control decks before.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Valdarith » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:42 pm

I'll be giving the phoenixes and Titans str a try tonight and report back. Gold fishing so far is nice, but I don't think I can get behind 4 berserkers.
4 Berserker is really good with Flamewake Phoenix.
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Postby Purp » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:58 pm

Rule # of testing new decks: Don't change anything until after you've played some games with it.
The sb is terrible im definitely changing it before I play tonight haha. Md will be similar
Last edited by Purp on Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bouncin12 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:01 pm

Here's a look at what Saito posted for his goblin-less aggro build. Those of you on the Searing Blood plan may be on to something.
[deck]Lands
21 Mountains

Non-Creatures
4 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
4 Searing Blood
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Stoke the Flames

Creatures
2 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
3 Lightning Berserker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel[/deck]

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Postby Purp » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:08 pm

I don't put much stock in His lists, they are certainly untuned. Sometimes he just jams four-ofs into the deck. Granted that list is pretty stock... Scab clan is bad in the current meta imo.

I really want new Chandra to be good, but I really can't think of a match up she would excel in
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Postby dpaine88 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:17 pm

Wow 4 Lightning bezerker huh, any special reason behind that? Higher than normal
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Postby Bouncin12 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:32 pm

I'm noticing a lot of lists are trending away from Rabblemaster. Any specifics as to why? I've been playing around with the new Chandra against a couple decks and if I untap with her, I'm in a position to put a lot of pressure. What are you guys' thoughts on her vs other 3 drops?

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Postby Purp » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:45 pm

I think we all agree rabble master is the best 3 drop, but I don't think he's best for the burn heavy build we are looking to brew here. It's possible We put him in just because he is the nuts.

I have not tested new Chandra because I just can't think of a matchup where her presence increases my win %
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Postby NotARobot » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:46 pm

I don't think I would ever run Chandra over rabblemaster. They both are great if they live, but if rabblemaster sticks around hes a significantly faster clock than chandra.

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:49 pm

What don't you like about the SB purp?
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Bouncin12 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:52 pm

Is chandra not better in a burn oriented build? She brings evasive damage with her ping and if she flips the opponent is on an even faster clock without us investing more cards into it (although this is somewhat unbalanced by the card(s) you may use to make her flip)

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Postby Narcasus » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:34 am

Thanks for the report! Some of your SB choices seem suboptimal when I compare them to what I might do... Which I think showcases the potential power this deck has.

What changes would you make if you had to make some? How did magma jet and Chandra perform for you? What about the lands? Did you feel you had the right number (or too many)
I agree I could have better SB choices.

It would probably be cutting the chandra main deck and trying to be more aggresive game 1. Similar to the list LP posted, I had a lot of sucess with Flamewake pre origins and would definitely like to test it in a burn style shell. I think 22 lands was perfect for making sure to hit 3 and 4 mana early on.

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Postby Valdarith » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:48 am

Wow 4 Lightning bezerker huh, any special reason behind that? Higher than normal
Remember when we started running 2 Stonewright in RTR/INN RDW, then went to 3, then later 4?

Well, turns out Lightning Berserker is actually better. He doesn't require Soulbond to pump (though this was sometimes actually an upside) and he can be dashed in.

I think if you aren't going to run FSD or Firedrinker Satyr you pretty much have to run 4 Berserker. I happen to be on the 10+ one drop side of the argument though. In LP's list 4 Berserker also plays well with Flamewake Phoenix.

A note on mana: why not run Foundry of the Consuls past 20 Mountains?
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Postby Purp » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:55 am

What don't you like about the SB purp?
I dislike having 6 weak cards vs control, and only 3 cards to bring in. UB players at my store have 8-10 cards for the matchup.
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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:57 am

Wow 4 Lightning bezerker huh, any special reason behind that? Higher than normal
Remember when we started running 2 Stonewright in RTR/INN RDW, then went to 3, then later 4?

Well, turns out Lightning Berserker is actually better. He doesn't require Soulbond to pump (though this was sometimes actually an upside) and he can be dashed in.

I think if you aren't going to run FSD or Firedrinker Satyr you pretty much have to run 4 Berserker. I happen to be on the 10+ one drop side of the argument though. In LP's list 4 Berserker also plays well with Flamewake Phoenix.

A note on mana: why not run Foundry of the Consuls past 20 Mountains?
Oh the memories with Stonewright and Ash Zealot/Hound of Grislebrand.

In the decks that ran 4 SW, didnt we run a lot more land to support Thundermaw and Falkenwrath?

My main concern with 4 is just that you only have 21 lands as it is. If it works it works and I'll gladly test it but it was something that stood out to me.
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Postby Valdarith » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:03 am

Wow 4 Lightning bezerker huh, any special reason behind that? Higher than normal
Remember when we started running 2 Stonewright in RTR/INN RDW, then went to 3, then later 4?

Well, turns out Lightning Berserker is actually better. He doesn't require Soulbond to pump (though this was sometimes actually an upside) and he can be dashed in.

I think if you aren't going to run FSD or Firedrinker Satyr you pretty much have to run 4 Berserker. I happen to be on the 10+ one drop side of the argument though. In LP's list 4 Berserker also plays well with Flamewake Phoenix.

A note on mana: why not run Foundry of the Consuls past 20 Mountains?
Oh the memories with Stonewright and Ash Zealot/Hound of Grislebrand.

In the decks that ran 4 SW, didnt we run a lot more land to support Thundermaw and Falkenwrath?

My main concern with 4 is just that you only have 21 lands as it is. If it works it works and I'll gladly test it but it was something that stood out to me.
Yes, but keep in mind that the extra lands we were running were either black sources or Hellion Crucibles. The red mana count was always 20-21.
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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:07 am

Did some research on the pilot of the 16th place Big Red deck, Shane Campbell.
Turns out the guy top8'd a 5k two months ago with almost the same exact deck.
I think he might be on to something for those of us looking to go a little bigger.

I was thinking maybe cut some Dragon Fodder for Hangerback Walkers. Thoughts?


Heres the Scg CHI list 16th

[deck]
Creatures (15)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (26)
20 Mountain
2 Foundry of the Consuls
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon

Spells (17)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Dragon Fodder
2 Hordeling Outburst
3 Roast

Sideboard
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Rending Volley
4 Wild Slash
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Harness by Force
1 Roast
[/deck]


Heres his deck from May 23rd

[deck]MAIN DECK
4 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent
Creatures [15]
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Lightning Strike
4 Roast
4 Stoke the Flames
Spells [20]
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
21 Mountain
Lands [25]
SIDEBOARD
2 Arc Lightning
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Harness by Force
2 Rending Volley
3 Searing Blood
3 Wild Slash[/deck]


Hmm not sure why deck tags arent working
Last edited by dpaine88 on Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:10 am

Ok I trust you about the mana. I will have to give LP's list a shot on cockatrice tonight.
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Postby Purp » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:26 am

Sitting 2-0, I really want the 22nd land. Seen to many 1 landers, and not hitting a turn 3 land as much as I'd like.
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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:32 am

Sitting 2-0, I really want the 22nd land. Seen to many 1 landers, and not hitting a turn 3 land as much as I'd like.
You running LP's deck?
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Postby NotARobot » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:34 am

Been playing with hangerback walker a lot today, seems insanely strong and can slot into quite a few decks. Could easily turn on shrapnel blasts as well if we wanted to move in that direction. Have you guys tried it at all?

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:47 am

What don't you like about the SB purp?
I dislike having 6 weak cards vs control, and only 3 cards to bring in. UB players at my store have 8-10 cards for the matchup.
Remember the deck has EIGHT prowess guys so the titan's strengths and wild slashes are actually pulling more weight the then printed text on the individual cards. They do ton's of things like saving guys from bile blight and drown in sorrow and they keep the curve low which is what you want, especially since you're bringing in outpost siege.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Purp » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:57 am

finished 2-2. Beat Esper and GW elves. Lost to UB (he sides in 10 cards, murklurker is tough) and Mono Red, hall of triupmh is good with all his tokens.

Played LPs list with this SB

[deck]
3 Eidolon
3 Firedancer
4 Roast
3 Outpost Siege
2 Scouring Sands
[/deck]

Deck runs fine. Titan's Str wasn't terrible, but it was ok. Do you EVER side it out?

I noticed this with my matchup on friday, tokens from RDW can be a real pain. I'm trying not to worry too much about Hall, but if that starts seeing more play for mirror matches, I'd be worried.

Luckily, my LGS is hosting Regionals next weekend, so I atleast have some idea about what the popular decks will be.

LP, how do you sb for the RDW matchup?

I think I feel comfortable cutting firedancer, the matches it shines, are just not prevalent enough right now.

I think the MD is fine to run with, although I really missed magma jet (I just think it's so strong post board), SB i think needs work, but I am not sure what cards make it better.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:22 am

For RDW, I bring in Twin bolt and Scouring sands(you can play arc lighting over twin bolt if you expect lots of rabblemasters) and I take out Titan's strength. For the last 3, it can be any combination of things, though I usually go with some combination of stoke/firecraft since they're expensive terrible spot removal(which is more important then player removal in the matchup).
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Purp » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:29 am

fyi - standard gods out of japan got posted:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/category/detail/1414
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/category/detail/1417

it was won by goblins i believe.

interesting red/green burn deck (top 16)

[deck]
12 mountain
1 forest
4 wooded foot hills
4 temple of abandon


4 Swiftspear
4 Abbot
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
3 pia and kiran nalaar

3 wild slash
4 atarkas command
4 lightning strike
2 searing blood
1 roast
4 exquisite firecraft
3 stoke the flames
4 hordeling outburst

SB
2 destructive revelry
2 roast
2 satyr firedancer
2 searing blood
2 anger of the gods
2 scab clan beserker
2 outpost siege
1 molten vortex


[/deck]
Deck looks sweet, do we think there could be anything there?

Found a video of him verse goblins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE3s8vY-b8E (actually goes to 3 games both players get land screwed in all 3 unfortunatly), this goblins deck went on to win the tourney, 2 hall of triumph and 4 oblesik MD is interesting.

There is also an interesting RW tokens list that was top 8, and a sweet Gb elves list.

[deck]
10 mountain
4 plains
1 evolving wilds
4 temple of triumph
4 battlefield forge
1 rw gain life land
1 foundry of consular

4 soulfire
4 rabble
3 chandra fire of kaledash
3 pir and kiran

1 wild slash
4 lightning strike
4 stoke the flames
4 hordeling outburst
4 dictate of heliod
4 chained to the rock

sb
2 wild slash
2 glare of heresy
2 anger of the gods
2 suspension field
2 banishing light
2 outpost siege
1 erase
1 valorous stance
1 elspeth
[/deck]
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Postby Valdarith » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:13 am

I like the tokens list minus the Chandras. I feel like it'd be better as Raise the Alarm.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:16 am

any way to translate the stuff on the site into engrish?
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Kyarie » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:11 am

If you use Chrome, it should give you an option to translate in the browser. Upper right menu area...

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:16 am

me and Dpaine played a couple games with the Big Red deck and that deck has mad potential.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby dauntless268 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:54 am

LP what is your thinking behind only including 3 Phoenix? The card seems so strong and as a curve-topper...
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Postby dauntless268 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:00 am

Been playing with hangerback walker a lot today, seems insanely strong and can slot into quite a few decks. Could easily turn on shrapnel blasts as well if we wanted to move in that direction. Have you guys tried it at all?
Have a look at the Thopter Burn Idea in next thread, Not a Robot, and tell us what you think
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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:53 pm

Purp clearly has something better than Google translate cause all I can do is laugh at the translations and how silly they sound.

So many good decks out there...so hard to choose what to even test.

I thinnk the RW Decks with Dictate are onto something, both the Jap one and the SCG CHI list.



Gotta agree with LP about the Big Red deck testing really well, although we only did a few matches where he played Junk Control and GR Devo.

I was thinking and the more I thought about the Big Red deck the more it reminded me a lot of the Mardu Dragons deck, except a little worse removal, but better mana and all untapped pain free single color mana.

With Esper dragons on the downswing, Big Red may be the way to go.
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Postby NotARobot » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:25 am

Which big red list are you talking about?

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Postby dpaine88 » Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:10 am

[deck]Creatures (15)

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Planeswalkers (2)

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (26)

20 Mountain
2 Foundry of the Consuls
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Spells (17)

4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Dragon Fodder
2 Hordeling Outburst
3 Roast
Sideboard

3 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Rending Volley
4 Wild Slash
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Harness by Force
1 Roast[/deck]
Burn baby burn!

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Postby magicdownunder » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:22 am

Have you guys worked out how to beat control with Big Red? It still seems like a HORRIBLE MU.
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Red Deck Wins post-Origins

Postby NerdBoyWonder » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:53 am

Been gone awhile but prepping/brewing for GPSD and this is what I am currently testing:

[deck]4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Abbot of Keral Keep
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Lightning Berserker
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Searing Blood

22 Mountain[/deck]

Started off testing with Atarka Goblins and hopped off it when trying out this burn brew. Below was my starting list:

[deck]RDW
4 Wild Slash
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Exquisite Firecraft

3 Chandra, Pyromaster

4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
1 Lightning Berserker
3 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

23 Mountains[/deck]

Testing against Abzan midrange and despite rhinos and life gain manage to pull through. Some games are impossible if they get double courser into Rhino or something ridiculous like that. Has had me consider dipping into Green for Atarka's Command.
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Valdarith
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Red Deck Wins post-Origins

Postby Valdarith » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:25 pm

Have you guys worked out how to beat control with Big Red? It still seems like a HORRIBLE MU.
In my experience with Jeskai, Ashcloud Phoenix is very good. Obviously Outpost Siege is great too.
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