Dies to Removal

I would worry about it IF tokens became a very popular, tier 1 deck. As it stands, Virulent Plague is not better than Drown in Sorrow, and SBs are already tight as it is.

It might push the deck toward anthems like Dictate of Heliod to counter if that card becomes popular, but I can't imagine it seeing play over more flexible answers like Drown and Anger.

It's definitely something I can see decks siding as a 1-of to beat token strategies as there are potentially a lot of them that are viable in the set. Having said that, I don't worry about it and it's not like you don't run enchantment removal.

RE Exemplars: What even postboard, your deck should be potentially very spell dense, and it survives all the board wipes that are good against the rest of the strategy plus the board wipes your probably boarding in if you play anger. Besides which, even when your boarding out your cheap burn, in those matchups your generally boarding in other cheap spells like negate, stroke and valorous stance.

Ran LSv list tonight, it was good. 3-1 finish losing a close one to abzan aggro. Wish it had more burn!

Is anyone brewing a jeskai variant for release? Double pptq weekend for me. I am either going to try tokens, or a jeskai tempo that is not much different from what I play now.

Abzan Control in our testing is still the boogie man.

I found the amount of burn to be sufficient vs Abzan aggro. It's one of those 50/50 matchups except I'd say we're slightly favored to even depending on their board configuration.

I'll be playing Jeskai Tokens or Big Red/x after set release. I imagine the tokens archetype will change significantly with Dragon Fodder and Anticipate being printed.

How do you plan on fitting Anticipate into the deck?

I'm not sure. I was hoping LSV or someone at the Pro Tour would solve that one for me.

I haven't been in the "brewing" mood lately. Rather, I've preferred to piggyback off innovations from players that are better than I am, hence playing the LSV list online and at the IQ last week.

If I had to guess, I'd say the tokens deck will look a lot more streamlined and less mana hungry than before. It could be more aggressive, but Anticipate tends to skew the deck toward a more combo-control role ala Splinter Twin, while Dragon Fodder makes it less reliant on turn-three RR if you straight-up replace Hordeling Outburst (may or may not be correct). Monastery Mentor/Goblin Rabblemaster may be ditched altogether in favor of only token-producing spells.

[deck]4 Mantis Rider
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Soulfire Grand Master
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Ojutai Exemplars

3 Valorous Stance
3 Wild Slash
1 Jeskai Charm
1 Ojutai's Command
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Dig Through Time

4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph

SB:
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Valorous Stance
1 Erase
2 Outpost Siege
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Surge of Righteousness
1 Abzan Advantage[/deck]
1 Magma Spray

wow this is almost exactly what I brewed up. I like this list a ton, I think the exemplars is a huge sleeper

LP or manabase guys... Suggestions on creating a mana base that is less "come into play tapped" base?

This is what I'm currently testing with for Jeskai tokens. The deck has been cruching it lately, I might want some number of Soulfire Grand Master and extra Wild Slash in my SB if mono red and other really fast aggro decks start becomming more popular post rotation. But right now the deck has an OK game against mono red and will destroy both control and midrange.

I really like the no creature spells as every none-land card in the deck will trigger the Ascendancy and it's more cards in the yard for Cruise.

Anyone else testing with the same no-creature style of Ascendancy?

[deck]Land (24)

3x Battlefield Forge
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
3x Mountain
4x Mystic Monastery
2x Plains
1x Shivan Reef
3x Temple of Epiphany
3x Temple of Triumph

Instant (17)

4x Anticipate
1x Gods Willing
1x Jeskai Charm
3x Lightning Strike
4x Raise the Alarm
4x Stoke the Flames
1x Wild Slash

Sorcery (11)

4x Dragon Fodder
2x Hordeling Outburst
4x Treasure Cruise

Enchantment (8)

4x Jeskai Ascendancy
4x Myth Realized

Sideboard (15)

2x Anger of the Gods
3x Disdainful Stroke
2x End Hostilities
3x Erase
3x Negate
2x Roast

[/deck]

I'm planning on it. I don't like Myth Realized.

I mean, I don't think you can play less than 4 Outbursts if you plan on going creature less, I don't think you have enough dudes if you don't

If I'm playing creatureless tokens it's probably:

4 outburst
4 raise
4 fodder
2 secure the wastes

I'm planning on it. I don't like Myth Realized.

My experience has been that it's great. It has "Prowess" dodges sweepers and sorc removal and really puts a strain on your opponents enchantment hate. Also it's normally a 5/5 or bigger after you play your Ascendancy so it's a respectible beater on it's own.

I mean, I don't think you can play less than 4 Outbursts if you plan on going creature less, I don't think you have enough dudes if you don't

I always found that Outburst was a nessesary evil before, it was expencive to cast and not really on curve pushing your big attacks back 2 turns. With Dragon Fodder you get the red creatures you need to cast free stokes and I'd rather have instant speed tokens to cast EOT and then "go off" on my turn.

If I'm playing creatureless tokens it's probably:

4 outburst
4 raise
4 fodder
2 secure the wastes

I have been looking at secure the wastes as a possible replacement for outburst. Allowing me to cut it and have more instant speed tokens and a more flexible card to play when trying to "go off" as I can cast it for X=0 just to get another trigger if needed.



I'm also thinking about adding Mentors to the SB for games where my opponent lacks removal but has loads of dudes, like the devotion matches. I feel like it's the only MU where I really need to have a lot of tokens in play to win.

I'll be playtesting the deck more and look over the numbers on my tokens to try and find a sweet spot where I have enough while still having spells tht impact the board.

[deck]
1 Narset

2 Raise the Alarm
4 Dragon Fodder
3 Secure the Waste
3 Hordeling Outburst

4 Jeskai Ascendancy

4 Stoke
3 Wild Slash
3 Lightning Strike (could cut 1 and add a roast)

1 Valorous Stance
1 Disdainful Stroke

3 Anticipate
4 Treasure Cruise

24 lands

Sb
2 Sarkhan
1 Narset
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Erase
2 Negate
3 Surge of Righteousness
1 End Hostilities
2 Glare
[/deck]

List seems all over the place. You definitely want four Raise the Alarm as the instant speed is huge, especially postboard when you're bringing in Negate and/or Disdainful Stroke. I'd rather run the second Valorous Stance over the first Disdainful Stroke too. Narset walker seems winmore in this deck too but warrants testing.

I have been doing a lot of testing (our group is going to invitational this weekend, Im staying for pptqs). Secure is better post board. The worst matchup is (and by worst i mean toughest) is abzan decks (which are all moving towards fleecemane lion in the main), I want access to 4 disdainful strokes as the deck is really soft to elspeth. Valorous Stance kills everything Stroke counters, so i like have insurance vs a G1 eslpeth, stormbreath dragon. Not sure what else is all over the place.

[deck]
24 lands

4 dragon fodder
3 raise
2 secure
3 outburst

1 jeskai charm
3 wild slash
2 lightning strike
4 stoke

2 valorous stance

4 asc
4 cruise

4 anticipate

SB
3 stroke
3 negate
2 Dragonlord Ojitai card is insane vs UB and Abzan
1 erase
1 glare
3 surge of righteousness

2 open slots - could be 1 end hostitlies, 1 radiant purge, 1/2 anger, roast, 1 mor erase

[/deck]

4th anticipate is flex.

Looks better. I'm not sure if 3 or 4 Anticipate is correct. My gut says three but I'll need to test. Maybe you just want to find Ascendancy that badly? Guess we'll find out.

I will say that if you plan to run 4 Anticipate, you could go down to 23 lands. Might even be able to do that on 3, especially now that the curve is lower.

My Current List:

[deck]2 Soulfire Grandmaster
4 Raise the Alarm
3 Dragon Fodder
3 Hordeling Outburst
2 Secure the Wastes
1 Dragonlord Ojutai

4 Jeskai Ascendancy

4 Stoke the Flames
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Lightning Strike
3 Wild Slash
2 Valorous Stance
1 Jeskai Charm

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Epiphany
2 Battlefield Forge
3 Shivan Reaf[/deck]

Sideboard's up in the air. All I know is that you probably want to build it to beat mono-red, rabblemaster in general, and all forms of abzan.

Also, anticipate is fine, my neglecting of it is just a nod towards being more proactive. My deck kills faster game 1 without anticipate, but it's definitely less good in postboard games. If I where to add it, I would cut a slash, a mountain, Ojutai, and maybe a stance or dragon fodder. The jeskai charm is totally cuttable as well.

For your consideration given that people are really starting to hate on Rabblemaster and red aggro is very likely to be a thing, especially early on:

[deck]
Creatures
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Mantis Rider
3 Seeker of the Way
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent

Spells
2 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Valorous Stance
4 Wild Slash

Planeswalkers
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Narset Transcendent

Land
1 Mountain
1 Island
3 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Shivan Reef
3 Battlefield Forge

Sideboard
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Erase
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Narset Transcendent
2 Negate
[/deck]

So I took my Tokens to FNM this friday to try out the new cards. Overall I was very, very happy with the deck. I ended up going 3-0-1 due to a very slow opponent game 1 that was new to his B/G constellation deck. With another 5 min I would have won that game, and I only lost g2 due to mana issues. After that I got to play U/B control that was a super easy 2-0. Next was a mirror against Jeskai tokens. My opponen was playing Mentors/SGM build and lost due to it. I was better at triggering ascendancy and burning his cratures for tempo, another easy 2-0. The I played Sultai control the games where longer due to his charms hitting my enchantments but in the end I won the games rather simply 2-0.

The deck is super solid and consistent. Able to both win quick and grind long games. And against control I think it's the best deck in the format. Your just a better control deck post-SB. I even manage to outgrind a resolved Ugin g1 vs Sultai.





[deck] Land (24)

3 Battlefield Forge
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
1 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Epiphany
3 Temple of Triumph

Instant (18)

3 Anticipate
1 Jeskai Charm
3 Lightning Strike
1 Secure the Wastes
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Wild Slash

Sorcery (9)

3 Dragon Fodder
2 Hordeling Outburst
4 Treasure Cruise

Enchantment (9)

4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Myth Realized
1 Outpost Seige

Sideboard (15)

3 Anger of the Gods
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Erase
3 Negate
1 Impact Tremors[/deck]

Your analysis of the control matchups is accurate. It's very hard to lose if you've constructed your 75 properly.

Conceeded a buddy into a pptq top 8 yesterday playing mono red (meant a lot more to him than me, plus it was favorable matchups...he went on to win it[played UB...anticipate is too good]).

Lost in todays PPTQ top8. Played A variation of jevin jones list from Invitational...deck was sick.

Next edition of the deck after looking at the Invi and Open results:

[deck]Jeskai[/deck]

[deck]
Creatures (2)
2 Soulfire Grand Master

Spells (35)
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Wild Slash
2 Anticipate
4 Raise the Alarm
3 Dragon Fodder
3 Lightning Strike
1 Valorous Stance
1 Roast
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Outpost Siege
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Treasure Cruise

Lands (23)
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mystic Monastery
3 Shivan Reef
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Erase
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Valorous Stance
1 Roast
2 Twin Bolt
3 Negate
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Outpost Siege
1 Keranos, God of Storms
[/deck]

This is what I've been testing for the past couple of days. Either two or three Anticipate is correct. I tested three and have gone down to two because there were times where hands with Anticipate were a bit slow against aggro decks. I also went from one Soulfire Grand Master to two. I was initially testing a singleton to see its impact in this new build and with the curve being lower now you get to buyback spells a lot more often. The lifegain off burn spells is also great in aggro matchups so I decided to go up to two. It also has the upside of sometimes drawing Bile Blights away from your tokens postboard when you lead with it. The rest of the deck feels great. I have yet to test Keranos out of the board but I expect him to be good against decks leaning on Reclamation Sage and Sultai Charm to get rid of our enchantments. The only real concern is what to do against Virulent Plague. I don't think decks have enough room to run more than one in their board, and I'm willing to lose to one-ofs, but if I'm wrong and the meta warps toward token strategies I can see multiples of these in sideboards which really hoses this deck. The only real answer to it besides bringing in narrow answers like Erase (which might be dead if they don't play Plague) is to put Outpost Siege on Dragons and burn them out.

You should really test out Dragon Ojutai. Card is insane.

I'm considering it, but have to go through the theory crafting in my head first regarding why it would be better than other cards.

Also, the counter I'm looking for to Virulent Plague may be Dictate of Heliod.

I am almost positive that one Dragonlord will replace a Stormbreath in my deck. The hexproof is quite valuable if I need to use him as a blocker.

You will want more than one.

Ojutai is simply much better then something like outpost siege fwiw in postboard games as it both works well with ascendancy and doesn't flip disdainful stroke for infinite sadness.

Ojutai is simply much better then something like outpost siege fwiw in postboard games as it both works well with ascendancy and doesn't flip disdainful stroke for infinite sadness.

Based on my experience I'm not worried about the nonbo with counterspells and Outpost Siege. I have NEVER lost a game where I've resolved Outpost Siege and it stuck for two turns. There's no difference between flipping a Disdainful Stroke and your 10th land, so your point is invalid.

I've never lost a game where I have resolved Dragonlord.

Ojutai is simply much better then something like outpost siege fwiw in postboard games as it both works well with ascendancy and doesn't flip disdainful stroke for infinite sadness.

Based on my experience I'm not worried about the nonbo with counterspells and Outpost Siege. I have NEVER lost a game where I've resolved Outpost Siege and it stuck for two turns. There's no difference between flipping a Disdainful Stroke and your 10th land, so your point is invalid.

At the risk of throwing productive discussion out the window, this post is pure stupid.

Your post was certainly not productive.

For what it's worth, LSV is on the same plan re: two Outpost Siege postboard with countermagic.

For what it's worth, LSV is on the same plan re: two Outpost Siege postboard with countermagic.

Are we talking about in the new format, or do we continue to live in the past?

I ALSO played outpost siege and countermagic. I know what siege does. It's also known technology that forces your hand. I DID NOT say siege was bad, I said ojutai is better.

Context of games: depending on how your main is set up and the level your opponent is on, it makes sense to board out spot removal against tokens in general because there just aren't good targets. Postboard, the context of games changes fairly drastically. Ojutai not only has a decent chance of rulling the skies against an opponent with zero removal main, it synergizes with ascendancy in play(Magical Christmas land, but reasonable combo) and it's a game breaking threat that trumps there sideboard cards.

Siege just generates raw CA which is nice, but it's not consistent. Sometimes you hit cards that you can't cast without ruining your plans and other times you can't cast them at all(there's a ridiculous big difference between flipping a tenth land and a stroke, hence you're comment being worth ridicule).

With Ojutai, you sacrifice speed(siege being a mana cheaper is a big cost), in exchange, you gain a self-contained plan. Siege in play for 2 turns does not guartnee victory. That's hyperbole at best, folly at worst. The second time an ojutai triggers on the other hand does something like triple your chance to win as instead of hitting 2/3 random cards, your getting 2 anticipates which is fairly close to a dig through time, AND you dealt 10 damage.

There's something called "the danger of cool things" where people are attracted to the flashy stuff be it exotic plays or new toys. You(and khaos, and most of my FOS bretheren) have the opposite problem; it's like, fucking cranky old man syndrome. "why would I play this new card, the old cards better, I'm not even gonna try it." "I played 10 games, new card sucks, old cards way better."

MOST FUCKING FRUSTRATING THING EVER. It's like everytime a set rotates, I feel like I'm exploring the new format and experimenting with shit, some good, lots of bad, and everyone else has the cards they love that they're gonna force, or just do nothing, and it's like pulling teeth trying to convince people to evolve. I don't even know why I care. But I clearly do which leads to lots of aggravation on my part.

I'm also going to sleep now and it's currently 5 am. Will be back in...8-12 hours.

Yeah, you could use the sleep. You're overreacting.