Modern Gauntlet

Discussions about the Modern format

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Postby Mcdonalds » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:11 am

So I literally don't play this format, but given it's the ptq season, I kinda have to if I want to play in a ptq for the next few months

If I were to build a testing gauntlet, would you include the following?

Twin (RUG/UR)
UWR Control
Affinity
Scapeshift
Melira Pod
RDW
Tron*

*if you were to include it, what version?

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Postby Jack » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:19 am

I wouldn't worry about RDW. Definitely include both versions of Twin. RG Tron is still a real deck, but sees less play. UW Tron exists. And UR Delver is a bit more common after LSV played with it for a few weeks.
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Postby Blackhound » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:20 am

Add Merfolk.

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Postby Mcdonalds » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:33 am



People would play that in paper?

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:41 am

Your Gauntlet Should Be:

Melira Pod
Affinity
Jund
UR Tempo Twin
Tron/Scapeshift
American Twin(Mclarens GP top 8 deck)

If you're doing a rigorous sit down, testing session, you want your gauntlet to be small so that it's manageable and thus you likely don't want more then six decks. Moderns Obviously bigger then six decks so it's best to have decks that represent an archetyp once you get past whatever big 3 decks make up the pillar of the format.

Past that, you become an expert at matchups that you probably won't even play against like BW tokens, Amulet of Vigor Combo, Storm etc. This is why in addition to testing for a format, it's useful to play in small tournies every now and then and/or modo so that you're aware of what else is going on in the format.

Finally, once you play in your first PTQ, assuming you don't win, you get ACTUAL data about your localized meta. For this reason, it's helpful to
stick around and peruse the top 8 matches since the 7 losers are among your top competition for future tourneys and in constructed PTQ season, people tend to stick with decks for a while.
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Postby Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:10 am

A lot of people play Merfolk in paper, it's a fairly cheap deck that's semi-competitive. (Probably tier 2.5.)

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Postby Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:44 am

Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:10 am wrote:A lot of people play Merfolk in paper, it's a fairly cheap deck that's semi-competitive. (Probably tier 2.5.)

Give it some credit. It's better than you think.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

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Postby Longtoe » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:18 pm

Kiki pod needs to be on that list. Grinding against the pod decks is really going up your magic IQ because they have so many decision you will need to be able to play around.
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Postby Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:21 pm

Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:44 am wrote:
Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:10 am wrote:A lot of people play Merfolk in paper, it's a fairly cheap deck that's semi-competitive. (Probably tier 2.5.)

Give it some credit. It's better than you think.

I played Merfolk a lot. It's not really that good. The only really good thing to come from playing the deck is having a full set of Remands.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:39 pm

I respectfully disagree, Alex. In fact, I think Merfolk is actually better without the Counterspells (at least, maindeck). Have you tried recent versions with Thassa and Master of Waves?
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:11 pm

Yes, the deck can't beat two of the best and most popular decks in the format on the draw. I don't want my deck to rely on the dice roll.

The new lists barely play Thassa, and MoW is just a "better" Coralhelm Commander. (Which was the worst card in the deck and was regularly replaced for tempo cards anyway.) I even played UB for Inquisition to keep my opponents off of Bolts and Electrolyze, but it was often not enough.

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Postby Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:14 pm

The deck would be a lot better if Mental Misstep were unbanned though.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:03 pm

Kidding me? I've beaten Pod and Twin easily with Merfolk. Affinity is actually the challenging matchup with the deck. You just have to use Vapor Snag wisely in Game 1.

Also, you can't compare Master of Waves to Coralhelm. You just can't.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:44 pm

I'm not comparing them, Coralhelm is bad and Master of Waves is good. MoW took Coralhelm's spot because Coralhelm was traditionally the "worst" lord. It isn't a comparison, they just competed for room and there is a clear winner.

The deck doesn't beat Twin that easily, at least not all incantations of it. RUG is hard, they can pressure you early, or even play the control hands and wall you out of lords. I imagine the straight combo versions aren't that hard, but they also aren't real decks.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:24 pm

Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:44 pm wrote:I'm not comparing them, Coralhelm is bad and Master of Waves is good. MoW took Coralhelm's spot because Coralhelm was traditionally the "worst" lord. It isn't a comparison, they just competed for room and there is a clear winner.

The deck doesn't beat Twin that easily, at least not all incantations of it. RUG is hard, they can pressure you early, or even play the control hands and wall you out of lords. I imagine the straight combo versions aren't that hard, but they also aren't real decks.

Your first paragraph makes sense. That's probably how you should've worded it, cuz I completely agree for the most part. Funnily enough, I preferred to play with both in the deck since the pips on Commander count for Devotion. I actually
think most people don't play him correctly - they usually just to try jam him out there and hope he "gets there. " Typically, the right way to play him is to vial him in, level to the max on your turn, and then swing for the kill.

I never had a hard time with the RUG versions of Twin. Normally it just takes a Spreading Seas or two to tie up their mana base and then you can walk past the defense. The pure combo version was harder for me because it forced me to have the Dismember or Vapor Snag. Spreading Seas didn't do much to disrupt the manabase after the 3rd or 4th turn. :shrug:
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:33 pm

Also, I'm not tying to argue with you, if you're taking it that way. I'm actually enjoying this discussion because it's making me realize that I possibly play the deck differently than some people. Plus, I like hearing your take on the deck. I didn't know you played the deck at all. I rarely talk about my Merfolk experiences since I have a Red Mage rep to uphold. :gonk:
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Alex » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:01 pm

I'm not sharking an argument or anything either, I just feel pretty strongly about my distaste for the deck. I don't know if you were around back then, but when Modern first came out, I was pretty vocal about my love for the archetype and tried really hard to make it good. I put in a lot of hours and tried a lot of builds, but at the end of the day the deck just felt like it didn't have the staying power that it needed to be a format-defining mainstay.

My biggest issue is that it was so easy to simply outgas. If you played against any deck that could deal with lords, you basically just hit them for two a turn and passed, which felt awful. Once you take a look at the landscape of the format and realize that the quality of removal is astronomical, you start to lose the wind in your sails pretty quickly. Affinity does a pretty good job of getting around this issue because it has a way to dump resources onto a super high-
impact card in the face of removal, which obviously makes it a pretty superior aggro deck in that regard.

My other issue was that while you COULD play mono colored, why would you? The format has perfect mana, so I had a hard time justifying playing a mono colored deck when I could just as easily play a deck packed full of stupid-good cards. Once I had my fetches I pretty much had no reason to stay on Merfolk. It's an alright deck if all you can afford are Islands and Aether Vials, but once you graduate from that your horizons should look nicer.

If Mental Misstep were in the format, you could at least dodge two of the tougher cards for you to beat (Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt) while still playing on curve, but unfortunately you're stuck playing dorky things to try and save your lords and that often just makes you the slower aggro deck.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:06 am

So you haven't played the deck since Modern started? Seriously? Why don't you play it now? The metagame is drastically different since Modern's infancy and so are the card choices.

I'm not even going to argue with the whole "why play mono colored decks when you have access to perfect mana" argument since that's not even relevant. It's also just ridiculous. The deck simply doesn't need to splash for another color (even though it can). And I'm not even going to discuss Mental Mistep because the card is banned.

Your issue is because it's easy to outgas? Sorry, but you need to explain further. The argument that lords "die to removal" is irrelevant. Tarmogoyfs die to removal, and so does everything else. Granted, the deck's 2 biggest weaknesses are to decks like Affinity, which features a much faster aggro engine, and to decks like American Control, which prey on creature based decks. Aside
from having bad matchups to those two archetypes, it's positioned very strongly due to its synergy, manabase disruption, access to counterpells, and its consistency. It's one of those decks that if it's not stopped early, it WILL win. It has inevitability.

I know you're biased. You said so yourself. You have a strong distaste for the deck because you sank a lot of man hours into playing the deck and, at the time, it just wasn't good. But the thing is, it is good now. Is it capable of beating the top 3 decks (Pod, Affinity, and Twin)? Yes (though Affinity is very challenging Game 1, but there are a plethora of great sideboard options). But, with that said, I wouldn't consider it Tier 1 because there are decks that do what Merfolk do simply better. That's a fact. But Merfolk by far is not a bad deck. To call it Tier 2.5 doesn't do it justice and it just reveals personal feelings and biases from you about the archetype.

Now this is a tough pill to swallow, but I've championed Goblins for a long
time and I love the deck, but I would rate the deck Tier 2 at best. But in reality, it's probably Tier 2.5. Why do I bring this up? Because even though the deck is capable of a turn 4 kill, I don't think it's better than Merfolk. Why? Because Merfolk has better synergy, is capable of manabase and spell disruption, and has a much versatile sideboard. For example, just because Merfolk can have a terrible Game 1 against a deck doesn't mean it will have a terrible Game 2. It's in one of the strongest of Magic's colors and it has a lot of options. Even though Affinity outclasses it in the aggro department, Merfolk has access to Hurkyll's Recall, for example. It has answers.

Reconsider, brosif. I wouldn't take the deck first pick out of my collection to bring to a tournament, but it is strong. Maybe it's just not your type of deck. I've always considered myself better than most people when dealing with creature based aggro decks so maybe I just see it from a different angle.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Alex » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:16 am

Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:06 pm wrote:So you haven't played the deck since Modern started? Seriously? Why don't you play it now? The metagame is drastically different since Modern's infancy and so are the card choices.

I'm not even going to argue with the whole "why play mono colored decks when you have access to perfect mana" argument since that's not even relevant. It's also just ridiculous. The deck simply doesn't need to splash for another color (even though it can). And I'm not even going to discuss Mental Mistep because the card is banned.

Your issue is because it's easy to outgas? Sorry, but you need to explain further. The argument that lords "die to removal" is irrelevant. Tarmogoyfs die to removal, and so does everything else. Granted, the deck's 2 biggest
weaknesses are to decks like Affinity, which features a much faster aggro engine, and to decks like American Control, which prey on creature based decks. Aside from having bad matchups to those two archetypes, it's positioned very strongly due to its synergy, manabase disruption, access to counterpells, and its consistency. It's one of those decks that if it's not stopped early, it WILL win. It has inevitability.

I know you're biased. You said so yourself. You have a strong distaste for the deck because you sank a lot of man hours into playing the deck and, at the time, it just wasn't good. But the thing is, it is good now. Is it capable of beating the top 3 decks (Pod, Affinity, and Twin)? Yes (though Affinity is very challenging Game 1, but there are a plethora of great sideboard options). But, with that said, I wouldn't consider it Tier 1 because there are decks that do what Merfolk do simply better. That's a fact. But Merfolk by far is not a bad deck. To call it Tier 2.5 doesn't do it justice
and it just reveals personal feelings and biases from you about the archetype.

Now this is a tough pill to swallow, but I've championed Goblins for a long time and I love the deck, but I would rate the deck Tier 2 at best. But in reality, it's probably Tier 2.5. Why do I bring this up? Because even though the deck is capable of a turn 4 kill, I don't think it's better than Merfolk. Why? Because Merfolk has better synergy, is capable of manabase and spell disruption, and has a much versatile sideboard. For example, just because Merfolk can have a terrible Game 1 against a deck doesn't mean it will have a terrible Game 2. It's in one of the strongest of Magic's colors and it has a lot of options. Even though Affinity outclasses it in the aggro department, Merfolk has access to Hurkyll's Recall, for example. It has answers.

Reconsider, brosif. I wouldn't take the deck first pick out of my collection to bring to a tournament, but it is strong. Maybe it's just not your type of deck. I've always
considered myself better than most people when dealing with creature based aggro decks so maybe I just see it from a different angle.

Consider this: Why would anybody ever suggest playing this deck over Affinity or UR?

If Affinity is tier 1, and UR is tier 2, where does that leave Merfolk, a deck that posts results even less than those two archetypes? Even mono red and Zoo, decks generally considered to be tier 2 make more results than Merfolk.

I'm not sure I'm the one reveling in bias here, Khaos. You think I unjustly labeled the deck and made it sound weaker than it is, but I'm just stating what the evidence reads.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:33 am

UR what? Storm? Delver?

I'm just saying that Merfolk is better than a tier 2.5 rating, that's all. It's a solid deck despite where it was positioned years ago.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Alex » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:56 am

Khaospawn » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:33 pm wrote:UR what? Storm? Delver?

I'm just saying that Merfolk is better than a tier 2.5 rating, that's all. It's a solid deck despite where it was positioned years ago.

Yes, UR Delver. I would only compare it to other aggressive or tempo strategies, since that's basically what it is.

Merfolk actually puts up less results than Zoo and Hatebears too, lol. If that isn't lower than tier 2, I don't know what you would consider tier 2 to be. Clearly we have a difference in definition.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:56 am

Alex, I know what's gonna come next : either we get really wasted and one us fights for the fishes honor, or we play some Magic, Fish vs whatevs. The victor will decide the deck ranking.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:57 am

Fuck the ranking system. I see potential. ;)
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Alex » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:58 am

That's fine, but it doesn't make my assessment any less correct. :sherlock:

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:59 am

Nor mine.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:59 am

Purple monkey dishwasher.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Postby Mcdonalds » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:10 pm

What did I just read?

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:23 pm

Verified; One pink purple dinosaur dildo
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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