Fire and Ice Mafia - Game Over!

[rcwraspy]

the things zem was condemning him (freedom) for were not things

Added (freedom) to the quote.

Can you break down those things which are not really things for us?

[Wraith223]

Imopen and freedom are both scum, we can only lynch one at a time Wraith.

Also freedom wasn't supporting doc hunting he was voting murphy what?

If you had read my posts more in depth; you would have noticed my point about X finding Y point that freedom does not understand. Iamopen2 is the better scum to lynch. Captain Murphy is a strong second. How the role will say whether freedom is scum or not. Last game he played pretty much the same. Passive comments or reads with a devil's advocate twist. Hard to read in general.

[Wraith223]

wraith, you're misreading again. I never supported doc hunting, and I never contradicted myself. I don't know if freedom is scum or not but the things zem was condemning him for were not things, therefore I doubt zem's towniness.

I see fate is failing to be a team-player this game too. lovely.

I'm fine with a murphy or a zem lynch. no one else at the moment

Last time you said I was misreading; my gut was right and I listened to you instead. Not happening again. Your reason to constantly lynch Zem in every game with poor evidence is noticeable now to me. You did make a contradiction with finding C.P idea of Doctor I.D. to be scum followed with voting Zem for being aggresive with Freedom for passively saying that C.P's doc hunting
idea was OK. You can't have it both ways. You think you are good at covering it up, but the contradiction is strongly there.

[Jack]

What don't I get? Who's x? Who's Y? And who is C.P?

[Jack]

And when was this 'last time' when you were right? Be more specific so I don't have to ask these questions.

And I never said that doc hunting was OK. I said that that comment didn't eliminate all possibility of him being town, but it gives off very strong scum signals, so I have my vote on him.

[Kazekirimaru]

Vote Count 4!
Girl, you trippin.

Stardust (0)
freedom (3) - Fate, zemanjaski, Captain Murphy
rcwraspy (0)
zemanjaski (1) - imopen2
Void (0)
Wraith223 (0)
Fate (0)
Captain Murphy (3) - Manders, freedom, Droppin Suga
DroppinSuga (0)
Manders (0)
rezombad (0)
(G_R) (0)
imopen2 (3) - Stardust, rcwraspy, Wraith223

Not Voting (3) - Void, rezombad, (G_R)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

Deadline is: 30 January, 2014 11:59PM EST

[imopen2]

wraith, you're misreading again. I never supported doc hunting, and I never contradicted myself. I don't know if freedom is scum or not but the things zem was condemning him for were not things, therefore I doubt zem's towniness.

I see fate is failing to be a team-player this game too. lovely.

I'm fine with a murphy or a zem lynch. no one else at the moment

Last time you said I was misreading; my gut was right and I listened to you instead. Not happening again. Your reason to constantly lynch Zem in every game with poor evidence is noticeable now to me. You did make a
contradiction with finding C.P idea of Doctor I.D. to be scum followed with voting Zem for being aggresive with Freedom for passively saying that C.P's doc hunting idea was OK. You can't have it both ways. You think you are good at covering it up, but the contradiction is strongly there.

A few things:

1. In DTR Mafia I tried to get Zem lynched because I was scum and he was town. Now I am town and I think he is scum. See the difference?

2. Thinking Murphy is scum for trying to give more info to the mafia is different than thinking Zem is scum for giving some terrible reasons to lynch Freedom. There is no contradiction.

3. If you want to understand my points against Zem's case on Freedom. Read my post in response to the case. I lay out the holes in his "case" (there is really not much of one other than "lynch him he is scum") pretty clearly.

I can summarize it here for you, though.

Zem highlights the following part of Freedom's post: "He
could just be a townie saying the wrong things, like I am."

What exactly do you find wrong with that statement by Freedom? Yes, he is playing devil's advocate for Murphy (and I disagree with him), but that doesn't make Freedom scum.

Then Zem says, "You can only say Murphy is scum if you think a veteran player would knowingly make that slip." This is stupid. If we just write off mistakes because "they wouldn't have made that mistake" then why are we even doing analysis?

Then Zem says, "You told us you were and even your last posts were scum posts." As I've stated above, Freedom hadn't said anything of the sort and this is a silly argument. "He is scum because he said he was scum. See? He is obviously scum! Lynch him!" This is entirely different from Zem's style in previous games.

Then the kicker.

Freedom says, "Tell me, what made you change your mind about
this? Why'd you go from "let's learn as much as we can today before we lynch someone" to "get freedom, NOW!"?" (Which is a totally reasonable question)

and Zem responds with: "SCUM POST DETECTED."

That is utter and complete oh my god you suck by Zem since Freedom's post wasn't anywhere near a scum post

You guys can lynch me, that's fine since I didn't really want to be in the game in the first place, but I am town and it is ridiculous that the other townies are allowing this shit to continue.

[( G_R )]

Wut? I see three wagons, three votes each, what are townies allowing to happen?

[( G_R )]

I'd like to hear more from Papa Suga and rez. That guy even show yet?

[( G_R )]

Out of those wagons I still don't know about Murphy's and Freedom's seems to be similar. I'll try to reread their posts soon to see if I can properly clear any of them. I didn't like imopen2's latest post, but depending on his next response I'll decide if I believed in the sentiment shown in it.

[imopen2]

Just saying, it seems obvious to me that Zem was scummy, or at least very incorrect about his analysis of freedom and only myself and freedom have noticed. Your thoughts?

[DroppinSuga]

Zem's posts in this game are screaming scum at me. In fact

unvote

vote: zemanjaski

[zemanjaski]

You were already voting for me you dolt.

What an asset to Town you are, more voting without analysis.

So imopen2 and freedom are scum buddies, cute, will lynch either.

[DroppinSuga]

If you were talking to me, you are incorrect sir.

[zemanjaski]

imopen and freedom have the strongest scum vibes from that whole wagon, they are the two to watch

DING! They're one of the scum teams

[zemanjaski]

Imopen and freedom are both scum, we can only lynch one at a time Wraith.

THIS

[zemanjaski]

There could be a bit of town motivation. He could just be a townie saying the wrong things, like I am. He could even be the doctor. But calling him scum is a good way to get more information from him.

Unvote, vote Freedom

You were asking for it with this post. Scum no. 1 found. All aboard the wagon. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

No. All he is saying is that
he is a townie who is saying the wrong things. What is scummy about that?

Its what he is implying - he is attempting to create an understanding where his own future scum slips are just "him accidentally saying something scummy". There's no need to add that detail, except for his own benefit in the future. That addition ONLY benefits Freedom. It is also WAY too self aware - Freedom attracted a lot of heat in DTR-mafia for saying scummy things, and has even made comment on that in this game, yet here he is trying to use that to deflect future attention.

You can only say Murphy is scum if you think a veteran player would knowingly make that slip. Don't buy it.

Freedom is the lynch, go.

You can copy and paste from my post above.

Lynch!

Why are you
in such a hurry? I haven't seen anything scummy from freedom yet.

That's because you're his scum buddy.

No point to rush until I know who is scum. You told us you were and even your last posts were scum posts. Now that the direction is clear I can lynch with no fear.

Hang.

He said nothing of the sort. You're making things up.

Seriously? Of course he didn't actually come out and say "I am scum". Why are you buddying and defending him so hard? You don't defend other players like this. Why answer all of my allegations on his behalf? Why not let him speak for himself?

Freedom and imopen2 sitting in a tree, K I S S I N G

game will only go a few days so rushing to a day 1 lynch doesn't appeal to me.

Tell me, what made you change your mind about this? Why'd you go from "let's learn as much as we can today before we lynch someone" to "get freedom, NOW!"?

SCUM POST DETECTED

You've got to be kidding me. OMGUS.

Unvote

Vote: Zem

How does it feel to be mafia for the first time?

I wouldn't know, still Vanilla Town here. Explain the OMGUS comment? I assume you're just using it incorrectly. What's
actually happening here is that you're OMGUSing me on behalf of your scum buddy.

Freedom's post is extremely scummy. He knows exactly why I would change my vote and behavior - because I think he is scum. Notice how since attracting my attention his style of posting has changed to defensive? Notice how now all you want to do is look at me and defend Freedom? You're even voting for me to try and dissuade people going after your scum buddy. It isn't going to work.

You've not even made a case on me, which is the apex of hilarity. You just don't like that I am going after Freedom. If I were scum, would I really try this hard to openly kill another player? Your logic is so flawed and you should let Freedom talk for himself. One of you is getting lynched today though, so you may as well kiss the other goodbye.

[zemanjaski]

Town
freedom
Wraith
Manders
imopen2
Null
Stardust
GR
Fate
Suga
raspy
Void
rez
Scum
zem
Murphy

The person that suspects me MUST BE SCUM.

[zemanjaski]

Just saying, it seems obvious to me that Zem was scummy, or at least very incorrect about his analysis of freedom and only myself and freedom have noticed. Your thoughts?

OH LOOK MORE SCUM TEAM BUDDYING

[zemanjaski]

If I have learned anything from the games I have played, it is that I need to trust my reads and more aggressively push for a lynch - Stardust really highlighted that to me after DTR mafia. I correctly called imopen2 and hamfactorial as scum quickly, kept saying it throughout the game, but never really pushed for their lynch, just kept saying that they were scum. And what happened? Neither were lynched and both were scum.

I am extremely confidant that imopen2 and freedom are one of the scum teams. Imopen2's recent blatant defending of Freedom has only confirmed this. Go look through their posts and see how they actually avoid critiquing each other, only commenting how the other is right. If not for my stirring them up, they'd be an unaligned pair going in to day 2. There's our first scum team. Notice also how imopen2 is leading the case against me, so that freedom doesn't ahve to attract any more heat and doesn't
have to risk more slip ups.

We have three votes on imopen2 and three votes on freedom. I say we pick one, combine votes and get one scum killed today.

[Kazekirimaru]

rezombad has been prodded. He has 24 hours to respond before he is modkilled and banned from my future games.


I actually think I'll up it to 48 for Day 1's sake.

[Jack]

I'd say kill imopen2, then, since I knew pretty much nothing, and imopen2 doesn't have a 0% chance of being scum. Of course, the town would be best off lynching zem or Murphy, since they're more likely to be scum.

[Jack]

I do not support a vote on imopen2, but zem gave us 2 options, and I know that I'd be the wrong choice.

[Jack]

Remember how much Pie (the vanilla townie) defended me (the cop) in DTR mafia? I guess that meant that Pie had to be scum and I had to be his partner, right?

[imopen2]

[quote1=][/quote1]Nope, not scum. Lynch me, then lynch Zem, then lynch Murphy.

[Jack]

Zem, you have absolutely no case against me. For crying out loud, one of your points is that I'm trying to look town!

[zemanjaski]

Why don't you break down my case instead of hand waving it away.

[zemanjaski]

Other people are voting you too, thought about that?

[zemanjaski]

Remember how much Pie (the vanilla townie) defended me (the cop) in DTR mafia? I guess that meant that Pie had to be scum and I had to be his partner, right?

See, this is you again trying to draw on previous meta to push the notion that you simply must be Town; but you're doing it in a way that (as you have already hand waved away and need to address) will excuse any future scummy behaviour. This is exactly the same issue I took with you earlier, you should think about that more critically instead of just leaping to the conclusion that I am scum (since we are going back to DTR mafia, remember how convinced Rezombad and Pie were that I was scum, then I flipped Town after the day kill? Go look at how I hounded Tubehunter in Ragnarok mafia - you make
scum slips and I will be all over you. I never cleared you in DTR-mafia either remember; you act like scum and I will treat you like scum).

Secondly your own assertion is defeated because you're basically saying "this is exactly like this other time I was Town, so logically I must be Town!". Except it doesn't work like that. People are able to play similarly as either faction, but that you keep trying to assert that your Town because you're play is similar to another game in Town, is in itself, scummy.

Break down my earlier post instead of handwaving, if you dare.

[zemanjaski]

Zem, you have absolutely no case against me. For crying out loud, one of your points is that I'm trying to look town!

Even the tone of this sounds forced.

[Jack]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=176453#p176453:1tqvp49c]zemanjaski » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:27 am[/url:1tqvp49c]":1tqvp49c][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=176431#p176431:1tqvp49c]freedom » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:44 pm[/url:1tqvp49c]":1tqvp49c]Remember how much Pie (the vanilla townie) defended me (the cop) in DTR mafia? I guess that meant that Pie had to be scum and I had to be his partner, right?[/quote:1tqvp49c]

See, this is you again trying to draw on previous meta to push the notion that you simply must be Town; but you're doing it in a way that (as you have already hand waved away and need to address) will excuse any future scummy behaviour. This is exactly the same issue I took with you earlier, you should think about that more critically instead of just leaping to the conclusion that I am scum (since we are going back to DTR mafia,
remember how convinced Rezombad and Pie were that I was scum, then I flipped Town after the day kill? Go look at how I hounded Tubehunter in Ragnarok mafia - you make scum slips and I will be all over you. I never cleared you in DTR-mafia either remember; you act like scum and I will treat you like scum).[/quote:1tqvp49c]
I'm not saying that my dealings with imopen2 mean that I have to be town, simply that it doesn't mean I have to be scum.

Secondly your own assertion is defeated because you're basically saying "this is exactly like this other time I was Town, so logically I must be Town!". Except it doesn't work like that. People are able to play similarly as either faction, but that you keep trying to assert that your Town because you're play is similar to another game in Town, is in itself, scummy.[/quote]
Not trying to use that logic (or lack thereof) at all. I'm not proving my argument here, I'm just poking holes in yours.

[Jack]

I'll get to your previous posts tomorrow, Zem. I'm going to see a few of the spoilers, and then I'm going to bed.

[zemanjaski]

Secondly your own assertion is defeated because you're basically saying "this is exactly like this other time I was Town, so logically I must be Town!". Except it doesn't work like that. People are able to play similarly as either faction, but that you keep trying to assert that your Town because you're play is similar to another game in Town, is in itself, scummy.

Not trying to use that logic (or lack thereof) at all. I'm not proving my argument here, I'm just poking holes in yours.

But you haven't actually addressed my argument.

Zem: you're
acting scummy for reasons xzy
Freedom: I am acting like that other game where I was Town
Zem: saying you're acting like you did in another game where you were Town is scummy
Freedom: I have poked holes in your argument!

Actually address the issue, stop handwaving.

[Stardust]

Manders has me nervous. Her two real posts don't really say anything at all.

Back to back posts from imopen and freedom. Both pretty lousy votes for CM.

imopen! Am I scum? Why did you drop my wagon? More importantly, why didn't you ask me why I thought you thought I was scum after this post? You're not trying to determine my alignment.


Fate says he's mafia and doesn't want to get killed by the other team. He even goes so far as to say, "truce Ice Mafia?". Fine, gambit or something (though we don't need the WIFOM), but zemanjaski votes Fate for it. Fate responds with the following:

No you misunderstand.

1. I didn't know the kill failed if thye both used it on a townie (never heard of that mechanic, usually its just scum are immune to each others? I skimmed through the set-up readings not my thing.)

2. I didn't want to be killed by either team because I have this bad record of dying N1 every game I play and never getting to contribute.

I think Z understood perfectly. You claimed scum, but apparently forgot that and explained it away with this post?
Fate! What were you thinking here?
zemanjaski! Why didn't you follow up on this?


All this Doc talk can chill. I'm the Doc, so you guys have nothing to worry about. I know what I'm doing.

Yes, but the inherent problem with discussing on whom the doctor can use the doc ability is that it lets the scum know on whom the ability won't be used, such that their kills can go off more freely (they now only have to worry about cancelling each other out, there is no additional worry about the doc stopping a kill as well). So the discussion does serve scum somewhat. It does also allow for us to decide on the most likely Town players, so that scum will probably have to kill off the weaker Town players first, which is optimal for Town. So I think it reasonably goes both ways.

Good post. I think between what you said and what I said, we've brought out most of the information.

I'm fairly certain that Murphy is our best lynch for Day 1, but it feels so strange to me to have that by page 4. In DTR mafia, that didn't happen for us until well after
page 10 when we tried to get raspy, and it took a few more before we lynched Pie.

"Can it really be that easy?" No, it can't. This post is a scum post. Ah, I see Fate caught the same thing.


Wow, this imopen post is pretty brutal. Scum regardless of freedom's alignment, I should think.


Pretty sure rcw and Wraith are town.

If I have learned anything from the games I have played, it is that I need to trust my reads and more aggressively push for a lynch - Stardust really highlighted that to me after DTR mafia.

When did I highlight that? Link.

Z, in this post you attack
freedom for self-meta'ing, yet do so yourself in that same post. 'Sup?


freedom! Please case zemanjaski.


tl;dr: imopen2 and freedom are probably scum. Happy continuing to vote imopen for the time being. Manders and zemanjaski have me a little nervous. rcw and Wraith are my solid town reads. Anyone voting for CM right now is either scum or dumb. Vote him later when he does something that's actually scummy.

[imopen2]

so when are you guys going to lynch me so that you can try to find some actual scum?

[Stardust]

so when are you guys going to lynch me so that you can try to find some actual scum?

I'm trying my best!

Why didn't you answer my questions?

[imopen2]

not sure if you're scum, didn't see that post

[Void]

Would someone compile the case(s) for me on the current wagons? The way it is, currently, is to muddled for me to grasp fully. TIA!

[Jack]

Murphy said he wanted to come up with a list of the best people on whom the doctor should use his ability.
I was acting a bit too self-aware and trying too hard to look town, so people think I'm scum.
imopen2 reasoned that the case against me is bullshit, and people are calling him out for defending me.

[Kazekirimaru]

bump