Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:29 pm

Dude, you called me a grandma with CRS.
Oh yes, that I did. Basically meaning that you'll say a bunch of stuff that makes a bit of sense, then BAM! From out of left field you make a vote that defies logic, even your own. I played a few games of Werewolf over Christmas with my family (grandma included). Not meant as an insult, just that I don't get you at all.

What about the mud slinging and the bandwagoning?

So, here's a post from Pie. In it he displays a heathy amount of what I've been calling townie rage. That's why I unvoted. His response to pressure was very townie. Would townStardust unvote if that post changed my read?

I'm not even sure how you can read that unvote as scummy, especially since I started a new case on rezombad which
would have only distracted from the Pie wagon. It was not at all clear that Pie was going to be the lynch. Here's a votecount from shortly after Pie voted himself. zemanjaski was reading him as town. freedom and Doc hadn't really said much of anything about Pie that I can recall and weren't about to vote for him until Z changed his mind and pushed them hard for a read. That's not the time for scum to jump off a wagon for town cred. Considering probably no one in this game other than me had ever heard of townie rage I could have just said, "Yep, self-vote, scum" and let you guys finish the job without drawing any attention to myself at all.
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Postby Wraith223 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:53 pm

Dude, you called me a grandma with CRS.
Oh yes, that I did. Basically meaning that you'll say a bunch of stuff that makes a bit of sense, then BAM! From out of left field you make a vote that defies logic, even your own. I played a few games of Werewolf over Christmas with my family (grandma included). Not meant as an insult, just that I don't get you at all.

What about the mud slinging and the bandwagoning?

So, here's a post from Pie. In it he displays a heathy amount of what I've been calling townie rage. That's why I unvoted. His response to pressure was very townie. Would
townStardust unvote if that post changed my read?

I'm not even sure how you can read that unvote as scummy, especially since I started a new case on rezombad which would have only distracted from the Pie wagon. It was not at all clear that Pie was going to be the lynch. Here's a votecount from shortly after Pie voted himself. zemanjaski was reading him as town. freedom and Doc hadn't really said much of anything about Pie that I can recall and weren't about to vote for him until Z changed his mind and pushed them hard for a read. That's not the time for scum to jump off a wagon for town cred. Considering probably no one in this game other than me had ever heard of townie rage I could have just said, "Yep, self-vote, scum" and let you guys finish the job without drawing any attention to myself at all.
True, but I read the rage as the scum aggressiveness.
You were last minute unvoting though. On the bandwagoning, you posting wanted lynch counts? Now you got me questioning my vote. :slant:
Zem has poorly responded to your questioning, and LMD could have been lurking playing when I re-read them.
unvote
If zem is town; he is going after you cause it would be the white whale for scum to take down.
If you are scum; Zem is just an easy target.
In both case Rcwraspy and G_R are big targets for nightkills. Iamopen2 could be lying thus I can't count him really toward anything beyond a voter. How would he know who is the miller to save Rcwraspy during the night?

I think the prudent vote is for Zem now, but Iamopen2 is a good vote as well. I will wait for Iamopen2 to respond before I vote for Zem.
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:20 pm

In both case Rcwraspy and G_R are big targets for nightkills. Iamopen2 could be lying thus I can't count him really toward anything beyond a voter. How would he know who is the miller to save Rcwraspy during the night?

I think the prudent vote is for Zem now, but Iamopen2 is a good vote as well. I will wait for Iamopen2 to respond before I vote for Zem.
What does my being a miller have to do with imopen2's claim?
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Postby Wraith223 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:24 pm

In both case Rcwraspy and G_R are big targets for nightkills. Iamopen2 could be lying thus I can't count him really toward anything beyond a voter. How would he know who is the miller to save Rcwraspy during the night?

I think the prudent vote is for Zem now, but Iamopen2 is a good vote as well. I will wait for Iamopen2 to respond before I vote for Zem.
What does my being a miller have to do with imopen2's claim?
He claimed saving you and sent the scum to Rezombad with bus driver ability. How would he know who is the miller to save you? Before we voted to test
your miller status?
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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:37 pm

Counting back from Dec 16 (end of Day 1), running tally based on what I consider significant interactions (offhand mention, indirect comments and inclusion in T/S list doesn't count).

http://diestoremoval.com/search.php?key ... sf=msgonly

zemanjaski/LMD - 1234
Wraith223 - 12345
Stardust - 12345678
rcwraspy - 123
imopen2 - 1
GR - 1
Doc - 1

in addtion, Z gets negative points for the weakness in this post.

If rez is scum, Wraith is town based on this post.

rcw's interactions were frequently grilling rezmo on things
no one else was pushing against. Town points for rcw (again, if rez is scum).

I noticed in passing that imopen's posts surrounding the dayvig aren't great. Will look into later. The end of this post isn't great either. And this post.


Results:
Lots of interaction: Stardust, zemanjaski/LMD, Wraith, rcw
Some interaction: imopen2
Little or no interaction: GR, DocLawless, hamfactorial, freedom

And the previous interaction work...
Lots of interaction: Wraith, rcwraspy, Stardust
Some interaction: zemanjaski (LMD), freedom
Little or no interaction: Jones (DocLawless),
hamfactorial, imopen2, G_R
Adding those together (and assuming rezombad's scum), we can maybe sort-of clear Wraith, rcw and Stardust. zemanjaski interacted with him a fair bit, and LMD had one detailed post on the guy, but nothing aggressive and there's that one super weak post I found as well, so that's still feeling okay.

YMMV
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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:40 pm

He claimed saving you and sent the scum to Rezombad with bus driver ability. How would he know who is the miller to save you? Before we voted to test your miller status?
I know you said you're avoiding the mafiascum wiki because you want to make your own reads, but please at least look up the power roles so you understand what's going on. A miller is a player who is town, but will investigate as scum to any cops who look into them (a cop is a role who, at night, can target a player and learn if they're town or scum). rcw is also unlynchable, a separate ability that means he can't be lynched.
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Postby Wraith223 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:03 pm

He claimed saving you and sent the scum to Rezombad with bus driver ability. How would he know who is the miller to save you? Before we voted to test your miller status?
I know you said you're avoiding the mafiascum wiki because you want to make your own reads, but please at least look up the power roles so you understand what's going on. A miller is a player who is town, but will investigate as scum to any cops who look into them (a cop is a role who, at night, can target a player and learn if they're town or scum). rcw is also unlynchable, a separate ability that means he can't be
lynched.
Issue- Bus driver claim he made would mean he only could switch the charactor for attack. He did not know that Rcwraspy was a miller at that moment/night. He could only guess. Rez could have been night killed without us knowing if he was scum or not. Iamopen2 could be false claiing a role. He won't talk anymore to prove this to us.

Do you think I am wrong in this theory?
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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:18 pm

A bus driver switches all things that would target those two players. Anything that targeted rcw would target rezombad instead. Anything that targeted rezombad would target rcw instead. It doesn't interact with rcw's abilities at all.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but yeah, it's possible imopen is lying. The main reason why I think he probably is telling the truth is that I don't think rezombad was a very good choice for the nightkill. Left alive, one of two things would happen. 1) He's 1-shot, and I carry on going after him as I was at the end of Day 1, or 2) He's multishot and he shoots me in Day 2. Either way the mafia benefit from him staying alive.

rcw, on the other hand, was a good target for the nightkill. Relatively active, confirmed town by his ability... so I tend to believe imopen when he says they were switched.

All that said, I have been burned before by assuming that everyone thinks like
me. I strategize assuming my opponent's will be doing the same, in the same manner. That's sometimes not the case, so I end up making the wrong call. Maybe rezmo was targeted by the nightkill and scumopen2 wanted to burn his hidden flip ability so he could make an awesome bus driver claim. Dunno. With only two days to go before deadline, that's best left for Day 3 anyway.
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Postby imopen2 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:37 pm

Wraith, you are obviously confused. I wanted to use my bus driver ability to protect a townie and redirect anything that targeted them onto a possible scum. I felt that rcw was te most likely NK target and chose Rez for reasons I have already stated. Rcw being a miller has literally nothing to do with my ability...
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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:41 pm

No comment on current events, imopen?
You said you wanted to lynch either hammy or zemanjaski; can you elaborate on that?
Have I come out of this smelling like roses, or are you a little scared I'm leading you off a cliff again?
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Postby Wraith223 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:55 pm

A bus driver switches all things that would target those two players. Anything that targeted rcw would target rezombad instead. Anything that targeted rezombad would target rcw instead. It doesn't interact with rcw's abilities at all.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but yeah, it's possible imopen is lying. The main reason why I think he probably is telling the truth is that I don't think rezombad was a very good choice for the nightkill. Left alive, one of two things would happen. 1) He's 1-shot, and I carry on going after him as I was at the end of Day 1, or 2) He's multishot and he shoots me in Day 2. Either way the mafia benefit from him staying alive.

rcw, on the other hand, was a good target for the nightkill. Relatively active, confirmed town
by his ability... so I tend to believe imopen when he says they were switched.

All that said, I have been burned before by assuming that everyone thinks like me. I strategize assuming my opponent's will be doing the same, in the same manner. That's sometimes not the case, so I end up making the wrong call. Maybe rezmo was targeted by the nightkill and scumopen2 wanted to burn his hidden flip ability so he could make an awesome bus driver claim. Dunno. With only two days to go before deadline, that's best left for Day 3 anyway.
You place to much trust in unfounded claims, but you have decent points.

I just re-read all the posts. Iamopen2 knew before that RCW was a miller cause Rcw adimitted to it before a lynch. Although, in a previous post, Rez uses the bus driver in a post as a giff, thus Iamopen2 could have got the idea to fake it. Further reading had LMD lurking more and not really contributing anything for town. Zem wanted to push this after getting LMD spot. Stardust is on
to something here.

Vote ZEM
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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:03 pm

zemanjaski, there are five people willing to vote you. Please claim in your next post.
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Postby Wraith223 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:03 pm

MOD Vote Count please
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Postby DroppinSuga » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:27 pm

Official Vote Count:
zemanjaski (3) - stardust, GR, wraith223,
hamfactorial (2) - imopen2, GR
stardust (1) - zemanjaski

With 9 alive, it's 5 for a lynch.
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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:30 pm

Suga! Prod Mogadishu Jones please.
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Postby DroppinSuga » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:32 pm

I just saw that when I was going back through Dusty. I'll prod him.
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Postby Wraith223 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:37 pm

Confirmed- G_R has double vote from MOD
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:18 pm

looks that way, yep.
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:20 pm

Z's at L-2. Please claim.
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Postby imopen2 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:51 pm

No comment on current events, imopen?
You said you wanted to lynch either hammy or zemanjaski; can you elaborate on that?
Have I come out of this smelling like roses, or are you a little scared I'm leading you off a cliff again?
I don't have further comment until Zem claims.

Ham: vote was for pressure. He's posting now so I guess it worked?

Zem: see above.

You: of course I'm scared of you. I doubt I will ever explicitly trust you after KNM. I just want to lynch scum
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Postby Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:55 pm

Why don't you want to comment until Zem claims? I'm trying to get you to commit to a read. Why are you hesitant to do that?

So you pressured hammy. What do you think of him now?
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Postby imopen2 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:54 pm

Why don't you want to comment until Zem claims? I'm trying to get you to commit to a read. Why are you hesitant to do that?

So you pressured hammy. What do you think of him now?
Because I don't trust you :P but mostly because I've been busy

Ham: I think his argument about Zem replacing in as one alignment or the other is weak and not well thought out, but at least he's posting. He definitely hasn't done anything to convince me he is town, though he hasn't done much at all so I am still down to lynch Zem if his claim doesn't feel right.
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:08 am

Ugh, I'm tired of repeating myself. Your text wall is full of untruths and questions I've already answered. It doesn't even matter. Lynch me first if you guys want to. I'm 90% sure we've got this game in the bag without any further evidence.
Note that this is the post of defeated scum.
I guess throwing up my hands completely isn't very helpful. I refuse to waste my time with you anymore, but I ought to at least point out the lies.

Your reasoning is additionally faulty because scum tried to kill raspy anyway* so he was already a clear target, before I pushed the test.
Irrevelant. You didn't know this when you went after rcw. Or maybe you did and just slipped. Either way.
No, imopen2 claimed that scum tried to kill raspy and that he redirected that kill on rezombad. You've accepted this as truth, as it needs to be true for the basis of your endgame analysis to hold up. Thing is, I didn't need to know about the bus driver before testing raspy's claim, as others agreed and G_R again explained to you (because apparently you cannot read) verifying the claim serves Town.

So what are you hiding?
Again, you don&#
39;t explain why it is scummy. I explained my reasoning repeatedly, which you continue to ignore (is that a scum tell?). If it is so scummy, why didn't you say anything at the time? Others did - DocLawless and Freedom both questioned me about it extensively. G_R was in on it too. But they're not scum right? It's only scum if you say so yes?
I did already explain why it's scummy. I also already answered why I didn't say anything at the time (Day 1, Z asked for my input then pushed the lynch to completion in about 4 hours). Then you go on to put words in my mouth again, based on something I've already explained (hint: everyone else followed you Day 2 after rcw full claimed).
Yes, and your explanation was bullshit. It didn't make sense, you need to try again. If what I did was scummy, then G_R must be scum too yes? As for the Pie lynch, it is out of my control how quickly it occurs, so to suggest
that I am scum because others act quickly is entirely illogical. You seem to be pushing me to a lynch very quickly, so that makes you scum right? How about some real reasons?
Just like you're pushing Ham to vote for me now, going so far as to bully him. You're scum right?
Here's a lie, flat out.
Ham commented that he felt bullied, so you're lying. Flat out.
That fact is SD, you made a huge error that you've refused to actually admit to. In one breath you say it is scummy for me not to follow the advice of other players; and in the next say it is scummy when I do. It cannot be both as you
claimed. What lies at the core here is you trying to control the narrative of the discourse, and I simply won't allow it. That's why you want me gone, because you don't like what questions I am asking. You're basically doing all of the bloodthirsty acts you accused me of, which is amusing in itself.
The difference is I never had you as town. Explain the bolded. You've been doing nothing Day 2.[/quote[

Nice deflection. You still refuse to engage with your own hypocrisy. You cannot tell me in one breath that I am scum for following others; then in another say I am scum for not following others.

Turning to day 2, I have spent it almost enitrely in defence of myself. Why?
- it has been the dominating narrative of the day. This is because we're the two most active posters and there are a great many posters who are passive and have been willing to watch from the sidelines.
- the holiday season completely destroyed the pacing of the game.

nI have done just as much as you have on Day 2, and at last I have asked others questions. If you're suggesting I am scum for inactivity, then you need to reconcile that with the post counts of the others, which you cannot do.
- its only scummy if I want to test rcw's claim. G_R proposed to do it again, but that's fine, as it is only scum when I do it.
Being intentionally dense and ignoring that I've repeatedly said it makes sense now that rcw has fully claimed.
Then why the fuck do you keep bringing it up as an indicator that I a scum? So now my testing of raspy wasn't scum behaviour? You're so fucking inconsistent.
- does anyone else find it strange that Stardust now considers Rez likely scum despite being the player who stated that Rez waas "95%" likely Town after the day kill? Thing is, Stardust needs Rez to be Town for her claimed "we can make a mislynch and still win" scenarios; she doesn't even mention the possibility that Rez isn't scum (which he won't be, 95% of the time). which misleads Town substantially. SD is the most experienced player and would be fully aware of how important Rez not revealing an alignment would be; yet no mention. We need to consider that Rez was Town.
Ignoring the fact that I was voting for rezombad when Day 1 ended. Also ignoring the fact that I did mention the possibility that rez isn't scum. Also ignoring the fact that I went into detail previously on rezombad's hidden flip.
Wow, here we go. You do everything but address
my concern. Everything you said is completely irrelevant. What matters is that you didn't even consider the possibility that Rez was Town when providing endgame scenario analysis to Town. You've just fucking admitted that you were aware he might be Town, so you chose not to prevent that possibility when providing your analysis.

I NEVER said that you didn't vote for him, or suspect him; all I said is that you've taken the position that he was guaranteed scum, which he clearly is not. That you're arguing about this, instead of just admitting a mistake, indicates that you're hiding something. You cannot risk the possibility of others thinking that Rez was Town because then all of a sudden your push for a mislynch on me has much more dire consequences for Town than you want me to realize.
- You've made multiples lines of argument that seek to silence or control my contributions
Bold words. Better find some quotes to back that up since as is this is just blatant smearing.[/spoiler]
Or you know, like I explained twice previously, your hypocrisy with who I can and cannot follow as decided by Stardust puts me in a position of not being able to comment without you being able to say I am scum. So that forces me to be quiet. Nice try though scum!
Well, if we have a cop that survives the Night, we're pretty much sure to win the game if we lynch scum toDay.
How? I think
this assumes that Rezombad is dead scum, but only his scum-teammates would know that for sure. A lot of us think Rez was probably scum, but we have to operate with the math as if he were a townie so as not to screw this up. Using strong language to state otherwise seems deceptive to me.
So why don't you care that Stardust completely glossed over the possibility that Rez was Town; which I remind you, Stardust originally said was "95% likely".

I want you all to notice how quickly Stardust's tone has changed back to calm now that she's starting to get her way. She doesn't feel threatened anymore.

@ Wraith223 - you're changing your vote to me because I am posting more than a player that had to sub-out due to inactivity? Really?
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:09 am

The scum team is Stardust + imopen2 + another.
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:11 am

Claim:

I am STARDUST, Survivor. My win condition is that I must survive until any other faction achieves their own win condition (mafia have parity with Town or all mafia are dead). I have a 1-shot NK ability.
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1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
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4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

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Postby rcwraspy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:16 am

Claim:

I am STARDUST, Survivor. My win condition is that I must survive until any other faction achieves their own win condition (mafia have parity with Town or all mafia are dead). I have a 1-shot NK ability.
WTF?

We lynch this, right? Not town, won't be town, doesn't help town.

vote: Zemanjaski
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Postby Wraith223 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:19 am

@Zem, My study of Iamopen2 failed. Stardust has raised great points. G_R has to be town to have 2 votes or it's a BS game. Rez was an unknown. Before Doc was replaced by a deaf ghost; he leaned town to me strongly. That leaves you and Ham. LMD was not adding much to the game as appeared a lurker or piggy back of coments to look town. I don't know what else to do?
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:23 am

Claim:

I am STARDUST, Survivor. My win condition is that I must survive until any other faction achieves their own win condition (mafia have parity with Town or all mafia are dead). I have a 1-shot NK ability.
WTF?

We lynch this, right? Not town, won't be town, doesn't help town.

vote: Zemanjaski
Just be aware that for reasons that will be revealed upon my death, Stardust is scum.
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1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
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Postby Wraith223 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:25 am

Claim:

I am STARDUST, Survivor. My win condition is that I must survive until any other faction achieves their own win condition (mafia have parity with Town or all mafia are dead). I have a 1-shot NK ability.
WTF?

We lynch this, right? Not town, won't be town, doesn't help town.

vote: Zemanjaski
Just be aware that for reasons that will be revealed upon my death, Stardust
is scum.
Oh...we will auto suspect/know this if you role town.
Author of Gunning for Tactical/Practical - http://diestoremoval.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2103
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Postby Wraith223 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:25 am

Were hell did the MOD go?
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Current Decks
Commander- Kaalia (Dega) and Nekusar (Grixis)
Modern- UB Faeries and Splinter Twin
Standard- Mono-black Devotion
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Postby rcwraspy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:36 am

Claim:

I am STARDUST, Survivor. My win condition is that I must survive until any other faction achieves their own win condition (mafia have parity with Town or all mafia are dead). I have a 1-shot NK ability.
WTF?

We lynch this, right? Not town, won't be town,
doesn't help town.

vote: Zemanjaski
Just be aware that for reasons that will be revealed upon my death, Stardust is scum.
Oh...we will auto suspect/know this if you role town.
He's not going to flip town. No townie would claim that. He's either what he claims, which doesn't help town anyway, or he's scum trying to claim something weird.
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:48 am

If you kill me and Rez was Town (he was Town btw, I am 99% sure), then you'll lose. Remember how Stardust never explained the consequences of Rez being Town?
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:49 am

My role doesn't hurt Town, and your win condition is to kill Mafia.
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Postby DroppinSuga » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:53 am

Official Vote Count:
zemanjaski (4) - stardust, GR, wraith223, rcwraspy
hamfactorial (2) - imopen2, GR
stardust (1) - zemanjaski

With 9 alive, it's 5 for a lynch.
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:54 am

Wait, isn't that a lynch?
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1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
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6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:55 am

Anyway, you should be able to figure out why I know Stardust and imopen2 are scum.

Enjoy.
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1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name

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Postby DroppinSuga » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:57 am

Unless I missed a vote, you're at l-1
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:57 am

GR has a double vote.
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1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
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Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
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Postby zemanjaski » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:58 am

You've got GR voting for me and for Ham.
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1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
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Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
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Postby DroppinSuga » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:02 am

My vote count is correct. Carry on gentlemen.
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