Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

[( G_R )]

Guys, IP is Arcadic. His cover is blown.

I meant everyone you silly bunny.

[( G_R )]

I'm saying that all these walls of text are bullshit. They're distracting and seem to me like attempts at looking all analytic and shit, while actually providing little REAL content to work with.

[( G_R )]

"GR is scum" <-- every fucking game of mafia I've ever played.

[rcwraspy]

at work today. Contracts Final yesterday went well, from what I can tell.

Will catch up and respond to questions as I'm able.

[imopen2]

Catching up on the night's events:

Pie is probably town for his white knighting of freedom.

Zem is still scummy. "Guys, I was town before and look how closely I am emulating my behavior!!"

[imopen2]

GR: can you give us some content other than not wanting to read what we've written?

[Stardust]

It wasn't meant to draw attention. I just assumed that people would read over it and possibly chuckle, and that those words would never start any discussion. Instead, people took it seriously and now I'm suddenly the most likely to die by the end of day 1. I guess it's better just to drop it and hope that I don't get any more votes.

Honestly, I was thinking of just sitting the first couple of plays out and learning how to think properly (I still haven't placed a vote), but I guess this can't happen anymore. In fact, this was probably a bad idea in the first place since, as you've pointed out, just sitting back and watching what happens is a pretty obvious scumtell.

Honestly, I am kinda flailing right now. I have more votes than anyone else, and Im not exactly sure how to prevent myself from being killed. You said before that it doesn't matter if you die as a townie. This happens every night. However, it does matter if people kill me instead of a scum during the day, because then the town's already two guys down.

I am town. I hope more than 6 people think this as well.

I believe you.

Unvote.

One question. Who were you referring to when you said "real town"? Even if it was sarcastic, you must have had someone or some group in mind.

I was talking more to wraith in the sense of town generally. I still don't think town should hold back. I am only in my second game and its likely I don't fully grasp how important power roles are yet; SD's post about cop's gave me some more insight. I have no idea how mafia sniff out
power roles, as it didn't really happen in the Ragnarok game. It doesn't matter though, I am not a cop.

What insight did I give you?

@Stardust: I didn't read your 'you are not the cop' post as 'I am the cop, you are not the cop'. Why does everyone assume you're counterclaiming?

That was my intent, and that's often how a counterclaiming post will look. Yanni counterclaimed my "doc" claim in Bioshock in the same manner. Regardless, it was important that I leave it vague so the door would be open for people to push me for the claim (as Z did).

Stardust: Feels town, dear god now I sound like I am
hitting on him or at the very least implying I date raped him O.O

Self conscious about the Pie-hitting-on-me tell? (totally not a thing I made up)



Okay, I told myself I'm not going after GR. Not gonna do it. That's your guys's job, okay? I can't do it.

...posters trying to waste time with analysis like "isn't it zem's second game? He wouldn't do that!" or even worse "he didn't play like this in Ragnarok mafia, surely his first game defines his style forever!
...
As for me explaining my reasoning, I do that in Ragnarok as well.

Using meta is stupid,
right? Oh, unless it's to prove you town, I guess.

I find it curious that people have jumped on me for asking obvious questions...

Did they? Show me where.

That isn't a pro town response at all. Hmmmmmmm.

This isn't a pro town response.

@Pie: if you read that series of posts by me (posts 23-26), you will see that the timestamps are all within a minute or so of each
other. I was literally stream-of-consciousness at that point.

Are you aware that stream-of-consciousness posting is a town tell?

You're a lot more experienced than I am at mafia, so if you're definitively saying there is no chance he is noob scum, none whatsoever, then OK.

Just because I am not voting for someone I cannot test their response? WTF man?

One reading is that I said that he should stop looking at me, another is that I am just saying that he should also look at others as well. You can't see the other reading? Doc had made comments to the effect of been a little unsure of himself, but after his last few posts I don't think he has any reason to be. So he can either start looking at others, which is good, or he can seriously come after me, which is also good. Only responding to my questions is OK, but he
can do better than that.

Z, is Pie town? You're very quick to trust his intentions.

Everything you posted later about Pie being unlikely to defend a scum buddy is WIFOM.

G_R - for the voting thing.
rcwraspy - I haven't liked his questions so far.
one of: doclawless, hamfactorial or LMD. Need more content from these guys.

Most of these players aren't posting much, so if they would post more so I can engage with them, that would be great.

What is "the voting thing"?

[DocLawless]

G_R - for the voting thing.
rcwraspy - I haven't liked his questions so far.
one of: doclawless, hamfactorial or LMD. Need more content from these guys.

Most of these players aren't posting much, so if they would post more so I can engage with them, that would be great.

Maybe I'm not digging deep enough into the thread, but AFAIK Raspy hasn't posted much of anything. In fact, the only question I can find that he's asked is "Zeman, is there anything you can do/say that will help us believe your claim?" (cited: Post 35), presumably in reference to your claim to be a day cop. Can you be more specific as to why you haven't liked Raspy'
s content? What, thus far, as he done to be anti-town?

[DocLawless]

G_R - for the voting thing.
rcwraspy - I haven't liked his questions so far.
one of: doclawless, hamfactorial or LMD. Need more content from these guys.

Most of these players aren't posting much, so if they would post more so I can engage with them, that would be great.

Maybe I'm not digging deep enough into the thread, but AFAIK Raspy hasn't posted much of anything. In fact, the only question I can find that he's asked is "Zeman, is there anything you can do/say that will help us believe your claim?" (cited: Post 35), presumably in reference to your claim to be a day cop. Can you be more specific as to why you haven't liked Raspy's content? What, thus far, as he done to be anti-town?

That said, I'm at work and haven't exactly scoured the thread for every single word Raspy has said. There may be other questions he's asked that I missed.

[Stardust]

I wonder where I got the idea So it would OK for you to do it I assume?

Of course. Gambits are wonderful when used responsibly. I don't recall ever using your gambit as a tell. Why so defensive about it?

Do you think you could "generate a scenario" where me trueclaiming cop is perhaps bad for the town?

Your motives are extremely suspect. There is no scenario where you can truly verify a cop (unless you'd care to claim neutral)
since the mafia obviously know whether they'd get a town or scum result. The reasoning that you'd like to ignore me for today is also scum motivated - wagoning a player who later claims a PR can often look bad and is a waste of time for scum since that player won't get mislynched. Clearing people as town is helpful to the town, but outing PR's to do so (especially early in the game) is much more helpful to the scum (partly because they have a target for their nightkill and partly because they know who they can't mislynch, like I said).

Add to that the awful vote on Wraith (immediately following my vote) and yeah, you're scum.

This seems important, so let's break it down.

- you're right in that we cannot truly verify that you're a cop (though let's be honest, the mafia would kill you ASAP and then we would know). That isn't entirely your use though; you're going to have to provide us with search results and explain why you're not dead and that's a wealth of information
for town.

I have not claimed cop. I don't have to do anything. With or without cop results, I plan to provide "a wealth of information for town" either way, so don't you worry.

- I don't need to lynch you today because of the above reasons, I want the info you making it to day two and beyond will provide.

Townies don't ignore everyone but their target. That's what scum do. That's my point. You don't just want to not lynch me, you want to ignore me. Big difference, and like I said later, proves that you're thinking of me as a target instead of an ally.

- I am not the one who outted a power role; you did by counter-claiming, or at
least seeming to do. I gave the mafia no information at all, you might have done so. Please explain this.

Nobody outed a power role. I have not claimed cop. You pushed to give the mafia information, repeatedly. That alone is enough.

- I agree that outing power roles helps scum.

So why push for the confirmation?

- Please see my summary of wraith223's posts and then re-evaluate your assessment of my vote on him. Please let me know what you think!

Your case is weak and after-the-fact.
"is this how you play Town?"
"You are Town right?"
"I feel my vote is as of now correctly placed on Wraith223 until he
actually starts acting in a pro-town way"
These are not words a townie case uses.

It doesn't matter anyway. My problem is not that you voted for Wraith. It's that you followed me into voting Wraith. You jumped on the wagon as soon as it appeared despite seeming to suspect me at the time and with nothing more than "Your posts are terrible".

On reread, I want to make note of the mindset in this post too. You're thinking of me only as a target, not as a potential teammate.

"On reread, I want to make note of the mindset in this post too. You're thinking of me only as a target, not as a potential teammate." Please expand on this, I would like to discuss this more fully. It is unclear to me whether you're suggesting I am scum or town. You are a target
honestly, in the same way that everyone is until I start to feel that they're town. I might not want to lynch you toDay but you're highly suspicious going in to day 2.

Let's say I am the cop. Let's say I responded to your pushing with, "Yes, I am claiming cop." What then? Do you ignore me, or do you work with me? Do you blaze your own trail or do you trust my reads and work them into your own? Reading your posts indicates the former in both cases. That's not a townie mindset.

I am suggesting you're scum.

PEdit: Hmm, and now you think I'm town. I'll respond fully to that post tomorrow. In the meantime, answer this:
1) What is faulty about my reasoning of your gambit play? Do you think I'm taking it seriously?
2) Other than that it's not targeting you, why is that one quoted post a &
quot;good post"?
3) Why do you say that I'll be highly suspicious going into Day 2, but you think I'm town now?

1. I don't think you're taking my claim seriously (which is good, its obv fake). I feel I have explained why your reasoning is faulty, please read my post. We can discuss this tomorrow after you've posted something more substantive if you like. Happy to discuss it then when you're fully caught up, and I have the benefit of not having a one-sided conversation. It's an important discussion point.

Read your post, still don't get it. What is faulty about my reasoning of your gambit play?

2. Its a good post because your asking players to explain their reasoning and tease more information out of them. Both players have made statements without analysis, your questions should force them to
commit thoughts that we can then work through. I feel that's pro-town,

How is this different from the way I'm treating you?

3. This is obvious if you have read my analysis correctly. I think you're leaning town (I didn't say you're conf town) because of good questions and high levels of interaction. However, you'll be suspicious on day 2 if you're maintaining the cop counter-claim. If you're not maintaining the counter-claim and are instead just trying to guage whether I am scum, then I revert back to my lean town position.

Why would me claiming cop make me go from leaning town to scum?

[rcwraspy]

As time permits I hope to be around today. My next Final is Saturday, and I'm at work today and tomorrow.

Conveniently you're the one providing the most content with which to hunt right now. Sure, you got a few knee-jerk reactions, but they're all fairly legit reactions to an RVS gambit like that. With the possible exception of the potential Stardust counter-claim - it will be interesting to see what he says.

What does the bolded mean?

I guess you're pretty pissed that I didn't respond to zeman's question too, huh?

@ Rcwraspy;

why does it matter if I'm generating heaps of material? I have nothing to fear. Tomorrow il be trawling through their posts to see what I can find. I don't think all those reactions were normal responses though, but ill deal with that in great depth ASAP.

Please ask someone a question.

For context, the "conveniently" line was directed at Zeman after he asked me to do more scumhunting. This quote from me appears at the top of page 2. Other than Z's RVS gambit and just a few people's reactions to it, there wasn't much content with which to hunt. Z said "hunt moar" and I said "sure - and oh, conveniently you're the one with the most content with which to hunt - let's focus on you". Then I left to take my final

@Stardust - Not pissed that you didn't give Z a yes or no at all. Power roles should be kept quiet right now, though I know you like breadcrumbs. I said it will be interesting to see what you say - in other words, interesting to see how you respond and what we can take away from it, not necessarily expecting a "yes I'm a cop" or "no I'm not a cop." Regarding the takeaway - so far

I'm not going to be on too much today. My first law exam is tonight and I'm headed in to study/take it soon. As such, since this Zeman wagon is building I don't want to miss a chance to unvote later in the game if it's going a way I don't like. He's getting close to a point where if there's 3 scum they could jump
on the wagon and end it quickly. Therefore:

unvote

The vote may come back when I do, depending on content and my reads.

From what I have read of theory this may be a slight scumtell. The theory goes that mafia are much more aware of where their vote sits than Town; because mafia are much more worried about wagon and hammer analysis. You do have a solid IRL reason for the unvote though, as well as the uncanny read that I am not scum.

Really? It's a scumtell that I knew where my RVS vote was after one page plus a couple posts? mmmkay pumpkin

RE: Freedom. Wow what a tell, but way too good to be true. Noobtown through and through - safe day 1 and likely day 2 also.

@Doc - a lot of what you posted re: Z's rationale is WIFOM. And you're reading far too much into potential drawbacks for one of Z's targets being a townie. If I've read what you say correctly, you basically say that Z is either town trying to lynch
scum or scum trying to lynch scum in order to ingratiate himself with the town, and that if he was scum lynching town it would make him the primary scumspect day 2. Unfortunately I've found that it doesn't really work like that. This is my 3rd game and so far whenever a town leads a wagon on someone who ends up flipping town they've not been a big target the next day. The reason, from what I can tell, is that each player just knows what they are and has no idea about anybody else. Town invariably get lynched, and often it's just because they make bad posts or do things that others take as scummy or give off vibes. Since multiple town end up having to vote for any lynch, especially early in the game, you can't read too much into it unless it's very obvious.

re: Zem. Honestly he's reading more "try-hard town" to me than anything else right now. I'm having a hard time lining up scum motivations for a lot of his remarks and questions, though it could be as simple as either trying to
appear the most town or trying to get people to sheep his targets.

@ whoever said my posts look like scumRCW's posts (can't find the quote, remember reading it in cursory read-through): As contrasted with my 0 completed town games?

@ Anybody - could someone post that trick to do an in-thread search of everybody's posts?

@ Everybody - I've done a cursory read and this post is an attempt to answer questions that have been asked of me (even though they're from a while ago). Obviously a lot has happened since, and I need to dive into it. /barn "holy motherfucking walls of text batman"

[Wraith223]

Got some good sleep last night and time to think about Freedom. I still like him for scum, no doubt. The subconscience just did not lie in that poste. Issue, we can only lynch one scum, thus why slaughter the known rat now? This is the fish worth throwing back for a big one. I think it's InflattablePie. Here are the postes that got attention.

1. I knew I was forgetting something. vote zem, if he dies D1 in his first two games, I'm going to laugh. and kinda feel bad if I'm being bad at reading him and he's actually town. The evil undertone is strong here and he knows Zem is cutting grass to reveal the bugs. Good job Zem, you have a strong Dennotzo vibe (NCIS)

2. if z is town I
guarantee there's scum on the wagon regardless. Starbuck could possibly be some scum mastermind, in which case we're all fucked anyway. imopen isn't reading as townie as Ragnarok, but I can call him townish for now. it's probably Wraith in that case.
We are all fucked anyway? Saying that our time and effort is useless gives the notion that you are either not interested in lynching period or are creating smoke for Freedom. I find the poor rules violation of refering to a past game an indication that you are giving useless information to support a save. Also, the Starbuck comment was nothing more than a fart in the wind. Why is it me then? All your comments are missdirection away from Freedom. Please explain.

*on the freedom wagon
zemanjaski (3) - wraith223, stardust, imopen2
It's really funny how all three of these players jumped ship to freedom, which due to timing, is the wagon "led" by their scumread. GR even ignores freedom but unvotes Z.
Actually, GR is probably scum here regardless of z's alignment for that one.
Yet you do not vote GR? I voted Zem cause he went a strong attack on a rational that made no sense, but it's the "yabba yabba" method. You can't argue with his results so far as freedom slipped worse than a first time offender. I was waiting for someone to give a an offhand "vote the talking head" and create false smoke for freedom and you made one very blantent move.

Freedom I am letting you go, but Zem is tracking you for now. Lead us to your friends, (unvote). Vote InflateablePie.

[DocLawless]

@Doc - a lot of what you posted re: Z's rationale is WIFOM. And you're reading far too much into potential drawbacks for one of Z's targets being a townie. If I've read what you say correctly, you basically say that Z is either town trying to lynch scum or scum trying to lynch scum in order to ingratiate himself with the town, and that if he was scum lynching town it would make him the primary scumspect day 2. Unfortunately I've found that it doesn't really work like that. This is my 3rd game and so far whenever a town leads a wagon on someone who ends up flipping town they've not been a big target the next day. The reason, from what I can tell, is that each player just knows what they are and has no idea about anybody else. Town invariably get lynched,
and often it's just because they make bad posts or do things that others take as scummy or give off vibes. Since multiple town end up having to vote for any lynch, especially early in the game, you can't read too much into it unless it's very obvious.

I'm only going to have like a gazillion questions to ask after this game wraps up.

[rcwraspy]

G_R - for the voting thing.
rcwraspy - I haven't liked his questions so far.
one of: doclawless, hamfactorial or LMD. Need more content from these guys.

Most of these players aren't posting much, so if they would post more so I can engage with them, that would be great.

Maybe I'm not digging deep enough into the thread, but AFAIK Raspy hasn't posted much of anything. In fact, the only question I can find that he's
asked is "Zeman, is there anything you can do/say that will help us believe your claim?" (cited: Post 35), presumably in reference to your claim to be a day cop. Can you be more specific as to why you haven't liked Raspy's content? What, thus far, as he done to be anti-town?

That said, I'm at work and haven't exactly scoured the thread for every single word Raspy has said. There may be other questions he's asked that I missed.

Nope, other than my latest post you pretty much nailed it.

[Stardust]

@ whoever said my posts look like scumRCW's posts (can't find the quote, remember reading it in cursory read-through): As contrasted with my 0 completed town games?

I believe it was Pie who said that. And, though weak, it's fair to say that you'd probably act differently as town, so meta reads aren't 100% unreliable, just a bit moreso than usual.

@ Anybody - could someone post that trick to do an in-thread search of everybody's posts?

search.php?
t=2064&sf=msgonly&author=rcwraspy

(Anyone can use this - just type in the name of whoever you want to search to isolate only their posts in this thread)

[Stardust]

I'm only going to have like a gazillion questions to ask after this game wraps up.

You can still ask now. Someone will answer. Or ask the mod. They can't help you with reads (obviously), but they can answer generic questions.

[DocLawless]

I'm only going to have like a gazillion questions to ask after this game wraps up.

You can still ask now. Someone will answer. Or ask the mod. They can't help you with reads (obviously), but they can answer generic questions.

Some of them are about plays and reads. I can keep those to myself for now.

[hamfactorial]

Jesus guys, it's really difficult to keep track of what you guys are arguing about with all these text walls and poorly formatted quotes. DTR's forum software is the worst, so maybe it's not your fault, but I've had to read from page 2 to here twice just to figure out who's arguing about what.

Regarding freedom, I don't think that was a scum slip, I think he was just trying to make a joke which was poorly received.

Some posts I found worthy of comment

I don't usually do this, even when catching up, but after playing a few mafia games where I've rolled VT, I've realized I really, really need to improve my town game, so I'm trying something completely different.

Kaze did this same thing in Ragnarok
Mafia, actively talking about the town things he wished to work on in the first few pages of the thread, then spending most of the game looking neutral and asking me questions. He ended up being mafia.

I'm gonna try and post this type of thing occassionally:

Read In Case Of Death (1)

---

3. freedom
7. Stardust
8. imopen2

2. DocLawless
12. Rezombad

4. Hamfactorial
10. LMD

5. rcwraspy
9. wraith223

1. Zemanjaski
11. G_R

If I'm NK'd, or if everyone goes on a simultaneous heroin binge and shank-lynches me, please refer to the most previously updated list if you have no idea who's scum and town and need a starting point. Thanks.

I like the idea of T/S snapshots, but I don't know what to make of it since there's no legend. Are mafia at the bottom? Are the
player pair/triplets significant?

Sorry about missing this post, have interactions with so many people going on!

Z: I don't see anything especially wrong with ham's play so far. It is a little surprising that he didn't comment on your fake claim, but this is his second game, right? Not everyone takes to mafia as quickly as you

Sure, but the way he reacted specifically is a bit iffy to me. I might be overthinking it, but I would rather start from a position of suspicion.

My comment about not thinking about who to lynch before the game started was in response to
you saying I would "only" lynch ham with a cop result. What exactly would I base my decision to lynch ham on other than your fake result? He had zero posts at that point...this is what I'm talking about when I say your questions aren't thoughtful. You misrepresented my position (saying that I would ONLY lynch ham based on a confirmed scum result) and then asked me why I held that position.

It is scummy to go into a game and already consider lynching people before they post.

I would lynch ham as soon as I felt he was scum. At the time of your gambit he had zero posts and at this point he has two I believe.

My opinion on him is null, like most of my reads, until he posts more.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I didn't mean to suggest that you would only lynch with a confirmed cop result; I was finding it strange that you thought that me not leading with the gambit in my first post was relevant. I've got enough info on this point now to satisfy my
curiosity, but please do ask more questions if you have them.

I thought your day-cop gambit was clever, but I was late to the party in responding to it. By the time I had checked in, you had already gotten into it with Stardust regarding the fake claim, admitted it was a gambit to draw information out, and seemed satisfied. After the great Ragnarok Stardust's fake one-shot SNAFU, this one seemed pretty tame. I asked about multiple cop roles to further my understanding of mafia, since I'm learning how to read between the lines in a game.

A few posters have asked for more information from me, so I'll see what else jumps out at me from the thread. I'm here on my desktop for another 30 minutes or so before I go into work, but then posting from my phone will be very unsophisticated. No multi-quotes, etc.

[( G_R )]

GR: can you give us some content other than not wanting to read what we've written?

Not what I said.

So far this gambit-then-wordy approach seems unproductive to me. Gimmicky plays like that are the reason I shot Stardust last time I had a loaded gun in my hands. I don't like them, they're not pro-town IMO. Looks to me like scum attempts to appear "townie" or just people setting up their meta for next time they're scum. No like-o.

So far I have mixed tells from zemanjaski, the person who seems to be bringing the most attention to himself. I unvoted him because the reason I had voted for him was something I read wrong. I already said what I think about Freedom. The other two players I'm looking at are rezombad and
Wraith2454873221.

Post moar, in less words.

POST REVIEW
At least one new post has been made to this topic. You may wish to review your post in light of this.

Ah, the link was posted already: http://diestoremoval.com/search.php?t=2 ... =Wraith223

[rcwraspy]

Just re-read Stardust's latest breakdown of Z's posting. Now I'm waffling on Z and feel less certain about my "try-hard town" read on him. Damnit Stardust, you're going to make me read a lot more

[( G_R )]

DTR's forum software is the worst

Pshh. It's not rocket science.

[imopen2]

@Doc - a lot of what you posted re: Z's rationale is WIFOM. And you're reading far too much into potential drawbacks for one of Z's targets being a townie. If I've read what you say correctly, you basically say that Z is either town trying to lynch scum or scum trying to lynch scum in order to ingratiate himself with the town, and that if he was scum lynching town it would make him the primary scumspect day 2. Unfortunately I've found that it doesn't really work like that. This is my 3rd game and so far whenever a town leads a wagon on someone who ends up flipping town they've not been a big
target the next day. The reason, from what I can tell, is that each player just knows what they are and has no idea about anybody else. Town invariably get lynched, and often it's just because they make bad posts or do things that others take as scummy or give off vibes. Since multiple town end up having to vote for any lynch, especially early in the game, you can't read too much into it unless it's very obvious.

I'm only going to have like a gazillion questions to ask after this game wraps up.

You're thinking, which is good. You just don't know mafia logic very well yet. Read about WIFOM on mafiascum and you might get a better sense as to why your posts about Z's motivations are flawed. Focus on his behavior and less on what you think he might do as scum or town.

[imopen2]

Had to spam the submit button to get that in there. Fucking A, guys

Also, wraith, it is not against te rules to reference COMPLETED games, only IN PROGRESS games.

[Stardust]

Some of them are about plays and reads. I can keep those to myself for now.

Please don't. If you're wondering why someone did something, it's probably something out of the ordinary. At worst it gives the weird thing a second set of (more experienced) eyes, and at best you get your question answered and maybe gain some insight into why someone chose to do what they did (which really is the core of this game, when you get right down to it). Questioning people and their plays is the best way to gain information.

[( G_R )]

Yo Wraith, what do you mean with the last sentence here (red bolded)?:

- snip-

@Zem, just talking
shit and babbling to just hear yourself talk is crappy posting at it's core. Why do you keep repeating yourself (crappy posts)? Not getting the answers you want from me? I poste anything these days and you call it crappy posting. Thus why bother responding anymore to scum, mental priming. "trying to speed the game up" is a classic means for scum to survive as town folks are at risk more when they make hasty, primed decisions. Looking at the opposite perspective, Zem could really be trying to get scum to slip up as freedom did. Will still be watching Zem closely.

This is my first game and do not expect special treatment. - snip -

but I am new

The bolded parts look weird to me.

I asked you questions you haven't answered. Are you really going to avoid them because I might criticize the answers?

Any post not worshiping your "briliiance" looks weird to you. D your own f'ing research to find out.

I somehow missed the question post. Ok, I can see you have never actually done any police work. A good LEO listens for the while, watches the first ones to speak, checks responses from others, and waits for evidence. No crime has been commited yet. It's still the first day. I would say it's a feel good session to make any big claims but...freedom. Yeah, not the brightest post. Generally, the loadest one screaming "look at someone else" is the scum. Letting the supstect talk themselves into a corner is nuub level interrogation skills. Your personality screams talk to appear the smartest guy in the room, thus a broad claim that scum hide in the shadows is missleading. The alternative is so overt; it's covert

We haven't heard from some in a great amount for analysis.

OK, you're frustrated town. Thanks I think you can leave the personal attacks for the clan thread though, I am very happy to take it up there or in PM.

FYI scum to hide in the shadows in mafia, there are lots of articles on it.

[pedit]Wraith, yes I am a lawyer. And I would disagree that talking gets you in to trouble. I don't work in criminal law, I am a commercial laywer so it is a different mindset. It's my job to get people talking and agreeing.

I think not talking broadly benefits scum. If no one says anything, then we'll never find them. Thoughts?

I agree with you that freedom now finds himself in a difficult position. An alternative for him to avoid being the lynch toDay would be to find someone more scummy that we can lynch instead.

I getch yah. It was calculated hostlity. I hate voting on Freedom for a squrew up as it is to easy. Freedom's post really made no sense to me and appeared as "i am smart to!"
in response to decent analysis from a few. It drastically failed...or it worked to pick out the thinkers for nightkills.

[imopen2]

That phrase stuck out to me as well but I don't know what it means. What do you make of it, G_R?

[DocLawless]

Some of them are about plays and reads. I can keep those to myself for now.

Please don't. If you're wondering why someone did something, it's probably something out of the ordinary. At worst it gives the weird thing a second set of (more experienced) eyes, and at best you get your question answered and maybe gain some insight into why someone chose to do what they did (which really is the core of this game, when you get right down to it). Questioning people and their plays is the best way to gain information.

What is a try-hard townie? Is that an official role or just a derisive nickname to someone who's being pushy?

Is it ever safe for a Town player to assume, in a 12 player game,
how many people are in Mafia roles? I mean, is there a standard formula for how many scum roles to fill or is it entirely up to the mod?

It seems very town for someone to encourage people to get out there and hunt scum. But it seems very scum for someone to encourage people to hunt in such a way that promotes paranoia. To say that you just need to get out there and start swinging in relative proximity to saying that lurking is a scumtell seems, to me, to be encouraging sloppy plays. Am I overthinking that too?

[hamfactorial]

Some of them are about plays and reads. I can keep those to myself for now.

Please don't. If you're wondering why someone did something, it's probably something out of the ordinary. At worst it gives the weird thing a second set of (more experienced) eyes, and at best you get your question answered and maybe gain some insight into why someone chose to do what they did (which really is the core of this game, when you get right down to it). Questioning people and their plays is the best way to gain information.

What is a try-hard
townie? Is that an official role or just a derisive nickname to someone who's being pushy?

Is it ever safe for a Town player to assume, in a 12 player game, how many people are in Mafia roles? I mean, is there a standard formula for how many scum roles to fill or is it entirely up to the mod?

It seems very town for someone to encourage people to get out there and hunt scum. But it seems very scum for someone to encourage people to hunt in such a way that promotes paranoia. To say that you just need to get out there and start swinging in relative proximity to saying that lurking is a scumtell seems, to me, to be encouraging sloppy plays. Am I overthinking that too?

There's a lot of passive-aggressive behavior in mafia games, in my experience. Try-hard townie is just a derisive nickname for someone who is giving clear town signals but not attaining the mythical perfect balance of "not town enough" and "too town". Get ready for lots of eye-roll smilies and
accusations of WIFOM in response to legitimate analysis. Pretend you're in a sorority house and it will feel more reasonable.

[imopen2]

Some of them are about plays and reads. I can keep those to myself for now.

Please don't. If you're wondering why someone did something, it's probably something out of the ordinary. At worst it gives the weird thing a second set of (more experienced) eyes, and at best you get your question answered and maybe gain some insight into why someone chose to do what they did (which really is the core of this game, when you get right down to it). Questioning people and their plays is the best way to gain information.

What is a try-hard
townie? Is that an official role or just a derisive nickname to someone who's being pushy?

Is it ever safe for a Town player to assume, in a 12 player game, how many people are in Mafia roles? I mean, is there a standard formula for how many scum roles to fill or is it entirely up to the mod?

It seems very town for someone to encourage people to get out there and hunt scum. But it seems very scum for someone to encourage people to hunt in such a way that promotes paranoia. To say that you just need to get out there and start swinging in relative proximity to saying that lurking is a scumtell seems, to me, to be encouraging sloppy plays. Am I overthinking that too?

In a 12 player setup there are usually 3 scum but I've heard of it being as few as 1 and as many as 5. I'm sure some of the more experienced players have heard of even more odd setups.

What are you trying to say in your last paragraph?

[Stardust]

Good questions!

What is a try-hard townie? Is that an official role or just a derisive nickname to someone who's being pushy?

Not a real role, just a derisive nickname.

Is it ever safe for a Town player to assume, in a 12 player game, how many people are in Mafia roles? I mean, is there a standard formula for how many scum roles to fill or is it entirely up to the mod?

Very likely 3 scum. Possibly 2 scum and 1 Serial Killer, less likely 3 scum and 1 SK. For now, it's safe to assume there are 3 scum.

It seems very town for someone to encourage people to get out there and hunt scum. But it seems very scum for someone to encourage people to hunt in such a way that promotes paranoia. To say that you just need to get out there and start swinging in relative proximity to saying that lurking is a scumtell seems, to me, to be encouraging sloppy plays. Am I overthinking that too?

Encouraging scum hunting and discussion is generally townie. Problem is, it's extremely easy for scum to say the same thing, making it a null tell overall.

You have a good point about the lurkers vs. active townies. Lurking scum are hard to weed out Day 1, and very frequently an active townie ends up lynched Day 1 simply because they made more mistakes than anyone else (for no other reason than they were posting more than anyone else). Don't let that stop you from grilling people for what they're doing,
but you're right that you should never forget the people who aren't saying much of anything.

As for telling people to start swinging being a scum tell, you may have a point. That's something I've never considered (might try it next time I'm scum ), but that's predicated on the assumption that the lurkers are scum too. I wouldn't recommend trying to tie people together too much Day 1, but keep this in mind for when we get some flips. If zemanjaski flips scum, we can look at the lurkers. If lurkers flip scum, we can look at zemanjaski, but I wouldn't work based on that until we get that concrete information.


DocLawless is town, by the way.

[DocLawless]

Some of them are about plays and reads. I can keep those to myself for now.

Please don't. If you're wondering why someone did something, it's probably something out of the ordinary. At worst it gives the weird thing a second set of (more experienced) eyes, and at best you get your question answered and maybe gain some insight into why someone chose to do what they did (which really is the
core of this game, when you get right down to it). Questioning people and their plays is the best way to gain information.

What is a try-hard townie? Is that an official role or just a derisive nickname to someone who's being pushy?

Is it ever safe for a Town player to assume, in a 12 player game, how many people are in Mafia roles? I mean, is there a standard formula for how many scum roles to fill or is it entirely up to the mod?

It seems very town for someone to encourage people to get out there and hunt scum. But it seems very scum for someone to encourage people to hunt in such a way that promotes paranoia. To say that you just need to get out there and start swinging in relative proximity to saying that lurking is a scumtell seems, to me, to be encouraging sloppy plays. Am I overthinking that too?

In a 12 player setup there are usually 3 scum but I've heard of it being as few as 1 and as many as 5. I'm sure some of the more experienced players have
heard of even more odd setups.

What are you trying to say in your last paragraph?

I'm working through Mafia logic out loud. Actually, as soon as I posted that I decided I was in fact thinking too hard again. I'm reasoning that it does Town no good to wait and watch to the point of indecision, but that doesn't mean everyone who lurks is scum. This is not in reference to anything anyone specifically said.

I've also decided that it's irrelevant for anyone playing town to try and be subtle about it. Scum knows who's town, and if town figures out someone else is a townie then nobody cares.

All that may a gimme for most of you, but to me it's new information.

[rcwraspy]

Good questions!

What is a try-hard townie? Is that an official role or just a derisive nickname to someone who's being pushy?

Not a real role, just a derisive nickname.

Is it ever safe for a Town player to assume, in a 12 player game, how many people are in Mafia roles? I mean, is there a standard formula for how many scum roles to fill or is it entirely up to the mod?

Very likely 3 scum. Possibly 2
scum and 1 Serial Killer, less likely 3 scum and 1 SK. For now, it's safe to assume there are 3 scum.

It seems very town for someone to encourage people to get out there and hunt scum. But it seems very scum for someone to encourage people to hunt in such a way that promotes paranoia. To say that you just need to get out there and start swinging in relative proximity to saying that lurking is a scumtell seems, to me, to be encouraging sloppy plays. Am I overthinking that too?

Encouraging scum hunting and discussion is generally townie. Problem is, it's extremely easy for scum to say the same thing, making it a null tell overall.

You have a good point about the lurkers vs. active townies. Lurking scum are hard to weed out Day 1, and very frequently an active townie ends up lynched Day 1 simply because they made more
mistakes than anyone else (for no other reason than they were posting more than anyone else). Don't let that stop you from grilling people for what they're doing, but you're right that you should never forget the people who aren't saying much of anything.

As for telling people to start swinging being a scum tell, you may have a point. That's something I've never considered (might try it next time I'm scum ), but that's predicated on the assumption that the lurkers are scum too. I wouldn't recommend trying to tie people together too much Day 1, but keep this in mind for when we get some flips. If zemanjaski flips scum, we can look at the lurkers. If lurkers flip scum, we can look at zemanjaski, but I wouldn't work based on that until we get that concrete information.


DocLawless is town, by the way.

Definitely townie questions. He's showing a real attempt to figure it out. What pushes
you enough to confirm him though?

[DocLawless]

I've also decided that it's irrelevant for anyone playing town to try and be subtle about it. Scum knows who's town, and if town figures out someone else is a townie then nobody cares.

Which is to say town only needs to worry about the difference between someone who is legit town and someone who is lying about being legit town.

Again, old hat to you but new to me.

[Stardust]

Definitely townie questions. He's showing a real attempt to figure it out. What pushes you enough to confirm him though?

Day-cop investigation.

I've also decided that it's irrelevant for anyone playing town to try and be subtle about it. Scum knows who's town, and if town figures out someone else is a townie then nobody cares.

Not totally true! Thinking about who is town is actually very helpful! Don't forget about them completely, but if you can narrow your lynch options
down to a few people, life gets very difficult for scum.

[rcwraspy]

Definitely townie questions. He's showing a real attempt to figure it out. What pushes you enough to confirm him though?

Day-cop investigation.

oh rofl.

[Stardust]

Definitely townie questions. He's showing a real attempt to figure it out. What pushes you enough to confirm him though?

Day-cop investigation.

oh rofl.

Why question my town read when you have a town read on him as well?

[( G_R )]

Because scum town-reads are always accurate.

@imopen2: I'd like an answer from him before I answer to you.

[( G_R )]

INB4 GR answered question addressed at someone else.

(I do understand why you think he's almost certainly town and I agree)

[Wraith223]

Yo Wraith, what do you mean with the last sentence here (red bolded)?:

- snip-

@Zem, just talking shit and babbling to just hear yourself talk is crappy posting at it's core. Why do you keep repeating yourself (crappy posts)? Not getting the answers you want from me? I poste anything these days and you call it crappy posting. Thus why bother responding anymore to scum, mental priming. "trying to speed the game up" is a classic means for scum to survive as town folks are at risk more when they make hasty, primed decisions. Looking at the opposite perspective, Zem could really be trying to get scum to slip up as freedom did. Will still be watching Zem closely.

This is my first game and do not expect special treatment. - snip -

but I am new

The bolded parts look weird to me.

I asked you questions you haven't answered.
Are you really going to avoid them because I might criticize the answers?

Any post not worshiping your "briliiance" looks weird to you. D your own f'ing research to find out.

I somehow missed the question post. Ok, I can see you have never actually done any police work. A good LEO listens for the while, watches the first ones to speak, checks responses from others, and waits for evidence. No crime has been commited yet. It's still the first day. I would say it's a feel good session to make any big claims but...freedom. Yeah, not the brightest post. Generally, the loadest one screaming "look at someone else" is the scum. Letting the supstect talk themselves into a corner is nuub level interrogation skills. Your personality screams talk to appear the smartest guy in the room, thus a broad claim that scum hide in the shadows is missleading. The
alternative is so overt; it's covert

We haven't heard from some in a great amount for analysis.

OK, you're frustrated town. Thanks I think you can leave the personal attacks for the clan thread though, I am very happy to take it up there or in PM.

FYI scum to hide in the shadows in mafia, there are lots of articles on it.

[pedit]Wraith, yes I am a lawyer. And I would disagree that talking gets you in to trouble. I don't work in criminal law, I am a commercial laywer so it is a different mindset. It's my job to get people talking and agreeing.

I think not talking broadly benefits scum. If no one says anything, then we'll never find them. Thoughts?

I agree with you that freedom now finds himself in a difficult position. An alternative for him to avoid being the lynch toDay would be to find someone more scummy that we can lynch instead.

I
getch yah. It was calculated hostlity. I hate voting on Freedom for a squrew up as it is to easy. Freedom's post really made no sense to me and appeared as "i am smart to!" in response to decent analysis from a few. It drastically failed...or it worked to pick out the thinkers for nightkills.

Sure. Since we can only lynch one scum per vote. It is wise to listen to the thinkers and pick the best targets for nightkills. They can only do one as well, thus picking the ones who pick apart the sub text of possible scum suckers woulds seem standard MO if the thinkers are on target. I posit that folks who auto attack then dump Freedom with well thought out reasons for not lynching him would be cops or "good' player worth nightkilling. There is no getting around this facts as freedom is now a pivot role of who he does not correspond with for us to watch. Now the opposite could be true as well for
lynching an idiot with scum false rationals. Problem is that trageting the idiot response would be dumb. Why lynch the dumb chicken when you can get the houndog instead.

InflateablePie (reasons noted before) and GR (not wanting walls of text to give responses to) are looking to be the other scums to so far.

[imopen2]

Because scum town-reads are always accurate.

@imopen2: I'd like an answer from him before I answer to you.

lol...I didn't even see the sentence at the top of your post. I thought you just quoted his post and bolded the weird part. Sorry, daddy.