Dies to Removal

There’s been a lot of debate recently regarding the best color splash for red decks in the current Standard environment. Those like me that started the new Standard playing mono red quickly began searching for answers to decks like Mono Blue Devotion that the red portion of the color pie lacked while staying true to the style of play we enjoyed with our original brew. Our attention turned to black and white as possible choices and experimentation began. Now that some weeks have gone by, where do we stand? What truly is the strongest splash for our red decks with respect to the metagame?

Let’s take a look at the card pool the two colors offer us. For the sake of clarity, I’m going to separate the cards into three distinct catagories: key cards that will definitely see maindeck play in most iterations of the color combination, support cards that may see play in some iterations of the
deck between the mainboard and sideboard, and cards that will only see play in the sideboard but have a significant role there.

WHITE
Key: Chained to the Rocks, Boros Charm, Temple of Triumph
Support: [card]Warleader’s Helix[/card], Spark Trooper, Viashino Firstblade
Sideboard: [card]Wear / Tear[/card], Assemble the Legion, Tajic, Blade of the Legion, Glare of Heresy, Last Breath

BLACK
Key: Dreadbore, Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch, Spike Jester
Support: Rakdos Shred-Freak, Doom Blade, [card]Toil / Trouble[/card], [card:
wwmit746]Thoughtseize[/card]
Sideboard: Dark Betrayal, Slaughter Games, Duress, Augur Spree

Looking at the key cards for each color, we can draw a few conclusions very quickly:
1) White has the best pre-board removal spell available in Chained to the Rocks.
2) White offers the best consistency in the 75 due to having access to a scryland.
3) Black offers the most power in the mainboard.
4) The black card pool appears biased toward creature-based strategies.

Chained to the Rocks or Dreadbore?
Perhaps the most interesting debate to have is one of Chained to the Rocks vs Dreadbore. These cards are BIG reasons to be in their respective colors, and it’s easy to see why. They offer answers to problems that red alone has difficulty dealing with, yet each has significant drawbacks when
compared to the other. A big advantage with Chained to the Rocks is that it can target Master of Waves, a card that can give red decks nightmares if devotion to blue is high enough, and even alone presents a significant roadblock to red creatures not named [card]Chandra’s Phoenix[/card]. Dreadbore can’t hit Master of Waves, but it can hit Stormbreath Dragon, though the latter sees significantly less play than the former. What’s most significant about Dreadbore preboard is that it can hit planeswalkers. Ever had your Esper opponent tap out for Elspeth on turn six, make a bunch of tokens, and laugh at your face? Or maybe Jace to tick him up one on your board full of 1/1 Elementals? Dreadbore gives them the sads in a heartbeat. In Esper matchups in particular, Chained to the Rocks is a dead card, but in the mono blue matchup where Chained is more favorable, Dreadbore can still down Frostburn Weird, [
card]Tidebinder Mage[/card], and Nightveil Specter. That’s a big deal.

Where the difference really gets interesting is postboard. I have been in many games where my Chained to the Rocks has been eaten by Peak Eruption, Abrupt Decay, or bounced untimely by a Cyclonic Rift resulting in a huge blowout on my combat step. That’s the absolute worst feeling in the world, and if BG is big in your local meta, it can even happen game one! This is something you have to be cautious about when leaning on Chained to the Rocks.

Boros Charm and Temple of Triumph
Boros Charm is an interesting card because it actually fits two distinct archetypes. You can either run a heavy burn deck and use it to deal four damage for two mana (which is amazing) while sometimes using it to protect Chained to the Rocks, or you can use it for insurance for your creatures with the possibility of flinging it upstairs for that final four
damage you need late in the game. Using Boros Charm against Supreme Verdict isn’t too significant because red decks tend to have great game against U/W and Esper already, but it can result in some pretty big blowouts during combat.

One big thing white has going for it is Temple of Triumph. Scry 1 may not seem like much, but once you’ve played with it you really begin to appreciate what it does for you. Fixing draws is good in any deck, but in aggressive decks that value consistency like red, the effect is HUGE. That you can play them alongside Boros Guildgate is also very important in decks looking to play as few nonred sources as possible.

Exava and Spike Jester
When I first saw Exava spoiled I knew she would be amazing, yet she really hasn’t taken off yet in the Standard environment. Nevertheless, this card is the real deal. She doesn’t die to Lightning Strike, Doom Blade, or Abrupt Decay. She straight up WINS battles against Loxodon Smiter,
Frostburn Weird, Nightveil Specter, Stormbreath Dragon, and Fiendslayer Paladin. With burn help she can power through Desecration Demon and Polukranos. She does something the turn she hits the field. I really can’t say enough about her.

Spike Jester is another great offering from black. A three-power hasted dude on turn two? Play a Cackler or Firedrinker Satyr on turn one and that’s 5 damage right out of the gate. If you’re on the play, Esper may as well go to game two. What’s even more significant is that this card powers through Sylvan Caryatid. I can’t remember how many times I’ve played against that card and wished I had a three-power dude on my side of the board early in the game.

White support cards: Warleader’s Helix, Spark Trooper, and Viashino Firstblade
The white card pool offers some pretty diverse potential strategies. You could concentrate on a burn and haste strategy, and in that case [card]Warleader’s Helix[/card] and [card]Spark
Trooper[/card] offer a lot. Helix is particularly good in aggro matchups where the four-point lifegain is extremely helpful. Spark Trooper is basically a Standard-legal Ball Lightning with an upside for one mana more, and since it comes later in the curve your opponent is more likely to have used his removal on earlier dudes, making him a decent potential finisher.

One interesting card to note is Viashino Firstblade. At 3cmc, he competes with Chandra’s Phoenix, but if you’re trying to jam as many creatures with haste in your deck as possible, he’s a real card. Four power and toughness the turn he comes down means he’s getting through against most board states.

Black support cards: Rakdos Shred-Freak, Doom Blade, Toil / Trouble, and Thoughtseize
Perhaps the most overlooked card for black-based strategies currently is Rakdos Shred-Freak. Yes, he’s only a 2/1 with haste, but he is incredibly easy to cast in RB,
and since this color combo is currently missing its scryland, that’s a big deal. Another upside is his immunity to Doom Blade and Ultimate Price. Mono black really gets caught off-guard in game one with a board of Rakdos Cackler and Rakdos Shred-Freak!

Doom Blade is right there with Dreadbore in “cards I definitely want to run if I’m in black.” The nonblack clause is significant which is why Dreadbore wins the battle for most mainboard space, but Doom Blade hitting Master of Waves is a big reason to run the full four in the 75. Instant speed is also a big deal for this card. I’ve had a few games where someone has flashed in an Advent of the Wurm token thinking he’s about to blow me out in combat only for his precious 5/5 token to eat a Doom Blade before blockers are declared. Doom Blade along with Dreadbore in the 75 makes these kinds of midrange strategies a hilariously easy
matchup.

[card]Toil / Trouble[/card] is a card I championed early on even though I had a lot of naysayers in my local meta decrying it (one a contributor to SCG!). It’s now established itself as a good option in burn decks and a significant punishment to control-based strategies. I have lived the dream and fused this card for 11 total damage on a couple of occasions. I’ve also dealt 7 damage with it on turn three. That’s almost impossible for control to recover from. It’s an outright replacement for Dreadbore in my RB deck postboard vs Esper since it effectively does the same thing in that matchup (kills Jace) with an obvious upside of dealing damage upstairs.

Thoughtseize is worth playing in the 75 if you expect a lot of strategies that RB has difficulty answering. If hexproof decks are prevalent along with a meta skewed highly for control, I would consider playing this card. That said, I’ve taken a liking to all of my cards being good topdecks, and
while it’s a great card against any deck when it’s in my opening hand, when I’m looking for that last burn spell or hasty creature to finish off my opponent, Thoughtseize just doesn’t get the job done when drawn. That’s something to keep in mind when considering this card.

Sideboard cards
I’ll touch briefly on the sideboard cards for each color since their use is narrower than the cards in the other categories.

WHITE
[card]Wear / Tear[/card]: good if you expect a lot of hexproof decks and also want a card that can take care of Chained to the Rocks but don’t want to use sideboard slots for Peak Eruption.
Assemble the Legion: if your mana base is large enough to support 5cmc, mono black and mono blue cannot beat this card short of Duress and Cyclonic Rift, respectively. If you also expect decks that have access to enchantment hate but feel they won’t include it in their 75 (BG, RW) this card can come as a huge shock to them.
[
card]Tajic, Blade of the Legion[/card]: mono black and mono red can’t handle it outside of Devour Flesh on an empty board in mono black.
Glare of Heresy: exiles Obzedat, Loxodon Smiter, Unflinching Courage, Boros Reckoner, Gift of Orzhova, Elspeth, Detention Sphere, Heliod, God of the Sun, and Fiendslayer Paladin.
Last Breath: exiles Chandra’s Phoenix in the mirror match.

BLACK
Dark Betrayal: kills Desecration Demon, Nightveil Specter, Obzedat, and Gray Merchant.
Slaughter Games: naming [card]Sphinx’s Revelation[/card]. Extend hand.
Duress: vs hexproof and control.
Augur Spree: kill spell that doubles as removal for Lotleth Troll and Varolz, the Scar-Striped.

Example decklists
So what are
some potential lists for Boros and Rakdos? Boros is interesting because it has a couple of strategies available to it. We all know about Zemanjaski’s PyroWhite so we won’t go over that here. Instead, let’s look into a couple of other possible builds.

The first build is a creature-centric build that adds some utility in the form of Boros Charm and Chained to the Rocks.

[deck]
Creatures (23)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
3 Viashino Firstblade

Spells (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Boros Charm
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (22)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple Garden
3 Mutavault
8 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Skullcrack
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
1 Rod of Ruin
1 Tajic, Blade of the Legion
[/deck]

With 23 creatures in the deck (plus three Mutavault), Chandra really shines. Chained to the Rocks helps clear bigger threats out of the way.
Boros Charm gives added reach as well as potential combat blowouts against other creature decks.

The second deck is more burn oriented Boros build:

[deck]
Creatures (16)
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Viashino Firstblade
4 Spark Trooper

Spells (22)
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm

Lands (22)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Boros Guildgate
2 Mutavault
8 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Toil / Trouble
3 Warleader’s Helix
1 Rod of Ruin
1 Tajic, Blade of the Legion
[/deck]

Every creature in the deck has haste, making it a pseudo-burn spell depending on the board state. You have 20 burn spells maindeck with access to seven more postboard. Your midrange matchups are good postboard since you will have seven spells that do four damage and four spells that don’t care about toughness. Against aggro you simply bring out your Skullcracks and Boros Charms for more relevant removal.
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The third and final deck on the block is a Rakdos deck with a lot of power and speed. It’s a deck I’ve been playing since late October in paper.

[deck]
Creatures (23)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (14)
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Dreadbore
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Swamp
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Dark Betrayal
4 Shock
1 Dreadbore
4 Doom Blade
3 Toil / Trouble
[/deck]

Do you have a meta filled with midrange and/or control strategies? Play this deck. Every creature with the exception of Rakdos Cackler has haste, which is HUGE. Exava and Spike Jester give you a lot of power to fight midrange strategies while keeping the pressure on vs control. Chandra is the best card in the deck, giving you a falter every turn she survives, a free card if you want, and even bringing back her Phoenix if the situation arises. Postboard the deck can
morph into a control role against red mirrors where this deck tends to be a slight underdog. Against midrange it brings in Doom Blade and the last Dreadbore to have a ridiculous number of answers to fat guys. Against control you simply bring in Toil / Trouble.

Conclusion
With white and black offering so many different options for our red decks, there’s no clear cut winner between the two. Boros strategies have certainly seen more success at the tournament level, but it’s difficult to say whether this is due to Boros being better or if Rakdos is simply underrepresented in the competitive scene. We ought to have a more clear picture as the spoilers for Born of the Gods begin to come through. The way the meta shapes as a result of that set could favor one color splash over another.

I think we might see a lot of rakdos control/burn lists once we get the scrylands

rakdos might be getting a new planeswalker in BoTG too, judging by the spoiler pictures

Good work, Val. I like that you presented a clear analysis of the two rather than biasing towards a specific splash. My only real comment is that these kinds of things need numbers, and that's something I haven't seen.

Ex: Direct substitution of Doom Blade for Chained. Direct substitution of Dreadbore for Chained. Play a significant number of games with one or the other. Write down every time you play your removal spell, and how the alternative would have worked in that specific case.

Great job Val. It´s not clear cut, but as Boros has Scrylands I understand everyone going that direction. I can´t wait for Rakdos scry myself.

As for RB commentary I miss Tymaret and Erebos. Tymaret allows for a controlish burn build with ca that is even more subtle than YP (check Pedros GT commentary) and Erebos is a side board card vs MonoB and anything else w Lifegain. My point: RB is not only a possible aggro build.

The Dreadbore vs Chained debate I find it a tad silly since the main card in the metas main deck has Pro Red. As of this moment Dreadbore is not x-anything material. Play UP or Doom Blade md in whatever mix fits your meta, alongside a singleton Dreadbore, and MonoU will start to fade. At that point discussing Dreadbore starts to make sense. It´s a piece of amazing removal yet completely emasculated at the present moment. Keep the multiples in the sb.

Toil//Trouble is starting to look like a card. Agree.


Rakdos PW Tyrael? That´d be almost too good...

@ MattT what does this look like to you?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/born-of-the-gods-spoiler/

Solid article, agree on most points.

I'm in agreement with MattT - Doom Blade is the Chained to the Rocks substitute, not Dreadbore.

As far as I'm aware the only reason Walter White even existed was to give the deck a chance vs. MonoU and specifically Master of Waves.

Online I'm inclined to agree, but the problem with Doom Blade is that it is absolutely dead vs mono black and Esper whereas Dreadbore is never dead. That's a big deal.

In my paper meta there is very little mono blue and a lot of black-based decks. The decision to run Dreadbore there is obvious.

Good article, disagreed on some points, but the overall piece was very good.

Hmm...

Is ultimate price just not worth a damn anymore?

@ MattT what does this look like to you?

To be honest sadly ... it looks like a satyr. It looks like a satyr ascending to godhood or something.

So terrifyingly enough it could be something r/g... again. . . which make Midnight_v think "fuuuuck"....
(though to be fair, it could be Mogis' himself)

Edit 2: I took the deck out, and the first deck I played against was? Dun Dun Duuunnn: MUD
promptly stomped to games in a row. Not that it wasn't to expected. Still here's what I realize "FOR ME" I'm not comfortable playing a deck that loses the first game to Either one of the most copied decks in the format.
I feel like white gets there better but not just because of chained. It gets there because of the scrylands.

Now I do hate citp lands, but when I play temple of X I feel like I'm getting
ahead, and in most cases I am. Yet, even on a decent draw playing rakdos guildgate turns hope to ash in my mouth.
And me? I WANT to play rakdos. . . I want to to play it badly. I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't be holding: Thoughtsieze~Packrat in R/B aggro decks as well in that 75... its a pretty strong interaction when backed by burn or when you're holding Phoenix. Course I'm just spitballing, but I think the scrylands make a huge difference in the decks.

Further... I'm really surprised you're not running Mogis maurader. Its very similar to the white decks that run Brave the elements for their alpha enhanced strike.

Lastly, I'm super unhappy to be unable to have any answer to the various Gods that are running about. . . just my 2 cents, after being punched in the mouth by thassa.

@ MattT what does this look like to you?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/born-of-the-gods-spoiler/

Unfortunately I think that is Xenagos ascending to godhood. A Rakdos pw would be awesome though.

@ MattT what does this look like to you?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/born-of-the-gods-spoiler/

Unfortunately I think that is Xenagos ascending to godhood. A Rakdos pw would be awesome though.

Agreed.

Online I'm inclined to agree, but the problem with Doom Blade is that it is absolutely dead vs mono black and Esper whereas Dreadbore is never dead. That's a big deal.

In my paper meta there is very little mono blue and a lot of black-based decks. The decision to run Dreadbore there is obvious.

I guess it comes down to a meta call then. You could then even argue that Ultimate Price is the removal to run - my major point was that Dreadbore is not the reason to splash black, because it doesn't help you against one of the tougher match-ups. I'm personally thinking of R/b for Doom Blade (no MonoB in my meta).

I was contemplating R/b aggro a lot and every time I keep
drifting closer and closer to B/r aggro. Once you start along the Spike Jester, Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch path - you're not far from [card]Mogis's Marauder[/card] and Xathrid Necromancer (most of your cards are human after all) and by then it's black splash red.

For me - splash means adding 4-6 cards of a colour so that we are able to answer threats or provide a method of attack that our main colour can't. If we look at Walter White, it splashes white for 2 Mainboard and 2 Sideboard Chained to the Rocks, that's it. That's not to say Boros Charm is not good and doesn't deserve a spot (it might, it might not, I don't play the deck so I don't know. Same for Assemble the Legion - I'm just going on posted lists that I've seen).

Anyway - enough of the philosophical waffle. I'm going to add my
thoughts on Rakdos since it's a version I've played, worked on and tested.

Guildgates are bad. Rakdos's advantage is the ton of haste it has and the number of times you're going to be stuck with Rakdos Guildgate being your only source of T2 red or black mana for Spike Jester ruins your plan. That's why the deck runs things like Shred-freak, speaking of which.

Rakdos Shred-freak is underwhelming. If you're going to run Guildgates for mana consistency - rather run Firedrinker Satyr or Tormented Hero. This will allow you to go T1 - 1-drop, T2 Guildgate, 1-drop more often.

In building a PyroRakdos deck you end up in a weird state where your creatures are mostly Black and your spells are Red, this severely affects the deck consistency. And again every time you add a black creature you keep pushing yourself toward [card]Mogis's
Marauder[/card].

Here's the list I would think of for a black splash, based off Walter White:

[deck]
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
(could be Spike Jester, but then may need to adjust mana base)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
Creatures [20]

3 Chandra, Pyromaster
Planeswalkers [3]

2 Doom Blade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
1 Flames of the Firebrand
Spells [14]

2 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Swamp
12 Mountain
Lands [23]
[/deck]

Looking at it, I just can't see why it's definitely 'better' - Boros Reckoner is a great sideboard option along with Boros Charm. Thoughtseize is for me the biggest reason to look at Black, and to me it just improves an already good match-up.

I've actually found the opposite to be the case with respect to guildgates. With testing I've found that I'd rather run fewer one drops and crowd the two drop spot so I can play t1 guildgate into hasty two drop. It allows me to do the same damage on turn two as I would a one drop, and it makes my topdecks more relevant for the long game. A topdecked Shred-Freak is better than a topdecked Satyr the majority of the time.

I've actually found the opposite to be the case with respect to guildgates. With testing I've found that I'd rather run fewer one drops and crowd the two drop spot so I can play t1 guildgate into hasty two drop. It allows me to do the same damage on turn two as I would a one drop, and it makes my topdecks more relevant for the long game. A topdecked Shred-Freak is better than a topdecked Satyr the majority of the time.

Actually - I can't believe I forgot this option (since this is the way I did run things a while back).

I can't recall why I didn't like in the end, or why I switched (if there was a reason).

But you're right, a 2-drop heavy build can much more afford Guildgates than a 1-drop build.

great article. I think Rakdos is slighty ahead in power, just because of how hard it is to deal with their strategy. The best way has usually been with enchantments that they can't interact with but they can't be that popular because of the rest of the field. Spear of heliod is a good example of this.

How do you beat hasted creatures? There isn't enough instant speed removla in a world with chained to the rocks and d-spheres.
How do you beat your dudes getting doom bladed? Its too cheap to set-up much outside the occasional brave the elements and Chandra shits on them.
How do you stabilize in G/R when you can just get toil/troubled over the top? (I highly reccomend sinding in toil/trouble vs. G/r Devotion. Let them +1 garruk then laugh as they take too long ot win.)
How do you beat thoughtseize into hasted creature? Is very potent and I'd imagine is as powerful as thoughtseize into pack rat out of mono black (except
faster and less fragile to 1 removal spell).


I might be biased, but Boros has always been relatively simple to beat.

How do you beat chained to the rocks? Enchantment removal, using haste to get value before getting just 1-1d.
How do you beat boros charm? Interact with their board every step of the way before they can leave open mana for it. Laugh as they run out of guys
How do you beat helix/Spark trooper? Ok these are decent cards, I'll admit, but at 4 mana they are a bit expensive to be good against the entire field and the number they can run is limited (as opposed to 4 doom blades for example.)


I think rakdos is terribly underrepresented and it seems like it always has been with the exception of R/B zombies for a brief time last year. I definitely recommend picking up the cards for it now in anticipation of the scry lands coming out and it potentially seeing more organized play

I thought some more on splash and the fact that it´s much about handling two decks and a few creatures; e.g. Master of the Waves, Thassa and Desecration Demon.

Here´s an (completely theorized and unstested) idea, splash Blue for [cards]Turn//Burn[/cards]. It´s something very simple and elegant in my mind to counter an attacking Master and his elementals by a single YP and a Turn//. Same with Thassa. //Burn also hits upstairs (yay recursion!) which the various other splashes doesn´t do.

Am I missing somehing the size of a barn door here?

theres a thread by Alex for izzet blitz. it's also very good but VERY hard to play bc of countetspell actoon

Fate - I disagree with the white splash being "easy to beat." Yea, it's easy to kill Chained in a vacuum. But you know how many cards are being played that can deal with it? Peak Eruption and Abrupt Decay. And how many decks play those? Not many. Cyclonic Rift out of blue is the only real "answer" around. Your argument is akin to saying that black isn't worth splashing because hexproof creatures exist.

MattT - if all you're trying to do is deal with Master, Turn // Burn isn't the answer. Why play conditional removal when unconditional removal exists?

I'm in agreement with MattT - Doom Blade is the Chained to the Rocks substitute, not Dreadbore.

As far as I'm aware the only reason Walter White even existed was to give the deck a chance vs. MonoU
and specifically Master of Waves.

Well to expand your awareness...no. When there's a 1-mana terminate in Standard, you play it. Did I mention Walter White was built before Blue Devotion became a thing?

As far as I'm aware the only reason Walter White even existed was to give the deck a chance vs. MonoU and specifically Master of Waves.

Well to expand your awareness...no. When there's a 1-mana terminate in Standard, you play it. Did I mention Walter White was built before Blue Devotion became a thing?

Consider me schooled in history class

MattT - if all you're trying to do is deal with Master, Turn // Burn isn't the answer. Why play conditional removal when unconditional removal exists?

Don´t read half a post and respond please. The issue is that the spot removal is...spotty in the current meta. Everyone want Dreadbore, but Master is immune. What we need in practise is a md card that we get one use of. After that we are most likely home because we are a mix of Aggro and Control. I´m talking PyroX versions, not Vals Rakdos aggro in the starting post. Chain might look like StP.02, but it isn´t. It dies to a number commonly played cards, so it might have seen it´s glory Days. In any case it also has weaknesses. The answer has to hit Master AND a number of other targets.

Turn// is a
combo card before 5 mana, but this is a recursive, burn filled, deck sporting a PW able to ping creatures for 1. It´s not exactly hard to find that other part of the combo. YP also loves Counters thus does blue offer nice sideboarding. I´m not saying blue is a better answer as I haven´t even tested, but it at least deserves that much imho.

I think I was misunderstood, I didn't mean R/w was weaker because it was "easier" to beat, just that the strategy is linear enough that counterplay and plans can be made, whereas the lines/SB choices for beating R/b isn't nearly as easy/prevalent. Access to thoughtseize by itself is just huge, because the counterplay to thoughtseize is "siding out lands and drawing well" ;P

Saying that now, i realize gods are a pretty potent strategy against R/b that chained can deal with, but even then gods are only 1 legendary permanent on the field as opposed to playing 4 abrupt decays, cyclonic rifts, enchant removal, etc.

Is there a dedicated R/b thread anywhere?

Not yet!

Fate - I disagree with the white splash being "easy to beat." Yea, it's easy to kill Chained in a vacuum. But you know how many cards are being played that can deal with it? Peak Eruption and Abrupt Decay. And how many decks play those? Not many. Cyclonic Rift out of blue is the only real "answer" around.

I suppose you never got blown out because someone did sth to Chain at ijnstant speed. It is a reall answer, as it 1) destroys your board or 2) kills you on opponents turn. I wouldnt even try to do sth to chain if not for those 2 reasons.

Decay
Golgari charm
Detention sphere
Glare of heresy
Peak eruption
Cyclonic rift.
Destructive revelery
Wear//tear

Some are played in mb, most in sbs.

sth

sth???

sth = 'something'

sth = 'something'

Hmm. How about that. Learn sth new every day!

Awaiting your primer with impatience, Zool

Is there a dedicated R/b thread anywhere?

There´s a point to it. Enough people are interested in debating it at least.

I am working on a R/b primer now.

I am working on a R/b primer now.

That's where I'll want to be shortly. Great terrors, disruption, good creatures still, recursion, etc. Not sure if I'll be playing a "Dos Rakis" look-alike or a YP$ and Tymaret deck or a Dragon and Demon control deck, but I know I want to play R/B in some form. Until the B/R scrylands come we can always use Temple of Silence to supplement our black sources and still cast Reckoner from the board.

I am working on a R/b primer now.

That's good, because I am completely unqualified to write one!

Dreadbore > Doom Blade.

Not even really close as far as I'm concerned. Dreadbore hits almost everything in Standard, so it has much broader applications. For those creatures — Blood Baron and Master, are the two most played — there are other answers and other solutions.

Ask and ye shall receive:

viewtopic.php?f=108&t=2062

Dreadbore > Doom Blade.

Not even really close as far as I'm concerned. Dreadbore hits almost everything in Standard, so it has much broader applications. For those creatures — Blood Baron and Master, are the two most played — there are other answers and other solutions.

What of relevance does Dreadbore hit that Doom Blade doesn't?

Planeswalkers is kind of a big one, with Jace, AoT being the most relevant.

Desecration Demon is easy to keep tapped if you play YP$, or you can falter it with Chandra, Pyromaster - or even just sac a recursive Phoenix.

Nightveil Specter
and Pack Rat are easily handled by Lightning Strike.

This isn't just a matter of application, it's a matter of relevant application. A resolved Master of Waves kills us, a resolved Desecration Demon doesn't necessarily.

Neither of them deals with Blood Baron - which is a problem for us and requires Mortar's in the board (or Act of Treason, which also does wonders against Desecration Demon).

But Dreadbore is obviously superior in lists without YP$, and as stated in the primer, RB tends to emphasize creature-based decks, making it difficult to support YP$ with spells.

You can falter Demon with Chandra, but she just dies on the backswing. Four mana for one falter is terrible and that's why my recent revelation has been to side her out (a counterintuitive action).

Plus it's always nice to have OTHER spells that can kill Specter and Pack Rat besides Lightning Strike.