[Primer] B/G Control (The Rock or Charlie Murphy)

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rcwraspy
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[Primer] B/G Control (The Rock or Charlie Murphy)

Postby rcwraspy » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:54 pm

The Rock

UPDATE: M14
This deck has really come on strong since M14 came out and gave us the creatures listed just below. A sample deck list by the great Michael Jacob is in the Sample Lists section. It is currently the only post-M14 list in the Primer's first post.

New M14 Additions:
Lifebane Zombie has replaced Geralf's Messenger in a lot of lists. With a field heavy with Jund, Kibler G/r Aggro, Naya, and UWr, the extra text on Lifebane really shines. Intimidate is an important aspect against those decks, and it can trade with a large section of relevant creatures if put back on defense. The ability to see your opponent's hand and sequence your plays and removal accordingly can not be overstated. It's not resilient to [c:
whbx1wt8]Mutilate[/c] the way Messenger's undying is, but that's made up by the other aspects it gives you.

Scavenging Ooze can potentially out-live your Mutilate, depending on board states and when you're casting either. But more importantly, it's a creature that comes down early against aggro, gains you life, and grows. While Cremate could take problem cards out of graveyards and draw you a card, Ooze can take care of multiple problem cards in graveyards and gain you life while representing a growing threat.

Mutavault can be jammed in the list now that we've replaced Messenger with Lifebane. We no longer need 3 black sources on turn 3. Mutavault is wonderful as it is a threat that naturally avoids your Mutilate.

Primeval Bounty is seeing some play in sideboards, and is sometimes replacing slots that went to Deadbridge
Chant
. While it's not a form of card draw or card advantage, it does help each of your top decks become live cards with immediate impacts.

Introduction
Introduction
What is The Rock?
“The Rock” is a deck name and archetype that has been around for a long time. The Rock plays a role somewhere between midrange and control. The purpose of The Rock is to destroy your opponent’s resources and then beat them down. It accomplishes this through hand disruption, removal, card advantage, and resilient threats.
Why play The Rock?
You would want to play The Rock if you enjoy long, grindy games and being in control of the board state. The Rock players enjoy various decision trees and forcing their opponents to make decisions they don’t want to make. You like The Rock if you enjoy drawing like a champ.
Why not to play The Rock?
If you favor “turn
dudes sideways” as your strategy, The Rock likely isn’t for you. If Island is your favorite control card, The Rock likely isn’t for you.
The Card Pool
The Card Pool
The Rock as it currently exists in Standard (post-DGM, pre-M14 2013) draws heavily from some Mono Black Control (MBC) theory-crafting.
Because Mutilate is at the very core of the deck’s strategy, we choose our creatures and build our curve with it in mind. Here is an MBC (splashing red) list run by Conley Woods for PT-GTC:
[deck]

Creatures
4 Gloom Surgeon
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Griselbrand

Other Spells
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dreadbore
4 Mutilate
1 Rakdos’s Return
4 Sign in Blood
1 Staff of Nin
4 Victim of Night

Land
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
17 Swamp

[/deck]

The core of this deck uses a very similar strategy to The Rock in that
you’re putting out threats that help you stabilize, you’re building in large card advantage with Sign in Blood and Griselbrand, and you’re packing a lot of removal.

The Rock takes these concepts and changes red to green in favor of more removal in Abrupt Decay and Putrefy as well as the most played card in Standard, which really fuels this archetype, in Thragtusk. The Rock also chooses its curve and creatures with Mutilate in mind, and foregoes Griselbrand in favor of more easily cast threats and synergies. The archetype would not exist without the following core cards:

[deck]

1 Thragtusk
1 Mutilate
1 Liliana of the Veil
[/deck]

From there, we build with resilient threats, board control, and hand disruption.

Additional Cards
In addition to the core cards, The Rock utilizes these packages:

n
Creatures
Geralf’s Messenger – This little guy has so many uses. He comes into play tapped so you’re not putting down a blocker for the first turn, but he comes back after a Mutilate board wipe and sometimes tricks your opponent into overextending because they assume you won’t wipe the board after you play him.

Desecration Demon – often derided as a “trap” card, the Demon could almost be put in the above “core cards” list. He forces your opponents to make a decision they don’t want to make. This can be confused with the decision with Vexing Devil and therefore be assumed horrible, but with the removal that this deck packs, you will be swinging with a 6/6 or larger flyer. He helps your board control and is a finisher, all in one. Do not play this card unless you pack a lot of removal, which this deck does.

Thragtusk – the ultimate stabilizer. I don’t
think he needs any more explanation than the past year’s worth of being the #1 used card in Standard. However he does help synergize with…

Disciple of Bolas – What? Now THAT’S a spicy meatball! This is our replacement for Griselbrand from Woods’s MBC list. Sac a dude, get life and cards equal to its power. LIFE AND CARDS. T5 Thragtusk, gain 5. T6 Disciple, sac Thrag, gain 5 draw 5 make a 3/3. Seems pretty decent to me. Sac a 7/7 or 8/8 Desecration demon to this before a Mutilate is also a strong play later in the game.
Removal
Tragic Slip – wonderful early removal and tempo loss against an aggro deck with Champion of the Parish or Stromkirk Noble. With our resilient dudes and the rest of our removal, Morbid is very relevant as well.

Victim of Night – this is easier for our deck to cast than other early
removal (barring tragic slip), but it whiffs against some very relevant creatures like Stromkirk, Huntmaster of the Fells, Falkenrath Aristocrat, and Olivia Voldaren. Therefore this is usually a 2 or 3 of with an extra in the side for aggro blitz matchups.

Abrupt Decay – Can’t be countered and doesn’t whiff against anything without indestructible, AS LONG AS the target’s CMC is 3 or less. This is the early removal card of choice and, since we need to see it early, is normally a 3 or 4 of in the list.

Putrefy – this is in a way a harder-to-cast Murder. I say that because its two clauses that Murder doesn’t have, that it hits artifacts and the target can’t be regenerated, are rarely applicable. However, this deck can hit its green fairly well and we run this over Murder for cards like Lotleth Troll and Wolfir
Avenger
.

Mutilate – this wouldn’t be a deck without this card. The ability to wipe the board clear T4 or a bit later and then let your spot removal, card advantage, and threats take over is invaluable.
Utility
Cremate – I’ve got 2 copies mainboard and another 2 in the side. Some folks don’t like this MB, but it’s amazing when it’s needed and still OK when it’s not. A little extra tech against aggro – Cremate their Rancor while it’s temporarily in the GY before it goes back to hand. In the matchups where this isn’t needed it still cantrips and is a good discard target for Liliana of the Veil.

Sign in Blood – This helps us dig for answers. 2 cards for 2 mana and 2 life and a card is decent. Black has for a long time played with the concept of life as a resource to draw cards, and Sign in Blood is a fair example of that
concept in Standard. This card can start to hurt against a blitz-style aggro deck, so be careful.
Planeswalkers
Liliana of the Veil – Some say she’s the 2nd best Planeswalker ever printed, behind JtMS. I wouldn’t know about that, but she sure shines in this build. Since we’re heavy against aggro in the main, but some builds include cards like Cremate MB and we run 24 land, we’re usually very happy to +1 her. When you know you’re discarding a card that you don’t need, it squashes the symmetry of the ability. Her -2 edict effect helps against aggro but also comes in huge against those Bant Enchant matchups and anything hexproof.

Garruk Relentless – Create an army of 2/2 wolves, create an army of 1/1 deathtouch wolves, sac tokens or an already used Disciple of Bolas to tutor another Thragtusk. This card just packs in the answers and is a
toolbox in a card.
Sideboard Options
The main board is fairly well positioned against most aggro decks with the sheer amount of removal it packs, so our sideboard plans revolve around shoring that up with additional copies of the main’s removal spells as well as creating a boarding plan against other midrange and control decks.

Duress – Duress and effects like it have been played in Standard and eternal formats as long as they’ve been around. You always want to bring in the full suite of Duress against a Control player. It gives you perfect information (until the next draw) and lets you strip their hand of the most pertinent card for the situation.

Appetite for Brains – Very similar to Duress but varies in its application. This comes in against the midrange decks as well as Control. You can hit Planeswalkers and Aetherlings against Control and the bigger beaters against
midrange.

Staff of Nin – This card does SO MUCH WORK in the longer matchups. A “free” extra draw per turn as well as pinging a creature or player each turn. Ours is a deck of card advantage and attrition, so this is a natural fit.

Curse of Death’s Hold – Believe it or not, our deck struggles against Esper Control. Curse is great against their tokens. This could be Illness in the Ranks, but curse is a bit more widely applicable, though more expensive. Illness also hoses Garruk’s 1/1 deathtouch wolves.

Pithing NeedleNephalia Drownyard getting you down? Or maybe Sorin, Lord of Innistrad or another planeswalker? How about Aetherling, UW/x Control’s new toy? Here’s an answer.

Golgari Charm – The -1/-1 is good against tokens as well as aggro, and the other modes can be relevant given the
situation. I’m not currently boarding this, but it’s not a bad choice. It can clear a pesky Rancor, Unflinching Courage, Spectral Flight (though Abrupt Decay hits those too) or Assemble the Legion if you’re seeing that card around at all.

Tribute to Hunger or Devour Flesh – Similar to the write-up on Liliana, edicts are powerful in this build. Against normal aggro or midrange decks we can clear the way for this to hit the exact creature we want, and against hexproof decks edicts and Mutilate are our only answers. I’d run Devour Flesh over Tribute because of the lifegain we already have and the easier casting cost.

Ground Seal – This is really for those reanimator matchups. Many Rock decks are running around 3 Cremate in
the 75 (mine has 2 main, 2 side) which should be enough to gain an advantage over reanimator, especially game 1. Reanimator is also running Acidic Slime to get rid of all the Ground Seals Jund is main decking right now. It replaces itself which is always good, but they’re going to play around it more often than not.
Cards on the Cusp
Underworld Connections – 1 life = 1 card is so black. I love it. However this isn’t exactly true for this card. This is instead 1 life + 1 mana = 1 card. Better than most draw spells still. This is a great tool for black-based decks right now, and is especially pertinent against control decks when your life total isn’t rapidly declining and the game goes long. Not a great choice against aggro decks.

Deathrite Shaman – Great card. Seeing eternal play. Not really seen in Standard too much right now. This guy’s good in a game of attrition,
especially in a deck that sacs its own guys. However, he absolutely doesn’t pass the Mutilate test our deck requires. He does have fairly good synergy with the following card, should you choose to build around it.

Deadbridge Chant – Do not play this against a mill deck. Yuck. But otherwise, it’s another free draw. Some people are considering putting in Elixir of Immortality and Deathrite Shaman which, combined with Cremate, help you to control the “draw” from Deadbridge. The truth is, your normal draw step is random (sans Ponder effects) anyway. And other than the first 10 mill self or discards to Liliana, cards you’re putting in the bin are likely more relevant than the random card you top-deck. This is another card that enables you to go long against control and maintain card parity or even advantage against them. However, those are also
the decks that run Nephalia Drownyard and Jace, Memory Adept, so it’s risky. Just once though I want to live this dream – Thragtusk, gain 5. Disciple of Bolas targeting Thragtusk, gain 5 draw 5, make a 3/3. Deadbridge Chant re-animates Thragtusk, gain 5. Super troll.

Vraska the Unseen – If you run her, she’ll mostly be a Vindicate for you. Which isn’t horrible, but she has a high casting cost. She has the ability to outright steal the game against control due to her ultimate, but then we’re evaluating a planeswalker based on its ultimate and that makes Tibalt look good. Ok, no it doesn’t. But still, Vraska is a good inclusion in this deck if you want her, but I prefer Garruk Relentless as the 2nd ‘walker here.

Gloom Surgeon – This is a great roadblock until you garner board control. Don’t worry about his exile effect – just ignore the cards you
see exiled, or pretend they were all stuck at the bottom of your library anyway. Dies to
Mutilate, but so does everything else so after the board wipe he won’t be as necessary. Early game against aggro is where you want him. However, The Rock has a very tight creature package and instead relies on 1 for 1 removal until board stabilization.

Vampire Nighthawk – Another card that some people see as “anti-aggro.” Deathtouch is super relevant, but he dilutes your deck the same way Gloom Surgeon does.
Sample Lists
Sample Lists
Robbie Cordell, Top 8 SCG Open Nashville, 5/18/2013
[deck]

Creatures – 14
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
2 Disciple of Bolas
Other Spells - 18
4 Sign in Blood
2 Cremate
1 Putrefy
3 Tragic Slip
3 Mutilate
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Victim of Night
nPlaneswalkers - 4
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
Land – 24
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
14 Swamp
2 Golgari Guildgate
Sideboard – 15
2 Underworld Connections
2 Golgari Charm
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Duress
2 Vraska the Unseen
1 Mutilate
2 Ground Seal

[/deck]
Geoff Tucker, TCG Spring States 2013 – Top 4 Arkansas
[deck]

Creatures – 13
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
1 Disciple of Bolas
Other Spells - 17
4 Sign in Blood
1 Putrefy
3 Tragic Slip
3 Mutilate
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Victim of Night
Planeswalkers - 6
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
Land – 24
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
14 Swamp
2 Golgari Guildgate
Sideboard – 15
2 Underworld Connections
2 Golgari Charm
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Duress
2 Vraska the Unseen
1 Mutilate
2 Ground Seal

[/deck]
RCWRaspy’s Take on The Rock
[deck]

Creatures – 14
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4
Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
2 Disciple of Bolas
Other Spells - 17
3 Sign in Blood
2 Cremate
1 Putrefy
3 Tragic Slip
3 Mutilate
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Victim of Night
Planeswalkers - 5
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
Land – 24
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
14 Swamp
2 Golgari Guildgate
Sideboard – 15
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
2 Cremate
1 Mutilate
1 Victim of Night
1 Tragic Slip
1 Staff of Nin

[/deck]
Michael Jacob's Stream List
[deck]
Lands
1 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
11 Swamp

Creatures
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
2 Disciple of Bolas

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

Others
3 Sign in Blood
3 Mutilate
2 Tragic Slip
2 Doom Blade
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy

Sideboard
2 Demonic Rising
2 Underworld Connections
1 Deadbridge Chant
1 Mutilate
2 Gaze of Granite
3 Duress
1
Liliana of the Veil
1 Golgari Charm
2 Vampire Nighthawk
[/deck]
Sideboarding
Sideboarding
Against Aggro: - Cremate, -Sign in Blood, +Extra copies of the MB removal spells

Against Midrange: -Abrupt Decay, +Appetite for Brains

Against Control: -Removal, +Appetite, Duress, Staff of Nin, Pithing Needle (esper and Aetherling)
Matchups
Matchups
TO BE UPDATED
Additional Resources
Additional Resources
TCGPlayer Frank Lepore’s Write-Up and Videos: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11151

Top 4 Arkansas States Write-Up: http://magic.
tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11177

Star City Brian Braun-Duin Write-Up (scroll down): http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26 ... agame.html

Star City Deck Tech with Robbie Cordell: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/cov ... obbie.html
Thank you for reading through my description of The Rock as an archetype in the current Standard format. I hope it’s helpful, and please comment or ask questions to get the thread going. My apologies for no Mountains.
Last edited by rcwraspy on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Postby rcwraspy » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:08 pm

Saved.
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Postby rcwraspy » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:49 pm

Updated sideboard in my list.
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Postby rcwraspy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:31 pm

I've started running the deck through the current gauntlet. The meta has changed a good deal since it was first seen, even though that was only a few weeks ago. Voice of Resurgence does that, I guess. I'll update the Matchups section when I have the results - likely a week or so. But at the beginning of the gauntlet, I feel this deck is fairly well positioned right now. There's not much it can't deal with, and properly played it puts a beating on aggro game 1 and can board to deal with anything games 2 and 3.

I find mulligans in game 1 against an unknown opponent the most challenging thing about the deck. You generally want to see:
3 land
2 removal
1 non-bolas creature
1 X

And in that mix you want to see at least 1 of: Mutilate, Geralf's Messenger, Thragtusk, Desecration Demon, or
Liliana of the Veil as the creatures/removals/X.
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Postby rcwraspy » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:14 am

FNM Report.

Went 3-1, coming in 2nd place out of 24 people. FNMs usually have a larger pull at this LGS but they were reaching firecode capacity so much that they split the times and draft is 6:30 and standard at 10pm, so there are fewer folks but it seems more competitive.

[deck]
Creatures - 14
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
2 Disciple of Bolas

Removal - 12
1 Putrefy
2 Victim of Night
3 Tragic Slip
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mutilate

Draw/Utility - 5
3 Sign in Blood
2 Cremate

Planeswalkers - 5
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless

Land - 24
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
14 Swamp

Sideboard - 15
1 Tragic Slip
1 Victim of Night
1 Mutilate
1 Staff of Nin
2 Cremate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Appetite for Brains
[/deck]

Matchups:
Round 1: Naya Midrange: 2-1
Round 2: UWR Midrange: 2-0
Round 3: UWR Flash Control: 0-2
Round 4: Gruul
Aggro: 2-0

Round 1: Naya Midrange: 2-1

Game 1 was basically a bye for me. He kept a 2 lander that included Cavern naming human but never picked up his 3rd land. He discarded Thragtusk and Rancor before the game ended, and that was all I saw of his deck.

Sideboard: I didn't see enough to put him on a specific deck. Forest, Cavern, Thrag, Rancor was all I saw. Because Cavern named Human I thought maybe he was on the old Humanimator deck. I kept the 2x Cremate MB and swapped Abrupt Decay for 3x Appetite for Brains.

Game 2 was very different. I flooded out and couldn't stop a Huntmaster from flipping, and that ended up being lethal. Other, less important stuff happened before that. But I saw the deck. Domri, Huntmaster, Silverblade Paladin, Kessig, Gavony Township, etc.

Game 3 I brought more removal back, ditched Cremate, and kept 2x Appetite. The deck played the way it was supposed to, and I battled through soulbonded things, Voices, and Domris.


Round 2: UWR Midrange: 2-0


This guy was a friend of a friend and I overheard them discussing their decks. He was running Geist of St Traft, Reckoner, Resto, Thundermaw, Aurelia.

Game 1: I made sure my 7 had good removal, which it did. I steamrolled him this game. What? You don't want to attack with Geist and be blocked by Desecration Demon, or Messenger, or Thragtusk, or even Disciple's 2 power? Aww, poor Geistypoo.

Game 2: I drowned him in card advantage and never let him keep a board presence. Staff of Nin came out at the end to finish him off after a removal war. Getting an opponent to 6, dropping a Messenger that gets exiled, then pinging for 1 4 turns in a row to win still feels good - a win's a win.

Round 3: UWR Flash Control: 0-2

I hadn't scouted this guy and had no idea what he was playing.

Game 1: Kept a 7 that was 3 land, 3 removal, 1 Liliana. Didn't get enough threat density and died to Snapcaster and Resto Angel.

Sideboard: I
didn't see a Planeswalker or Aetherling so only brought in Duress and Staff of Nin here. Never drew them.

Game 2: This was a very grindy game, but he cast Sphinx's Revelation about 5 times. He never got over 20 life because of the attrition I was giving him, but the card advantage and lifegain was too much to overcome. After a Mutilate taking out his 2x Resto and 1x Snapcaster along with my Undead Messenger and Beast Token, he ended up beating me down with 2 more Resto Angels.

Round 4: Gruul Aggro: 2-0

I didn't even get to sit down before this guy said "so here's the deal, I'm undefeated." He was pressuring me to draw. The store gives the promo card to 1st and 2nd place but then distributes store credit based on record, paying in tiers down to 2-1-1. I was 2-1 at the time, and he was 3-0. If I took the draw I'd still get credit, but not much. If I won I'd get twice as much credit as the draw. If I lost I wouldn't get anything at 2-2.

I knew what
deck he was on and played. He gave me grief about it, which is why I didn't feel bad about...

Game 1: He's on the play and slams down Stromkirk Noble. The gesture was completely "in your face". Swamp go. Attack Stromkirk. Tragic Slip. "Oh crap, what deck are you playing?" I ended up removing all his threats and getting through with a Demon for 2 attacks before he double spear'd it. Then I dropped Messenger followed by Thragtusk and it was over.

Sideboard: I board out 2x Cremate and 1x Sign in Blood and bring in my 4th copies of Tragic Slip and Mutilate and my 3rd Victim of Night

Game 2: He's on the play again, but he mulled to 6 and didn't have a turn 1 play. I removed some early things. I had a Liliana out that attacked his hand hoping to get rid of a Ghor-Clan Rampager, which it did. Next turn I droped a Thragtusk, which got met with a Skullcrack. Ok, that's fine - just want him for the beats at this point anyway. I forget exactly the turn progression here,
but at some point he had a board state of Hellrider, Firefist Striker, and Rakdos Cackler against Liliana at 4 and my Thragtusk. He tries to move into his attack step but before that, during the main phase, I Abrupt Decay the Firefist Striker. Now my Thragtusk is an active blocker and Hellrider triggers alone aren't enough against either Liliana or me. He passes turn without an attack. I drop Garruk Relentless, and fight the cackler, killing it and flipping Garruk, leaving him with only Hellrider. Liliana -2, sac Hellrider. Attack with Thragtusk. He died to Thragtusk beatdowns. I haven't had an opponent that upset at me in a while.

A decent night all in all. I need to figure out that UWR Flash Control matchup. The UWR Midrange variant seems like a piece of cake for our deck with all the removal and big bodies we have, along with more card advantage than they have since they're more midrange than control.
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Postby Kazekirimaru » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:21 am

Awesome primer. ^^ Good work. This deck is looking more and more well positioned by the moment.
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Postby rcwraspy » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:57 pm

Haven't posted here in a bit, so thought I'd drop in a quick update. I'll post more detail about these matches later when I have access to my notes.

On June 21st I took it to and FNM and went 2-1-1. The draw was to UWR control and was one of the more fun games I've played in a long time.

On June 29th took my list to a PTQ and went 4-4. My friend was doing well so I kept playing instead of dropping.

I thought I'd see more Jund and Aggro, but instead the room was packed with Esper and UWR control decks, with some R/g Aggro and Naya Midrange filling in the spots.

After extensive playing I figured these are the odds for the deck:
80% to win vs. aggro
60% to win vs. Jund Midrange or Junk Reanimator
50/50 vs. Esper or UWR control

That sort of played out. My wins came against 3 Aggro decks and a UWR control, my losses to Naya Midrange, Esper Control, and 2x UWR Control. The first UWR control he won on T3 of
extra turns in game 3. The second UWR control he won game 1 and we drew game 2 (went to time), so he ended up winning the match.

I guessed wrong for the meta of the PTQ, but the deck performed around what I've figured the odds to be.

Here's the current list:
[deck]
Creatures - 14
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
2 Disciple of Bolas

Removal - 12
3 Tragic Slip
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Victim of Night
1 Putrefy
3 Mutilate

Draw - 5
2 Cremate
3 Sign in Blood

Planeswalkers - 5
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless

Land - 24
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
14 Swamp

Sideboard - 15
2 Pithing Needle
3 Appetite for Brains
2 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
2 Crypt Incursion
1 Mutilate
2 Vraska the Unseen
1 Deadbridge Chant
1 Staff of Nin
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Postby photodyer » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:12 am

I've been playing around with the deck for a few weeks...I like black-based control, though the deck lacks reach at the moment. Not so after M14...Sanguine Bond and Corrupt both offer means of attacking life totals outside of combat.

What I'm wondering is whether there's enough upside to considering a shift to Junk colors to go all-in on the lifegain theme. Blood Baron is a powerful card that's looking for the right home, and Resto blinking Tusk with Sanguine Bond in play would be pure comedy. You can build a reasonable black-heavy mana base that keeps the same number of Swamps (19) as BG (21 black sources rather than 25), but I'm not sure if the gains offset the risks. It may be that straight BW Control makes more sense for such a theme even with the loss of Tusk. Hmmmm....
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Postby Midnight_v » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:35 pm

This will be my go - to deck when "U" based control becomes a thing again.

I like this because it has such game vs everything
I long to add slaughter games though
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:49 pm

This will be my go - to deck when "U" based control becomes a thing again.

I like this because it has such game vs everything
I long to add slaughter games though
What about the deck specifically makes you think it will be matched well against U based control?

Right now I'd rate the matchups for this deck as such:

Favorable against Aggro
50/50 against Jund and Reanimator
Unfavorable against Esper and UWR Control

Our maindeck is constructed specifically to lay waste to aggro's field of critters, and our SB is stacked against control because game 1 we fold to them unless we get an aggressive creature-heavy hand.
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Postby Mcdonalds » Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:57 am

Should we be replacing victim of night with doom blade?

My guy right now actually says no, Victim of Night/Doom Blade are both bad against the same decks (r/b decks), but Victim can kill Rakdos cakler and Obzedat.

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Postby rcwraspy » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:42 pm

Should we be replacing victim of night with doom blade?

My guy right now actually says no, Victim of Night/Doom Blade are both bad against the same decks (r/b decks), but Victim can kill Rakdos cakler and Obzedat.
In my opinion, Victim remains the best 2CC removal spell. Here are the large impact creatures that each card does not hit. "Large impact" is purely subjective, but I'm basing it on the cards I feel see tier 1 play.

Victim Doesn't Hit:
Olivia
Falkenrath
Huntmaster
Blood Artist

Doom Blade Doesn't Hit:
Olivia
Falkenrath
Obzedat
Blood Artist
Varolz
Cartel Aristocrat

So those are the big guys. There are tons of little role-players out there. Neither card can hit Geralf's Messenger, for example. But
my opinion is that there are fewer vampires/zombies/werewolves in tier 1 decks than there are black creatures. The biggest target that Doom Blade can hit that Victim can't is probably Huntmaster. I think Doom Blade can certainly come in as extra removal, but probably doesn't take Victim's place until rotation. I have 1x Putrefy MB and 1x Putrefy SB, Doom Blade may take 1 of those spots.
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Postby photodyer » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:15 am

Jeff Hoogland's updated list from the Somerset SCG Invi is interesting:

B/G Midrange - Jeff Hoogland
8th Place, SCG Invitational 7/27/13


[deck]
Creatures (17)
4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thragtusk

Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (25)
13 Swamp
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery

Spells (14)
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Devour Flesh
1 Putrefy
2 Tragic Slip
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Mutilate
2 Sign in Blood


Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Deadbridge Chant
1 Underworld Connections
1 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
1 Tragic Slip
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Duress
1 Increasing Ambition
2 Mutilate
1 Sever the Bloodline
[/deck]

Obviously the list is very prepared for game 1 against Jund, as would be expected for that event.
Lifebane Zombie lacks the resilience and reach of Messenger, but Intimidate means that he's running past the blockers for a significant number of decks. I'm not sure how I feel about moving Garruk Relentless out, but I do like Scavenging Ooze as he's very synergistic with the game plan. Hoogland said in the deck tech that he would likely pitch Deadbridge Chant for another UC as he worried about decking himself in the control matches where he wanted the CA. I also think I want at least one more card that can deal with planeswalkers. Second-guessing aside, the archetype evidently still has legs in the meta and seems to have gained some new flexibility from M14.
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Postby Yarpus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:36 am

Deadbridge Chant is really strong CA and recursion engine. It doesn't actually require you to run mill. Maybe Deathrite Shaman would be nice to be able to garden the GY a bit (turn spells you don't want back into Shocks and bad creatures into lifegain).
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:14 pm

Thanks for the posts guys - and Photo, thanks for posting Hoogland's SCG Invi list. Here are my thoughts on the points raised.

1. Mutilate is the back-bone of this deck. We build around this one card, or we just give up and play Jund. Because of this, I question certain inclusions:
a. Lifebane Zombie over Messenger just doesn't feel right to me. But it seems like it's really doing work right now. It's important to note, though, that Hoogland lost his first match in the top8 and would have likely won had the Lifebanes been Messengers. That said, who knows whether he would have made top8 with that switch. I think they're both powerful, and would like to see 2-4 copies of each in the 75. I'm just not sure what the right mix is. Both die equally to Pillar, but aside from Pillar, Messenger is much more resilient, and lets you Mutilate while keeping board presence. Lifebane is matchup dependent, but in this
meta it still hits quite a few things.
b. With all our removal, Scavenging Ooze can quickly grow out of Mutilate range so may be a good MB inclusion. It's hard to hit a green on T2, even though we do play Abrupt Decay.
c. Watch out with Deathrite Shaman. I just don't think he works here. He won't ever grow like Ooze so once we Mutilate, which we almost always want to do, he's done for.
d. Mutavault survives a Mutilate, which rocks. But it makes Messenger harder to hit, which is likely why people choose Lifebane instead.

2. Deadbridge Chant. Ooze can thin a graveyard almost as well as Shaman can (Ooze needs green regardless of card type), and the plus is that he can potentially survive Mutilate. Ooze in the main makes Chant better to reduce the randomness of your "draw." However, Chant has some problems. First, we really only ever bring it in against control, but they have counterspells and we're trying to drop a bomb on T6. It's fairly easily countered, which is
why I usually bring in Staff of Nin and Vraska along with it - creating multiple "bombs" for a hand that likely has a max of 2 counters. Also, Chant and Staff both are bad against Esper (if that's even a thing anymore). Underworld Connections seems like a better option here because it comes out much earlier and you can decide whether or when to activate it. It also helps give a mana sink if you're flooding a bit.

3. Garruk Relentless isn't in Hoogland's list. Honestly, I think that as Messenger goes, so goes Garruk. That's not to say that Messenger is our only Garruk target, but it's often one of the best. I've already lost count of the number of games I've won with my opponent at 2 and a stalled board state only to sac a creature, call "Messenger" and they scoop. Without Messenger you're tutoring a threat in the Demon, card draw in Disciple, or reactively gaining life with Thragtusk. None bad plays, but certainly more reactive than Messenger. That said, I really do
like the army of wolves Garruk can pump out.

4. I really don't like multiple copies of Lifebane. Multiple Messenger is awesome because they can't ALL get a Pillar (well, they can, but it's not likely) and they all immediately help our plan. Multiple Lifebanes just hurt, especially against anything running black creatures.

5. Dealing with Planeswalkers - I still have 2 Pithing Needle in my board for planeswalkers, utility lands, Olivia, and Aetherling. Vraska helps a lot here as well.
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Postby photodyer » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:29 pm

Return comments:

-Lifebane all-in makes sense based on Hoogland's estimation of the metagame he was going to face. It kicks the crap out of most midrange decks because they are running big green a/o white and in the case of Naya have no black. The card also works against Gruul in snagging some of their best damage sources and putting them on a clock since they can't block the beater. I agree that Messenger is more resilient and absolutely synergistic, but the two zombies mix and match as you suggested based on a given meta.

-Deadbridge is a strong card, but Hoogland's specific comment was that when he needed it (control mu's) the games went so long he was afraid of decking himself. UC is the option he suggested, but that gets scary with Acidic Slime still being a card.

-Ooze seems natural in the deck as it does so many different things in different mu's. With all the removal we run, it can get stupid quick;
having only 10 green sources is our one issue with it.

-Agree with another copy of Needle and possibly another Vraska in the 75.

-Mutavault is comedy in this deck; kill their stuff then swing in uncontested, rinse and repeat.
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Postby rcwraspy » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:09 pm

Great points, Photo - thanks for keeping the conversation going!

It looks like a version of this deck showed up in the World Cup this past week. It was much closer to Hoogland's version with the Lifebanes mainboard. I'd have to fiddle around with SB spaces, but I almost think that if we MB Lifebane, Messenger in some number should be in the SB. He's much better in the UW/x matchup, since the only creature Lifebane will nab is Resto. It's still great to see their hands, but that's a removal deck as well.
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:07 pm

I just came across a decklist that keeps the same Mainboard that a lot of these lists are running now - Lifebane Zombie, Scavenging Ooze, and Mutavault - but has a transformational sideboard.

Honestly I'm kicking myself for not thinking of this a long time ago. What matchups are hardest for this deck? UW/x control/flash. Well, transform into an aggro deck and just go right under them. Here's a link to the full list that just won a VIP qualifier: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1147234

And here's the SB for those who don't want to click links:

[deck]
Sideboard - 15
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Gravecrawler
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
[/deck]

Against UW/x, this allows you to bring out all of your dead removal (personally I'd leave in Abrupt Decays to deal with
early Augurs and the DSpheres you get slapped with) and board into an aggro strategy to go right under them. Meanwhile they've boarded against a midrange Rock deck, and hopefully that means dead or slower cards.

Against Jund you'd likely do much the same thing, but keeping more removal than against UW/x.

We already have a great MD matchup against aggro, so 1 Sign in Blood or Liliana can come out and the additional Abrupt Decay in, then continue to win.

I really like this. Our previous plans all assumed these matchups:
45/65 against Jund, in their favor
75-80/20-25 against aggro, in our favor
30/70 against UWx, in their favor

And we sideboarded very reactionary cards against Control. That plan could win the games for us, but only because we can match their card draw. The games were still going very long, at which point single plays, draws, etc., can tip the game in either direction. This transformational sideboard plan could potentially tip the scales in our favor.

Thoughts?
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Postby photodyer » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:49 pm

This is too funny...I've been playing around with a black troll deck for FNM with the same concept, transforming from a mid/controllish vampire deck to a zombie aggro deck. I love it conceptually, but I still wonder if it's "enough" after boarding to beat Sphinx's Rev. The effectiveness of the strategy is going to be largely dependent upon how the other guy decides to board; they should be relatively strong against creatures from the start, and if they stay that way, then creatures that like +1 counters are going to be soft against them. They would likely side in Assemble the Legion if they run it, which we can't answer without something like Vraska. And since we run no Caverns, they are going to be able to play their permission game against Zombies. Since we aren't siding in any CA, we're going to be less able to play the long game; if the Zombies can't close the deal quickly, our chances get worse as they
overwhelm us with tempo and draw.

The other point to consider is that the Zombie list is VERY dependent on hitting green sources in your opener; without question, it is going to require some aggressive mulls at times to have a playable hand.

For sake of reference, here's the whole list that wraspy pointed to:


TCGPlayer VIP Golgari Control - Dorian Fladger

[deck]
Creatures
4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thragtusk

Other Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Doom Blade
3 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood
3 Tragic Slip
2 Victim of Night
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen

Lands
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
12 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery

Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
[/deck]

Just for comparison, below is the tweaked list proposed by Brad Nelson. Note that the board is strongly devoted to addressing
control such as UWR and Jund. I don't agree with Brad's 75 completely by any means, but I think his overall strategy is more viable in a broad meta.


Brad Nelson - B/G Midrange

[deck]
Creatures
4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thragtusk

Other Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Devour Flesh
1 Doom Blade
1 Putrefy
2 Tragic Slip
3 Mutilate
3 Sign in Blood
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands
2 Golgari Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Demonic Rising
2 Underworld Connections
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
3 Duress
1 Mutilate
[/deck]
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Postby rcwraspy » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:28 pm

Yes, while it's not the exact same 75 by any means, the overall themes and goals of Brad's deck are what this deck has run for a while now, especially the tailored answers to Control coming from the side. They're incredibly easy swaps too - take out a lot of removal and bring in a lot of control hate.

You mentioned Cavern. I think you could probably sneak a copy or two into the 75 if you really wanted to. Since we've moved away from Geralf's Messenger and to Lifebane Zombie instead, the list has been able to support Mutavault. It should be able to support Cavern of Souls in Muta's spot coming in from the board - in either the standard SB package or a transformational package.
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Postby rcwraspy » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:54 pm

I was over on the Rock's page on Sally and someone mentioned using Grisly Salvage instead of Sign in Blood or Underworld Connections (though it only replaced 1 copy of UC - there was still 1 main and 1 side).

Thoughts?

I think it lets you dig deeper than either of those options, is faster than UC, lets you hold up removal mana on T2 instead of SiB, then Salvage EoT of your opponent, and lets you hit a land if you need it or a dude if you don't. The big downsides include giving away information and discarding potentially needed removal. As well as only giving you a 1-for-1 card swap (no CA).

I don't know if it works here, but I'm going to think about it. It seems like it would be a bigger consideration if we were still using Deadbridge Chant.
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:30 pm

Photo and anybody else reading this thread, I'd like to get your thoughts on another topic for this deck archetype.

Garruk Relentless

Before M14 came out, he was in the 75 of just about every B/g Rock list. I was running 2 main. Now after M14, it seems like he's been cut almost entirely. A few lists will have him as a 1-of, but many folks are main decking Vraska the Unseen over him. I'm wondering why.

I like Garruk a lot. Admittedly, one of my favorite things was to push damage through by sacrificing a Geralf's Messenger to find another copy of Messenger. Undying triggers, cast the new one, opponent takes 4. Now that Lifebane Zombie has taken Messenger's place, this string won't happen.

But I still feel that Relentless has uses against the 3 most popular decks in the format.

1. Against Kibler G/r,
he puts out 2/2 blockers, pings mana dorks, and can put out an army of 1/1 deathtouch wolves. Not exactly menacing, but at the same time, those deathtouch wolves will wreak havoc on their army of larger beats.

2. Against Jund, a 2/2 wolf will trade incredibly well against an unflipped Huntmaster or its 2/2 wolf. The 1/1 Deathtouch wolves also help against a Huntmaster (flipped or not), wolves, Thragtusks, Beasts.

3. Against UWr, he's full of inevitability. When they can answer most of our threats, it's incredibly valuable to have the ability to put out a 2/2 wolf every turn.

Thoughts?
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Postby photodyer » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:20 pm

Vraska got bumped up to main because she can kill planeswalkers, which is one of the weak points of the deck. A big Garruk can wreck this deck, as can an uncontested Tamiyo; the Jund matchup is of course the primary consideration. Also, as you pointed out, Relentless doesn't synergize quite as much with the current lists. Personally, I think he's still great in the deck; I think he just got pushed out in some people's minds. He still shows up in some versions of the deck, like this one by mikev1919 that took down a Premiere Event and a 2nd in a Daily recently:

[deck]
LANDS
14 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Golgari Guildgate

CREATURES
4 Thragtusk
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Scavenging Ooze


OTHER SPELLS
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood
3 Victim of Night
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Murder
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

SIDEBOARD
1
Abrupt Decay
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Underworld Connections
[/deck]

He's also only playing 24 land, and no Mutavaults...
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:42 pm

And it's important to note he's also still on Geralf's Messenger.

Would you do a full 4 for 4 swap of Messenger and Lifebane, or some split? I wouldn't mind doing 3 Lifebane, 1 Messenger, 1 Vraska, 1 Relentless MB, with another Vraska in the side. Those all take the places of what used to be 4 Messenger and 2 Relentless MB for me.
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Postby photodyer » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:14 pm

Meta-dependent I would think. Lifebane is likely a good bet going into an unknown meta or if you have a bunch of folks that like to play Naya/Junk/Jund like I have at my LGS. I'm personally not much for 1-ofs below the specialization of creatures seen generally at 4CMC or better and planeswalkers, but that's just my own hang-up about consistency (e.g., drawing into a singleton Messenger against a Reanimator deck that proceeds to beat me with a hard-cast angel is the sort of thing that puts me on tilt). Relentless OTOH seems perfectly reasonable as a 1-of because he's never going to be a "bad" card unless you lack the mana to cast him. He excels in some cases more than others, but so does any card. I'm waffling because I think that 5-6 is the "right" number of PW's total for the game plan and Lili's really can't be cut (at least not if you have as many Spiky Hexproof players as we do here).
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:01 pm

Agreed re: not cutting Lili. For me, she's a 3-of MB without question. The only question mark is whether or not to put a 4th in the side.

Here's a decklist that Michael Jacobs has been streaming with:

[deck]
Lands
1 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
11 Swamp

Creatures
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
2 Disciple of Bolas

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

Others
3 Sign in Blood
3 Mutilate
2 Tragic Slip
2 Doom Blade
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy

Sideboard
2 Demonic Rising
2 Underworld Connections
1 Deadbridge Chant
1 Mutilate
2 Gaze of Granite
3 Duress
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Golgari Charm
2 Vampire Nighthawk
[/deck]

I like it, except that I question the Nighthawks in the side. Are they really necessary with all the removal our deck packs? I assume it's in there because it's an
easy swap with Lifebane in a few matches (like UWr, maybe), but I'd rather an extra copy of Golgari Charm and probably a third either Tragic Slip or Abrupt Decay. Sideboard changes are very meta-dependent, though.
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Postby photodyer » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:37 pm

VNH in the side is all about facing fast Rx Aggro, which is very prevalent on MTGO. VNH eats the X/1's and X/2's that are common in the early turns of these decks, offers a little lifegain even in a trade and in general slows down the bleeding against blitzing decks to allow you the time to get the big game or Mutilate online. Even if you have to trash VNH with your own Mutilate, you can swing in before casting it to get the life bump.
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:09 pm

VNH in the side is all about facing fast Rx Aggro, which is very prevalent on MTGO. VNH eats the X/1's and X/2's that are common in the early turns of these decks, offers a little lifegain even in a trade and in general slows down the bleeding against blitzing decks to allow you the time to get the big game or Mutilate online. Even if you have to trash VNH with your own Mutilate, you can swing in before casting it to get the life bump.
Makes sense, but coming from playing R/g aggro and Naya Blitz to playing B/g Rock, I never had an issue playing Messengers, never having VNH in my 75, and completely trouncing the blitz aggro decks. I know the threats and targets like the back of my hand, because I know when I'm playing the R/g deck, which
creatures I want to see live or die. And I know their sequencing. So for me, I've never seen the need for VNH in a deck that packs so much removal. But it makes sense. Kills their threats, gains you life, etc.

I honestly think I'd rather have Lifebane against those decks than VNH. There's no way they can block him, he's taking a Boar or GCR out of their hand, and he can trade pretty effectively with their team if you need him for chump block duty.

Do you think MJ was swapping some Lifebanes for VNH, or bringing them in as added 3-drops?
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Postby photodyer » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:06 pm

Time to get this primer moved, wraspy...I just pulled up Daily results from MTGO for 8/13/13 and 6 of the top 8 decks were BG Midrange. Dayum!

With regards to VNH, I'm bringing my perspective from SOM/ISD Zombies. As vampires were a part of most builds anyway, it was a natural extension to run VNH in the SB for mirrors and fast aggro that tried to capitalize on the poor blocking abilities of our staple creatures. Against Dragonmaster, VNH doesn't die to Tmaw's ETB and thus can at least trade with him/hold him at bay if you're not holding instant-speed removal to get him before the first attack. Overall, VNH straight-up trades with everything in their list and can go over the top of most of their field to kill Domri as well.

Honestly, I'm shooting in the dark, but that's what I see in looking at the decks. As to what comes out...I'm not sure. Lifebane can't snatch Hellkite or Hellrider, but it does still show
you their hand and tell you how to sequence your removal. It also is an auto 3 damage each turn as they cannot block it and have to hope to see one of their few removal spells to kill it. I'm at a loss here...
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Postby Alex » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:30 pm

I'm going to post this here in case it gets lost in the sea of FoS clan posts. I'll delete it later on:



I see one good premier and an SCG top 8 recently? Other than that nothing of note. What am I missing? If the archetype continues to pick up steam on MODO ill definitely bump it up.

Honestly, I'm more inclined to prune 'established' down than add at this point, what with the meta becoming UWR, Jund and Rx Aggro primarily.
It's growing as a control deck, representing (currently) about 8% of the overall control metagame, which includes both paper AND MODO results. I'm sure if we
give it a few weeks it'll prove itself to be a pretty solid archetype, and at that point I assume we'll bump it up. Moderation of the Standard forum isn't really as much a group effort as it is "exercise common sense and discretion" on an individual basis.

The aggro version is still pretty actively awful, though. Can't imagine that will make any waves.

Source: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=324&meta=50

When you click on the link make sure you sort it by "last two weeks."

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Postby photodyer » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:33 am

Alex, as a black control player yourself, what do you see coming out when boarding in VNH?

Also, might Essence Harvest be worth considering as another angle to use with this deck? The creature base makes for the spell to give anywhere from significant to absurd lifeswings without sacrificing any board presence, but at the same time it's not going to help if you have no board and are trying to catch up.
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Postby Alex » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:14 pm

I honestly don't think Geralf's Messenger is better than Vampire Nighthawk. A lot of creatures simply can't beat him, and he is insurance against silly thinks like Thundermaw. You can safely tap out to play him and not have to worry about getting blown out by a random flying fatty.

The way I look at it is this; I played him mainboard for a LONG time and I can't think of a time I ever thought he wasn't good enough to board out in game two. I'd probably board out Geralf's Messenger in any aggro matchup and probably any matchup that I need to keep myself floating near starting life totals. (UWR to dodge the Turn // Burn kill, Jund to stay out of Bonfire range, etc.)

I mean maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't been that impressed with Geralf's Messenger basically ever. Coming in tapped is simply horrendous.

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Postby photodyer » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:20 pm

I honestly don't think Geralf's Messenger is better than Vampire Nighthawk. A lot of creatures simply can't beat him, and he is insurance against silly thinks like Thundermaw. You can safely tap out to play him and not have to worry about getting blown out by a random flying fatty.

The way I look at it is this; I played him mainboard for a LONG time and I can't think of a time I ever thought he wasn't good enough to board out in game two. I'd probably board out Geralf's Messenger in any aggro matchup and probably any matchup that I need to keep myself floating near starting life totals. (UWR to dodge the Turn // Burn kill, Jund to stay out of Bonfire range, etc.)

I mean maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't been that impressed with Geralf's Messenger
basically ever. Coming in tapped is simply horrendous.
You are missing the shift that most took with the deck post M14, which was eschewing Messenger in favor of Lifebane Zombie. Lifebane doesn't have the resilience and reach of Messenger, but his ETB in combination with his evasion in this particular meta is very strong (and you can still feed him to Disciple for 3 life and 3 cards). If we were still playing Messenger, the trade out for VNH would be a no-brainer; but with Lifebane, the lines are blurred. Against Kibler Dragonmaster, for example, Lifebane misses their big cards (Tmaw and Hellrider), but hits everything else and shows you their hand so you can sequence your removal appropriately. Lifebane also puts them on a clock as they have to have removal or die to it as they cannot block it.

Thus my original question...is Lifebane in a Messenger-less list the correct card to side out for VNH when it applies so much pressure? One could argue that they can side in Pillars, but
they should be staying in the beatdown role against us.
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Postby Alex » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:01 pm

Is Lifebane good against those types of decks? I doubt that it is. Lifelink is good but the lack of First Strike is a big loss, and I think this guy is going to be a blocker a lot of the time against aggressive decks since most of their threats are at 1 and 2. That being said, his second ability doesn't seem that relevant either since you're basically just trying to survive their original onslaught until Mutilate hits.

Once you hit Mutilate you basically win the game, these decks can't really slowroll threats too well, especially as your mana grows and your hand develops into the spot-removal beast that it should be. You are super resilient to things like Thundermaw and you don't really care about Hellrider since it is really not that great on its own. Knowing their hand isn't really valuable information since a lot of the time your plan should be to force them to play off of the top regardless of this information.
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Lifebane seems a LOT better against control so that you can swipe cards like Assemble the Legion and Aurelia, the Warleader, because you can actually lose to those cards. I'm pretty sure they often lose to an Indimidate beater, too, since they rely a lot on Snapcaster, Augur, and Moorland Haunt blocks.

All of this being said, I'd absolutely play Nighthawk mainboard and Lifebane sideboard, because I think Nighthawk fares a lot better into an unknown opponent and these two cards to practically the same thing as beaters. The obvious breaking point in the sideboard is how relevant their unique abilities are. I like Nighthawk because he often dissuades my opponent from attacking, but there are arguments for both.

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Postby rcwraspy » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Lifebane Zombie can only take white or green creature cards, so Assemble, being an enchantment, sits safely in their hand. Though of course, knowing it's there lets us hold back a Mutilate or Gaze or Ratchet Bomb if we can survive doing so. Or better yet, cutting it off at the source with a Golgari Charm.

Lifebane instead of Nighthawk is a concession to Jund being the most popular deck choice right now. Removing Huntmaster or Thragtusk from their hand is incredibly important, whereas a Nighthawk just gets stolen by Olivia. But it also helps against big Naya, Dragonmaster G/r, and to an extent control that has white. Top cards it hits:

Huntmaster
Thragtusk
Restoration Angel
Loxodon Smiter
Boros Reckoner
Geist of St. Traft
EDIT: Ghor-Clan Rampager, too

I don't know if that big mono-green deck that Melissa DeTora posted is still around, but it obviously does work there too.
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Postby Alex » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:19 pm

I always forget that it doesn't hit noncreature spells, which makes me like it even less. Nighthawk is incredibly good against Jund, as it holds off basically any threat short of Olivia, and acts as additional Doom Blades. Paired with Golgari Charm you can probably get a lot of mileage out of him on his own. It also stops their cute little interaction with Deathtouch and Kessig Wolf Run.

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Postby Alex » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:44 pm

Oh, also, Bloodgift Demon is a card.

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Postby photodyer » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:45 pm

Oh, also, Bloodgift Demon is a card.
I was actually looking at him in a midrange BR build, but all the attention being focused on dealing with Tmaw makes that particular rogue build less exciting at the moment. But to generalize, running big demons as the top end in a 2-color deck like BG opens the door for running Cavern should the UWx drivers start trying to push back into the meta with counters.
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Postby rcwraspy » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:55 pm

Oh, also, Bloodgift Demon is a card.
I was actually looking at him in a midrange BR build, but all the attention being focused on dealing with Tmaw makes that particular rogue build less exciting at the moment. But to generalize, running big demons as the top end in a 2-color deck like BG opens the door for running Cavern should the UWx drivers start trying to push back into the meta with counters.
I thought about Cavern in a mostly-black control splashing green and red deck that was similar to Conley Woods's deck from a few months ago. Desecration Demon, Bloodgift, Nighthawk,
and Olivia let Cavern name either vampire or demon.

The problem with Cavern in builds like these is that we're spell heavy and creature light. If it were the other way around, I'd say go for it. But as it stands, we need to be able to hit abrupt decay, putrefy, dreadbore if you're in red, etc. And Thragtusk is neither a vampire nor a demon, and is important in a lot of these builds.
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Postby photodyer » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:59 am

I don't have anything new to add, but we are having that redirecting issue over here again so I'm posting to see if it will update the cache.
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