Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Pendulum]

Like that is literally the way the world works in the customer service sector.

In transactions, sure. Is unsuspending duder in order? Yeah, probably. But aren't we talking business policy?

[Thrillho]

That's the surface problem. The issue at hand is much deeper than that: he wouldn't be suspended in the first place if the customer service-level policy wasn't to shoot dissidents not bearing flowers and trinkets on sight.

[Azrael]

Care to role-play? I can field this one well enough, I think, and Sene appears to have phased out again.

This isn't the way the world works. Petulance and anger are met with discipline, not open arms and the killing of the fatted calf. Again, there's a difference between acceptance and enabling.

*shrugs*

It's not just theoretical for me, it's a day-to-day practice. It gets results.

Its an uncommon response for human nature, it's "not the way the world works", but it does work.

Like Kijin says, this is elementary customer service. If they start with anger, you counter with being soothing, with reason, and with communication, and with admitting fault where you're to blame. If eventually they prove they're determined to just be mad no matter what you do, you're going to have to write them off, but the very vast
majority of people reciprocate when they're treated with respect and understanding. So you start with that, and it should usually pay off.

The iridium approach at the moment is to presume the people they're dealing with are going to continue to be angry and unreasonable, no matter what, and they skip the whole "understanding and communication and admitting fault" bit. Which is a huge mistake, because it would work well the vast majority of the time if they tried it.

[Kaitscralt]

If we're role playing I want to be Megiddo, weapon of choice: sniper rifle and hunting knife

[Col. Khaddafi]

Pendulum, there's ample evidence that you don't need to resort to discipline.

Sene claims that comparisons with the old WCT team are not warranted because things were calmer then. But they were calmer as a CONSEQUENCE of a different approach to moderation. There is a causality relationship there.

Brandon and myself did all the standard moderation stuff: editing, deleting, warning, even infracting. However, we only resorted to infracting as a last resort, and even them we would word our infraction PM's carefully so as to encourage a change of behavior instead of reprimanding the user for his behavior. Our public discussions in our helpdesks were followed to the content of the people complaining at which point they would end. We never locked a discussion in CI. Never.

Abiding by Sene's theory that WCT used to be good because there weren't people harassing the staff would require you to believe that theformer WCT
mods were lucky enough to have angels posting there during their tenure, and then all of a sudden, shazzam! WCT staff changed, and those angels were replaced by a bunch of malicious posters at the exact same time.

I don't believe in those sort of coincidences...

[Kaitscralt]

I am really disgusted to see the rules I wrote being so blatantly misused. What was I thinking when I agreed to be staff in that place?

"I would never want to be a member of any club that would have me."

[Kaitscralt]

That's why we did it

[Kaitscralt]

In regards to WCT and RLA (which I named by the way, you're welcome Kokusho), you must toss out all timeframes and start a new calendar dating system, BT and AT

[Azrael]

I don't believe in those sort of coincidences...

*nods*

And that's hardly a solitary example. There have been good mods all over the forum who were able to defuse, quell, or altogether prevent drama on their watches, while others caused repeated incidents in the same subs. Same people, but different results, because of a different approach.

[Thrillho]

If we're role playing I want to be Megiddo, weapon of choice: sniper rifle and hunting knife

and i'm superkingcobweb, the best one of the three.

[Pendulum]

@Kijin: Fair point given. I don't think I have to convince anyone here that there is a problem with MTGS, but disassembling that problem is also not a surface problem; you can't expect change to come first from the hordes, it must come from the leadership. If the leadership is to stop being so skittish about how they deal with their customers, shouldn't they be given a chance to speak, instead of just reacting?
@Azrael: Yes, I too seek compassion in my dealings with other people, and it does me well. The problem with that strategy when applied to a business model, however, is that there is no central figurehead, no one person who can speak for the group. The problem then becomes a dichotomy: remove the autonomy of the users, or remove the autonomy of the collective staff. Which group, do you feel, is more important to the continued success over there?
@Madding: More boobs. Good.
@Scumbag: Actually, it's not so
difficult to understand, is it? You and Brandicide provided an atmosphere that was conducive to the posting of a certain group of people, that group that provided fairly few problems; now the atmosphere is conducive to people who have bigger problems and, as such, there is a tendency from this group to be drama queens. Is that inherently better? I'd contend that this is not so: seems to me that the group most benefiting from casual discussion and resolution of their IRL problems would be the latter set of posters, without exception.

[Pendulum]

BTW my uncle just died so thanks for giving me this chance to think about something else for a while.
[srs post, not sarcastic]

[Kaitscralt]

Being a dumb asshole was bound to catch up to him after so many years

[Kaitscralt]

Now go share war stories with Baguy damnit soldier I'm going to get you through this

[Azrael]

@Azrael: Yes, I too seek compassion in my dealings with other people, and it does me well. The problem with that strategy when applied to a business model, however, is that there is no central figurehead, no one person who can speak for the group. The problem then becomes a dichotomy: remove the autonomy of the users, or remove the autonomy of the collective staff. Which group, do you feel, is more important to the continued success over there?

I don't think there's any problem whatsoever applying that to business. I mean, the term public relations came from businesses recognizing the importance and value of this approach.

I think you can pick any spokesperson you like with a halfway decent understanding of customer service, turn them loose, and they should be able to minimize the drama even if the ultimate decision was to take no
action on the userbase's issues.

Yukora did a pretty sweet job at that, back in the day. He still had to defer/converse with Mikey and Icon, but he was the designated hitter for CI drama and was able to engage with the users and make them feel that they were actually having a conversation with someone. Nai was pretty good too, in his day.

PPE: Sorry to hear that.

[Thrillho]

@Kijin: Fair point given. I don't think I have to convince anyone here that there is a problem with MTGS, but disassembling that problem is also not a surface problem; you can't expect change to come first from the hordes, it must come from the leadership. If the leadership is to stop being so skittish about how they deal with their customers, shouldn't they be given a chance to speak, instead of just reacting?

If you don't know what you're reacting to, why are you reacting in the first place? If you don't know what you're talking about, why are you talking in the first place?

If the issue is "Someone is critical and angry but they are not critical or angry in a way I can immediately piece out as constructive to any party
involved," why are you being critical and angry in a way that is not immediately constructive to any party involved in the first place?

If you want to not be skittish with the way you deal with customers, the way to do that is to not be skittish with the way you deal with customers. It is not to hold a summit. It is not to curl up in the fetal position and cry about how mean everyone is. It is not to start slapping everyone who disagrees with you or talks out of turn in the face.

If you want to get to the bottom of something, go to the bottom of it.

This is common sense, not backend coding, we're talking about here.

[The Dark Guardian]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=477742

Why does someone who does not agree with your viewpoint have to be 'trolling'?

I honestly expected them to immediately reverse the ruling and maybe bust Teia's chops a little bit. Not so much.

Do you have a point to make, Azreal?

[Pendulum]

@Az: Ah, here we go. We come to one of the basic problems: the staff delights, is positively orgasmic, about the amount of say they get to have in the way the site is operating... we see this in the original leak most clearly, the Admins wanted their lower staff's input on whether or not to "approve of" Curse. If they introduce a figurehead, they risk doing away with that culture. Surely you can see the problem with having worthless staff?
@Thrillho: Because the staff wishes to improve things, is why they're reacting (and proactive, apparently). They feel they need to put out fires, and quickly, so that they can get back to building a place that is immune to further fires. That's a substantially longer view, but can it be any worse than where they're at now?

[Pendulum]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=477742

Why does someone who does not agree with your viewpoint have to be 'trolling'?

I honestly expected them to immediately reverse the ruling and maybe bust Teia's chops a little bit. Not so much.

Do you have a point to make, Azreal?

Please don't play Mafia here.

Edit- My apologies TCM. I spoke in haste. Please do understand, though,
that it is tiring to hear this same sort of accusation over and over again.

[Col. Khaddafi]

They feel they need to put out fires, and quickly, so that they can get back to building a place that is immune to further fires. That's a substantially longer view, but can it be any worse than where they're at now?

Except the approach seems to be "lets burn this place to the ground, then we can figure out how to build a better fireproof house".

I am really disgusted to see the rules I
wrote being so blatantly misused. What was I thinking when I agreed to be staff in that place?

"I would never want to be a member of any club that would have me."

In retrospect I think I might have been too naïve by producing such a set of streamlined RLA rules, because I assumed these would be enforced by normal people.

I can only hope that ExpiredRascals is reviewing this ruleset as we speak, expanding it so that the current WCT mod team can properly refer to it in every possible scenario. I think a 10page ruleset should cover about every possible scenario and precluding any future WCT issues.

[Kaitscralt]

Remember what I told you about CI Sene.

[Pendulum]

They feel they need to put out fires, and quickly, so that they can get back to building a place that is immune to further fires. That's a substantially longer view, but can it be any worse than where they're at now?

Except the approach seems to be "lets burn this place to the ground, then we can figure out how to build a better fireproof house".

Bibi and KCW's presence certainly is unavoidably obvious, isn't it?

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

I am really disgusted to see the rules I wrote being so blatantly misused. What was I thinking when I agreed to be staff in that place?

you were blinded thinking Hey I could do some good and help out and make it good

[Kaitscralt]

No he's just a power hungry snob

[Thrillho]

@Thrillho: Because the staff wishes to improve things, is why they're reacting (and proactive, apparently). They feel they need to put out fires, and quickly, so that they can get back to building a place that is immune to further fires. That's a substantially longer view, but can it be any worse than where they're at now?

Ok, I get that the thing they are doing is reacting, I get that they want to improve things, but the two aren't mutually inclusive.

Both you and Sene, and I as a result, have raised that the staff are generally clueless to what they're reacting to aside from "Someone is mad about something someone else did."

Instead of merely reacting with whatever reaction seems immediately appropriate, which in this
case is very questionably dropping hammers and red cards, there's more to be gained from taking stock of a situation.

Someone is mad.

Someone else did something.

Why are they mad? What did someone else do?

What can I do as your representative/customer service agent/administrator? What can you do in this situation?

What middle ground can we accomplish together? What problems can we not solve at this time? What problems require additional effort? Whose part do they require additional effort from?

Is this resolution beneficial to the greater forum? Is there some adverse effect -- expected or unexpected -- that will come from this? Is the benefit of this direction of resolution better than doing nothing and/or do the costs of implementing this resolution outweigh any of the adverse effects we're expecting?

Asking these questions in the present forestalls pages of posts, walls of text, summits, threads, threats, and additional vitriol in the future. It tempers present ire and prevents the
fire one person had from spreading onto others. It stops the current problem and, if you systematically address the ins and outs of that problem/resolution, prevents future problems from cropping up. That is forward thinking, addressing the problems of the now with later outcomes in mind.

[Thrillho]

also don't tell me they're not clueless because sene literally came in here and the actual words he said was that he stops reading things when he sees people are being vitriolic

[Azrael]

Do you have a point to make, Azreal?

If you're interested in having a conversation, feel free to read the last few pages of the thread, TCM. I would be happy to discuss it with you.

I don't have any particular bones to pick with Teia as a person, if that's what you're implying.

However, I also didn't have any personal issues with Mandershex, still consider her a friend, but as she's well aware, I repeatedly advocated disciplinary/probationary/termination action against her as a moderator because I felt she was having a negative effect in that capacity. I have similar qualms regarding Teia, and I think upper level staff should be keeping a closer and more critical eye on the situation than they have been up to this point.

@Az: Ah, here we go. We come to one of the basic problems: the staff delights, is positively orgasmic, about the amount of say they get to have in the way the site is operating... we see this in the original leak most clearly, the Admins wanted their lower staff's input on whether or not to "approve of" Curse. If they introduce a figurehead, they risk doing away with that culture. Surely you can see the problem with having worthless staff?

That might be a tad harsh. However, I don't really see the conflict between allowing staff to have their say, and having a trusted spokesperson such as Yukora or an admin to engage the userbase. We've had it both ways before.

I do agree that there seems to be a good number of staff members who do think that staff members themselves ought to be the driving force behind setting site policy, instead of the userbase, and seem to derive a level of satisfaction from being
counted as leaders on the site, getting their way, considering themselves more important/more far-sighted than the regular run of the mill users, respect the mod tag, etc. etc.

[Thrillho]

tl;dr: don't be shortsighted or be prepared for the same problems to keep popping up because you never took the time to effectively address them the last time they came up

edit: and don't bury your head in the sand lamenting the greek tragedy that has befallen you when your repeat problems keep happening.

[NoHomers]

It's funny how the advice to iridium is better than the advice from iridium ITT.

[Kaitscralt]

We're just talking Sene off a ledge, it's same old same old

[Azrael]

They should sticky your posts ITT in the ML, Kijin.

[Kaitscralt]

Shhh can't you see the size of his head already

[Pendulum]

...Yup, can't do it, lol. I mean, if there were some reason to keep change to a maximum I'd have a leg to stand on but Kijin pretty much wins here.

[Kaitscralt]

You've killed us

[Pendulum]

Yeah I know. Onar's site still has positions available, Kaitscralt, you should go there before Kijin braincrushes you.

[Col. Khaddafi]

@Scumbag: Actually, it's not so difficult to understand, is it? You and Brandicide provided an atmosphere that was conducive to the posting of a certain group of people, that group that provided fairly few problems; now the atmosphere is conducive to people who have bigger problems and, as such, there is a tendency from this group to be drama queens. Is that inherently better? I'd contend that this is not so: seems to me that the group most benefiting from casual discussion and resolution of their IRL problems would be the latter set of posters, without exception.

I let this one skip, sorry.

Pendulum, as flattered as I may be by your suggestion that our brand of moderation only encouraged gentlemen to post in WCT, whereas the current
moderation team would only give incentive for angsty teenagers to post there, I want to believe that myself and Brandon never imposed any tone or brand of posting there. Contrary to that recent aborted attempt at setting up a "friendlier" WCT without casual racism and the support of slavery, we never thought about ourselves more than the simple custodians/janitors of a virtual internet space.

[Thrillho]

It's funny how the advice to iridium is better than the advice from iridium ITT.

i am a very powerful mage.

[Thrillho]

Yeah I know. Onar's site still has positions available, Kaitscralt, you should go there before Kijin braincrushes you.

overwhelming intellect

[Kaitscralt]

God damn it

[Thrillho]

Magic: the Gathering is a collectible card game in which you are an all-powerful planeswalker who is attempting to duel other powerful planeswalkers for control over the multiverse. At your disposal are creatures, spells, artifacts, enchantments, and even the help of other planeswalkers. You must use these tools to overcome your opponents and claim victory.