Dies to Removal

Me? Well, I haven't played Burn in my meta beyond a couple of FNMs and those were months ago (before JOU), but when I did run it I played a full set of Reckoners in my sideboard along with two Spark Trooper (would not play Spark Trooper now though). Reckoner is a little worse than it was before since it lines up poorly against their now established postboard plan of bringing in a couple of Doom Blades as 1B: Gain two life + Time Walk for Phoenix and they'll definitely be keeping in Abrupt Decay for Chains and Phoenix. That said it does increase threat density and if you can force them to play those spells
early and resolve a Reckoner midgame you're golden. As a GR/Jund Monsters player myself (and having played against Burn a bit) I can tell you I never want to see a Reckoner across the table and it's the best thing you can be playing against me.

Of note, I was also running the full four Chained to the Rocks as a concession to just how lopsided my meta was. I would never do that at an Open though.

Nice! Thanks for the tip.

I have been running 4 Chains/1 Mortors since the Shouta list came out and have been very pleased with it.

Now that Black is shifting back to Mono Black and not B/g- chains is even better.

You guys are def right about Reckoner over Flamespeaker for green- I just really want to play Flamespeaker but I probably shouldnt try that at an Open.

I don't know if shifting back to mono black is actually good for us, at least in my (small) experience. They were mostly running Abrupt Decay in place of Bile Blight and get to smack 'em in the face for
4 a turn was really nice. I agree that Chained to the Rocks is not nearly as reliable as it is against mono black, but after Reprisal, Banishing Light and Chained to the Rocks, for me was more than enough to make up for it, add to the equation G/B have a (not so much, but still) less reliable mana base; Nightveil Specter instead of Lifebane Zombie to block the Phoenix and makes us waste 3 point burn spell on it, to a more consistent deck, without considering we might see a return of Staff of Death Magus if burn picks up it's flame again, I'd gladly continue to face G/B Devo only.
I understand my experience is not nearly as much as some of you, but that's my point of view. No right or wrong, just a different perspective.

I always welcome my opponent running Staff for free mulligans.

Anyone running Pyromancer would rather see Staff of the Dead Card than Golgari Charm.

Flamspeaker, too dope.

Yeah, flamespeaker likes durdling too. Guy plays staff, I hit you for two and get two free cards? Sure, go ahead.

Bg is hands down better vs burn. Regardless of what build I have run. I like all traditional matchups more than their +1 color counterparts. Jund vs. GR, esper vs UW, Bx devotion vs mono B, Ux devotion vs. Mono U, Rakdos aggro vs mono Red. The access to additional cards screws with our sideboard.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing burn right or if my play style is that different. Dang, maybe is time for me to either A)Learn to burn or B)play something different. And for reals, I'm not being sarcastic. Mono black is by far my worse match up and my win/loss ratio against it is ridiculous... And yep, I have read the whole topic, I just haven't quiet got the hang of it yet...

practice makes perfect, and even then, there is variance. But mono B should be one of if not your best matchup (granted its much harder now that they are prepared)

practice makes perfect, and even then, there is variance. But mono B should be one of if not your best matchup (granted its much harder now that they are prepared)

I appreciate the motivation man, I mean it. I'm way too rusty, so I really need to practice some more. Eventually I'll get back in shape. I'll also start recording my games, so I can watch it and see for myself, without the heat of the moment, what I'm doing wrong and what decisions I could've made that would change the course of battle. Well, at least that's how I learned in other games haha

For me personally, small aggro(red,white, black) are the best matchups but Mono Black is close too.

Games 2 and 3 can sometimes be rough if they get a hand with 2x Duress etc.

If you are struggling with the mono B matchup specifically, I suggest running two to three Assemble the Legion. Go with our old school build from around page 90 or so. Firedrinkers on the play and assemble made that our strongest hate build. Flames of the firebrand help as a replacement of searing blood too. When you get solid enough results start taking away the training wheels

I think Mono B/Bx too often rely on having 2-3 discard spells and keeping a garbage opener otherwise. Keep a decent 7 or 6 and play on, only if your deck shills you land after land after land at this point is the game unwinnable. If they have 3 discard spells what are their remaining 4 cards? They are hoping they come together before you do and I'm not 100% sure this favors them since this more or less allows you to play the turn three phoenix and start swinging. Never keep or ship back based on the possibility of discard I've played against B a lot and even game 2 and 3 they never manage to have an early discard (I've also played and never saw a chains, BL, or reprisal).

I'd suggest watching some of MDU's videos when he plays against B/Bx. Even if you don't play exactly like him I believe it helps seeing the decisions made based off board state and his hand. (I don't remember if Elricity has a B round or two
and can only think of the 1 video of Z's filmed from the black player's side off hand for others) You'll always have a hard time against 3 garies or 3 demons but these are not typical draws and not every game is winnable. Best of luck sir.

Greetings fellow red mages (:

Been following for awhile but here's my first post, I have a couple questions mainly is there a "good way" to deal with hexproof? Specifically g/w hexproof but to some extent naya as well. There's a lot of that locally and It's really frustrating but I think I just play that specific match up really poorly for some reason. Another question, what do you all think of "Act on Impulse"? Seems like maybe decent as a one or two of perhaps? I'm not sure if I just really want to like the card or if it's actually decent, I prefer being Izzet though so I'm questioning if maybe it's just a bais because it's as close to a red Divination as I could ever ask for.

Greetings fellow red mages (:

Been following for awhile but here's my first post, I have a couple questions mainly is there a "good way" to deal with hexproof? Specifically g/w hexproof but to some extent naya as well. There's a lot of that locally and It's really frustrating but I think I just play that specific match up really poorly for some reason. Another question, what do you all think of "Act on Impulse"? Seems like maybe decent as a one or two of perhaps? I'm not sure if I just really want to like the card or if it's actually decent, I prefer being Izzet though so I'm questioning if maybe it's just a bais because it's as close to a red Divination as I could ever ask for.

Ways I've beaten GW/Naya Hexproof:
1.
Eidolon of the Great Revel; a T2 Eidolon makes the matchup almost favored for us in my experience (although I could have just had really good experiences).
2. Wear//Tear + creatures; saving Wear//Tear for the only enchantment we can't really deal with (unflinching courage) and chump-blocking with YP tokens or walling our opponent with Reckoner also works. Banishing Light also works as enchantment removal, albeit after a swing.

I don't think Act of Impulse will ever see play in the burn deck, or any instant/sorcery that draws cards but doesn't do damage. It definitely is a red divination though, and I'm eager to play the card. I tried it out in UR storm a little, and the card might have legs.

[quote="BrainsickHater » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:15 pm"]

Ways I've beaten GW/Naya Hexproof:
1. Eidolon of the Great Revel; a T2 Eidolon makes the matchup almost favored for us in my experience (although I could have just had really good experiences).
2. Wear//Tear + creatures; saving Wear//Tear for the only enchantment we can't really deal with (unflinching courage) and chump-blocking with YP tokens or walling our opponent with Reckoner also works. Banishing Light also works as enchantment removal, albeit after a swing.

I don't think Act of Impulse will ever see play in the burn deck, or any instant/sorcery that draws cards but doesn't do damage. It definitely is a red divination though, and I'm eager to play the card. I tried it out in UR storm a little, and the card might have legs.[/quote:
2u80hwyf]



I play a list similar to the "Shouta" list, so no Eidolon. I guess I could try bringing in W // T, BL, and reckoner. Save them for gift of orzhova and unflinching, deal with everything else unless you have no other choice I guess? Yea I kind of thought Act on Impulse was a little out of place in burn, though I think it could be funny in a Possibility storm deck in standard just for the laughs.

Kaitscralt....well, you guys will figure out what sets his posts apart from all the others.

Only in the clan threads, if you read his post in the public sections they're actually very spot on and insightful (heck if you guys ever look up his username you'll notice he has a fantastic online check list of accomplishments (it wouldn't surprise me if its the best in this site)).

@dpaine88: I'm really curious about how your changing your deck moving forward (online we're kinda force into T//T too combat the control MUs like the mirror or UW) will you just metagame into the 7 3cc creature **** plan or keep your SB open?

Greetings fellow red mages (:

Been following for awhile but here's my first post, I have a couple questions mainly is there a "good way" to deal with hexproof? Specifically g/w hexproof but to some extent naya as well. There's a lot of that locally and It's really frustrating but I think I just play that specific match up really poorly for some reason. Another question, what do you all think of "Act on Impulse"? Seems like maybe decent as a one or two of perhaps? I'm not sure if I just really want to like the card or if it's actually decent, I prefer being Izzet though so I'm questioning if maybe it's just a bais because it's as close to a red Divination as I could ever ask for.

Speaking as a hexproof player for the last
two months, the card I hate seeing the most from burn decks is definitely Eidolon, especially if it's played turn two and I don't have my lifelink cards.

TBH it's still highly favorable for me, even if you have enchantment hate. I always keep two mana open for Rampagers and Boros/Selesnya Charm when things look fishy to attack into; however, I have seen other hexproof players who think they are invincible no matter what and lose to a better burn player with the right cards and playing smart. A sub-par player in my LGS has learned to copy my deck but puts out awful results because of that mentality.

I should also note that if you don't play a creature on turn two, whether it be Ash Zealot, Revel, or Young Jeezy, you won't be beating hexproof because I just beat you in the race.

Edit: Hexproof's worst enemies is an opponent with a big board presence and Celestial Flare. Burn won't be playing CF, but board presence can be done in burn.

Kaitscralt....well, you guys will figure out what sets his posts apart from all the others.

Only in the clan threads, if you read his post in the public sections they're actually very spot on and insightful (heck if you guys ever look up his username you'll notice he has a fantastic online check list of accomplishments (it wouldn't surprise me if its the best in this site)).

Nope, Madding's sarcasm and bluntness is not confined only to the Clan thread. He's had a few gems in this very thread.

But with that said, his Magic related posts are excellent.
He really does know what the hell he's talking about.

Ways I've beaten GW/Naya Hexproof:
1. Eidolon of the Great Revel; a T2 Eidolon makes the matchup almost favored for us in my experience (although I could have just had really good experiences).
2. Wear//Tear + creatures; saving Wear//Tear for the only enchantment we can't really deal with (unflinching courage) and chump-blocking with YP tokens or walling our opponent with Reckoner also works. Banishing Light also works as enchantment removal, albeit after a swing.

I don't think Act of Impulse will ever see play in the burn deck, or any instant/sorcery that draws cards but doesn't do damage.
It definitely is a red divination though, and I'm eager to play the card. I tried it out in UR storm a little, and the card might have legs.

I play a list similar to the "Shouta" list, so no Eidolon. I guess I could try bringing in W // T, BL, and reckoner. Save them for gift of orzhova and unflinching, deal with everything else unless you have no other choice I guess? Yea I kind of thought Act on Impulse was a little out of place in burn, though I think it could be funny in a Possibility storm deck in standard just for the laughs.

You bring in the flamespeakers, reckoners, things that target enchantments and you try and use your creatures plus boros charm to deal with their biggest beater and then you go into card advantage mode. It's still not good but like Buzzsaw said, you have to commit to the board to beat hexproof unless you get very, very lucky and they get very unlucky.

For me personally, small aggro(red,white, black) are the best matchups but Mono Black is close too.

Games 2 and 3 can sometimes be rough if they get a hand with 2x Duress etc.

As a red aggro player I always felt that the matchup is pretty close

then again I do run Eidolon and Reckoner main so that might make it a little trickier for the burn player

I think Mono B/Bx too often rely on having 2-3 discard spells and keeping a garbage opener otherwise. Keep a decent 7 or 6 and play on, only if your deck shills you land after land after land at this point is the game unwinnable. If they have 3 discard spells what are their remaining 4 cards? They are hoping they come together before you do and I'm not 100% sure this favors them since this more or less allows you to play the turn three phoenix and start swinging. Never keep or ship back based on the possibility of discard I've played against B a lot and even game 2 and 3 they never manage to have an early discard (I've also played and never saw a chains, BL, or reprisal).

I'd suggest watching some of MDU's videos when he plays against B/Bx. Even if you
don't play exactly like him I believe it helps seeing the decisions made based off board state and his hand. (I don't remember if Elricity has a B round or two and can only think of the 1 video of Z's filmed from the black player's side off hand for others) You'll always have a hard time against 3 garies or 3 demons but these are not typical draws and not every game is winnable. Best of luck sir.

I only have a couple with the Journey cards and it's definitely an old build with flames of the firebrand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF0bVh ... 0&index=13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-o_mH ... 0&index=18 I call myself an idiot a lot in this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdhO0H0 ... 0&index=20

Just accept that hexproof if almost unwinnable, and least popular.

Just accept that hexproof if almost unwinnable, and least popular.

I take it that your tournament you were prepping for against hexproof didn't go well?

It's on Sunday, but I am just giving up on preparing for hexproof. Trying to hedge for that match, makes my mono U matchup much worse (which I expect to be popular)

Flamespeaker. I know you all don't believe me that flamespeaker is good against mono blue but it's retardedly powerful against them. And creatures are decent against hexproof.

@Elricity - Have you tried Flamespeaker vs Black?

Just came back from the SCG. Think it had 50 players and I finished 12th. Got 3 packs, one had a mana confluence that I gave back to the guy I'd borrowed it from.

.....

Match 4 vs BW midrange. Game 1, he sees my hand of 2 YP plus burn. Not realizing it until later, he uses a devour flesh when I have a token out so I assume his removal is crap and play my 2nd YP into his bile blight with no way to counter it. I get him to 3 through a gary and blood baron and my 3 skullcracks but couldn't topdeck any burn spell I needed to get a CP back to finish. SB: -4 shock, boros charm, 3 helix, +2 Chandra, 3 Flamespeaker, 2 banish, 1 mortar, 1 reprisal, 1 w/t, 1 keen.

Game 2. I'm again skullcracking through his whips while drawing cards with a flamespeaker (which
surprised him). On my last turn, with lethal to swing on board, I topdeck a skullcrack and foolishly windmill slam it. He devour fleshes a demon in response and I can't get the game back as he downfalls flamespeaker next turn so I can't hit any of my exile or enchantment removal to deal with the whip. Embarrassing.

Cards drawn with flamespeaker: 4.

It would have won me the game if I didn't tard out at the end. This is my general experience with the card vs black. I could see this sideboard being wrong because I'm boarding out a lot of spells for YP but helix is slooow.

But you lost in that example... I'm saying overall, you would of had to been removing more burn for him, is it worth it vs black?

edit: like you took out 3 WLH for him

But you lost in that example... I'm saying overall, you would of had to been removing more burn for him, is it worth it vs black?

edit: like you took out 3 WLH for him

Doing 4 damage and drawing four cards was much better than doing 4 damage and gaining four life in that game.

Flamespeaker was what would have let me win a game I shouldn't have if I hadn't misplayed skullcrack.

I'm open for argument on whether boarding out helix vs something else was the wrong call but the Flamespeaker was solid.

Yeah I get that there is a stipulation attached to it. But what I want to know is how has it been vs mono black or is the one game vs BW your only experience with it?

You also boarded in W///T and Keening, did you know he had a whip?

Yes, I've played it several times on Cockatrice and my experience is the same as at the SCG event. Trying to grind more DEs both so I have some tickets for rotation and have some videos to show how I use the 3cc creatures in my strategy. Unfortunately, I didn't draw it today although it would have been welcome game 2 when the board state emptied.

At the SCG event, he did show whip game one which is why I boarded the enchant hate since I'm used to them also having banishing light game 2. He did hit an early whip game 2 but I never saw any of chain/banish/disenchant. It was quite annoying. All helix could have killed was Gary which he would have just whipped back in. It was a pretty unfavorable match but I'm confidant that was the right sideboard plan, particularly on the play where I needed to be super aggressive. As it was, I would have won the game with his side being an 8/8 demon, gary, and pack rat plan in full force.


Against mono black, you get to use both since don't need the mortar/disenchant so it's -4 shock/charm for 3 PFS, 2 CPM, 1 reprisal, 2 banish. Plus or minus a mortar if they're on the specter plan. I still find helix is the weaker of the cards but you can afford to go longer where the lifegain is relevant because mono black doesn't have the potential of gaining a million life. Flamespeaker meshes very well with the grind them out plan now that Assemble is less meta reliable and also dodges duress along with having a lower curve.

I should stop edit spamming.

About the die to removal concern, which I believe is what you're getting at, it has the same threat value as YP or Chandra who, let's be honest, are of marginal power if they die immediately to removal as well. What it shares with all of them is that if your opponent can't answer it immediately, their chances of winning the game slip away very, very fast. We all know what the average damage per card in the deck does. Even hitting two lands with flamespeaker is very, very powerful as it ups your threat density from future draws both because you're hitting gas faster and able to spend it quicker.

A flamespeaker connect is worth at least 6 damage. That value only starts going up once you have more lands to reliably fire off 3 spells and be able to afford using mutavault into removal, particularly if you have a YP in play.

Well it kinda sucks that Hexproof won the most recent SCG Open just as it is coming to my hometown(Worcester MA).

Last Open I ran into 2 Hexproof in the first 4 rounds.

Really praying the hivemind doesn't pick up Hexproof.

For me personally, small aggro(red,white, black) are the best matchups but Mono Black is close too.

Games 2 and 3 can sometimes be rough if they get a hand with 2x Duress etc.

As a red aggro player I always felt that the matchup is pretty close

then again I do run Eidolon and Reckoner main so that might make it a little trickier for the burn player

That would make it harder but for many of us on here - Red Devo and Hyper Aggro are very good matchups.

Also, if they are not running young Pyro it will be a lot better for your side.

And lastly, the concern about it exiling removal when they have nothing in play.

If their board is clear and they can't interact with mine, I want to scry away every control card I see at that point anyway. And if I reveal two decent cards and don't have enough mana to use them, then it means I need to be digging to lands anyway. I don't recall a time I regret Flamespeaker exiling cards instead of letting me keep them in my hand and that counts one game where I think I had to exile 6 spells with it. I really, really needed a 4th land that game, which I eventually got to win.

Short answer: I've been playing with the card for weeks and I never regret seeing it if I have the mana to cast it. Except against Sylvan Carytid. Fuck that card.

Kaitscralt....well, you guys will figure out what sets his posts apart from all the others.

@dpaine88: I'm really curious about how your changing your deck moving forward (online we're kinda force into T//T too combat the control MUs like the mirror or UW) will you just metagame into the 7 3cc creature **** plan or keep your SB open?

I think 7 creatures is overkill. Control can be tough for me so I do like to keep in the T/T but if we cut it- we still have 1 Mutavault,1 Keening, 2 Chandra, 2 Banishing Light to sideboard which is 6 cards right there. T/T
would make it 10 cards? Do we need that if people are shifting away from D-sphere?

I was testing the 7 creatures for a few weeks at FNM's but sadly I never truely got to play Flamespeaker so I didn't feel comfortable bringing it to the 5k so I went with nearly the same sideboard that your list has which I have been using online. I just like Keening App since I am running Mana Conf over your Temple of Malice in paper(might buy it online now that I got cash).

Flamespeaker is a REALLY cool card and I traded for like 10 of them so I just want to play it really bad.
Reckoner is probably the correct choice and I want to win so I will probably just play him.


[deck]Sideboard[/deck]

I think for a 4th Reckoner I'd cut Mutavault or Keening Apparition.


I threw a lot of things out there but its harder than I thought to play both online and paper.

I'm not sure your curve is high enough in your 75 to justify the 4th mutavault.

I'm not sure your curve is high enough in your 75 to justify the 4th mutavault.

Can you elaborate as to which cards would make the curve high enough to justify it??

for me it has been nice against aggro decks where you need to hit your land drops and also against control.

Ugh Naya Hexproof in first round of 8-man =(

Man this matchup sucks..... Gladecover into Unflinching = GG

Wow...Fiendslayer into Madcap into GCR+Boros Charm..... wow...

Almost beat that too.... went to -1 life with win on untap =(

Yeah I get that there is a stipulation attached to it. But what I want to know is how has it been vs mono black or is the one game vs BW your only experience with it?

You also boarded in W///T and Keening, did you know he had a whip?

In my experiences with it, he's usually well worth it game 2, as removal almost always is coming out for hand disruption. He may still die, but the vast majority of time if you can run a pheonix or a YP$ out beforehand, he'll stick or, if he knows you have it in hand, leave the former unchecked until he can find more removal. Along that line, it's fun to read your opponents face when he sees it with a quick duress. Past that, his use gets murkier if you go to game 3. I'm usually 50/50 for siding him back out, and
a lot of it comes down to your read on the opponent. He definitely sees a lot more removal for the third game, but if they're siding removal back in, it feels like you're already ahead (and that it's a misplay on their part.) Additionally, I feel like Warleader's is usually the right choice to take out, but occasionally i'll drop a magma jet/lightning bolt to keep a pair in the main.

As for hexproof... yep. Keening apparition is IMO the best card you can side in for the match up, as it leads to them playing around the enchantment removal giving you more time to find answers and doming them in the process. Him, YP$ and Boros Charms are pretty much the only way I've beaten that deck (and it's like a 10-15% win rate at that ) I might look into Celestial Flare after the pain lands come out, but the double white seems too prohibitive atm.

Also, HI! Figure I've lurked long enough.