[Primer] Boros Burn

[BrainsickHater]

Not sure how Harness is good.

I don't get why you think the monsters match up is a "race". That matchup is incredibly easy with the YP$ version, G1 is almost un-loseable (made up this word).

I think the matchup is a race because the matchup is a race. If you have ever seen a game between a burn deck and a monsters deck the match is 100% about dropping the monsters player to zero before they flood the board with so much power you don't stand a chance. G1 is not even close to un-loseable with YP as monsters runs a great many cards that cause the burn deck problems. Courser is a wall that gains life. Polukranos is a fatty that eats your blockers. Stormbreath Dragon is a fast clock we can't chain. Xenagos is a clock that grows at an
alarming rate that can also crap out fatties. Even caryatid is a bitch. Last time I checked YP doesn't magically beat all these cards, and it will still die to removal in many games.

Harness is a card that has been excellent for me, and I've explained why, so if you still don't understand I suggest you run the card.

[Purp]

I'd disagree the matchup is about racing life totals. Maybe that's the reason I haven't lost to monsters in months. It's much like the Mono U matchup. You need to be able to properly analyze the board state every turn in order to determine your active role in the matchup (ie: burning them out, saving shock/searing blood for an inevitable dragon, baiting blocks with tokens etc.)

[BrainsickHater]

The MU matchup is still a race. Yes you assess the board every turn to determine whether or not you should be burning them out, but your assessment is to determine whether or not you can burn them to death before they kill you. Your active role changes depending on whether or not you are ahead in the race or you need to play around something in order to maintain the lead in the race.

[Purp]

I think we have different definitions of the word race.

[BrainsickHater]

Seems likely.

[Elricity]

If you have to constantly evaluate the board state in a match to see whether they can kill you first, you're not racing. That's the control role.

[BrainsickHater]

I disagree. When I'm racing I'm looking to end the game quickly, when I'm playing control I'm trying to drag out the game.

When you're playing against monsters or MU you try and end the game quickly because the power level of their cards will overtake you in the long game. Just because I'm assessing the board that doesn't mean I'm playing control; you assess the board in pretty much every game you play.

[Elricity]

Just because I'm assessing the board that doesn't mean I'm playing control

This is not what I said. If you have to keep an eye on the board state because it might kill you first, you are control. On curve, monsters puts out more damage than burn because its sources of damage are repeatable.

Aggression only cares about the board state only if it's preventing them from killing their opponent. This is where a card like Harness is powerful because it removes blockers and converts to damage. For a card like Harness to be powerful in control, it has remove the creatures and not die until it can hit a game winning strive. That's incredibly difficult to do which is why the card is questionable in burn.

Racing only
occurs when either a) the opponent in the control role has no way to actually control and has to hope on a weak aggression hand or b) neither opponent is certain what their role is.

I don't agree on your definition of control isn't exactly about dragging out the game. It's about surviving until you can resolve a win condition and then protecting it until your opponent dies. It's irrelevant that burn's win condition vs monsters can come down on turn 2 or 3 because it can't kill them before their turn 3-4 play can. And that's all that matters.

I understand your belief that we can't let the game go long because If monsters resolves a threat we can't kill, then we lose. However, that is exactly the role control always is in. If they have disproprortionatly more questions than you have answers, it's an auto lose. So my belief, and I believe Purp's, is that you have to not let that happen. Thems the ropes.

[Purp]

Interesting Japanese God of Standard list (2nd Place)

[deck]4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
Creatures [8]
4 Boros Charm
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
Spells [29]
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Mana Confluence
8 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
Lands [23]

SIDEBOARD
2 Banishing Light
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Reprisal
2 Wear // Tear
Sideboard [15]
Deck Total [60]
[/deck]

mmmmk enough discussion of race/control definitions, to each their own. Thoughts on this list above people?

[zemanjaski]

Shota Yasooka made it.

Of course I love it even if I don't understand it.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I get most of it, but there are some oddball choices.

[Kaitscralt]

play magic with me you hack fraud

[Elricity]

He's apparently not worried about facing control?

[Elricity]

play magic with me you hack fraud

ESO said what? =p

[LP, of the Fires]

Where'd you get the decklist from?

[Kaitscralt]

play magic with me you hack fraud

ESO said what? =p

you stay out of this!

[magicdownunder]

Last Time Including Tuesday games

---

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Exile 03
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burn 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood

Sideboard 15
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Toil // Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Fated Conflagration
1 Reprisal[/deck]
Link to Basic SB plan

SE Report 7151672
G1 R1 Mirror SE 7151672
[url=https:/
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q3yNZDXVfo]G1 R2 Mirror SE 7151672[/url]

G2 R1 Bw Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7151672
G2 R2 Bw Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7151672

G3 R1 AiR vs Rw Burn SE 7151672
G3 R2 AiR vs Rw Burn SE 7151672

SE Report 7152565
G1 R1 UW Control vs Rw Burn SE 7152565
G1 R2 UW Control vs Rw Burn SE 7152565
G1 R3 UW Control vs Rw Burn SE 7152565

[
url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY8cUgX2o3M]G1 R1 Uw Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7152565[/url]
G1 R2 Uw Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7152565
G1 R3 Uw Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7152565

G3 R1 U Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7152565
G3 R2 U Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7152565

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn for MODOs Monster and Junk Land]Lands 23
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
3 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Exile 03
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burn 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood

nSideboard 15
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Toil // Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Fated Conflagration[/deck]

SE Report 7156299
G1 R1 Jund Monster vs Rw Burn SE 7156299
G1 R2 Jund Monster vs Rw Burn SE 7156299
G1 R3 Jund Monster vs Rw Burn SE 7156299

G1 R1 Naya Monster vs Rw Burn SE 7156299
[url=https://www.youtube&#
46;com/watch?v=LfRC_S_X1tg&list=PLBO2Co_8Gb6zIxGs3g-nnYDy6m7Azu4Ma&index=6]G1 R2 Naya Monster vs Rw Burn SE 7156299[/url]
G1 R3 Naya Monster vs Rw Burn SE 7156299

G3 R1 Mirror HK1997 vs MDU SE 7156299
G3 R2 Mirror HK1997 vs MDU SE 7156299
G3 R3 Mirror HK1997 vs MDU SE 7156299

@HK1997: When you get the chance can you review G3 R2 (from the 5 minute mark mainly)? I feel that I should have lost that game.

[Elricity]

play magic with me you hack fraud

ESO said what? =p

you stay out of this!

[Purp]

Shota Yasooka made it.

Of course I love it even if I don't understand it.

I really like not including searing blood, its frequently my most SBed out card.

I am really curious about the Flamespeaker. Seems ok vs Bx devotion, not sure about UWx control though. I wonder how it is in comparison to phoenix in the mirror. Reckoner could also come in the mirror?

Also, with only 12 mountains, has anyone ever had issues being able to find a mountain to attach Chained to?

I imagine his Monsters SB is -4 Skullcrack -4 Boros Charm +4 Reckoner +2 Reprisal +2 BL.

I love that it ran 4 mutavaults. His G1 Control matchup seems a bit bad, maybe those help it enough. Just pray not to draw into Chained/Mortars.

[zemanjaski]

12 mountains only has been discussed a few times; yes it will come up now and then but it's worth been that greedy.

VS. Control he has 5 bad md cards whereas we have had six in the past (3 chains, 3 blood). I'd switch 1 chained for 1 banishing light to further reduce this number if you're in a control heavy meta.

[Elricity]

When I was testing flamespeaker, it was weak to UW control because of Jace.

[Purp]

The 1 BL for 1 chain was already my first inclination. When I run through SBing with his list... I don;t event think he would be bringing in flamespeakers. Unless he is removing shock.

-4 Chain -1 Mortars +2 Chandra +2 wear +1 BL?

We will never know! I think at this point though its safe to keep in at least 1 chain.

According to Adam, he was brining in Flamespeaker vs Mono U as well

[magicdownunder]

What is Prophetic Flamespeaker used for anyways? Boros Reckoner just seems better vs Aggro, Burn and Midrange.

EDIT: Ahhh, cheers purp its for Ux Devotion.
EDIT2: He already has 2x BL isn't speaker a bit much? I think running T//T or something to hate on Control would be better.

[Purp]

An argument was made that Flamespeaker could replacing pheonix in the aggro matchup as well.

[LP, of the Fires]

Flamespeaker is very good against agro and can be good against control decks.

The idea is that since your burn, people board out removal vs. you since it's generally terrible letting you next level them with the creature plan.

Semi-transformational sideboards, yay!!!!

[zemanjaski]

There's some small amount of wiggle room.

3 Chained plus 2 Mortars main perhaps? You can probably mess around with a few slots in the SB too.

[NotARobot]

I like that list, but it looks weak to bw midrange to me. What do you guys think?

[Purp]

I like that list, but it looks weak to bw midrange to me. What do you guys think?

How so?

Reprisal kills DD and Obzedat, and it has Chandra.

[Purp]

[deck]4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

2 Boros Guildgate
1 Mana Confluence
8 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph


SIDEBOARD
1 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
1 Reprisal
2 Keening Apparition
2 Wear // Tear[/deck]

I wonder how good Flamespeaker is in the Hexproof matchup.

[BrainsickHater]

I think Flamespeaker plays the role that Brimaz would in the SB. It's a creature that comes down and ends the game.

You wouldn't play it against MB or Monsters because it matches up poorly against a lot of their cards, but you would against aggro because they'll probably never remove it, it's a solid blocker, and in the lategame you just clear blockers and punch through with it to close out the game.

I kind of like Boros Reckoner as an aggro-hate card because it's also good against Monsters and the Mirror. However, I think I might want Mortars more just because this list seems soft to Stormbreath Dragon otherwise.

[zemanjaski]

Reckoner is much worse against monsters than you think. Early in we tested it and it's so bad against at their threats. I guess with Reorisal though you're much better positioned against Gor Clan Rampager.

[zemanjaski]

Flamespeaker probably is just a more castable Brimaz I guess.

[Kaitscralt]

Flamespeaker sucks until rotation and possibly after rotation

[BrainsickHater]

Man, I would kill for a tournament report by Yasooka right now. Need info on all these spicy cards!

Also, I think his list might be a reaction to the surge of midrange creature decks we've seen of late. Idk if things are going the same in Japan as they are over here, but his SB cards seem really good against Naya Midrange for instance.
Boros Reckoner I think would match up well as such lists don't always run Ghor-Clan, Reprisal speaks for itself, and Banishing Light handles the abundance of walkers. Not to mention all the maindeck creature hate.

I'm also really liking Reprisal as a monsters card, as it matches up perfectly against Ghor-Clan and has applications against Mono-Black.

[BrainsickHater]

I think I'm liking the idea of 4 chained 2 searing blood in the maindeck. The matchups you want them in are very similar, except right now there are probably more matchups where you want chained. Not to mention YP$ favors the long game so the 3 damage from Searing Blood isn't as necessary.

[Purp]

Reckoner is much worse against monsters than you think. Early in we tested it and it's so bad against at their threats. I guess with Reorisal though you're much better positioned against Gor Clan Rampager.

You make a good point here. We didn't like Reckoner early on because of Rampager. In theory you wouldn't have to block with a t3 reckoner until t5. Blocking with reckoner basically forces a ghorclan which can then be met with a reprisal. I don't think reckoner is good vs monster (especially jund) because now they have abrupt decay, putrefy, doom blade.

So now begs the question, whats better against aggro. Reckoners, or more mortars? With a lot of the more "aggressive decks" (excluding mono U, mortars is strictly better here)
having a white base, a turn 3 reckoner could easily walk into a banishing light.

However something I want to consider. Is Reckoner strictly better in the mirror than Phoenix is (or even flamespeaker)? The triple red could be a restriction as you basically want to play this on turn 3. They both would require either lightning strike/wlh to kill it, or double up burn spells.

I wonder if his Bx devo is: -1 MM -4 Shock -4 Boros Charm +2 Chandra +2 Reprial +2 BL +3 Flamspeaker

Chandra and Flamespeaker do have some nice synergy.

[NotARobot]

I like that list, but it looks weak to bw midrange to me. What do you guys think?

How so?

Reprisal kills DD and Obzedat, and it has Chandra.

I was thinking of bbov, the bane of my existence

[BrainsickHater]

I think Reckoner is probably better than Phoenix. Phoenix is nice because your opponent will pretty much ignore it unless they have Chained or Searing Blood. Reckoner will probably get the same treatment except he doesn't get hit by Searing Blood as easily. The flipside to that is Lightning Strike is a lot better against Reckoner. However, I think that if my opponent Lightning Strikes my Reckoner, I'm fine with that. They spent a card on my Reckoner which I threw right back at their face (which is probably worth a card in the mirror) and they also lost tempo.

Flamespeaker might be better, but it could be that he just eats a Lightning Strike, and his ability may cause you to tap out on your turn which feels greedy/unsafe.

[BrainsickHater]

Also, my thinking on Yasooka's MB was -1 MM, -4 Shock, -1 Boros Charm // +2 Chandra, +2 Reprisal, +2 BL

I don't think I would run Flamespeaker because they'll still have some amount of removal in their deck and it gets walled by Specter, Merchant, and Demon. I think if you brought in Flamespeaker you might keep the mortars in just to clear out blockers.

[BrainsickHater]

Considering this deck for this weekend now because Yasooka's list makes me giggle like a schoolgirl

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock

Lands
1 Temple of Silence
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mutavault
8 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence

Sideboard
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Keening Apparition
1 Wear // Tear
1 Mutavault
2 Reprisal
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
1 Banishing LIght
[/deck]

EDIT: After much internal grappling, I have admitted to myself that BL is a good card and it fits well into this deck.