[Primer] Boros Burn

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Postby magicdownunder » Thu May 22, 2014 9:19 am

@Z: Sydney Masters Classic 5K Standard 25 May 2014 <--- more info please (I'll prefer a link if possible), I'll see if I can somehow scrape up a deck-list.

I also highly recommend Eidolon of the Great Revel over Firedrinker Satyr from the SB since he doesn't suffer that "if I don't see him by T3 he is a dead card syndrome".
Really? Firedrinker Satyr is never a dead card against decks like U/w (which is when he's brought in). Dat pump ability.....

edit: if the post sounds
sarcastic, it's not meant to be.
Unless you drop him early he has to contend with Jace, Vaults, Elsepth Token, FSP, Sheep, Angels, wasted turn, UW Charm, I feel like typing more, and stuff.

While Eidolon of the Great Revel gives zero **** about those cards.

EDIT: I didn't take it sarcastically and I'm glad you asked :smileup:
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Thu May 22, 2014 10:04 am

I agree with MDU. FDS is pretty mediocre past turn 3, while Eidolon is still gonna deal some garuanteed damage.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Khaospawn » Thu May 22, 2014 11:04 am

With the exception of Elspeth tokens, the rest really aren't that scary. With pumps, you can ignore Jace's +1 at least. Or maybe kill a sheep. Killing a Mutavault is never a bad thing.

But I digress. He is better earlier.
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Postby NotARobot » Thu May 22, 2014 3:32 pm

Interesting list z... I don't think I could run it though. Cutting yp all together for t//t in the main just seems wrong... we've been debating how yp is never a bad or dead card in this shell, but then you cut him for something that is absolutely a dead card in a number of matchups? Just seems odd. Can't wait to see your results though, bet you'll kill it anyways.

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Postby Purp » Thu May 22, 2014 3:42 pm

Interesting list z... I don't think I could run it though. Cutting yp all together for t//t in the main just seems wrong... we've been debating how yp is never a bad or dead card in this shell, but then you cut him for something that is absolutely a dead card in a number of matchups? Just seems odd. Can't wait to see your results though, bet you'll kill it anyways.
We've tested a no 2 drop version a lot last season. It is still a very good option. The version Z posted is very META call. He is expecting a lot of BG and UWx, which this list prey upon. It should still be favored g1 against aggro decks (dependent on draws). If he doesn't expect a lot of mono u, his list is great (SFD is very strong vs them post board, they bring in counters and
you put in a creature.)

I like Chandra, over Erebos. I still see lifebanes being kept in, and it's another hedge vs weenie decks(also a card for the mirror, I think Erebos would be too slow here). You havn't been testing much standard Z, you are going to be amazed at how many matches Wear//Tear gets brought in (which I am sure you know).
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Postby HK1997 » Thu May 22, 2014 5:20 pm

Closed out 2 SE's and a Daily with this Deck:

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn - Modified]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Exile 03
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burn 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Searing Blood

Sideboard 15
3 Toil // Trouble
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Fated Conflagration
1 Reprisal[/deck]

The Daily Event matchups were the following

Round 1 vs. Mono B devotion 2-0
OUT: 3 SB, 3 Shock
IN: 4 Eidolon, 1 CttR, 1 Reprisal
Didnt see any NVS, so no reason for mortars

Round 2 vs. WW 2-1
OUT: 4 Boros Charm, 4 Skullcrack
IN: 4 Eidolon, 1 CttR, 2 Anger, 1 Mortar

[b:
23vnib4n]Round 3 vs Bg devotion 2-1[/b]
OUT: 3 SB, 3 Shock
IN: 4 Eidolon, 1 CttR, 1 Reprisal
Didnt see any NVS, so no reason for mortars; bringin in Eidolon in addition to YPs gives him more targets to blast his green removal on, making your chains stick with a higher chance

Round 4 vs Uw Devotion 2-0
OUT: 4 Skullcrack, 4 Boros Charm, 2 shock
IN: 2 Anger, 3 Mizzium, 1 CttR, 4 Eidolon

Anger was very nice here. In game two I kept a hand with anger and no exiles. He proceeded to setup his board with 1/1's and NVS for Master and his artifact, untap - hello 3/2 Master of waves vs. 2 Mutavaults. Drawing a mizzium mortars with overload mana to clear the board yet again ensured I could grind my way to the finish. Taking out the 2 Shock for Anger works well since if you pull an anger instead of a shock, you dont need to shock the first three turns anyways.

I've only made slight changes to MDU's last deck, which has been running very well for me.

With the increase
in aggro I felt that going 3 - 3 on shock and SB was an ok adjustment

Dropping one T/T and the banishing light for 2x Anger was a call for the same reason, including the MonoU matchup. Anger went very well against MonoU and WW, getting 3 for 1 in both Matchups, despite both having artifacts, that give +1/+1, on board. Sure, I had to follow up on a NVS with a SB, but waiting to 5 Mana was well worth it. Having it in hand, let's you play a whole lot more reckless. I didnt get to play it against Green to sweep off some mana wheenies and clear the ground for tokens, but I would have liked to.
Also, I have tested banishing light extensively now and 80% of the time, that I draw it, I'm unhappy because of it's clunkyness.
Last edited by HK1997 on Thu May 22, 2014 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Pedros » Thu May 22, 2014 5:28 pm

I dont know about states but I un-officially won 80 people iq with junk pile last holidays when I visited sister. Sold all valuable cards from reanimator, so had to run junk tokens with scion of vitu ghazi etc. Took whole cash, gave ticket to my opp. Didnt loose a singlke game.

YP is more universal cards, usable in every matchup, while firedancer and eidolon have their own matchups to shine.. to an unsolved meta I would take Yp, to an solved one I understand @Z point about not bringing any other creature. Most times eidolon will do 2 dmg, and any burn spell would do 2 or even more. I however like mdus point of him vs contol.
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Postby NotARobot » Thu May 22, 2014 5:34 pm

So what matchups are you bringing in eidolon for? I know it wrecks control, but I've seen some back and forth for using it in other matchups.

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Postby Pedros » Thu May 22, 2014 5:41 pm

The same Firedrinker would be brought. Control only probably. Question is who does more damage there: Eidolon or Satyr.
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Postby Purp » Thu May 22, 2014 5:57 pm

So what matchups are you bringing in eidolon for? I know it wrecks control, but I've seen some back and forth for using it in other matchups.
If you're "bringing it in", what are you playing in your MD? YP$ or T//T? This matter.
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Postby NotARobot » Thu May 22, 2014 6:04 pm

Oh I was thinking of the list HK just posted, so yps.

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Postby HK1997 » Thu May 22, 2014 6:26 pm

I'll edit in the sideboarding when I get home, but Eidolon I bring in in all aggro except midrange, the mirror, Bx, Ux devotion, and G devotion if they run the list without caryatids.

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Postby HK1997 » Thu May 22, 2014 8:24 pm

Mj is a lot of things, but he's also an excellent magic player. Lots of players, pro or otherwise, will look terrible when they play a deck for the first time. Did you see Sam Black trying to play burn? It was...aweful.

MJ also has the personality of a wet napkin, but that's what makes him enjoyable to watch imo.
He's currently streaming a daily with Red Devotion. Would love to read what you have to type about his play, since you are one of the Red devotion experts. :apirate:

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Postby magicdownunder » Thu May 22, 2014 11:00 pm

REALLY GOOD RESULTS HK1997 :smileup:

I can understand the Anger from the sideboard because Wx and Bx seems (based on goldfish data) to be getting out-of-control, its a real shame I couldn't play in this period because boosters are going for so much right now :tears:
Last Time
Here is the current list I'm running:

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Exile 03
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Burn 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood

nSideboard 15
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Fated Conflagration
1 Reprisal[/deck]

I've taken three SE events with it so far, so I'm liking it.

SE Report 7098044
G1 R1 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044
G1 R2 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044
G1 R3 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044

G2 R1 Naya Hexproof vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044
G2 R2 Naya Hexproof vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044
G2 R3 Naya Hexproof vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044

G3 Split

SE Report 7098125
G1 R1 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125
G1 R2 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125

G2 R1 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125
G2 R2 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125

G3 Split
[deck=MDU's Rw Burn]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

nCreatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Exile 03
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Burn 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood

Sideboard 15
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Fated Conflagration
1 Reprisal[/deck]

SE Report 7101801
G1 R1 Esper Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G1 R2 Esper Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G1 R3 Esper Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801 <-- Revel was good here

G2 R1 UW Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
[
url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=611fsk28mPk]G2 R2 UW Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801[/url]
G2 R3 UW Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801

G3 R1 Dredge vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G3 R2 Dredge vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G3 R3 Dredge vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801

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Postby Rjayz » Thu May 22, 2014 11:06 pm

Has Harness By Force just completely fallen out of favour? I haven't been able to perform much testing as of late due to exams but in my local meta the decks are quite varied. Are Monsters decks not a threat anymore, do we have better cards to face their threats or are you guys hedging to beat Bx Devotion and UWx Control decks more since I guess the online meta is different?

The main reason I thought I'd ask is Zemanjaski proposed it in his initial draft of the list and I keep seeing it in sideboards as a 2-of on sites like MtgTop8 although it's not being mentioned here.

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Postby Aodh » Thu May 22, 2014 11:38 pm

Threatens are always good against midrange decks, but with monsters being such a small portion of the meta, it's pretty narrow. If you also plan on being frisky and catching a DD alone, it could be okay. The reason it's not AMAZING in burn is that their big dumb creatures aren't really blocking ours. In a traditional RDW kind of deck, it removed a/the blocking threat, allowing us to attack with our 3-4 dwarved creatures alongside their fatty.

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Postby zenbitz » Fri May 23, 2014 12:57 am

Re: Zems list's
drawing the second toil/trouble seems sketchy except vs. rev. So running 4 always gives me lemon face. Man, but it's awesome on T3, so maybe we just have to maximize it.
Am I silly for wanting to run 1x YP or EGR and 3x T/T?

We need ca. 8 black sources to run Erebos right? That would make Toil more useful too.

2 mana confluence
1 temple of silence
2 Temple of Malice
2 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 mutavault
5 mountain

???

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Postby BlakLanner » Fri May 23, 2014 1:06 am

The more I am testing and getting taken out by aggro decks, the more turned off I am getting towards Eidolon. I seem to be getting trapped under my own effect that I am giving away games that I would otherwise win. I think I will be going back to Pyromancer.
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Postby Aodh » Fri May 23, 2014 1:46 am

A singleton Erebos is fine on 8 sources, yeah.

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Postby dpaine88 » Fri May 23, 2014 2:36 pm

So next up on SCG's "4 rounds with R/W Burn" is Ari Lax apparently.

He played 2 mirrors and something stuck out to me.

He was very aggresive with mutavault, offering the trade for one his burn spells frequently.

I do not have much exp with the deck but I have not seen this play very much in people's videos or you guys talking about it.

It seems good to get to 6 mana to skullcrack/helix and this counters that obviously- seems really risky to Searing Blood too...
Burn baby burn!

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri May 23, 2014 3:55 pm

Suprising how aggressive he was with the mutavaults and how often he'd side out lands, keep a one lander, get bit, then blame variance.

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Postby dpaine88 » Fri May 23, 2014 4:05 pm

Yeah...siding out lands seemed really dumb.
Burn baby burn!

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Postby dauntless268 » Fri May 23, 2014 6:04 pm

The more I am testing and getting taken out by aggro decks, the more turned off I am getting towards Eidolon. I seem to be getting trapped under my own effect that I am giving away games that I would otherwise win. I think I will be going back to Pyromancer.
Eidolon is really challenging to play well vs. Aggro - and it demands concessions in terms of both deckbuilding and playing IMO.

In terms of deckbuilding, because you have to load up on either Shocks (kill a dude before you play Eidolon), Searing Blood (2 for you, 3 for them), or you're an adventurous guy like me and go crazy on Spark Trooper... ;-)

In terms of playing, because you have to know whether
to block with Eidolon and whether or not to play your spells. There is sometimes a moment when it's better to chump block with Eidolon than to keep it alive. I had one game lately where it took me 3 turns to figure out that all I had to do to win the match was to get my double Eidolons killed - as it allowed me to fire off the array of Boros Charms I had accumulated in my hand :)

Mind you however that playing with burn vs. Aggro is never easy. Depending on how many non-interactive Burnspells you draw and how fast they are, you can find yourself very quickly on the losing end of a Skullcrack and a Boros Charm vs. 2 Creatures plus a safe life total. I like Eidolon in that gives us a fair chance to race aggro with good play - unlike some others here I consider Eidolon a pretty skill intensive card.
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Postby Valdarith » Fri May 23, 2014 6:59 pm

My experience playing against Eidolon burn decks with my some of my aggro decks tells me the card is fine if you're on the play but terrible on the draw as expected. Just bear this in mind when playing against aggro. You want to side them out if on the draw and just play the value game against them.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri May 23, 2014 8:06 pm

Getting really fucking sick of UW. I was just elixir'd 5 times in three games. Also just lost to FSP. Guy didn't get the memo to run rams... tilting.... poor dragon got countered... guy just refused to tap out...

Any concrete advice on this matchup?

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Postby zenbitz » Fri May 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Not to get all schadenfrued-y on you but I am glad I am not the only one who finds this MU a tad challenging. I mean, when you have a fast hand with lots of pressure and they get down to about 6 life and you have a skullcrack then you are going to win. But if they can keep the board clear and hold up countermagic ... what can you do? My easiest games either involved a T1 FDS or T3 Trouble (on the play when they play a T2 temple) for 7.

Maybe the answer is to mulligan more aggressively?

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Postby Khaospawn » Fri May 23, 2014 8:53 pm

From some of the comments I've read by Purp, Dauntless, and Val, my assumptions on Eidolon are seemingly justified, though I haven't really voiced much of them. I've only played 9 matches with Eidolon (hey, don't judge me! I'm coming back from a 6 week hiatus and I've been dealing with some life problems such as dead vehicle, pulled teeth, and the joys [and pitfalls] of prescription painkillers :homer:), but those games and the major theory crafting/debating/gollum-ing I'v done with myself has made me realize a few things about our favorite little bear.

Eidolon of the Great Revel is actually a skill intensive card to play with. I say this because it's quite easy to dig a hole that you can't climb out of with this guy. I did it in my very first match with him, and so did Purp (if anyone bothered to read his States report).
The skill lies in knowing when to ride his ability to a win and when to 'throw him away.' He's an aggressive creature through and through. The opponents know this, and that's why they can make some crazy mistakes, such as throwing mutavaults away to chump him. He changes the entire sequencing of your spells - do you run the bear out and take 2 damage to Searing Blood a creature next turn, thereby putting you 'ahead' in life totals and clearing room for an attack? Or do you burn first and ride the Eidolon out for some potentially additional damage either by attacking or baiting a removal spell that shocks the opponent? Do you try to run 2 out and build your hand up with more burn so you can suicide attack/block and then unload on your opponent?

Position is very important with Pillar Bear. We can't help our position in Game 1 - we either win the dice roll or not. But the fact remains that maindecking him gives us an edge Game 1 against Control, and when we're in a bad matchup with him Game 1 versus,
say, Monsters we are fully prepared with a sideboard to turn that around. I played some games against Mono Black and B/g and I enjoyed the Eidolon while on the play, but I boarded him out while on the draw. My position in each game determined when he'll be at his best. Realizing that lets you use him more effectively.

I know it was mentioned before that YP$ is better in an unknown meta, while Eidolon is better in a known meta. But at the end of the day, choosing to go with the Eidolon maindecked will test your skill of metagaming too. That's big. Looking back on the last two little tournaments I played in (FNM and MNM), I'd say I was correct in playing Pillar Bear at my usual stomping grounds on Friday, but I was an idiot for maindecking him going to a store on Monday that I play at once every 3 or 4 months. Now, will I play the Eidolon tonight? Most likely, since I do predict that most of the same decks and players will still be there and I'll take any little edge that I can get.

I'm pretty sure
that there are some points that eluded me now that I've put most of this out in text for you guys to read, but I think I've delivered the gist of it. On the surface, Eidolon may seem like it's favored by the people that want to interact the least, but I think there's actually a bigger picture to see. I think the more skilled players will be able to be more successful when playing around his "drawback." Just like with Young Pyromancer, I think that playing with Eidolon will force you to make some difficult choices, but the choices you'll have to make are just different ones. The decision trees you'll have to mull over with YP$ are going to be completely different, or even opposite, to what you'll have to decide with the Eidolon.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri May 23, 2014 9:53 pm

Dropped from FNM. Lost to mono black in the third game because mull to 5 into 2x toughtseize is GG. I know that one is just variance, but I actually can't remember the last time I beat UW in a real event. Give me some advice please guys. How / what are you boarding?

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Postby NotARobot » Fri May 23, 2014 9:54 pm

What list did you run dolt?

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri May 23, 2014 9:55 pm

I'm actually considering going back to Ash Zealot.

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri May 23, 2014 9:57 pm

What list did you run dolt?
Old list minus a shock, plus a searing Blood, minus a harness plus a chandra.

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri May 23, 2014 9:57 pm

It's specifically UW.

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Postby Khaospawn » Fri May 23, 2014 10:02 pm

Is Eidolon not helping, LD?
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Postby NotARobot » Fri May 23, 2014 10:03 pm

I see that you were doing 9 in 9 out.. I feel like thats correct. I guess it changes a bit if they are on FSP instead of rams, but not by much.

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Postby Khaospawn » Fri May 23, 2014 10:08 pm

LD, why don't you play Zealot main and then bring in a set Eidolons for added pressure?
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Postby LaZerBurn » Fri May 23, 2014 11:16 pm

@LD - I'm on the same 75 as MDU (well 74 -1 Fated +1 Wear/Tear) and T//T is much better than FDS Vs UW IMHO. He posted a vid beating UW earlier today.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri May 23, 2014 11:34 pm

I watched it. I think I just drew badly. I'll get over it.

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Postby magicdownunder » Sat May 24, 2014 12:43 am

I watched it. I think I just drew badly. I'll get over it.
I actually think control is a hard MU which is why dedicated 8 slots of SB cards too deal with them..... dauntless268 has the same 8 anti-control cards + Chandra for EVEN more hate so going with that is great as well :smileup:
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Postby Aodh » Sat May 24, 2014 6:20 am

Control isn't a hard MU with this deck... That's why we're playing it in the first place. Before they adopted sketchy tech like Fiendslayer Paladin in Esper and Staff in MBD, those matches were "byes".

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sat May 24, 2014 6:25 am

I've been winning enough people are packing FSP hate just for me now lol.


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