Dies to Removal

I submitted my two choices as Scum/Vigilante because "I want to be able to kill someone at night, so no matter what you chose, I get that."

The role PM said I was "Town Two-Shot Vigilante" in bold green font. At Night I may kill another player and I can only use it twice.

Okay, everyone just slow down here for a sec.

Wraith, Dechs, Red and hamfactorial. I want each of you to fully paraphrase your role PM's. Give us what two options you gave Pie, which he chose, and what your actual role name is (this you can quote). The only other information I want is details on how your role works. Just give me the exact details and nothing more - I want a snapshot here, not your life story.

I asked for Town - Godfather, ended up as Town Disabler (and now Town Changeling).

For the role descriptions, Wraith did a good job in explaining
them.

You would have known to if I said something out of line. My first ability is passed around player to player allowing abilities to change hands. Cool.

My ability can somewhat check players for possible scum abilities. Dude, I painted a target on your back.

I think hams ability is way to over powered to be truth in such a small player game.

I submitted my two choices as Scum/Vigilante because "I want to be able to kill someone at night, so no matter what you chose, I get that."

The role PM said I was "Town Two-Shot Vigilante" in bold green font. At Night I may kill another player and I can only use it twice.

We can't have 2 vigilantes in a small game. Ham has to be lying.

Hah, my unprotected 1 vig shot is overpowered? I have to dodge mafia kills at night and work with town during the day (with razor thin margins for error).

:sigh: Fine, if you want to keep trying, let's discuss why you didn't counterclaim ham Day 1.

Here's you Day 1:

Ham is a serious toss up to me. I would have lynched his ass in a heart beat if I was town in Gone Postal (needed to make friends). This game...I don't know now that I have played scum. I REALY don't like that he claimed Neutral. That is a gamble my gut has issues with.

And then Day 2:

I think ham should be looked at as I think he is lieing on his alignment. How many self aligned players are generally in a game?

It really looks as though you decided
overnight that you'd claim neutral. Day 1 you even claimed town a couple of times (not that neutrals wouldn't do this occasionally anyway).

But sure, no harm confirming. PM sent to Pie.

Unvote.

If 2 vigilantes shot 2 town players, scum would be heavily over favored to win. I doubt there are 2 vigilantes. I would have believed you if you only claimed the hide ability.

If 2 vigilantes shot 2 town players, scum would be heavily over favored to win. I doubt there are 2 vigilantes. I would have believed you if you only claimed the hide ability.

If two vigilantes shot two town players, it would be a probability miracle.

Wraith:

I doubt it, the meat of your accusation revolves around a game having 2 self-aligned players. You would have believed me if I'd pretended to be a vanilla survivor?

Vigs are tough. They can make the game swingy if they pick wrong, but my opinion is that the more kills town controls, the better. A survivor with a vig shot is quite powerful. Nothing about Dechs' role bugs me as far as the setup goes though.

Dechs, why did you lie about your role? Who would you have shot if you'd had the chance?

I never lied. I was just never explicit and I didn't correct you when you labeled me a cop. Like I already said, I didn't want to be the scum night kill target. I have two shots. I planned to claim the Vig part explicitly today after my first shot because I'd still get to make the second before scum killed me.

I had a couple targets picked out but hadn't decided on one. Before Night began for me, though, I was disabled, so I figured I'd be better off forgetting about it until this Day was over.

Also,

Unvote

LMD is the least of my worries right now.

Who were the couple targets? How do you consider the following to NOT be a lie?

I target someone at night and as long as I'm not blocked or the target is protected, I'll know his alignment and role the next day.

Yes, I waited to counter claim and glad I did. It was alluded to in day 1 that I had issue with his claim.

I also pm'd the mod to disable ham.

@DK, ham bombed himself and survived! don't tell me about probabilities.

@ham, it makes no sense to have 2 self aligned players and a huge list of other factions. Yes, I would have believed it as it would be balanced somewhat then. Your claim is outrageously powerful for this game. Unless Kaze's ability was an indicator of the game power. Your ability is still in question then as you are a dodger of vigilantes as kaze was or could perform.

By the way, Pie confirmed that Serial Killer is a legit choice for role. Not sure how that works, but Wraith's claim is okay now.

Who were the couple targets? How do you consider the following to NOT be a lie?

I target someone at night and as long as I'm not blocked or the target is protected, I'll know his alignment and role the next day.

I would target someone at Night and as long as I wasn't blocked or the target protected, I'd know his alignment and role the next day because we'd all see his PM. There's no lie. There's just a tiny missing clarification.

My couple targets were Wraith, Imopen, LMD and Rez. Basically anyone that wasn't you, Ham, or Red.
This was before I knew Kaze was scum. Knowing what he flipped was going to help me decide who to pick, but I haven't done that analysis yet because I was disabled before I got there.

Haha, that's actually pretty funny.

... I don't know about you. I need to reread my Dechs case. And the period surrounding your claim. My getting picky about your role did force you to lie, or at least obviously mislead.

Like I started this day out: I fully expect you guys to lynch me now. All rational and obvious evidence points to me as the scum team.

1. There should only be one scum left.
2. No night kill happened.
3. I'm the number 1 scum suspect from yesterday.
4. I claimed that I was disabled.
5. The disabler confirmed that.
6. A changeling confirmed that ability.

So, I've laid everything out now. I am being serious when I suggest you just hang me and get it over with. Then you'll be able to trust everything I've said. If you lynch someone else, you could still hit a townie and we'd be at Day 3 with the doubt around me still lingering and clouding decisions.

Just clear my name now; it should make the rest of the Days easier.

Like I started this day out: I fully expect you guys to lynch me now. All rational and obvious evidence points to me as the scum team.

1. There should only be one scum left.
2. No night kill happened.
3. I'm the number 1 scum suspect from yesterday.
4. I claimed that I was disabled.
5. The disabler confirmed that.
6. A changeling confirmed that ability.

So, I've laid everything out now. I am being serious when I suggest you just hang me and get it over with. Then you'll be able to trust everything I've said. If you lynch someone else, you could still hit a townie and we'd be at Day 3 with the doubt around me still lingering and clouding decisions.

Just clear my name now; it should make the rest of the Days easier.

Little
early for that? Good story but ham is my target, and should be yours. Get behind it and make your life count. The evidence is solid that we lynch scum or another faction at least.

Edit "enemy faction"

I wish Red hadn't blocked you. Losing one townie last night would have easily been worth getting a confirmed role out of you (regardless of whether or not you're scum).

DK:

Stop trying to suicide, we need to clear up this Wraith counterclaim nonsense.

Wraith:

You claim survivor, where's your hide ability? Why didn't you target me last night to prove your counter-claim?

If you disabled me, I'm free to be investigated tonight. Come at me, bros.

The hide ability is not necessarily a Survivor thing. In fact, I've never seen a Survivor with that ability. Who did you hide behind last night?

ham is definitely not mafia. Not a chance. His Survivor abilities are very powerful and his ability to hide makes him an unlikely target for basically everyone now that he's claimed it. It's possible that he's a serial killer given his claimed abilities and actions so far this game. However, I think this is unlikely since I'm assuming that we have a mafia team of some sort since Kaze wouldn't be mafia all by himself (probably). 2 scum, 1 SK is a lot for 6 town players to take on, even if that SK only has 1 shot.

DK:

Stop trying to suicide, we need to clear up this Wraith counterclaim nonsense.

Wraith:

You claim survivor, where's your hide ability? Why didn't you target me last night to prove your counter-claim?

If you disabled me, I'm free to be investigated tonight. Come at me, bros.

Red was still in my sights for possible scum as I though kaze was bussing red. The other scum target was you. My ability allowed me to check red and I found a town ability. I knew you were lying but was not sure if you are scum or another dangerous faction.

Wish the mod would answer his damn PM. He answered stardusts? Wtf?

ham is definitely not mafia. Not a chance. His Survivor abilities are very powerful and his ability to hide makes him an unlikely target for basically everyone now that he's claimed it. It's possible that he's a serial killer given his claimed abilities and actions so far this game. However, I think this is unlikely since I'm assuming that we have a mafia team of some sort since Kaze wouldn't be mafia all by himself (probably). 2 scum, 1 SK is a lot for 6 town players to take on, even if that SK only has 1 shot.

What?

We caught him in 2 counter claims: Self aligned and vigilante. If he is any of the other factions; they have
to be dangerous to town.

Wraith, this isn't a normal set up. One Vig claim doesn't mean that no one else can be vig. Because we got the power to choose, if Ham and you both picked self aligned or Serial Killer, the only way to make the game not totally bastard as hell is to give you both self aligned roles.

The lack of a hide ability makes me wonder what the hell Wraith is doing, along with his poor timing. Why not counter immediately?

If he gets me lynched, I'll flip survivor and he'll get lynched the following day for lying, which seems like an exceedingly poor play and completely against his stated win-con.

@Stardust: I hid behind LMD last night.

I have no reason to believe either Ham or Wraith is lying. The way Wraith acted Day 1 indicates that he did not like the self aligned claim because he was self aligned and he didn't think the game could be set up that way. But we got the choices. You guys both wanted Self Aligned/Serial Killer. Pie was basically forced to pick Self Aligned for both. It makes a very tough game for town, but he warned us from the start these choices could fuck up the game pretty hard.

Hey guys, new line of thought here:

Why was there no night kill?

The scum night kill was either unsuccessful or it wasn't used. If it wasn't successful, something stopped it. Do any of you feel like claiming bulletproof or doctor? Probably not, and I can't even recommend it. Do we have another flavor of role block or maybe a Jailer? Was anyone jailed? Claiming that tells us that you're either the scum's target or the scum.

The lack of a hide ability makes me wonder what the hell Wraith is doing, along with his poor timing. Why not counter immediately?

If he gets me lynched, I'll flip survivor and he'll get lynched the following day for lying, which seems like an exceedingly poor play and completely against his stated win-con.

@Stardust: I hid behind LMD last night.

There was a strong chance kaze was scum, thus why let that slide by? You voted kaze very smoothly and it pinged my radar. Since scum got lynched; I support town now for the win as scum was lynched. I am hedging my bets on this play to win the game day 2 if possible. Perfect timing as far as I am concerned. I win when any faction wins as long as I am alive. You are floundering.

Ham could
be lying on his claim. Mine is confirmed on the ability and it is not anywhere close to the power ham has.

Everyone please stop looking at Ham and Wraith. I believe the claim that they both asked for Self Aligned/Serial Killer. That means these guys are either some flavor of self aligned or they're serial killers. Since no one died last night, it's extremely unlikely that either of them is a serial killer. The only reasonable conclusion is that they're both self aligned.

Wraith:

Everything pings your fucking radar. Who's to say I voted Kaze smoothly? I discussed both him and DK with Stardust yesterday, and put my vote on the absentee to avoid a NL day 1. Simply saying I'm floundering does not make it so.

Amusing that your stated strategy is a copy of mine (play pro-town) but you've only now adopted it on day 2.

You've disabled me, so anyone is welcome to investigate me or kill me tonight.

Amusing that your stated strategy is a copy of mine (play pro-town) but you've only now adopted it on day 2.

That's actually the smart move (not what you'd expect from Wraith, I know). Claiming Self Aligned on day one was very dangerous of you to do. Notice how quickly I reasoned out why we should hang you. I mean, it's why I really believe that you're a third party: you claimed when it wasn't very advantageous to do so. Especially after that, though, Wraith wouldn't want to claim; he's truly playing for himself. He waited to see that town lynched scum before picking a loyalty.

Imagine if they had hung me yesterday and a night kill happened. There'd be two neutrals, two scum, and only three town. Both of you would have flipped the
instant Wraith claimed he was also neutral. The game would already be over. Wraith did the smartest thing with respect to his alignment. That's why I believe him.

Hey Stardust, who did you target last night?

Just trust me on this one.

Ham, Wraith, I'm going to assume you're both self aligned.

Right now it should be five town, two of you, and one scum. Your odds are way better with town right now, so do yourselves and us a favor and help us find the last scumbucket. Stop wasting time with each other.

In respect to DK and he could be right, I checked through the posts again. Here are a few players I am looking at.

Imopen2- he wanted to lynch kaze way to early to be scum. His vote did flip flip a lot, but he could have swung big for scum at that moment. Not scum to me.

LMD- really hard to read. He buttered up to DK with saying he was not going to lynch kaze. I think he would be capable of bussing kaze if he was scum. He also requested that kaze respond as I did in the gone postal game trying to save RCW. Decent chance he is scum.

Rez- has been scum hunting hard but vote flipping bad. He has done it so often now that it means nothing for pressure. He is seriously in my null pile.

Stardust- tried like hell to lynch me. Twice or three times now? When other players find my claims valid, he backs off. Also, I the mod did not respond to me till way later. How did the mod respond to stardust before me when my request
went in before his? It could be nothing but it caught my attention.

Ham- dude you voted kaze with little or no reason. My vote stays on you.

Ham, Wraith, I'm going to assume you're both self aligned.

Right now it should be five town, two of you, and one scum. Your odds are way better with town right now, so do yourselves and us a favor and help us find the last scumbucket. Stop wasting time with each other.

I can confirm my ability. Ham can't. Letting this go is what he is betting on.

Yeah. But you confirmed your ability in the last game. That means little to nothing.

Ham, Wraith, I'm going to assume you're both self aligned.

Right now it should be five town, two of you, and one scum. Your odds are way better with town right now, so do yourselves and us a favor and help us find the last scumbucket. Stop wasting time with each other.

I can confirm my ability. Ham can't. Letting this go is what he is betting on.

You claim to have disabled me, how can I actively prove anything tonight? Where have I shown any desire to let this go? DK is the one suggesting we focus on the no-kill last night.

Ham, Wraith, I'm going to assume you're both self aligned.

Right now it should be five town, two of you, and one scum. Your odds are way better with town right now, so do yourselves and us a favor and help us find the last scumbucket. Stop wasting time with each other.

I can confirm my ability. Ham can't. Letting this go is what he is betting on.

You claim to have disabled me, how can I actively
prove anything tonight? Where have I shown any desire to let this go? DK is the one suggesting we focus on the no-kill last night.

You should have been notified, thus not a claim anymore. I am going all in for ham as scum. If there is another suspect worth voting for since yesterday's votes; where are the cases?

Where the hell us LMD and imopen2?