Dies to Removal

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 12:36 pm**

Some time today/tonight I'm gonna post a huge 40 game set vs brave naya to test the firedancers vs it. Have a job interview today so that will cut into my testing some LOL. Hate summers the university were I work is closed so I have a lot of time on my hands sigh.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 1:56 pm**

I went 3-1 with my wacky list during the DE (I was getting land **** left and right D:), I'll be scrapping this experiment from this point on and switching too the Z land base though I still debating the Mana Confluence vs Boros Gate war (I have accepted that more then 4 non-red lands is incorrect with blood and revel though).

We're playing a deck which taps out often and rarely leaves behind ongoing pressure (unless CP or YP sticks

) is 2x Mana Confluence correct or should they be RW Gates?

Maybe it should be 1/1 or 0/2 choices.... choices..... (I'll love to hear your thoughts on this guys).

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 2:29 pm**

Mana Confluence is pretty amazing. Even when I had it in my opening hands, its pretty easy to not have to play it early until you need the untapped source.

I sort of like this creature base:

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Satyr Firedancer

Which would allow both

4 Firedirnker
4 Toil

in the SB. YP$ to me is strictly better than SFD in the control matchup, and maybe slightly better in the Bx matchup. Junk is what scares me, and SFD is the nuts in that matchup. Banishing Light as a 1 of seems ok, I certainly wont run two again. I lost a couple matches where I was just wishing I had another burn spell in my deck, which is why I like SFD. With him in the deck, I can keep in most burn spells.

Got "States" this weekend with most everyone else, the meta will be pretty close to what SCG knox was, so I need to plan accordingly, unfortunately no time to test Revel

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:01 pm**

It's interesting that we considered Eidolon against cheap aggro decks; I think he would really shine against control decks, despite the fact that he's most prone to removal in those matchups. I might try him out in the board against control as opposed to Trouble or FDS. I wish I could run FDS knowing it would be totally safe, but I hate the idea of getting next-leveled by their ram.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:03 pm**

@ MDU, where are you bringing in Reprisal?

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:07 pm**

@ MDU, where are you bringing in Reprisal?

It's good vs junk, monsters and Bx devotion.

I won a match at the open by my opponent playing a Demon instead of Gary (trying to play around Skullcrack) and instead got blown out by an EoT Reprisal.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:11 pm**

Actually, looking at the most recent control list on mtgtop8, it runs zero last breath and relies mostly on black removal. Their SB plan against burn seems to be around discard and playing creatures that cause us problems. I think Eidolon matches up pretty well against that plan.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:21 pm**

@ MDU, where are you bringing in Reprisal?

Monsters (only one, if you have 4x MM don't use it because you only have 12 targets, 8 of which require work

), Junk (its great here), BG Rock, BW Control, GW, G Devo and B Aggro.

I'm not sure if these decks are common enough too run 2x so I may cut one down soon.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:30 pm**

You didn't side it in vs black in your video, which had me scratching my head.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:31 pm**

Just went 3-0 in a SE running into Bant Control, Esper Humans and MonoR Aggro (running titan strength, dragon mantle + Prophetic flamespeaker)

Normally I wouldnt report on a simple SE especially when you look at the MUs i faced, but the Bant control deck was running green for courser plus a lot of rams.
He had a draw of 2 rams and 2 coursers in one game but I still 2-0'd him. My conclusion is that the rams are pretty much a worse version of the shit-stick that monoB used to run for 5 minutes until they realized it is shit.
At no point did I feel that the 1 point + X lifegain per turn that he was able to manage had any relevant board impact at all. It prevented him from playing early detention spheres and holding up counters so I could simply run out one threat after the other.
In all matchups Eidolon was great to game breaking. I was on the draw in 6 of 7 games and had no issues being ahead or making sure,
that I was ahead when Eidolon was cast. Be it on turn 2 or turn 5-X. Prophetic flamespeaker was shit tbh. That type of deck, when you start putting in TS and dragon mantle, get's 2 for 1'd on almost every turn. Sure, he managed to get me in one game with pumped doublestrike, but I wasn't far off stabilizing the next turn. This has pretty much shut the door on me giving flamespeaker a go.

I was running the old mana base with 2 GG, 1 Temple of malice and 1 Temple of silence and was happy, just as I have been the past weeks. No rush to spend 20 tickets on mana confluence for me.
I changed MDU's list with 2x flames instead of searing blood, 2x reprisal and 2x mortars, 1x WT, 1x Chandra, no banishing light and the rest pretty much the same. Thanks for providing a great shell mate!

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:34 pm**

If you're running eidolon and/or searing blood, you want 19 red sources. I have the math around somewhere. If you're not, you can go 18 red/12 white.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:36 pm**

With an expected rise in mirrors, I feel bad cutting chandra.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:40 pm**

I don't think I'll ever cut Chandra as long as I'm playing YP. The card is very good in a lot of matchups.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 3:43 pm**

Also: If they have ram in the SB, they dont have Fiendslayer Paladin. At least in all the decks I've seen on MTGTOP8. And when I ask myself what I would rather face now or in the future, it's hands down the ram. Especially if they really are that hive-minded and all start running ram (which they aren't), then I'll simply up my W/T count from 1 to 2 or three and consider 1 in the MD. So am I missing something or is ram overrated? especially since FSP is a much much better blocker.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 4:13 pm**

I'd rather play against Ram than FSP or Courser, but they're all annoying. They make Viashino Fistblade no longer viable whereas you could run that into the other two.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 4:22 pm**

One thing I want to mention about why I think I struggled with the junk matchup. Post board I was 2 Banishing Light and 4 chains. Courser was the biggest problem as when you exiled it, they had SO many ways to bring it back. I think 4 Mizzium Mortars is definitely the right call. I don't think the 2nd Banishing Light (taking up a SB slot) is needed, I am currently not sure if the first one is either.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 4:27 pm**

I'd rather play against Ram than FSP or Courser, but they're all annoying. They make Viashino Fistblade no longer viable whereas you could run that into the other two.

Sure, but have you been playing viashino at all lately? I sideboarded him in about 3 times in the last 4 weeks and was always disappointed since a lot of BOs are still around. Ram at least does zero damage to our creature and we can lightning strike it away, if we are running a ground-creature plan, depending on what we have in hand. and even if you dont have a LS, you can at least still attack with 2 creatures or vaults and get some damage in. Courser and FSP stop any ground aggro combo + removal, unless we are willing
to 2 for 1 ourselves or have boros charm+ threat vs FSP in hand AND he is tapped out (barring the usual mizziums or chained).

JPablo was running 4 FSPs in his SB the last time he had a top 8 deck on MTGO (before JOU). now THAT is scary. I shit my pants thinking about facing multiple FSPs in game 2. Especially since I stopped running my 2 of anger with JOU.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 4:48 pm**

I face enough weenie decks it seems that I probably will be hard pressed to go down to 1-0 Chandra. I probably don't need her to win those matches but it helps.

I swapped my videos to Youtube. These are ones I already posted previously but got lost on Twitch. Nothing earthshaking in the builds.

Pre Journey burn

All I did was grab 2 banishing light and a reprisal for Journey since the prices were still high since it was only the prerelease stage.

Post Journey burn with Banishing light

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 7:01 pm**

[deck]
Creatures (8)

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Satyr Firedancer

Lands (24)

8 Mountain
2 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Spells (28)

2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

SB
4 FDS
4 Toil
2 Wear
1 Reprisal
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Mortars
1 Burning Earth[/deck]

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 7:02 pm**

I thought of this sunday and then saw it on the list from the TCG 5k in mass. IS nyx-fleece RAM tech for us if the mirror becomes prevalent?

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 7:22 pm**

I truly doubt it. Burn mirrors don't go that many turns. That said, go test it if you want.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 7:28 pm**

Burn Mirrors are won by who drops chandra pyromaster first, and who isnt forced to magma jet on Turn 2.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 7:54 pm**

I do think that is something worth considering though if you plan on taking Burn to a "States" event this weekend. How can we help hedge without hurting the other matchups.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 7:55 pm**

I thought of this sunday and then saw it on the list from the TCG 5k in mass. IS nyx-fleece RAM tech for us if the mirror becomes prevalent?

I was also considering it with the justification that it strengthens our matchup against Big Boros (Red Devotion) and Weenie strats.
However our Weenie matchup is already a freeroll, and Big Boros isn't popular enough to devote slots to.

I do like it more than Peak Eruption though, which I do run in Burn heavy metas.
If I go to states this weekend I'll be sleeving them up in-case I decide to include them.

I truly doubt it. Burn mirrors don'
t go that many turns. That said, go test it if you want.

To be fair, it only needs to gain 2-4 life to refund it's investment and after that it gives you inevitability.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 8:05 pm**

I went 3-1 with my wacky list during the DE (I was getting land **** left and right D:), I'll be scrapping this experiment from this point on and switching too the Z land base though I still debating the Mana Confluence vs Boros Gate war (I have accepted that more then 4 non-red lands is incorrect with blood and revel though).

We're playing a deck which taps out often and rarely leaves behind ongoing pressure (unless CP or YP sticks ) is 2x Mana Confluence correct or should they be RW Gates?

Maybe it should be 1/1 or 0/2 choices.... choices..... (I'll love to hear your thoughts
on this guys).

Technically, Mana Confluence is good when you have to hit RR on T2 (like when you run Eidolon or Ash). According to Frank Karsten, you need 13 Red Sources that come into play untapped. If you only run YP (and thus Mutavault counts towards those 13 untapped sources) then it's not strictly necessary. With Eidolon in the SB it's a borderline case, I guess.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 8:21 pm**

I thought of this sunday and then saw it on the list from the TCG 5k in mass. IS nyx-fleece RAM tech for us if the mirror becomes prevalent?

I truly doubt it. Burn mirrors don't go that many turns. That said, go test it if you want.
To be fair, it only needs to gain 2-4 life to refund it's investment and after that it gives you inevitability.

At 2-4 life, you've only caught back up on cards
since it's effectively negate at that point. If it's blocking creatures though, it's much more profitable. Allows tapping out and not getting cracked by mutavaults a possibility I guess. Like I said, test it. I wouldn't do it as an audible though.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 8:40 pm**

If we were to change the scrylands, Malice and Silence, to Enlightment and Epiphany we could run Turn//Burn as an answer to small things early and big things late. it might be worth testing, if it is relevant in any matchups.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 8:48 pm**

Unless you have creatures to kill the turned creature, it's a 5 mana terror in a deck that has 1 mana terrors. That said, feel free to test it.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 8:51 pm**

Turn/Burn will handle Blood Baron, Obzedat, all the Gods. It's a great card. I personally wouldn't want to lose T/T, but everyone is different and so is their meta.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 9:06 pm**

While generally true, it's still ruining our manabases for a card that fulfills a similar role to the ones we already have.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 9:26 pm**

So how has eidolon of the great revel worked out for everyone? I was happy with 4 in the main but I see that some of you are running 2 in the main or 1 in the main and the rest in the sideboard? Also has anyone tried out dictate of the twin gods yet?

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 9:35 pm**

Turn/Burn is such an underpowered card to splash for >_>

Also, this deck needs zero hedges for the Red devotion matchup. That's one of your best matchups.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 9:59 pm**

So how has eidolon of the great revel worked out for everyone? I was happy with 4 in the main but I see that some of you are running 2 in the main or 1 in the main and the rest in the sideboard? Also has anyone tried out dictate of the twin gods yet?

Dictate is my next to test.

So, you've tested with 4 revels against aggro decks and still found it favorable? That's the one I had the hardest time understanding.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 10:44 pm**

Also, this deck needs zero hedges for the Red devotion matchup. That's one of your best matchups.

What the-... Red Devotion one of our best matchups? Are we talking about the deck that overloads on threats that are hard to burn out (Boros Reckoner, Frostburn Weird, Stormbreath Dragon), can easily race us if we don't control their board, and has nut hands like Double BTE into Nykthos shenanigans?

I think I've heard every deck besides Hexproof get called a bye or a best matchup in this thread.

I think burn needs zero hedges against Red Devo because it's not popular.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 10:51 pm**

Have you guys come to a consensus on Eidolon? I may have time to test tonight. Call me crazy, but I'm also considering a return to ash zealot.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 11:06 pm**

Also, this deck needs zero hedges for the Red devotion matchup. That's one of your best matchups.
What the-... Red Devotion one of our best matchups? Are we talking about the deck that overloads on threats that are hard to burn out (Boros Reckoner, Frostburn Weird, Stormbreath Dragon), can easily race us if we don't control their board, and has nut hands like Double BTE into Nykthos shenanigans?

I think I've heard every deck besides Hexproof get called a bye or a best matchup in this thread.

I think burn needs zero hedges against Red Devo because it's not popular.[/quote:
2evutxt3]

I'm one of like, 3 people who knows what he's talking about when it comes to Red devotion and Burn is the matchup I'd least like to face...ever.

And yes, burn has lots of great matchups. The problem with the deck is when it's opponents draw certain cards in the right order, the burn player struggles to catch up because it relies on a critical mass of cards all doing the same thing.

Devotion red struggles because it can't present any disruption and in a pure race situation, burn's faster with the option of disrupting the opponent if it wants/needs to. The devotion red deck gets rolling by getting 4 devotion on board and either powering up nykthos or slamming fanatics. Unfortunately, all the cheap stuff generally has 2 toughness and burn plays cards like shock and seering blood which are pretty savage beatings against my strategy especially in the games where you draw nykthos, but can't get your devotion above four making that land either colorless or a mulligan.

I could go on
and on, but it'd be easier if you just take my word for it. Hell, I disagree with Z a lot more lately then I normally do and I even think he says this is burns best matchup.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 11:07 pm**

Also, for anyone playing in So-Cal, If I'm at the tourney, you're probably going to have to beat devotion red to win

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2014 11:11 pm**

Consensus is something you're unlikely to find, but overall I think the public opinion is that the card is good against mono-black and control which are basically the 2 most important decks in the format so wherever you put it in your deck, it probably deserves a spot in your 75.

THIS IS NOT MY OPINON, I'VE DONE ZERO TESTING WITH THE CARD.

Posted: **Wed May 14, 2014 12:48 am**

Dictate's awesome but probably not correct. I messed around with Dega no-permanent burn today and I literally one-hit KO'd an Esper and a UW player because of it. Did some work, but probably just overkill. 2-0 Esper, 2-1 UW, 1-2 Bant, 2-0 MBA, 2-1 Bg Devotion, 1-2 Bw Devotion, 2-0 MBD.

Posted: **Wed May 14, 2014 12:54 am**

I'm trying out Sideboarding Dictate and Eidolon of the Great Revel. Dictate is for MB and Eidolon is for control. I think Eidolon is fine because it's a dude that will almost always do 2 despite Blind Obedience, and he seems pretty stellar against the control decks boarding in ram, as they also tend to board for less removal and more creatures. Plus, he is a continuous source of damage against their continuous source of lifegain.

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn

Battle report

Also