Dies to Removal

Everyone with a pulse knee Chandra was good. The Gauntlet on the other hand requires a very specific card pool and meta to be considered even remotely playable, not to mention a deck with the right amount of cards to make it live for one third of the time. I do like the card a lot right now.

I can agree about the gauntlet. I put it in when I thought that the games would go long and I was on the draw. If Chandra is on the field it's basically a win con, sort of like the hammer. I think 2 is the most you should have at maximum, 1 seemed to be all right.

@Johnny_Spike - It is tough to stay humble and to give your opponents the respect that they deserve. My Granpda would always tell me that during the Vietnam War he required the men in his unit to refer to the Viet Kong as "Mr. Charles". He always said that the moment you stop respecting your enemy is the
moment you die. I think it applies to Magic as well. When I was testing this deck out against my buddy's ghetto green with bling (as he likes to call it) that's basically a bunch of bulk rares, uncommons, commons, and 4 scavenging oozes, I thought it was a crappy deck and that I would beat easily. Reality hit me and he proceeded to kick my ass for the next 4 hours of testing.

When I was testing this deck out against my buddy's ghetto green with bling (as he likes to call it) that's basically a bunch of bulk rares, uncommons, commons, and 4 scavenging oozes, I thought it was a crappy deck and that I would beat easily. Reality hit me and he proceeded to kick my ass for the next 4 hours of testing.

I am so curious to your friend's deck list

@DerWille: Mono green is hard, if that makes you feel better. My buddy has been refining a strong mono green list since Theros was spoiled, and Z's latest red list is the only thing that has been able to beat it regularly.

What kinds of creatures? I can't even imagine. Certainly not a real deck.

Off to a bad start. Lost 1-2 to the U/B cipher deck from last night. G3 opened a hand of Mountain, Firedrinker, BTE, BTE, BTE, Mizzium Mortars, Lightning Strike then never drew another land. Tilting hard. You can't mull that hand, but you obviously lose if you don't draw land. I guess that's one reason to dislike BTE; she makes you keep bad hands.

That hands actually an auto-mulligan on the play IMO; BTE chan is only busted on turn 2; and you're like ~45% to hit, 55% to be way behind. About 25% of the time you miss twice and then you're just dead.

I don't think BTE was the problem per se, try to be more logical and less 'emotional'. Not a great word, but I hope you know what I mean.

I also don't understand your
fixation with the 0/3 plant. Yes it's a great card, and it's particularly good against our decks. You just have to deal with it as well as you can. It may not end up being that popular since its really bad vs. UWx control.

All the green midrange decks seem to run the plant. It brick walls a creature a turn, whick I think is troublesome if you aren't playing with 3/x's. How do you deal with it? Just ignore it and accept that it chumps a guy every turn?

Perhaps it is incorrect to keep that hand (as it is obviously risky) bit I have heard pros like Kibler say you have to keep that hand.

Yeah, I basically just accept it. It's not all upside for them;
- it's a fairly unexciting top deck
- it's a passive card, so in certain draws it does nothing (eg. You have satyr > phoenix)
- it's going to get wiped by overloaded mortars post board
- it can't pressure Chandra, who's already a beating in the matchup.
It's a very good card against us, but it's not the sort of card that I feel you need to directly answer; if you can beat what it ramps into, then it's not a big deal. Does that make sense?

If love to see how Kibler justifies the keep, other than 'if I hit a land, obviously I win'. Logic and maths are both against the keep, so I don't get it ~ and I'm someone who'll keep nearly anything.

So I have been thinking about piloting a RDW deck before Theros hits mtgo. A few sparring in tourney practice gave a good result to most decks - except for bant enchant. The moment Unflinching Courage lands on either of the hexproof creatures, it's usually a loss cause from there. Any tips on how to handle that?

Post rotation, I don't think Bant Enchant will be much of a deck, so I wouldn't worry too much. They lose their best creature and the mana base gets a million times worse. You're basically wanting to race them every game and those small changes should shift the matchup more in our favour.

When I was testing this deck out against my buddy's ghetto green with bling (as he likes to call it) that's basically a bunch of bulk rares, uncommons, commons, and 4 scavenging oozes, I thought it was a crappy deck and that I would beat easily. Reality hit me and he proceeded to kick my ass for the next 4 hours of testing.

I am so curious to your friend's deck list

It was something like this

[deck]
Creatures (30)
Elvish Mystic x4
[card]
Experiment One[/card] x4
Kalonian Tusker x4
Gyre Sage x1
Scavenging Ooze x4
Witchstalker x1
Crocanurax4
Deadbridge Goliath x4
Kalonian Hydra x1
Nessian Asp x3

Spells (8)
[card]Ranger's Guile[/card] x4
Pit Fight x4

Land (20)
Forestx20

Other (2)
Some other card I can't remember
[/deck]

Basically, every creature in my deck that wasn't a golem token only had 2 power, so most of his creatures could sit there and block without any problems. In addition, a bunch of them grow, Experiment One, Scavenging Ooze, Gyre Sage, and Crocanura in particular. So the only way I had to force through damage was to burn everything in my path or rely on firefist striker
procs. However, he liked to wait for me to attack, ranger's guile in respond to the firefist proc, and then block the firefist. After that, it's nearly impossible to push through damage as he brings in more and more x/3's or more x/3's pop up. Then, he'd stabilize his life total by eating every single creature in the graveyards and get some monster scavenging ooze.

I was able to beat him eventually by taking out all my 1 drops, magma jets, 2 chandra's phoenixes, and sub in every bit of burn that did at least 3 damage and boros reckoners. If I just took a scorched earth policy, I could force out the ranger's guiles and then blow it up anyway. The other way to win is if I could force through 5 creatures by turn 3 like, 1 drop, BTE->2 drop, 2 drop and 1 drop. If I could keep field to 1 or 2 creatures it wasn't too bad. It's when the horde of x/3's came out that almost all my cards became dead.

How do you deal with suited-up Hexproof creatures or Fiendslayer Paladin in Bant Enchant?

And how do you keep up with folks' latest lists?

I wouldn't worry Bant Enchant. It's not really going to be a player in the meta so I'm willing to have a bad matchup against it. Ratchet Bomb and Anger of the Gods is about all we have.

How do you deal with suited-up Hexproof creatures or Fiendslayer Paladin in Bant Enchant?

And how do you keep up with folks' latest lists?

I'm figuring you have to deal with this at your LGS. There's a few ways I can think of, but none of them are very good.

1. Until the paladin is enchanted, attack or block with something that is at least a 2/3. I'd recommend a Boros Reckoner because you can negate the life gain by sending the damage back at him.
2. Skullcrackthe life gain and win on the swing back.
3. If he's leaving the Paladin on defense, I believe that Chandra, Pyromaster's +1 should be able to target him and let you get another big swing
in. [RULES CHECK THIS]
4. Firefist Striker's battalion trigger should also let you stop the Paladin from blocking.
5. Stormbreath Dragon has protection from white and can theoretically absorb some of his damage, but that's such a waste of a fine dragon.
6. Stack block with a bunch of first strikers. Yes, you'll lose alot in the process.
7. Burning Earth punishes the hell out of that deck if it gets to turns 4 or more.
8. Make your deck faster to take advantage of his shakey mana base. Maybe some sort of Legion Loyalist + Dynachargeshenanigans for a transformational sideboard to more of an AIR list.

Chandra's +1 does work on the Paladin.

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

I've actually started to do that. It's not as bad as you'd think (I thought the exact same). If you have AZ and BTE in your hand, just cast that goddamn AZ and wait till opponent will consider the pressure as too big and sweep the board, so now you can rebuild the field with BTE chaining into something else (few turns later).

I'd really love to hear your opinion on some card choices in terms of RDW archetype.

Burning Earth vs Peak Eruption
Burning Earth hoses any 3-colored deck into oblivion. Peak Eruption matters in some mirror matchups (being on play, locking someone away from Fanatic/Chandra mana and still bolting), is
decent against 2-colored Red decks (Kuroda Boros mostly) and wrecks 3-colored decks with Mountains.
The differnce is Esper matchup vs Mono Red mirrors and two-colored Red decks.

Anger of the Gods vs Flames of the Firebrand
I've seen that AotG works in aggro's SB. It's usually all about bluffing out lack of early drops (or actually removing them from your deck). AotG hoses Red mirrors and Gx decks. Flames of the Firebrand allows you to put the pressure though and still obtain valuable 2for1. Or just go for 3 for the face. Taking away that Satyr and Zealot, or BTE and Firefist Striker. With meta being full of 1 toughness, it's pretty damn strong.

Gore-House Chainwalker
Is 3 toughness really relevant? If so, in what kind of matchups. Are people using Caryatids, Tuskers, Phalanxes enough to make us play Chainy-boy?

Legion Loyalist
I'd consider him to be the big game as FS is relevant as hell these days, not to mention
token-hosing capability which becomes handy against Young Pyromancer or Advent of the Wurm.

Ember Swallower vs Fanatic of Mogis vs nothing
4CMC creature drop is worth discussion. Ember Swallower has great, anti-aggro body and mana sink that can win games. Fanatic of Mogis is just like a coinflip dependant largely on amount of boardswipes in meta - nut up or shut up. Nothing... we don't need to play 4CMC creatures at all, especially when we have Chandra.

Opinions? Protips?

What kinds of creatures? I can't even imagine. Certainly not a real deck.

It is his private list, so I can't share it until after states. But it is a real deck. I've played against it and watched it being played for 40 or so games against the entire gauntlet, and it just trashes so many decks. More so than being strong against any one deck, it has a decent matchup against everything- think Death & Taxes in Legacy; it attacks the meta in a similar way.

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

I've actually started to do that. It's not as bad as you'd think (I thought the exact same). If you have AZ and BTE in your hand, just cast that goddamn AZ and wait till opponent will consider the pressure as too big and sweep the board, so now you can rebuild the field with BTE chaining into something else (few turns later).

I'd really love to hear your opinion on some card choices in terms of RDW archetype.

Not sure if this was directed at me in particular or to the group as a
whole but I'll put in my .02

Burning Earth vs Peak Eruption
Burning Earth hoses any 3-colored deck into oblivion. Peak Eruption matters in some mirror matchups (being on play, locking someone away from Fanatic/Chandra mana and still bolting), is decent against 2-colored Red decks (Kuroda Boros mostly) and wrecks 3-colored decks with Mountains.
The differnce is Esper matchup vs Mono Red mirrors and two-colored Red decks.

Anger of the Gods vs Flames of the Firebrand
I've seen that AotG works in aggro's SB. It's usually all about bluffing out lack of early drops (or actually removing them from your deck). AotG hoses Red mirrors and Gx decks. Flames of the Firebrand allows you to put the pressure though and still obtain valuable 2for1. Or just go for 3 for the face. Taking away that Satyr and Zealot, or BTE and Firefist Striker. With meta being full of 1 toughness, it's pretty damn strong.

Gore-House Chainwalker[/b:
1ft4sklb]
Is 3 toughness really relevant? If so, in what kind of matchups. Are people using Caryatids, Tuskers, Phalanxes enough to make us play Chainy-boy?

Legion Loyalist
I'd consider him to be the big game as FS is relevant as hell these days, not to mention token-hosing capability which becomes handy against Young Pyromancer or Advent of the Wurm.

Ember Swallower vs Fanatic of Mogis vs nothing
4CMC creature drop is worth discussion. Ember Swallower has great, anti-aggro body and mana sink that can win games. Fanatic of Mogis is just like a coinflip dependant largely on amount of boardswipes in meta - nut up or shut up. Nothing... we don't need to play 4CMC creatures at all, especially when we have Chandra.

I feel a lot of your comparisons are meta dependent as well as play style dependent. Personally I'd play burning earth over peak eruption because with the exception of boros, I don't really see any other red decks or
decks with red in them atm that will be severly punished by it. I think that a lot of decks with red in them besides Mono Red will be 3 color and will therefore be very vulnerable to Burning Earth.

I don't particularly see anger of the gods being that big of a blow out against decks other than G/W which as the rest of the forum has covered. Flames would do well in a world of aggro because unlike AoG it will clear blockers on your opponents side without you sacrificing your team. Basically You want AoG when the majority of your creatures have big buts and can survive the hit.

I don't see 3 toughness being super relevant this early in the season, but 3 power will be. In AiR builds I think we need to get deal as much damage as possible without having to commit too much to the board. Imagine if Mogg Flunkies was still legal this season and used with GHC in an AiR shell. The extra point of damage generated by each takes a whole turn of the clock for the opponent. However if we find we want
creatures that can play Offense and Defense then Frostburn will be the better choice.

I personally don't like the Fanatic but this is purely out of preference. The Fanatic is just too swingy for my taste and can be a defensive liability. I know it sounds weird talking about defense in an aggro deck, but in my experience I am rarely able to play a match without having to switch between being aggressive and defensive and just do better math than my opponent. This is also why I play AiR decks very poorly. So Chandra should always be somewhere in the 75 in most builds with the other 4 drops being more or less up to preference and function of the deck you're building.

Legion loyalist will be a card once the rest of the world how to effectively learns how to use Young Pyromancer and break away from combining it with purphoros. However I truly think the real menace thats lurking in the background is mono green stompy. with under costed hydra's and tuskers, pithing needle and potentially ratchet
bomb may become more relavent in versions that don't splash white.

Again I don't know if the question was directed at me in particular or if it seemed that I was stating that I'm a pro cause I'm not. I just simply notice how the thought process of a red mage is vastly differnent from other mages and our strategy is often simplified and misunderstood.

The winner of SCG Standard Open
1st Place at StarCityGames.com Standard Open on 9/29/2013
Standard

[deck]Mono-Red Aggro
Philip Bertorelli

Creatures (29)

4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Firefist Striker
1 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler

Lands (21)

21 Mountain

Spells (10)

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

Sideboard
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Burning Earth
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Mizzium Mortars

[/deck]

I suggest the following changes to make this deck less of a mess:


[deck]Creatures (28)
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak

Lands (22)
22 Mountain

Spells (10)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

Sideboard (15)
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Burning Earth
2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Here's another list I've been messing around with. Might Test this weekend...

[deck]Creatures (28)
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Rakdos Cackler
2x Legion Loyalist
4x Ash Zealot
4x Rakdos Shred-Freak
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Fanatic of Mogis
2x Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (10)
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
2x Hammer of Purphorous

Land (23)
21x Mountains
2x Mutavault

Sideboard (15)
3 Burning Earth
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Act of Treason
4 Flames of the Firebrand[/deck]

Dat Curve...

Edit: After Zeman pointed it out, I agree that this strategy is flawed because the Hammer and Dragon don't work well together. Maybe disregard.

Transformational Sideboard could be OK too...

[deck]Creatures(24)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Spells (14)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
2 Hammer of Purphoros

Land (22)
1 Mutavault
21 Mountains

Sideboard (15)
4 Burning Earth
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Flames of the Firebrand[/deck]

I like this one a lot. Sorry for the spam. Just drank an energy drink, mind is racing a mile a minute.

I will try this deck on FNM this week, so the plan for the sideboard is to change the deck to Big Red
Any suggestion appreciated

[deck]Creatures(24)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (14)
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge

Land (22)
3 Mutavault
19 Mountains

Sideboard (15)
2 Shock
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Stormbreath Dragon[/deck]

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

Dafuq you say? BTE chains are good and I'm sure as hell not going to play red aggro without Zealot. Even though I eventually dropped the BTE chain from the list in order to play a higher curve, I've tested both in a deck and it worked fine.

Added a lot of content to the primer, fixed links, modernised references.

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

Dafuq you say? BTE chains are good and I'm sure as hell not going to play red aggro without Zealot. Even though I eventually dropped the BTE chain from the list in order to play a higher curve, I've tested both in a deck and it worked fine.

I think most of us are of the consensus that you play one or the other, not both.

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

Dafuq you say? BTE chains are good and I'm sure as hell not going to play red aggro without Zealot. Even though I eventually dropped the BTE chain from the list in order to play
a higher curve, I've tested both in a deck and it worked fine.

I think most of us are of the consensus that you play one or the other, not both.

Here on this site common sense and logic are of abundance. I read sally stuff out of habit and even when i first stumbled onto the site I often found the content lacking with the exception of FoS member posts. hell straight up i went there to reread Z's RDW Primer and the Sledgehammer page just to make sure I was understanding the key concepts.

Based on the deck I ran Friday and what I saw coming out of Woosta (that's how they pronounce it, for those of you who have never been Down East), I'm thinking about trying something like this for FNM:

[deck]Hasty Devoted Fanatic[/deck]

Hard to believe how many people are still trying to jam 3-color decks. I'm putting Burning Earth in the SB until people realize what's going on. Pithing Needle is there for the crazy
amount of PWs and cards with activated abilities I saw last week. Mizzium Mortars of course for the Smiters and Blood Barons.

Question, how do you deal with Obzedat? Esper put me in a hard way, taking out creatures with spot removal and Detention Sphere (getting multiple Cacklers!) and leaving me without the ability to pressure them into leaving Obzedat out as a blocker.

Mortars it? Block with Ash Zealot as you Shock it? Play Skullcrack?

Also, Chandra makes leaving it up as a blocker pointless.

Playing right now with this list:
[deck]
Creature (34)
4x Ash Zealot
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Fanatic of Mogis
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Firefist Striker
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Gore-House Chainwalker
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
4x Rakdos Cackler
2x Rubblebelt Maaka

Instant (4)
2x Dynacharge
2x Weapon Surge

Enchantment (2)
2x Hammer of Purphoros

Land (20)
20x Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2x Mindsparker
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Peak Eruption
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
4x Skullcrack[/deck]

Creatures
12 one-drops
16 two-drops
4+2 4-drops
Any suggestions?
Edit: wrong card in list

Mortars it? Block with Ash Zealot as you Shock it?

I think those options still leave it alive and you down cards.

Mortars it? Block with Ash Zealot as you Shock it? Play Skullcrack?

Mortars is sorcery speed, so if they blink it you can't reach. I guess it would have to be a block with __________ and burn it with _____________ reactive kinda multi-card situation when they attack.

They could never attack and just keep blinking/spot removing you to death...

Good point on the Chandra. Course if they see Chandra out they will just blink.

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

Dafuq you say? BTE chains are good and I'm sure as hell not going to play red aggro without Zealot. Even though I eventually dropped the BTE chain from the list in order to play a
higher curve, I've tested both in a deck and it worked fine.

I think most of us are of the consensus that you play one or the other, not both.

I think y'all probably are, but you want to give me a definitive reason not to play Ash Zealot in a BTE deck? Creatures that are good enough don't have to have synergy with every other card in the deck to warrant making the list.

I mean, I'd play red aggro without BTE easily, but if I was going to play a BTE version of the deck it'd have Ash Zealot too.

its mainly the room in the lists. If you run BTE, you should be running GHC and Firefist as well. Thats 12 2-drops. If you throw ash zealot in there instead, you have to cut down on [burn] / [4-drops] etc.

Thats why its kinda "AIR" style with BTE, GHC, Firefist

Or "RDW" style with Ash Zealot, Young Pyromancer, Firefist (or GHC, or just more burn).

You choose between more solid creatures or more explosive starts with synergy.

Can someone please explain to me why theses fools on Sally are running BTE AND Ash Zealot. the more i read from other sites and from pros who don't normally play red the more i feel red is the most misunderstood color on the color pie.

Dafuq you say?
BTE chains are good and I'm sure as hell not going to play red aggro without Zealot. Even though I eventually dropped the BTE chain from the list in order to play a higher curve, I've tested both in a deck and it worked fine.

I think most of us are of the consensus that you play one or the other, not both.

I think y'all probably are, but you want to give me a definitive reason not to play Ash Zealot in a BTE deck? Creatures that are good enough don't have to have synergy with every other card in the deck to warrant making the list.

I mean, I'd play red aggro without BTE easily, but if I was going to play a BTE version of the deck it'd have Ash Zealot too.

I am in consensus with redthirst. I'm not losing Ash Zealot. You have Ash Zealot and BTE in hand, but not other 1R, you play Ash Zealot, draw for turn and play whatever you get until you HAVE another 1R in hand.

This is what I came up with Friday before FNM (which I ended up being
convinced by the store to switch to sealed for $5, because it was 9 Standard players and 27 sealed players. I would only get to play 3 rounds of Standard and I got a shit ton of cards for $5, including a Purphoros and a Hammer in the Red kit.).

[deck]
Creatures (32)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Gore-Clan Chainwalker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Spells (8)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Lands (20)
20 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Madcap Skills
4 Mindsparker
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Burning Earth
[/deck]

I didn't have Burning Earth going in Friday and was able to trade for a set. After sealed this weekend I was able to trade for a full set of Hammers, among other cards. My roommate was so in love with this deck, he is building it and managed to trade for 5 sets of the Satyr. I'm sure I need to work on the SB, but I like what I have for now.

@Zooligan: 5 four-drops and 1 five-drop on 23 lands? You're a brave one.

@todd: You too, with your 4 drops and 20 lands.

Actually 23 lands is perfect for that curve.

Why not play the extra mutavault? You get another land, another threat, and you hedge against screw a little bit more.

@Zooligan: 5 four-drops and 1 five-drop on 23 lands? You're a brave one.

Flooding and Flame don't mix...