[Primer] Dos Rakis

[photodyer]

Is sorcery-speed Dreadbore that good?
Ultimate Price is conditional, Victim of Night too mana intensive and Death Wind just stupid, but (correct me if I'm wrong) maybe Tragic Slip could find its place in here - especially if Lavinia atcually sees play.

As you've pointed out, splashable black removal is rather limited at present. VoN will hit most of the relevant targets we want that aren't covered by Spear, but the color cost really wants 12 black sources. We got by with fewer in the early development of the deck playing VNH, but color screw can happen.

Tragic Slip is likely too situational for this deck with only 4 cards as sac sources to actively generate morbid; it is best-suited in Aristocrats or a sac-
centerd Zombie build.

We're all sort of holding our breath to see if black gets a decent terror in DGM; if not, TS might indeed have to be considered.

As far as utility, Dreadbore is an excellent spell; there are very few things that Dos Rakis cares about that can't be dealt with at sorcery speed, and it takes out everything and planeswalkers to boot.

[RedNihilist]

There are a few creatures that would/could survive a Dreadbore but would die to a Tragic Slip:
- Ozbedat;
- Predator Ooze;
- Falkenrath Aristocrat;
- Wolfir Avenger...

I'm not saying that Tragic Slip is strictly better than Dreadbore (it isn't), but I felt that a Dos Rakis build boarding Dreadbore as its only black-based removal could have considered Tragic Slip as well - as an integration, rather than a substitution.

[photodyer]

There are a few creatures that would/could survive a Dreadbore but would die to a Tragic Slip:
- Ozbedat;
- Predator Ooze;
- Falkenrath Aristocrat;
- Wolfir Avenger...

I'm not saying that Tragic Slip is strictly better than Dreadbore (it isn't), but I felt that a Dos Rakis build boarding Dreadbore as its only black-based removal could have considered Tragic Slip as well - as an integration, rather than a substitution.

I totally agree with you that we need instant-speed black removal, and also that TS can be an effective answer. I have no doubt that my final list after DGM will have some black instants onboard; I just can't say what at this point.

[zemanjaski]

Tragic Slip is horrible in a deck that can't always turn it on. Half of the cards listed are bad or in bad decks anyway.

[RedNihilist]

Tragic Slip is horrible in a deck that can't always turn it on. Half of the cards listed are bad or in bad decks anyway.

I've never said you can't actually survive without playing around a Wolfir Avenger or just outpace a Predator Ooze, I just came up with the first examples of non-dreadborable creatures that crossed my mind for different reasons.

Also, I just wanted to understand how some choices are made, not to point out some kind of "error"

[windstrider]

Tragic Slip is horrible in a deck that can't always turn it on. Half of the cards listed are bad or in bad decks anyway.

I've never said you can't actually survive without playing around a Wolfir Avenger or just outpace a Predator Ooze, I just came up with the first examples of non-dreadborable creatures that crossed my mind for different reasons.

Also, I just wanted to understand how some choices are made, not to point out some kind of "error"

Cards like [card:
1ln5yo8f]Tragic Slip[/card] are meta calls for Dos Rakis. If you're suddenly seeing a lot of indestructible creatures, then by all means try it out. It is a situational card depending on what you're facing. If more people were playing Falkenrath Aristocrat, for example, Tragic Slip would be a decent sideboard card.

[zemanjaski]

Tragic Slip is horrible in a deck that can't always turn it on. Half of the cards listed are bad or in bad decks anyway.

I've never said you can't actually survive without playing around a Wolfir Avenger or just outpace a Predator Ooze, I just came up with the first examples of non-dreadborable creatures that crossed my mind for different reasons.

Also, I just wanted to understand how some choices are made, not to point out some kind of "error"

You're missing
my point. If your example of non-dreadboreable creatures is that limited, and tragic slip doesn't even universally answer them, then you should know which removal spell is preferrable

[RedNihilist]

Well, I'm sorry that my english isn't good enough to allow me to be able to properly broadcast my thoughts (I often end up deleting and rewriting a whole post 2 or 3 times), but I actually felt like I had to answer to the second half of your post and ended up forgetting to acknowledge the most important one.

Anyway, I actually started the whole exchange by asking if there was an instant black removal that could take the place of Dreadbore, and Tragic Sleep seemed like the only candidate - now, you guys made me realize that it COULD be a good replacement in a deck that could actually trigger the Morbid clause at will, but Dos Rakis lacks such a thing.

Was THAT the point?

[zemanjaski]

I guess. The point is always going to be "do you actually need that effect" and I would say right now, no, it is not necessary. These are proactive decks, so having a sideboard dedicated to becoming too reactive is not going to win games.

[RedNihilist]

Got it.
Pretty much the same thing you mentioned about Tormod's Crypt against Reanimator.

[redthirst]

I guess. The point is always going to be "do you actually need that effect" and I would say right now, no, it is not necessary. These are proactive decks, so having a sideboard dedicated to becoming too reactive is not going to win games.

My aggro SB plan is almost completely reactive and it's pretty effective.

So there are exceptions to that rule.

[zemanjaski]

Exceptions sure; but is generally incorrect.

[redthirst]

Just making sure because your blanket statement of "SBing reactive cards into a proactive deck is not going to win games" is not true if - sometimes - that's exactly what you need to do to win.

For example, my ability to race super Aggro decks is questionable at best, so I'm much better off siding out proactive threats for reactive answers and playing a Control role.

I just wanted to clarify that going reactive is sometimes exactly what you want... though I do agree with your analysis of Tragic Slip - that it's not where this deck wants to be.

[LP, of the Fires]

Just posting to say maindeck Mizzium Mortars is the nut. Was SUPER clutch tonight at the LGS. Going forward I think Spike Jester is the only thing I'd be looking to add so far if anything. Maybe Sire of Insanity and a Cavern out of the board against control.

[RDW]

I think Spike Jester's going to be a stretch in non-Godless Shrine builds. He ruins Caverns of Souls and requires black in the first 8-9 cards which is pretty demanding on the manabase. I do like him, however. I may run him in my Dega Burn deck I've been working on, but in Dos Rakis he competes with Ash Zealot and Boros Reckoner, both of which are superior IMO. Dos Rakis is an aggressive deck that can easily transition into a controlling role versus hyper-aggressive decks, so we need that kind of flexibility in our creature base. Ash Zealot and Boros Reckoner are solid creatures both offensively and defensively, so I don't think Spike Jester is worth losing the reliability of these creatures...

[windstrider]

Just posting to say maindeck Mizzium Mortars is the nut. Was SUPER clutch tonight at the LGS. Going forward I think Spike Jester is the only thing I'd be looking to add so far if anything. Maybe Sire of Insanity and a Cavern out of the board against control.

LP, are you using any Pillar of Flame in your deck at all? I'm running redthirst's list and was thinking that switching Pillars to the side with Mortars in the main is the right call with the higher toughness creatures making appearances. I also believe that a lot more people will be running Mortars, making our haste creatures that much better again.

I think Spike Jester's going to be a stretch in non-Godless Shrine builds. He ruins Caverns of Souls and requires black in the first 8-9 cards which is pretty demanding on the manabase. I do like him, however. I may run him in my Dega Burn deck I've been working on, but in Dos Rakis he competes with Ash Zealot and Boros Reckoner, both of which are superior IMO. Dos Rakis is an aggressive deck that can easily transition into a controlling role versus hyper-aggressive decks, so we need that kind of flexibility in our creature base. Ash Zealot and Boros Reckoner are solid creatures both offensively and defensively, so I don't think Spike Jester is worth losing the reliability of these creatures...

Knight of Infamy is really no worse on the manabase than Jester, and he was a staple in the deck for a long time. Ten black sources should be enough to see black early so that Jester is going to be a very good addition to the list,
especially against slower control builds.

Zealot stays in the list no matter what. She's too good of a creature not to run. If anything, I'd replace the Lightning Maulers with the Spike Jester for a higher damage output early. Jester also trades favorably with more creatures than Mauler. True, you lose the interaction with Reckoner, but Reckoner is a good enough creature to stand on his own.

[redthirst]

If I was going to replace anything in the list with Jester, the Maulers would come out no question.

Also, I don't hate the Pillar -> Mortar substitution.

[RDW]

Knight of Infamy is really no worse on the manabase than Jester, and he was a staple in the deck for a long time. Ten black sources should be enough to see black early so that Jester is going to be a very good addition to the list, especially against slower control builds.

Zealot stays in the list no matter what. She's too good of a creature not to run. If anything, I'd replace the Lightning Maulers with the Spike Jester for a higher damage output early. Jester also trades favorably with more creatures than Mauler. True, you lose the interaction with Reckoner, but Reckoner is a good enough creature to stand on his own.

In Godless Shrine builds, they're equivalently demanding; in Cavern of Souls builds, however,
Spike Jester is substantially more demanding on the manabase because casting him off of Cavern of Souls is generally very weak.

I don't get to test a lot, so most of my conjectures are number-dependent. Is 10 sources the consensus for four 2-drops requiring black and four Falkenrath Aristocrats? If so, then I guess the jester can fit in somewhere, but here are some numbers that I've used to sway an auto-inclusion.

To have black by turn four with high (90%) probability, we need 12 sources on the play and 10 sources on the draw.
To have black by turn two with high (90%) probability, we need 15 sources on the play and 13 sources on the draw.

It seems, numerically, that 10 sources is a bare minimum for including any kind of black spells, and to reliably have it on turn two, we might want more... What's your guys' empirical determination on the range of numbers of black sources that's acceptable for this suite of black spells/creatures?

[zemanjaski]

You want a minimum of 12 black sources for a turn 2 play; not 10.

[RDW]

You want a minimum of 12 black sources for a turn 2 play; not 10.

I agree with this over the proposed 10 sources, definitely. I also feel like this deck needs 20 sources of red for Ash Zealots. :X

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm actually playing 4 pillar, 4 spear, 2 mortar. Pillar is a reasonable cut, I just have 4 main because my store is WAY to agro(though that may be changing soon).

I was also running with I believe 10 or 11 black sources in my dos rakis build. 4 crypt/summit 2 godless shrine and a guildgate. The 3rd shrine is probably equally as good(or bad) as the first gate, but foil guildgate is gorgeous and I couldn't hemorraghe value like that.

[windstrider]

So, here's an updated list with Spike Jesters in place of Maulers. I moved the Mortars mainboard. It has 20 red sources, 12 black sources, and 4 white, so everything can cast Reckoner. It aims to follow redthirst's sideboarding plan.

Any suggestions?

[Deck]Lands: 24
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
12 Mountain

Creatures: 28
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Searing Spear

Sideboard
1 Devil's Play
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Dreadbore
2 Frostburn Weird
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Olivia Voldaren
[/Deck]

[LP, of the Fires]

I'd probably do something sinful like cut stonewrights and 2 mortars so that I could play 4 maindeck pillars. Post rotation is generally followed by a wave of agro decks and pillar is just amazing there. If you're into cute things and have a good read on your meta, legion loyalist. How sweet would it be to attack into your opponents resto mana, have them flash in Advent of the Wurm, then mention that loyalist makes tokens unable to block? Too deep? MAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE.

[windstrider]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=58928#p58928:2ri2xx2x]LP, of the Fires » Thu May 02, 2013 1:55 pm[/url:2ri2xx2x]":2ri2xx2x]I'd probably do something sinful like cut stonewrights and 2 mortars so that I could play 4 maindeck pillars. Post rotation is generally followed by a wave of agro decks and pillar is just amazing there. If you're into cute things and have a good read on your meta, legion loyalist. How sweet would it be to attack into your opponents resto mana, have them flash in Advent of the Wurm, then mention that loyalist makes tokens unable to block? Too deep? MAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE.[/quote:2ri2xx2x]

Yeah, while I was talking with the shop guy today, he mentioned a lot of aggro and control. The option to go with more removal is in the sideboard, so I might go with -2 Mortars, +2 Pillars main with 2 more mortars in the side.

[redthirst]

-1 Reckoner, +1 Thundermaw

You've got the land for it anyway and Thundermaw is such a beating against so much.

I think I'll give that list a shot myself...

[windstrider]

-1 Reckoner, +1 Thundermaw

You've got the land for it anyway and Thundermaw is such a beating against so much.

I think I'll give that list a shot myself...

Yeah, that would be a good top end for the deck. I'll need to sub in a Zealous Conscripts until I can get another Thundermaw. Are you keeping the 4th Reckoner in the side?

[redthirst]

Yeah, here's my current list with SB:

[deck]Creatures: 28
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Lightning Mauler
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 24
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain

Sideboard: 15
4 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rakdos's Return
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Boros Reckoner[/deck]

To integrate Spike Jester, I'll go: -4 Lightning Mauler, -4 Cavern, -2 Guildgate; +4 Spike Jester, +4 Godless Shrine, +2 Mountain.

I really like the mana #s: 12 sources, 20 sources - and if that's not quite enough, I can always go with 2
Guildgates again.

[windstrider]

I'd probably do something sinful like cut stonewrights and 2 mortars so that I could play 4 maindeck pillars. Post rotation is generally followed by a wave of agro decks and pillar is just amazing there. If you're into cute things and have a good read on your meta, legion loyalist. How sweet would it be to attack into your opponents resto mana, have them flash in Advent of the Wurm, then mention that loyalist makes tokens unable to block? Too deep? MAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE.

You so crazy.

I had thought about cutting the Stonewrights for more removal, which is similar to how my deck was constructed before. If he doesn't work, I'll side him out and do just that. For now, he's such an unassuming little fellow that most people overlook him.

I
like that idea of Legion Loyalist. Loyalist + Spike Jesters would be a lot of first strike goodness. As for tokens, I have no idea how prevalent they are.

-1 Reckoner, +1 Thundermaw

You've got the land for it anyway and Thundermaw is such a beating against so much.

I think I'll give that list a shot myself...

Yeah, that would be a good top end for the deck. I'll need to sub in a Zealous Conscripts until I can get another Thundermaw. Are you keeping the 4th Reckoner in the side?

[windstrider]

Yeah, here's my current list with SB:

[deck]Creatures: 28
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Lightning Mauler
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 24
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain

Sideboard: 15
4 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rakdos's Return
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Boros Reckoner[/deck]

To integrate Spike Jester, I'll go: -4 Lightning Mauler, -4 Cavern, -2 Guildgate; +4 Spike Jester, +4 Godless Shrine, +2 Mountain.

I really like the mana #s: 12 sources, 20 sources - and if that's not quite enough, I can always go with 2 Guildgates again.

I like it. The manabase seems really stable with this build.

Are you staying with the 4 Pillars for now? I'm tempted to move the Mortars into their place, but I haven't quite committed to that plan.

[redthirst]

Meh, I'm borderline. The Pillars are still very relevant in quite a few common MUs and they go to the dome so I'm sticking with them for now. Plus I imagine the new Voice of Resurgence will see a good bit of play initially and I like having an answer for it that doesn't give the opponent value.

[RDW]

Yeah, here's my current list with SB:

[deck]Creatures: 28
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Lightning Mauler
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 24
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain

Sideboard: 15
4 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rakdos's Return
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Boros Reckoner[/deck]

To integrate Spike Jester, I'll go: -4 Lightning Mauler, -4 Cavern, -2 Guildgate; +4 Spike Jester, +4 Godless Shrine, +2 Mountain.

I really like the mana #s: 12 sources, 20 sources - and if that's not quite enough, I can always go with 2 Guildgates again.

I like this list a lot; the mana seems almost perfect and the curve seems very nice. Have you ever considered going up to 25 lands (probably a utility land) and all four Thundermaw Hellkites? Seems like exactly where this list would like to be.

[redthirst]

That requires finding two more slots that I really don't have, though.

Besides, I feel like 4 Aristocrats and 3 Dragons are enough to get me there against pretty much anything.

[RDW]

Understandable, I wouldn't know where to put it either; just a thought. I really like the four Pillars of Flame mainboard--it gives you game against hyperaggressive strategies which are likely the bane of your deck's existence, haha.

[redthirst]

Yeah, I don't like the Hyper Aggro stuff, which is why I SB 12 cards for those MUs.

[RDW]

Haha, all of the removal in for the one-drops and Spike Jesters?

[redthirst]

-10 1 drops, -2 Jesters; +4 Dreadbore, +3 Mortars, +2 Olivia, +2 Frostburn, +1 Reckoner.

[redthirst]

The SB plan for this deck is ridiculous. I played against UWR Control, RUG Flash, and Naya Blitz tonight in some P/U games and I never felt like I wasn't massively favored post SB.

[RDW]

I'll be piloting your deck next week, Redthirst; it's beautiful, haha. Has anyone tried Dega?

[windstrider]

Played last night with the updated list. I went 3-1-1. Cackler into Spike Jester is an early beating that a lot of decks do not want to see. My favorite plays were pairing a Stonewright with Thundermaw to swing for lethal; I had a Thundermaw on the field, cast Conscripts, stole the other guy's 4/4 Olivia, and swung for lethal when I was holding my other Thundermaw; I sacked an Aristocrat to itself to dodge a [card]Warleader's Helix[/card] to prevent him from gaining 4 life when I had another Aristocrat in hand, and then I drew a third to hammer him to death.

I steamrolled a G/W Midrange list the first round. Not even close. I think I lost 5 life combined. Cackler into Spike Jester into Reckoner into Aristocrat backed up by removal just outright killed him the first game. Second game I got the Thundermaw/Stonewright pairing against him.

The only time I felt really pressured was against a U/W
Hexproof Auras deck as I had no way to kill a Geist of St. Traft. I died horribly the first game from a flying Geist swinging in for 11, raced to kill him in the second game by blocking his Geist with a Reckoner and hammering him to death with Aristocrats, and then we drew the third game. This deck could be a problem since he was rolling past almost everyone else.

I lost to a G/R/B list sporting Olivia, Huntmasters, Thragtusks, and Liliana of the Veil. I misplayed by not sacking a Spike Jester to an Aristocrat to dodge Olivia's ping, and then he pinged the Aristocrat. That probably cost me the match and the round. I was able to overcome a Thragtusk followed by Huntmaster by just smacking him with damage. Third round I completely land-flooded by drawing 4 lands in a row. A single Thundermaw would have turned that game around.

I had a slow start on the draw against a Boros list splashing black. A turn two Noble was followed by a turn three Jester followed by an Ash Zealot. I beat on him for a while
before he cast Merciless Eviction to wipe the field. And then I beat on him with a Thundermaw. The second game had multiple Aristocrats to kill him.

I really don't remember the other game. I was feeling somewhat sick, but I stayed to finish out the night. I ended up in fifth place. Pulled a Hallowed Fountain and a Savageborn Hydra from my two packs. From my trade stuff, I got two more Thundermaws, a playset of High Priest of Penance, a playset of Boros Charms, a playset of Carnage Gladiators, and another Rakdos's Return.

All-in-all, it was a decent night. I never felt overmatched or outclassed by anything. Spike Jester, despite the horrible artwork, is a very good addition to the list.

[windstrider]

I'll be piloting your deck next week, Redthirst; it's beautiful, haha. Has anyone tried Dega?

Photodyer experimented with a Dega splash for a while. It plays out a little differently from Dos Rakis.