UBx Tempo

[Link]

I think far and away looks really nice for tempo and taking out problem creatures. Turn and burn is expensive but also deals with a lot of stuff and their effects on death.

We'll just have to see after they come out but they are looking really good compared ot the other fuse cards

[zemanjaski]

[quote=Fate]When do you bring in Desolate Lighthouse? Against any deck that you go into topdeck mode with I think , but which match-ups do you find that happens and which happens is it irrelevant?[/quote]
There is no such gameplan as 'going into topdeck mode'. It is for when I am playing a control role so that I hit my land drops a little more consistently and can mitigate flood a little ~ this land does both which is super relevant for this archetype. This will be most relevant against aggro decks where I am boarding out Delver of Secrets for more removal ~ all I want to do is get ahead with infinite 2-for-1s from Snapcaster, Augur, Staticaster and Ravings then stick a threat and win. All their removal is horrible against that configuration and the last creature standing kills them with a pike.

-4 Delver of Secrets, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +1 Desolate Lighthouse, +2 Pillar of Flame, extend hand.

[quote=rcwraspy]Z, what
are your thoughts on Guttersnipe in a UR tempo shell?[/quote]
Pretty garbage in a deck like mine, but I think if you built an aggro-combo shell you might be able to make it work (eg: Augur + Electromancer as enablers etc). It would probably be a little like SplinterTwin was; more of a midrange-combo shell; you drop the 'snipe with protection, then untap and go-off. For obvious reasons it isn't as good as splintertwin, and the body isn't good enough for a more aggro shell, which is why the card currently doesn't see much use. Would be fun to experiment with though. Guttersnipe REALLY needed the phyrexian spells to get there of course.

[quote=Fate]Also he doesn't put olivias and nighthawks at the bottom of your library[/quote]
I don't know why you would want Frostburn Weird when you have access to Augur ~ Augur is usually a 2-for-1 afterall, and there isnt much of a relevant difference between a 1/3 and a 1/4 at the moment. They're both pretty much the same with a pike; late game Frostburn Weird is
a little more powerful as a beater, but Augur filters your draws late which is super relevent to prevent flooding. Also, 'putting cards on the bottom' is not an argument against the card ~ it is the same as just never drawing them so should make no difference to your evaluation of the card. Don't be results oriented. Also, Nighthawk and Olivia are garbage in tempo shells...

@ LP ~ noted and thank you.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, Turn / Burn looks pretty interesting.

[Link]

Nuwen's deck is much less about tempo, but there are still tempo plays with undying evil.

The difference between 3 and 4 toughness is being able to block flinthoof boars, dreg manglers, etc. and live. Can kill ash zealots flat out. Weird goes on the offense much better as well, so has been better vs. control. Also survives a magmaquake for 3. Weird is super relevant in the meta. You're right I should've evaluated Augur differently, instead of "putting them on theb ottom" I should've said "he misses a lot and doesn't get you any CA when we were running that many creatures." Weird is always going to come down and be a wall that only dies to mortars or a spear after pump. If you undying evil him he becomes a monster with 5 toughness that can swing for 6/1 against an empty board. He's done a lot of work for us today.

Also her version doesn't even have Runechanter's pike. Its really completely
different from your shell but with some of the same tools-which is why I asked about desolate lighthouse.

I don't think I can reiterate this point enough zeman: our deck does not feature pikes, snapcaster mages, or unsummons. It is NOT UBx Tempo, it is UBx control list.

[zemanjaski]

So discuss it elsewhere then? The discussion in here isn't going to be relevant to your deck.

There are other problems I have with both the decklists posted and the strategic insight offered, but I think our consideration of the game and the themes of these sort of decks are wildly different.

[Link]

Sorry for the confusion and wasted posts.

I hope you'll post your advice in the other thread then

[zemanjaski]

[deck]
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Izzet Staticaster
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Runechanter's Pike

3 Brimstone Volley
4 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
2 Izzet Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Thought Scour

3 Cavern of Souls
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
7 Island
3 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Dispel
1 Dissipate
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Tormod's Crypt[/deck]

Then plus 3 planeswalkers in the board for control, but I'm not sure which ones in what mix. It may be that you just want
JaoT as a draw engine; Ral is nice as extra burn but otherwise doesn't do much for you. Tamiyo or JMA are worth considering.

Interesting that you posted this as I've also been thinking of a counterburn variant. I agree with the following analysis that control matchups are concerning. Most of the decks in my meta are control and reanimator so this deck isn't viable for me right now.

Also, anyone running Desperate Ravings gets style points in my book. I've always enjoyed casting that card despite the people in my local meta that refuse to admit that it is good.

There was an MTGO user playing a true-counterburn deck last season, but we had a pyroclasm variant then (which is pretty important). It might just be possible to play UR Control though? The problem is that, if you're not taking a more aggressive stance like we are here, why not just play white for Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Revelation? It is a shame that the best control cards are mandatory UW.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Izzet Staticaster
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Runechanter's Pike

3 Brimstone Volley
4 Desperate Ravings
2 Dissipate
2 Izzet Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Thought Scour

3 Cavern of Souls
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
7 Island
3 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Dispel
1 Dissipate
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
2 Pillar of Flame
n1 Psychic Spiral
2 Tormod's Crypt[/deck]

Then plus 3 planeswalkers in the board for control, but I'm not sure which ones in what mix. It may be that you just want JaoT as a draw engine; Ral is nice as extra burn but otherwise doesn't do much for you. Tamiyo or JMA are worth considering.

Interesting that you posted this as I've also been thinking of a counterburn variant. I agree with the following analysis that control matchups are concerning. Most of the decks in my meta are control and reanimator so this deck isn't viable for me right now.

Also, anyone running Desperate Ravings gets style points in my book. I've always enjoyed casting that card despite the people in my local meta that refuse to admit that it is good.

There was an MTGO user playing a true-counterburn deck last season, but we had a pyroclasm variant then (which is pretty important). It might just be possible to play UR Control though? The problem is that, if you're not taking a more
aggressive stance like we are here, why not just play white for Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Revelation? It is a shame that the best control cards are mandatory UW.

That was my conclusion as well, so I started thinking about a more midrange Esper build with Sorin, Lingering Souls, etc. Then I realized if I were going that route and splashing white I might as well run Sphinx's Revalation, and I really hate that card so I tossed that idea out the window.

[Calamity]

How does this deck do against aggro? Between 25 and 33 percent of my LGS is aggro, ie gruul or naya blitz. The rest is midrange and reanimator.

[Valdarith]

All of my matches vs aggro have been crushing victories in my favor. Between Dimir Charm, Tragic Slip, Tribute to Hunger, Dissipate, Ultimate Price, Augur of Bolas, and Unsummon, we have more than enough answers for their things.

[Calamity]

Some cards from DGM i think could have a place here, or at least some sort of tempo deck:

hidden strings: Tap down lands or untap your own to leave open mana on their turn? Seems like it could be worth testing

far and away: An overcosted unsummon and crappier tribute to hunger on the same card. Fusing them could be a huge tempo swing but it costs 5 so i dunno if the versatility is worth the sacrifice of mana efficiency.

notion thief: So you can tell sphinx's revelation decks to eat a dick

warped physique: Replacement for ultimate price, perhaps? Depends on the number of cards in your hand, but if your hand is empty aren't you screwed anyway?

woodlot crawler: Has narrow evasion and could be unblockable. Probably won't ever be better than invisible stalker though, except that he blocks better vs. green decks.

turn and burn: In a UR or grixis deck this could be real solid. Fuse to kill almost anything, have
a shitty searing spear, make one of their creatures tragic slip bait, prevent their value creatures form doing stuff... seems like it has a lot of potential.

[zemanjaski]

Definitely. Turn/Burn is pretty great IMO ~ a 5 mana murder in colours that do not normally get hard removal is a nice option to have ~ you won't normally need it anyway, but having the option is fantastic (ie: you couldn't otherwise kill an Angel of Serenity with its triggers in the stack in those colours).

Notion Thief and Warped Physique are interesting cards, for sure.

[Calamity]

Been playing the second UB list Valadrith posted on page one against a June zombies deck and have been losing horribly. Its really hard to gain tempo with their geralfs messengers and main board death rite shamans. Blood artist makes killing their stuff hurt you too. Thought scour on them can be bad since you can give them grave crawlers.

Maybe I'm bad but this seems like a bad matchup.

[zemanjaski]

Why are you thought scouring them?

[Calamity]

I wasn't thinking. I thought I could mill their threats away but now realize its a bad idea. I'm really new to this archetype so I'm still working out the kinks in piloting it

[zemanjaski]

Yeah...that's really, really wrong.

[Calamity]

Regardless of that...error in play he matchup was still quite hard

[zemanjaski]

Apart from Geralf's Messenger I am not seeing any cards that cause you real problems ~ so I don't know what is going wrong strategically. If you're not very familiar with the archetype though, it is likely that you're making a lot of judgement errors ~ these are very unforgiving decks unfortunately. I mean, you have Augur AND Snapcaster, both of which are big problem cards for their deck ~ and the mana in Jund Zombies is god awful.

[Calamity]

I'm probably just playing terrible then. I'll need to find a tempo crash course and practice a ton. I'm dedicated to learning this archetype to broaden my horizons and become a better player.

Plus winning with this deck is immensely satisfying

[photodyer]

I'm probably just playing terrible then. I'll need to find a tempo crash course and practice a ton. I'm dedicated to learning this archetype to broaden my horizons and become a better player.

Plus winning with this deck is immensely satisfying

I feel your pain...I built UWR Flash to start "learning about the enemy" and for playtesting against aggro. I quickly found myself on a steep learning curve and always felt "exposed" after playing aggro archetypes for so long. I'm not at all suggesting that aggro play lacks strategic depth, but tempo strategies definitely feel less forgiving of misplays.

[TubeHunter]

I was building something like ths at the beginning of gatecrash, but dropped it soon after. If I find my old list, I'll post it here. I played Z with it in the MTGS standard tournament, but that really wasn't indicative of the deck, given that I didn't test enough with it and consequintly played rather poorly with it.

[redthirst]

I quickly found myself on a steep learning curve and always felt "exposed" after playing aggro archetypes for so long.

That's one thing about being the beatdown - you're always winning right up until the moment you lose.

When you're the Control player, it's the opposite - you're always losing right up until the moment you win.

It's definitely a transition and takes a good bit of getting used to.

[Valdarith]

I wasn't thinking. I thought I could mill their threats away but now realize its a bad idea. I'm really new to this archetype so I'm still working out the kinks in piloting it

You want to Though Scour yourself to build your graveyard with targets for Snapcaster Mage as well as pump for Runechanter's Pike. Milling them is only hurting yourself.

The deck does take a lot of experience to play properly. It's a lot different than an aggro deck because it has many more branches on the decision tree. I am far from being able to play the deck optimally but I'm getting there after only an FNM and a few matches on the side.

[rcwraspy]

An additional perspective on thought scouring the opponent when yours isn't a mill strategy and nobody set up the top draw.

I've been toying with a mostly black control featuring wolf run list that runs Gloom Surgeon. The number of cards getting exiled by him can get fairly ridiculous, but when I'm doing that I almost always win because I'm holding off until the last moment when I go off and steal the win.

From those experiences, the way I think of milled cards is to just pretend that they were all on the bottom of my library and I wouldn't have drawn into them anyway.

That deck doesn't include blue. With Thought Scour in a build with Snappy and flashback spells it's different of course, but even if you're milling cards you can't get value from don't worry about it.

The only time it really stinks is when you see your 1x in there. Usually Staff of Nin in
my MBC list. But again, just pretend it's the last card in your library and you wouldn't have seen it.

[Valdarith]

Here's an Esper tempo list I've been working on.

[deck]Creatures (11)
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel

Spells (27)
2 Unsummon
1 Saving Grasp
2 Cremate
2 Tragic Slip
4 Azorius Charm
1 Warped Physique
2 Devour Flesh
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Far / Away
2 Dissipate
4 Lingering Souls
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Land (22)
4 Watery Grave
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Isolated Chapel
5 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Dispel
1 Cremate
2 Erase
2 Essence Scatter
1 Dissipate
3 Sin Collector
1 Restoration Angel
2 Evil Twin
1 Moorland Haunt[/deck]

I particularly like the sideboard possibilities with Restoration Angel, Evil Twin, and Sin Collector. Flashing those two guys with the angel seems nasty. Sin Collector is huge against Sphinx's Revelation.dec and being able to flash Twin back on opponent's EOT to copy a
fatty and kill it on your next turn is sick. One-of Sorin is in the main because he's good against every deck and I couldn't bring myself to leave him out.

[Calamity]

[deck]Creatures: 15
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Invisible Stalker

Spells: 25
2 Cremate
4 Thought Scour
2 Tragic Slip
2 Unsummon
1 Devour Flesh
1 Warped Physique
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Runechanter's Pike
2 Far/Away
1 Dissipate
2 Forbidden Alchemy

Lands: 20
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Swamp
9 Island

Sideboard: 15
2 Cremate
2 Dispel
1 Dimir Charm
1 Dissipate
3 Duress
2 Evil Twin
2 Essence Scatter
2 Undying Evil[/deck]

Really similar one of Valdarith's UB lists. Far/Away is a monster, especially against bant enchant. Warped Physique is in testing in the place of ultimate price.

I think a red splash could be good here, for pillar (against voice, that card rapes us), turn/burn, izzet staticaster, and izzet charm.

or i might just play fabiano's grixis deck.

[Valdarith]

Some minor tweaks for my reference. Felt like adding a third Forbidden Alchemy to dig for Pikes or relevant spells for the board state. Also went to the full four Resto Angels in the main.

[deck]Creatures (12)
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Restoration Angel

Spells (26)
2 Unsummon
1 Saving Grasp
2 Cremate
2 Tragic Slip
3 Azorius Charm
1 Essence Scatter
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Far / Away
2 Dissipate
4 Lingering Souls
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Land (22)
4 Watery Grave
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Isolated Chapel
5 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Dispel
2 Cremate
2 Erase
1 Essence Scatter
2 Negate
3 Sin Collector
2 Evil Twin
1 Moorland Haunt[/deck]

[Valdarith]

I haven't visited this thread in awhile, but the Doom Blade reprint is awesome news for this deck. It's a huge upgrade to Ultimate Price.

I may be able to make it to FNM this Friday, and I'm considering taking either this deck or BG control (my friend just built it and wants me to run it for him).

My list:

[deck]Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Invisible Stalker

Spells (26)
4 Thought Scour
2 Cremate
2 Unsummon
3 Dimir Charm
3 Far / Away
1 Negate
1 Ultimate Price
3 Runechanter's Pike
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Dissipate
2 Tribute to Hunger

Lands (20)
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dimir Guildgate
2 Swamp
9 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Dispel
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
1 Cremate
1 Dimir Charm
1 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Bane Alley Broker
2 Evil Twin
[/deck]

[Valdarith]

Updating for M14:

[deck]Creatures (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Invisible Stalker

Spells (25)
4 Thought Scour
2 Cremate
2 Unsummon
3 Dimir Charm
3 Far / Away
1 Negate
2 Doom Blade
3 Runechanter's Pike
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Dissipate

Lands (20)
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dimir Guildgate
2 Swamp
9 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Dispel
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
1 Cremate
1 Dimir Charm
1 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Bane Alley Broker
2 Evil Twin
[/deck]

[Valdarith]

Upon further reflection I think Bane Alley Broker and Evil Twin could be wrong for sideboard tech. I'd want Broker against control but I feel like I'd get more mileage out of Think Twice from the side instead. Evil Twin comes in vs midrange but at 20 land he can be pretty clunky. Maybe a third Appetite for Brains and a singleton Jace, Architect of Thought for control?

[RDW]

No Notion Thief?

[Valdarith]

No Notion Thief?

That's probably the card I was looking for. One-of hatebear.

[Valdarith]

I acquired some of the cards on MTGO to mirror my paper deck. Ran some test games last night and came to the conclusion that I'm uneasy about there basically being only one wincon in the deck (Pike). Variance can REALLY screw with this deck sometimes. I wonder if I can somehow include more tempo creatures here, but I don't know of any to put in. Knight of Infamy? Seems bad. Running white gives Geist but muddies the mana base. I'd rather stay UB.

I wish we had Ponder.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Augur of Bolas
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Invisible Stalker

Spells (26)
4 Thought Scour
2 Cremate
2 Unsummon
3 Dimir Charm
4 Far / Away
1 Negate
2 Doom Blade
3 Runechanter's Pike
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Dissipate

Lands (20)
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dimir Guildgate
2 Swamp
9 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Dispel
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
2 Cremate
1 Dimir Charm
1 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Think Twice
1 Notion Thief
[/deck]

I feel like Far / Away is too good not to have a full playset of. It's just been so good in testing. Unfortunately I'm testing in MTGO right now so my Doom Blades are 1x Ultimate Price and 1x Tribute to Hunger.

I could be blowing the whole Pike thing out of proportion. More testing needed.

Also, Cremate could fall out of favor depending on how much Scavenging Ooze we see post-M14.

[zemanjaski]

No Ponder or Preordain make for sad times Id want the 4th Snappy somehow, they're so good.