[Primer] Boros Burn

[BiddingMaster]

In a daily event today and in my last round i almost beat frank karsten with 39 seconds left on his clock and 2:23 on mine. That was both a brag and a testament to my opponents plays. My thoughts on the blue black heroic deck after playing it two times are this. first and foremost, Never let pain seer live. It doesnt matter how much burn you have they can still clock you in short order. they also take very little damage off of them because they only have agent of fates at the three drop slot and thats as high as it goes. It stops at 4 post sideboard with demon. Yp goes a long way in this matchup so always play him with open mana. They do play some number of removal spells but not many. Also nivmagus elemental can get ugly really quick. like tarmogoyf ugly. My sideboard looks like this
-4 boros charm
-4 skullcrack
+2 assemble
+1 muta
+3 mortars
+1 chained
+1 chandra

[cloudscraper]

Went undeafeated (5-0-1 total) in a local event today with the following list

[deck]Deck
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Blood Crypt
2 Boros Guildgate
5 Mountain
4 Mutavault
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Glare of Heresy
4 Satyr Firedancer
[/deck]

The deck played very differently than the Pyromancer list, but I liked it even more because it is less schyzofrenic (you never have the doubt on whether to kill their blocker hoping your creature does more than the 3 / 4 dmg your burn spell would have done) and much more focused.

I've found Toil/Trouble to be surprisingly
good while I was the play against monsters. I've burned his mana dork and my T/T did 6: not bad for a card that's probably suboptimal in the matchup.
Glare of heresy has been awesome once again, freeing a Chandra and then two (!) phoenixes from D-Spheres.
Toil/Trouble is obviously the real deal against control, especially because people don't automatically assume we have it in the maindeck even if they see the black mana.

I've noticed that with this list, being on the play skyrockets the chance to win. T/T is awesome on the play and can be so-so even against black white when on the draw (I've played twice against the BBDish list with Brimaz, if they go like seize or duress into brimaz and they are on the play T/T is not at his best... if they also cast a rat in the meanwhile it is super mediocre and a bad topdeck)

Sideboarding was very smooth, let me know what you think about my approach, i've only played against 3 archetypes.

Esper Control:
- 3 Blood, - 2 Chained, - 2 Shock, + 4
Firedrinker Satyr, + 1 Glare, + 2 Chandra switched the 3rd shock for a chained when i saw Fiendslayer Pala

BW midrange:
- 3 Shock, - 2 Jet, - 1 Helix (I was afraid of having a very high curve) , +2 Assemble, + 2 Helix, +2 Chandra

Monsters:
- 4 Toil / Trouble - 2 Magma Jet + 2 Chained + 4 Firedancer

[magicdownunder]

Last Time

---

I 3-1 the daily event running:

[deck=MDU's Blind Zurm]Lands 23
6 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malice

Creatures 8
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Others 5
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Blind Obedience
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 24
3 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Shock

Sideboard 15
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Toil/Trouble
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Wear/Tear
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Skullcrack
2 Blind Obedience
3 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

I tried to gear the list to beat the top5 decks - Bx Devotion, Esper Control, Burn, Jund Monsters and Ux Devotion,
hence the 3x BO, 3x Assemble, 3x T//T and 3x MM.

I personally thinks it runs well, the only issue is that I'm having great trouble in dealing with control list what are geared to beat us (the version with 3-4 FSP) - I do have glare but I feel that its not enough.... heck even the Boros charm trick is countered by counters or Azorius Charm.

3-1 another DE, my only loss was due to my own stupidity in the mirror.

I added an extra Glare of Hersey (over W/T) to deal with Esper (which I fought in my finals) except he was on the BBV and Spector plan so they were kinda useless, I might run the 4th T//T since they're obv. stellar vs control.

I 3-0'ed an SE running:

[deck=MDU's Blind Zurm]Lands 23
6 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malice

Creatures 8
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Others 5
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Blind Obedience
3 Chained to
the Rocks

Burns 24
3 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Shock

Sideboard 15
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Toil/Trouble
1 Mutavault
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Skullcrack
2 Blind Obedience
3 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

I decided I'm no longer going to care about Hexproof (assuming I win the first two games, Bx and Esper will wipe them anyways) so no more cute cards like W//T and Glare.

Deck Q & A:
Common question: MDU are you insane why are you running 10 citpt lands in an aggro deck?
Answer: We're not an aggro deck, we're a burn deck with no 1 drops or real two drops the citpt lands don't really hurt

Common question: Why Chandra, Pyromaster and Blind Obedience MD?
Answer: Both cards provide extra pressure on all MUs (grinding them down 1 extra life per turn adds up)

Sideboard choice:[/u:
1padfsh2]
All cards were selected to help take down the top5.

Assemble the Legion (Its a key card in beating Bx, I admit I maybe running 1 too many)

[card]Toil/Trouble[/card] (The primary win-con against control, after reading Z's post and adjusting my manabase - it has also become my sub-divination which is critical in picking up core cards in MUs like Ux Devotion where you really need to hit chains)

Blind Obedience (Anti-Burn, Anti-BW, Anti Monster, Anti-Whip card which is decent in pairs due too the 12 white sources)

Mizzium Mortars + Chained to the Rocks (anti-aggro/midrange/Bx cards - please don't bring all your mortars vs Bx (think about it before you jam them in))

Mutavault (only for the control MUs)

Skullcrack &#
40;this card may seem out-of-place in the SB, but I needed room for my other cards MD I also dislike Skull vs Ux Devotion and Monsters)

EDIT: what would you add over the 3rd Assemble?

Here are some videos running the early versions of Blind Zurm (I don't recommend running the list or using the SBP but it may give you an idea of how the deck runs).

SE Report 6953476
G1 Rw Burn vs Blind Zurm (MDU) SE 6953476
G2 Bx Devotion vs Blind Zurm (MDU) SE 6953476
G3 Split

Bx Devotion (G0D L1k3 No.4) vs Blind Zurm (MDU No.38)

(If you guys like the videos, SBP, music or just want to help out a fellow Red Bro - please Like, Sub and Comment, it provides me with some extra youtube money which is always fun)

Here is how my current list
looks like:

[deck=MDU's Angry Phoenix, Happy Chandra]Lands 23
6 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malice

Creatures 8
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Others 5
1 Blind Obedience
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 24
3 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Shock

Sideboard 15
4 Toil/Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Blind Obedience
1 Mutavault
1 Skullcrack
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]

Someone suggested I should move Skullcrack MD and the BO back into the SB, I do believe that person is making the correct choice since having only 1 BO lowers your chances of hitting it earlier which increases the chances of it becoming a dead card.

[Midnight_v]

(If you guys like the videos, SBP, music or just want to help out a fellow Red Bro - please Like, Sub and Comment, it provides me with some extra youtube money which is always fun)

Bitch please. I like, subscribe, and comment because you're shit is genuinely interesting to watch.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I played Zem's list at a Saturday cash tournament today -2 blood crypt, -4 toil & trouble, +2 mountains, +4 firedrinker satyr (because I couldn't find toil // trouble).

Went 4-0 beating mono black (2-1), UWr control (2-0), ub hidden strings (2-0) and esper humans (2-0) ftw.

Mono black player called me fucking gay under his breath even though he had double discatd all three games.

Uwr player had double fiendslayer and still got there.

Got a bloodstained mire for my trouble.

Japanese training has paid off.

[montu]

Match 4 - RW Burn (0-2)

Nothing much to say. He played better than I did. It didn't help G1 that I was stuck with 2 T//T in my hand.

-2 T//T
+2 Chandra, Pyromaster

The SB leaves much to be desired against the mirror.

Just saw my opp in this match made Top 8.

@LazerBurn - Thanks for the comments. You're right, in Match 7 I took out Anger, not Assemble. And in Match 8 I brought in FDS, Assemble, Chained and Chandra.


DOH - Just realized I "edited" this instead of quoting this, so lost the original post. Oh well. Guess I'll just have to get back to playing.

[Nezeru]

Cool. One of my friends was at 8-0-1 last I checked playing mono black
EDIT - He drew Adrian Sullivan and ended up in top 8 - 6th place...from 1st the round before because all of the 24's had to play it out

[Aodh]

6-3 at my first GP.

2-0 Burn
2-0 Dredge
0-2 Dredge
2-0 MBD
0-2 Bant Control
2-1 MBD
0-2 Bw Midrange
2-1 Bw Midrange
2-1 Jund Monsters

Forgot a round but will update once I reread my notes.

[Wipe Out]

I know we have some GP results coming in, but maybe to supplement that I'll throw in some notes from a local tournament. 5 round win-a-box tournament, ~30 people, I went 4-0, 8 game wins, 0 losses, decided to split the box and some money with the other contender. Absolute blast to play this deck, didn't add the Blood Crypts because I didn't have time to test them but really liked the extra temples (even the 2 of them let me cast Toil once). Took the NerdBoyWonder spin on the developing Z burn with T//T and starting to move to Dega. Specifically:

[deck]
Land: 23
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
3 Mutavault
7 Mountain

Creatures: 8

[
card]4 Young Pyromancer[/card]
[card]4 Chandra's Phoenix[/card]

Spells: 29
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
4 Lightning Strike
[card]4 Warleader's Helix[/card]
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
3 Shock
3 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard: 15

2 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Glare of Heresy
[card]1 Wear//Tear[/card]
[card]3 Toil//Trouble[/card]
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Spark Trooper
2 Blind Obedience
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
[/deck]

If anyone has any sideboarding
advice or general play advice, I'd love to hear it. I hope Burn stays viable during JOU, it's a fucking riot to play.

Round reports:

---

Round 1: Simic +1/+1 Counters Deck (Master Biomancer)
Deck revolves around evolve counters and Master Biomancer. Took me awhile to figure out wtf was going on.
G1: Get YP$ down pretty early and start burning his face and clogging up the ground. Magma Jet Experiment One before it gets regeneration ability and use YP tokens to chump his growing creatures. Main problem is one with trample but I Chains it and burn to victory.
+Chains, +2 Mortars, +2 Shock Trooper
-3 Searing Blood, -2 Shock
G2: More of the same. Looks grim for a time but YP tokens and chains slow him enough to win with Phoenix and Burn.

Round 2: WW (piloted by my girlfriend).
Oh boy, competitive event against the girl, what could possibly go wrong? She's playing WW without any real splash and tops out with spear, Ajani, and His Royal Cat King. Games are
closer than I would like sometimes.
G1: She gets a fast start, Dryad Militant, Soldier of the Pantheon and Precinct captain. Burn off one Soldier to have it replaced. Drop a phoenix and leave it to block, using it to chump her attackers and burn to buy it back while praying she doesn't topdeck another Brave the Elements. She doesn't, runs out of gas.
+1 Mortars, +1 Glare of Heresy, +2 Shock Trooper
-4 Skullcrack
G2: More of the same. Soldier of the Pantheon is a pain, takes the sting out of Boros Charm and Warleader's Helix. I am barely holding on, trying to keep her board clear-ish but not lose all gas myself. Manage to see both Shock Troopers to allow me to draw the burn I need to go to the face. Still need to think more on when to burn creatures vs. face, trying to strike the right balance without leaving myself wide open to a Brave the elements alpha strike.

Round 3: B/W Midrange
Good pilot, nice guy, consistently does well. Dunno why still on B/W but okay. Thought he was on
Mono B to start with. Assembled victory.
G1: Fast start with YP$ and supplemental burn. He gets some rats down but phoenix and burn chip away while YP clogs ground.
-3 Searing Blood, -3 Shock, -1 Magma Jet
+2 Assemble, +1 Chains, +3 Toil//Trouble, +1 Chandra
G2: He gets a rat down that I can't immediately burn off. YP$ does some defensive work for awhile but he Duress/Thoughtseizes my hand away. Some sneaky scrying puts Assemble right where I want it and it goes down. He has amassed a rat army and things are getting tricky. Scry into another Assemble while he gets a Demon down and I cannot find chains for the life of me. Both at about 10 life and it's a standoff with me slowly winning but all he needs is bile blight and it's over or devour flesh to keep him afloat. After a couple turns I topdeck the Lightning Strike I need to supplement a Soldier all out blitz, he doesn't have the Bile Blight.

Round 4: B/w Midrage.
Good pilot, nice girl who also does well. More of the same.
nG1: Goes fast. She does get an Obzedat down and I elect to LS/Searing Blood that thing when it attacks, providing enough YP$ tokens to finish her off next turn with some burn.
-3 Searing Blood, -3 Shock, -1 Magma Jet
+2 Assemble, +1 Chains, +3 Toil//Trouble, +1 Chandra
G2: Goes much longer than I would like. Double Thoughtseize out of the gate, taking Helix and YP$. I eventually get a Muta and Phoenix to do some work, chain a Demon she drops and then she starts on the pack rat plan. I get an assemble down but it's tight, she drops another Demon in addition to her rats, she's at 7 with 4 cards in hand. Topdeck Toil//Trouble and I have 8 lands, one Temple of Malice. Use 1 land to activate muta, swing muta, phoenix, soldiers (saccing one to demon) and push 3 damage through. Play T//T giving myself (at 8 life) the draw and her the 4 damage. She doesn't have the devour flesh and that's game.

At this point talk with the other guy I'll face and we decide half a box
each and some cash is nice to have no matter what. We split but play it out because I came to play Magic and he's a good control player.
Round 5: Esper
This is this guy's jam, U/W/x control, but we are set up to beat it.
G1: I make a misplay with a Skullcrack early on that lets the game go longer than it should but Phoenix, YP$, and plenty of burn finish it.
-3 Searing Blood, -2 Chains, -1 Shock
+3 Toil//Trouble, +1 Glare of Heresy, +1 Chandra
G2: Oh boy, he hits a Paladin on turn 3 and it really ruins my YP$ plan. Can't get it off the board and then Blood Baron comes down. Game is drawn out, try to do some tricky blocking/skullcracking but he holds me too long, gets some Planeswalker buddies to hang out and I can't get there.
G3: Same story. I play some early Toil//Trouble and get close but Paladin just slows me down long enough for Jace and then Blood Baron to come down. Long and painful and close but I drop it.

We are built to deal with Esper and I think my sideboarding was
very sub-optimal. I feel that bringing in Mortars is not good, it's so reactive to bring in 2 cards that can only counter one of his 3-4 Blood Barons. However, I should have maybe kept more chains in for Paladin. Need to play this out more. I feel like we are obviously heavily favored pre-board but feels like they can bring a lot of hate to the party that I need to plan for better.

Anyway, absolute blast to play. Thanks everyone for all of their information, DTR and this thread are amazing resources and while still trying get better the input from everyone and the Z/MDU videos are fantastic.

[LaZerBurn]

@ MDU - great vids, love the latest list and the excellent proposal of 'Crack MD over BO

@ J_S - well played dude! "Fucking gay" is an excellent result in itself

@ Montu - well done, sounds like you had a really rewarding day. Your overview and analysis is very honest and will serve you well moving forward I think

Match 2: vs that 21 one-drop red aggro (1-2)

+ 4x Satyr Firedancer
+ 1x Chandra, Pyromaster
+ 1x Anger of the Gods

-4 Toil//
Trouble
-2 Chained?

I'd try
+ 2 CttR + 4 SFD + 2 Chandra + 1 Anger

- 4 T//T - 4 Skullcrack - 1 Boros Charm

Match 4 - RW Burn (0-2)

-2 T//T
+2 Chandra, Pyromaster

The SB leaves much to be desired against the mirror.

T//T is really strong in the mirror, especially on the play. I'd try -3 CP - 1 Anger + 2 Chandra +2 CttR

Match 6 - B Devo (1-2) [EPIC GAME OF MISPLAYS]

+4 FDS
-1 Anger
-3 MJ

I know you brough in Assemble here too

Match 7 - Esper Control (0-2)

-2 Shock
-3 Searing Blood
-1 Assemble the Legion

+4 Firedrinker Satyr
+2 Chandra, Pyromaster

You don't have Assemble MD to SB it out, I guess it was the 3rd Shock?

[zemanjaski]

Top 8'd 1K, lost my quarterfinal, may have misplayed but it was close (got him to 1).

[LaZerBurn]

Well done Z!

[Lightning_Dolt]

Good results this weekend guys. I like that we are ahead of the curve (saw other players still playing firstblade). It also feels excellent to play a deck that THIS community developed.

Moving forward, I actually didn't hate the extra scry lands. The manabase feels reasonable.

At and Lazer, he was calling me fucking gay, because in game 3, he had demon into whip. I sacced a mutavault to tap down the demon, then burned him at EoT, drew a land and burned him for lethal. My outs were any untapped land (13 in deck), any chained to the rocks (4 in deck), any boros charm (4 in deck), any skullcrack (3 in deck) any creature (6 left in deck) or wear // tear ( 1 in deck). 31/49 cards were outs, yet I'm a fucking gay lucksack...lol. those were just outs to win that turn / not get hit by demon + whip. Good to be home I guess.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Oh, and my opponent had 2x TS G1, duress + TS in G2+3... lol

[zemanjaski]

Eventually you will acknowledge just how insane scrylands are.

[LaZerBurn]

Good results this weekend guys. I like that we are ahead of the curve (saw other players still playing firstblade). It also feels excellent to play a deck that THIS community developed.

Moving forward, I actually didn't hate the extra scry lands. The manabase feels reasonable.

At and Lazer, he was calling me fucking gay, because in game 3, he had demon into whip. I sacced a mutavault to tap down the demon, then burned him at EoT, drew a land and burned him for lethal. My outs were any untapped land (13 in deck), any chained to the rocks (4 in deck), any boros charm (4 in deck), any skullcrack (3 in deck) any creature (6 left in deck) or wear // tear ( 1 in deck). 31/49 cards were outs, yet I'm a fucking gay lucksack...lol. those were just outs to win
that turn / not get hit by demon + whip. Good to be home I guess.

It's good to have you home here at DTR Keith

@Z - you're correct, scrylands are INSANE - I'm running 8 (MDU's manabase) and loving it

[rage_jl]

I'm liking the 8 scrylands as well, 4 triumph, 2 silence, 2 malice. I've never had a major hiccup from having too many come into play tapped worries there seems an even mix where when I need to make a critical play I have untapped lands. I washed out this weekend at an SCG Super IQ, but round one G3 he had turn four whip, turn 5 gray merch, turn 6 gray merch, turn 7 gray merch and showed me had the fourth when after that third killed me. Round two I lost to Uw devotion when G3 he had 4 frostburn wierds and 2 master of waves. Bad beats but nothing to cry about the deck performed well and I played a few more rounds despite not having a chance and I had a lot of fun playing. Thanks for the deck Z and everyone else this place is invaluable.

[zemanjaski]

So, going to be trying this deck list this week. I am not saying it is good, ONLY that I will be testing it:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Sorceries
4 Toil // Trouble

Lands
4 Blood Crypt
2 Boros Guildgate
5 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Glare of Heresy
4 Peak Eruption
4 Satyr Firedancer
[/deck]

Just played through an 8-man

2-1 WIN vs MBC (resolved Assemble on him, was sweet)
2-1 WIN vs GR Devotion (the Nykthos combo version)
2-0 WIN vs Mono Red Aggro (
racing Helix is difficult)

[magicdownunder]

I hope that list becomes the norm on MODO

[zemanjaski]

Killed two dudes with Chandra's ultimate today, valued another guy out with her. Card is so absurd out of the sideboard.

[Toddington]

Exclusively against UW, or have you being bringing her in elsewhere?

[zemanjaski]

...

[JohnnyfnB]

Seeing Toil/Trouble a card I suggested to use weeks ago, that people thought I was crazy and said sucked, now are main decked. Same thing with the Blood Crypts. I haven't had a problem with either of those cards while playing. I still have yet to face a mirror, but I know no one grinds like Zem, so if he hasn't chucked them from his build, they are very playable. Makes me feel like I'm swimming in a pool of Ginger Ale. The bubbles are tickling my bean bag.

Silliness aside, I'm glad people recognized that the card is a thing! With the paper meta going control crazy just gets you full value with that card. As people have been finding out, aside from a weenie deck that drops their hand by T4, it's great against most decks early on.

[Toddington]

Hell, I don't know, you seem unlikely to ultimate her if she's getting attacked.

[zemanjaski]

Seeing Toil/Trouble a card I suggested to use weeks ago, that people thought I was crazy and said sucked, now are main decked. Same thing with the Blood Crypts. I haven't had a problem with either of those cards while playing. I still have yet to face a mirror, but I know no one grinds like Zem, so if he hasn't chucked them from his build, they are very playable. Makes me feel like I'm swimming in a pool of Ginger Ale. The bubbles are tickling my bean bag.

Silliness aside, I'm glad people recognized that the card is a thing! With the paper meta going control crazy just gets you full value with that card. As people have been finding out, aside from a weenie
deck that drops their hand by T4, it's great against most decks early on.

My observation from playing the card a bunch is that it isn't good, but instead, that players are just fucking awful. It is ridiculous how much people play into the card even after they have seen either it, or at least black mana.

[zemanjaski]

Hell, I don't know, you seem unlikely to ultimate her if she's getting attacked.

You're aware that she is absurd against creature based aggro decks too right? You've read the card I assume.

[Toddington]

Hell, I don't know, you seem unlikely to ultimate her if she's getting attacked.

You're aware that she is absurd against creature based aggro decks too right? You've read the card I assume.

Even decks mostly have X/2's? I can understand how she's insane if you are beating down, but this archetype has little creature pressure, your most recent deck virtually none.

[JohnnyfnB]

Seeing Toil/Trouble a card I suggested to use weeks ago, that people thought I was crazy and said sucked, now are main decked. Same thing with the Blood Crypts. I haven't had a problem with either of those cards while playing. I still have yet to face a mirror, but I know no one grinds like Zem, so if he hasn't chucked them from his build, they are very playable. Makes me feel like I'm swimming in a pool of Ginger Ale. The bubbles are tickling my bean bag.

Silliness aside, I'm glad people
recognized that the card is a thing! With the paper meta going control crazy just gets you full value with that card. As people have been finding out, aside from a weenie deck that drops their hand by T4, it's great against most decks early on.

My observation from playing the card a bunch is that it isn't good, but instead, that players are just fucking awful. It is ridiculous how much people play into the card even after they have seen either it, or at least black mana.

I will respectfully disagree with you in saying it isn't a good card. On turn 3 for 3 mana you can do 4 to 7 damage to an opponent. That's not a bad card. Now with a mana base to back up the Toil section of the card to use for more gas or add to the damage of your opponent, makes it more playable and valuable. You of all people would not play a bad card, especially 4 of. I will agree the card can be a weak liability at times, but so can every other magic card. Turn 1 Thoughtseize is awesome.
Turn 8 Thoughtseize when your at 2 life isn't.

[zemanjaski]

Everyone likes to argue. The card is not at all consistent. Trying to make an argument by alluding to one of the best cards in the format that primarily features in an archetype that can discard it when it is no longer good, or in an archetype that draws so many cards so as to render a dead card in hand irrelevant is just unconvincing. Yes, the card is brutal many times turn 3 on the play, woopdedo. It feels like every time that some fringe card you like gets the slightest consideration by me, you excitedly throw it back in my face. Good for you, the card is better than I thought but still not as good as you think it is.

[Kaitscralt]

James has an ongoing problem understanding what makes stuff good

[zemanjaski]

I seem to win a lot for someone with that problem.

[JohnnyfnB]

"I respectfully disagree" isn't a typical opening for an argument. I also stated that I agree that the card can be a weak liability. I know the card isn't good all the time I have played it for a long time. It's not about some fringe card that I like that you give consideration and I throw it back in your face, it's about a card that I (or anyone else that posts) that you quickly dismiss as stupid or bad, then wind up playing 4 of. Like you have said before, you want to be acknowledged of your accomplishments and rightfully so, as you should. You pretty much single handedly started this whole thing, but now you have a massive think tank constantly working on the deck. Once you started writing articles and doing videos, your deck has now become our deck. Everyone here just wants to contribute and win more with the deck. When you make a suggestion and it gets shot down as useless or stupid, then it gets
used with good results and reviews from everyone, it gets annoying. That's my line, not the personal attack you are suggesting.

[zemanjaski]

Pretty sure I stated I am testing the deck and obviously I am running it as a 4-of given that is what was in the GP Beijing list that I am testing. I am declining to respond to the rest of that.

[dauntless268]

Other topic: In the YP build, add back the 4th Mutavault as 24th land to maximize chance to have a t1 Mutavault opening? It seems a logical possibility now that we don't have Ash anymore and found new love for an additional 4-drop in Chandra, Pyromaster. Curve has risen quite a bit with YP, too. To be understood as an alternative option to running tons of Scrylands...

[Pedros]

Played MDU last version yesteday after PTQ, easy 6-0. 3 ASsembles, 3 blind obediences for those matchups where they matters are awsome.

Imo BO > Peak Eruption, but still needs testing. BO is useful vs monsters and obzedats also.

Green Agro , White Agro and Red Agro looks like they become more and more popular. First 2 doesnt run removal. Should firedanecers > Mortars now?

[Tyrael]

Everyone likes to argue. The card is not at all consistent. Trying to make an argument by alluding to one of the best cards in the format that primarily features in an archetype that can discard it when it is no longer good, or in an archetype that draws so many cards so as to render a dead card in hand irrelevant is just unconvincing. Yes, the card is brutal many times turn 3 on the play, woopdedo. It feels like every time that some fringe card you like gets the slightest consideration by me, you excitedly throw it back in my face. Good for you, the card is better than I thought but still not as good as you think it is.

I ran Boros Burn for a good three months before BNG came out and I definitely agree with this. Just because some control
players are dumb enough to Sphinx on their own turn and walk right into a Trouble for seven doesn't make the card good. Also, if you want to drop it on turn three you'll probably need 3-4 copies in your sb and the card is a terrible topdeck lategame when control will just be able to keep up counterspell mana forever anyway. More often than not the card would be sitting in my hand being basically a shock for 3 mana which is terrible. I'd rather have something more impactful in the board.

tl;dr the card was more trouble (har har) than it was worth

[LaZerBurn]

Played MDU last version yesteday after PTQ, easy 6-0. 3 ASsembles, 3 blind obediences for those matchups where they matters are awsome.

Imo BO > Peak Eruption, but still needs testing. BO is useful vs monsters and obzedats also.

Green Agro , White Agro and Red Agro looks like they become more and more popular. First 2 doesnt run removal. Should firedanecers > Mortars now?

Good result Pedros!

I'm also still not 100% on PE Vs BO but I've played no mirrors for a week so I'm happy with BO for now. Beating Ghost Dad is always nice too

If those 2 archetypes continue to grow
in popularity then I think that's a good call. I need little encouragement to run Dancer, I the card

Are you bringing in Assemble against the G deck?

[dauntless268]

Tyrael, I don't think we should throw the evaluation of T/T as a maindeck and as a SB card into one pot...

[dauntless268]

Played MDU last version yesteday after PTQ, easy 6-0. 3 ASsembles, 3 blind obediences for those matchups where they matters are awsome.

Imo BO > Peak Eruption, but still needs testing. BO is useful vs monsters and obzedats also.

Green Agro , White Agro and Red Agro looks like they become more and more popular. First 2 doesnt run removal. Should firedanecers > Mortars now?

Good to see you found a deck you like, Pedros I know you were searching for a long time.

Re: SFD. I've e gone back and forth on the card as many times as everyone else. As long as the (MTGO) top five stay the decks they are, I'm afraid Mortars is more versatile.

Although I
agree on LaZer's affectionate for the card...

[zemanjaski]

I like Firedancer a lot in the version with maindeck Toil // Trouble; you just make the switch after sideboarding and you have 26 ways to trigger them which is excellent.