Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[Zooligan]

Yarpus just name-dropped Firemane Avenger in the Pyro thread. Wonder how a couple of those might fit in the Big Boros scheme?

[salmonman78]

I really like that spell load out, and this list would allow you to abuse devotion / Nykthos a little more. I also wonder about Ember Swallower.

It looks good to me as well, fills a wide area of needs we have. As for swallower I'll comment after this next quote.

Yarpus just name-dropped Firemane Avenger in the Pyro thread. Wonder how a couple of those might fit in the Big Boros scheme?

Avenger is a 4cc Flying 3/3 with a Battalion ability of "Lightning Helix" and sounds great. When I first built this deck I tried her and never really was able to
use her ability and all they did was draw removal. Great idea but at this time I just can't see it being as good in the 4cc spot as Ember Swallower. The monsterous isn't even a big thing here, what is a big deal is his fat ass. He is a 4/5 that can live through a Smiter, a Baron, among other things a 3/3 would just pass out to. Having 4 power can be a detriment if they drop an Elspeth for a wipe, but more often they will try to swarm around it.

I've speculated on Firemane and got a Foil set because I think it might become useful, but just not right now. We need Swallower to be a pseudo-wall we can use to block and have live to attack. I would definitely pop him in as a 2 of.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Im on the fence about Ember Swallower. He is not bad. His monstrous is irrelevent but as Salmon has said its his body. He beats most creatures that see play but i say he is meta dependent. If the meta is heavy creature builds, board him. Reckoner, Swallower and Dragon are just big walls that creature decks can't deal with.

On the other hand if the meta is control Swallower does nothing. Fanatic would be our only creature choice because of his board impact but still suffers if control is heavy removal and you can't keep a high enough devotion. Preferably our 4 drop of choice is Chandra.

I'm in the same boat as Salmonman about Firemane Avenger. It's the card we want but not what we need right now. Getting that battalion to go off is a bit of trouble because of the environment.

[Aodh]

Member Swallower's monstrosity isn't irrelevant; Nykthosing into an early one can end any match-up.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Not crazy about firemane. She does nothing the turn she enters and dies to nearly everything. If you could T3 hammer > T4 FMA (firemane avenger, not Fuck my ass) it might be interesting, but then you probably don't have batallion.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Member Swallower's monstrosity isn't irrelevant; Nykthosing into an early one can end any match-up.

IF and ONLY IF you go the devotion route but Devotion Big Red is comboey. Comboing out and getting a turn 3 stormbreath ends games quick too.

In Big Boros as we have it built now is a sledge hammer like deck. Ember Swallower will be a 4/5 to us more than being a land destroyer.

[salmonman78]

Member Swallower's monstrosity isn't irrelevant; Nykthosing into an early one can end any match-up.

Yeah but we're not looking at devotion in this type of Red. Like above we're more of a Sledgehammer that just keeps slamming on you until it's done. Big and heavy and that's what Swallower does in our games.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Member Swallower's monstrosity isn't irrelevant; Nykthosing into an early one can end any match-up.

Yeah but we're not looking at devotion in this type of Red. Like above we're more of a Sledgehammer that just keeps slamming on you until it's done. Big and heavy and that's what Swallower does in our games.

Big Boros and Devotion seem to be merging.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Big Boros and Devotion seem to be merging.

By merging the deck becomes so ething else entirely. The strategy and gameplan becomes and entirely different deck. Boros Devotion with Dragons took second at SCG LA:
[deck]Creatures (28)

4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Lands (25)

11 Mountain
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Spells (7)

1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Mizzium Mortars
Sideboard

4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Farthest thing from optimum. I love
the hammer but I would not play 3 mainboard.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Big Boros and Devotion seem to be merging.

By merging the deck becomes so ething else entirely. The strategy and gameplan becomes and entirely different deck. Boros Devotion with Dragons took second at SCG LA:
[deck]Creatures (28)

4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Lands (25)

11 Mountain
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Spells (7)

1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Mizzium Mortars
Sideboard

4
Firedrinker Satyr
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Farthest thing from optimum. I love the hammer but I would not play 3 mainboard.

That list also top 8'd the GP.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Creaures are spot on but the GP deck includes Chandra:

[deck]25 LANDS
11 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate

28 CREATURES
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird

3 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
3 Mizzium Mortars

4 OTHER SPELLS
2 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

SIDEBOARD
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Assemble the Legion
4 Boros Charm
1 Ember Swallower
2 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge[/deck]

Devotion based Boros loses burn and Phoenix. I'm not entirely too sure what is to gain from the deck though. Fanatic can win stalled boardstates. BTE doesn't do much but be a devotion pump with the real only viable use of the mana being to dump into Nykthos.

The decklist has
my interest peaked and since the major standard tournies have pretty much passed locally I do have some wiggle room to screw around and test a bit.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Creaures are spot on but the GP deck includes Chandra:

[deck]25 LANDS
11 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate

28 CREATURES
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Frostburn Weird

3 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
3 Mizzium Mortars

4 OTHER SPELLS
2 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

SIDEBOARD
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Assemble the Legion
4 Boros Charm
1 Ember Swallower
2 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge[/deck]

Devotion based Boros loses burn and Phoenix. I'm not entirely too sure what is to gain from the deck
though. Fanatic can win stalled boardstates. BTE doesn't do much but be a devotion pump with the real only viable use of the mana being to dump into Nykthos.

The decklist has my interest peaked and since the major standard tournies have pretty much passed locally I do have some wiggle room to screw around and test a bit.

You'll see monsterous dragons a lot more...

[NerdBoyWonder]

Going to test this list tonight to get a feel of how it plays:

[deck]Creatures 28
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Ash Zealot
4 Frostborn Weird
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 7
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Motors
2 Chained to Rocks
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Lands 25
11 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate[/deck]

No sideboard as of yet. Going to just see how the deck plays out more so then try to grind for a meta.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Going to test this list tonight to get a feel of how it plays:

[deck]Creatures 28
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Ash Zealot
4 Frostborn Weird
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 7
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Motors
2 Chained to Rocks
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Lands 25
11 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate[/deck]

No sideboard as of yet. Going to just see how the deck plays out more so then try to grind for a meta.

It seems too midrange-y to me. Let me know what you think.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Same thoughts also. I'll definitley have more details up by tonight or tomorrow with just my initial opinion/experience with the list. I'm not liking the lack of removal/burn. Also not having chandra's phoenix is a bit of a turn off. That bird has won me more games lately than anything else. Also with only 4x Cacklers im not entirely too sure needing a one drop in this build matters.

If all else fails I can revert back to my Game Day list.

[salmonman78]

I just think all this trying to get cutesy with devotion isn't for this style of the deck. Taking away the Phoenix, cutting burn, none of it seems to really fit well with what the style of "BIG ----" is supposed to be.

On it's own the devotion style can be good, and the Big style can be good, but trying to mix them sounds just bad. Like when you really want a soda but all you have left is a little bit of Diet Coke and a little bit of regular coke so you mix them just for a full glass. It tastes horrible.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Top 8ing SCGO and GPs with hundreds of players sounds bad to you?

[salmonman78]

Top 8ing SCGO and GPs with hundreds of players sounds bad to you?

LOL! Not at all, just trying to say that devotion is a way different style than we started with and tends toward a different line of play than the normal "Big" style that can go multiple angles.

That and I just feel weird having a lot less burn in my deck than critters. But I will say the lists are a great thing and I am glad Boros is getting out there more.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Ok lol. I tend to agree with you on all three points.

[NerdBoyWonder]

First few initial games are proving the deck plays entirely different. Its okay. There are some powerful plays and there are really dead plays. It is a big haymaker deck. Not my kind of deck. Sledgehammer big boros is way more consistent.

[Zooligan]

Which one are you calling Sledgehammer BB?

[NerdBoyWonder]

Our original list is Sledgehammer. The new Boros Devotion is too much a haymaker deck. If it hits it hits hard.

Testing games against Mono Blue with my original list with Magma Jets mainboard. Close games but more in their favor.

Overall Magma Jet is solid. Magma Jet has helped me pull some games in my favor but hasn't been good enough to cause a win. Much of that could be due to variance though. Opponents drawing 3 of their 4 removals each game while I draw none of mine. Also been flooding and bricking on mana. First time the deck has ran cold since I put it together. Sticking with Sledgehammer Big Boros unless the meta shifts to Mono Blue Devotion locally. Deck is annoying.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Our original list is Sledgehammer. The new Boros Devotion is too much a haymaker deck. If it hits it hits hard.

Testing games against Mono Blue with my original list with Magma Jets mainboard. Close games but more in their favor.

Overall Magma Jet is solid. Magma Jet has helped me pull some games in my favor but hasn't been good enough to cause a win. Much of that could be due to variance though. Opponents drawing 3 of their 4 removals each game while I draw none of mine. Also been flooding and bricking on mana. First time the deck has ran cold since I put it together. Sticking with Sledgehammer Big Boros unless the meta shifts to Mono Blue Devotion locally. Deck is annoying.

Big boros is one of the best red decks
against mono u.

[NerdBoyWonder]

I agree after playing it. Could just be that my opponent (my brother) was lucky that he saw triple 2 drop blue merfolk & double Master of Waves each game lol. Not entirely surprised that both my testing partners are positioning themselves with decks to beat mine.

Since our community is small that is what normally happens. Whoever is top dog gets hated out after a big win. Was also told that the other player that played Mono Red is now on Mono Black Devo.

[salmonman78]

Ok, needing just a small bit of outside looking at my SB choices I have for tomorrow/this weekend @Open. (Deck is posted above)

The 2x Celestial Flare I have I am in contemplation to take out. I haven't really sided them in for a while, but now with a possibility of Esper popping back up(more than it was for a couple weeks) and needing a 2nd answer to Obzedat at instant speed.

What I was considering taking it out for was a 4th Chained and either a 3rd Mortars or a 3rd Anger of the gods. Part of me is worried that I shouldn't mess with what is already working for me even if it's been a while, since when I did face Esper previously it worked quite well. Sorry if rambling just wanting to make sure I have the best chances I can. Would love to translate my constant Top 4ing at FNM to a good spot at the Open.

[magicdownunder]

Those who are not running Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, why aren't you running 04x Vaults? (21 red sources is enough for Mr Rec)

[Zooligan]

Because I hate not being able to cast Zealot on T2.

[Khaospawn]

Because I hate not being able to cast Zealot on T2.

Actually 21 Mountains are good for that.

All last season, pre-Mutavault reprint, I rocked 21 mountain AND a single Hellion Crucible. Maybe 1 out of 50 games, I was unable to cast Zealot on turn 2.

[Zooligan]

I've got awful mana luck. I'm constantly getting things like Temple, Mountain, Mutavault, Zealot, Jet, Cackler, Lightning Strike for my opener, drawing into another Temple or some such bullshit.

That's with 14 R, 3 Mutas, and the 8 duals. Can't even imagine how bad it would get with 4 'vaults. I'd shoot myself.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I run the full set of vaults.

[salmonman78]

I have contemplated 'Vaults but just haven't taken the time to get them. But thanks to this conversation I remembered one of the changes I wanted to make to my deck before this weekend. Definitely dropping the 4 plains to 2-1.

[NerdBoyWonder]

I run 2x Mutavaults because while being a solid card it is not a card I want to see every game. Also I don't run Nykthos because even though in some games we can generate lots of devotion mana what are we going to dump it into when we don't have a dragon on board? Dragon is our only viable devotion mana sink. Not worth it.

List with sideboard I am taking to FNM:
[deck]Creatures 24
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrink Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Artifacts 1
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Instants & Sorceries 10
4 Magma Jet
3 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Motors

Land 24
14 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Mutavault

Sideboard
3 Anger the Gods
4 Chained to Rocks
2 Burning Earth
2 Wear//Tear
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Boros Charm
1 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

From my initial list I added another dragon,
dropped a Boros Charm and swapped Lightning Strikes for Magma Jets. Also testing Johnny's new sideboard to see how it fairs. I expect to have all decks gearing to take me down after the Game Day win. With my meta consisting of:
Mono Black Devotion
Little Mermaid (Mono Blue Devotion)
Dega Midrange
Gruul Monsters
White/x Aggro
Random Jank (Dimir Mill, etc)

I just want to see where my deck stands and how the new board works. Full report to come tomorrow or Saturday.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I run 2x Mutavaults because while being a solid card it is not a card I want to see every game. Also I don't run Nykthos because even though in some games we can generate lots of devotion mana what are we going to dump it into when we don't have a dragon on board? Dragon is our only viable devotion mana sink. Not worth it.

List with sideboard I am taking to FNM:
[deck]Creatures 24
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrink Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Artifacts 1
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Instants & Sorceries 10
4 Magma Jet
3 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Motors

Land 24
14 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Mutavault

Sideboard
3 Anger the
Gods
4 Chained to Rocks
2 Burning Earth
2 Wear//Tear
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Boros Charm
1 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

From my initial list I added another dragon, dropped a Boros Charm and swapped Lightning Strikes for Magma Jets. Also testing Johnny's new sideboard to see how it fairs. I expect to have all decks gearing to take me down after the Game Day win. With my meta consisting of:
Mono Black Devotion
Little Mermaid (Mono Blue Devotion)
Dega Midrange
Gruul Monsters
White/x Aggro
Random Jank (Dimir Mill, etc)

I just want to see where my deck stands and how the new board works. Full report to come tomorrow or Saturday.

I know I said this before, but hammer should still be a mutavault.

[salmonman78]

Hmm, now this has me wondering when I take out 2 plains do I make it 2 Mountains or try and find a Mutavault and run 2x Vault.

In my head it sounds like it could delay my zealot or reckoner to a turn later but could also be handy as a critter in a pinch. Curious now...

[Lightning_Dolt]

I played Big Boros (but not really since I played dragon once all night lol) at FNM and went 2-1.

Round 1 VS Esper Control.

G1: On the play. Standard beatdown + reach.

G2: On the draw. Really grindy. Opponent top decks exactly what he needs all the time and uses Jace to blank my 30 soldier tokens and beats me to death with a blood baron I can't answer. Assemble the Legion is probably coming out of the board.

G3: On the play. Standard beatdown + reach.

1-0-0

Round 2 VS Junk Reanimator.

G1: He has literally every card I don't want to see in standard. He beats me up.

G2: My hand has 2x Charm and 2x Strike, So i attack with a mutavault a few times, then point everything at the head. My burn knocks him to 2, but he stabilizes with an Obzedat + whip and smacks me down.

1-1-0

Round 3 VS Brad Nelson's
Mono Red Heroic.

G1: On the play. We race and I finish him with Lightning Strike + Boros Charm to the dome.

G2: On the draw. I kept a hand of Sacred Foundry, Mutavault, Chained to the Rocks, Chained to the Rocks, Mizzium Mortars, Lightning Strike, Lightning Strike.

I 1 for 1'd him until he was on top decks (inspite of a 3x BTE > FFS draw) and then beat him down with vaults. He was helpless because he drew [card]Titan's Strength[/card] and Mountains. Weird game. I had 1 Sacred Foundry and 3x Mutavault for lands... I was on 2 life when he died.

2-1-0

[card]Assemble the Legion[/
card] made over 30 tokens but got blanked by a single Jace lol. Dropping it.

[Yarpus]

Avenger seemed to fit Pyrowhite deck as it has ways of generating tokens. Tokens = easy-peazy battalion. It's not a case in Big Boros.
Ember Swallower or... Hundred-Handed One if manabase can handle it.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Went 3-1 at FNM. Full report to be posted later. Placed 4th out of 10. Room was full of aggro (R/x, W/b, and Mono Blue) and control (devo black and variants, junk, dega, and dimir). Won most of my games through sideboard.

Quick notes:
- lost a game in round 1 because I was off by one damage. Had a magma jet in hand which would have been a lightning strike. Bad feels.
- mizzium is being moved to my sideboard while Chained to Rocks sits in its place Main. No one is running dragon or blood baron. Need main deck answers to Polukranos and other fatties.
- hammer is going out not because it's bad but because I sideboard it out every match up.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Went 3-1 at FNM. Full report to be posted later. Placed 4th out of 10. Room was full of aggro (R/x, W/b, and Mono Blue) and control (devo black and variants, junk, dega, and dimir). Won most of my games through sideboard.

Quick notes:
- lost a game in round 1 because I was off by one damage. Had a magma jet in hand which would have been a lightning strike. Bad feels.
- mizzium is being moved to my sideboard while Chained to Rocks sits in its place Main. No one is running dragon or blood baron. Need main deck answers to Polukranos and other fatties.
- hammer is going out not because it's bad but because I sideboard it out every match up.

I actually moved back to lightning strike. I think I was overreacting to variance.

[Zooligan]

Couldn't make FNM last night. Going to a free tourny at the same store tonite, settled on this for the growing ranks of G/W and U/W:

[deck=Zooligan's Big Boros v0.3, Week ending 11/9 ]
Creatures (19)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Pyrewild Shaman
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (12)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Enchantments (2)
2 Chained to the Rocks

Plainswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land (24)
14 Mountain
2 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Wear // Tear
2 Skullcrack
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Traitorous Instinct[/deck]

Post results tomorrow.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Couldn't make FNM last night. Going to a free tourny at the same store tonite, settled on this for the growing ranks of G/W and U/W:

[deck=Zooligan's Big Boros v0.3, Week ending 11/9 ]
Creatures (19)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Pyrewild Shaman
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (12)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Enchantments (2)
2 Chained to the Rocks

Plainswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land (24)
14 Mountain
2 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Wear // Tear
2 Skullcrack
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Traitorous Instinct[/deck]

Post results tomorrow.

Why two
dragons? You could probably get away with 23 land.