[Variant] All-In Mono Red

[F.I.A]

I like that. Having Boros Charm means that we can overextend with only the risk of getting hit by Mutilate, Golgari Charm or Terminus (All except the first one are not that common). At the very worst, we can go upstairs for 4. I'll try it with this sideboard on Tourney Practice over at mtgo later.

[deck]4 Pillar of Flame
4 Mizzium Mortar
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Burning Oil[/deck]

Edit: Hmm, I thought Burning Oil flashback at three, so maybe another card to fit in.

[Christen]

How was the matchup with Junk?

[RDW]

Hmmm. I like the deck, Zemanjaski. Is it worth the consistence loss, however, to introduce another color? Esp. on 8 lands, I'm not sure if it's reliable enough, though Boros Charm seems nice...

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, probably not worth it. Junk was fine, didn't get nut drawn in any of my games, so I was killing very easily through resistance. You can kill through 1 Thragtusk easily with Dynacharge, but I'm sure if they start re animating you're a goner.

[RDW]

Yeah, but with so much consistency (the deck seems like it'd work like a machine), you should reliably be able to kill before they begin reanimating. It's near-impossible for any Rx decks to deal with turn-two Grisly Salvage into Angel of Serenity + Unburial Rites, so being able to quickly beat them each and every time seems like a desirable characteristic to have in this kinda' deck. I may play turbo-red on Wednesday for 3 rounds; if so, I'll let you know if I have any feedback.

[zemanjaski]

Most hands with BTE plus Dynacharge threaten a turn 4 kill, so you want to be as consistent as possible. There is definitely room for improvement in the 75 though; even in the 60.

Discussion points:
- GHC or Krenko's Command? Command is better with the pumps and battalion guys, which I think puts it over the edge personally; those interactions are key to the deck. In the alternative, GHC is better with Lightning Mauler.
- Pillar may be unnecessary or unwanted maindeck, unsure. You're a little better positioned to deal with Voice than a more traditional aggro deck anyway, and it's your weakest card in most matchups. Playing more guys to set up a bigger alpha isn't a bad alternative in most board states; and where that's a bad option (wrath decks), pillar is bad also.
- Are there any other good 1 or 2 mana haste guys? This deck loves cheap haste guys.
- I think adding the 8 RW duals and switching Dynacharge for Rally
the Peasants is a pretty substantial upgrade. You do lose the 1 mana combat trick mode, which isn't irrelevant, but having access to flashback is a BIG GAME.

Looking forward to discussion

[LP, of the Fires]

I have two contributing points.

I think Krenko's command is better then GHC in this style of deck as it gets more mileage out of your pumps and creating more battalion is exactly what you want to do. That, and if you decide to add foundry street denizen for something like pillar of flame, you get more nut draws.

Secondly, for once, you're going to here me say that I think you should cut pillar. Mulliganing seems extra bad for this deck compared to other agro decks and pillar can just screw up so many hands. I'd just add another cheap dude.

[zemanjaski]

Foundry Street seems pretty good as either a 2/1 or 3/1 for 1.

[Calamity]

I tested foundry street in this deck before, he's not bad. He's really good with BTE chains plus legion loyalist. If you run him I'd run krenko's command though. BTE'ing into krenko with foundry street is pretty ridiculous

[zemanjaski]

Makes you wonder if Goblins might be a thing when all the sets overlap briefly before rotation. Any word on a Goblin Chieftain reprint?

[Link]

MB pillars definitely have to come out if you want speed

[conejo]

How does this deck NOT fold to lingering souls? I was played this deck for 4 weeks. i went 3-0 at fnm twice. and 2-2 twice. I found that the deck is pretty awful against Archie Jace, Lingering souls KILLS. Doom traveler and Young wolf are extremely crippling. my list was as follows.

4 Ash Z
4 BTE
4 Lightning Mauler
4 pyreheart wolfe
4 firefist striker
4 stromkirk noble
3 stonwright (great with legion loyalist) also helps against Archie Jace
4 rakdos cackler
4 legion loyalist (seems like the only answer to Lingering Souls and doomed traveler)
2 hellrider
4 searing spear
19 mountain

[zemanjaski]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[Valdarith]

Most hands with BTE plus Dynacharge threaten a turn 4 kill, so you want to be as consistent as possible. There is definitely room for improvement in the 75 though; even in the 60.

Discussion points:
- GHC or Krenko's Command? Command is better with the pumps and battalion guys, which I think puts it over the edge personally; those interactions are key to the deck. In the alternative, GHC is better with Lightning Mauler.
- Pillar may be unnecessary or unwanted maindeck, unsure. You're a little better positioned to deal with Voice than a more traditional aggro deck anyway, and it's your weakest card in most matchups. Playing more guys to set up a bigger alpha isn't a bad alternative in most board states; and where that's a bad option (wrath decks),
pillar is bad also.
- Are there any other good 1 or 2 mana haste guys? This deck loves cheap haste guys.
- I think adding the 8 RW duals and switching Dynacharge for Rally the Peasants is a pretty substantial upgrade. You do lose the 1 mana combat trick mode, which isn't irrelevant, but having access to flashback is a BIG GAME.

Looking forward to discussion

- Krenko's is definitely better in this deck.
- Given that this deck deals with Voice a little more favorably, I'd save Pillar for the sideboard.
- Only card I can think of is Rakdos Shred-Freak (*shudders*). Doesn't help that he can't chain off BTE.
- It's huge actually, but I'd run 10 white sources with the final two lands being Temple Garden to cast BTE.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (28)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker

Spells (14)
2 Boros Charm
4 Rally the Peasants
4 Searing Spear
4 Krenko's Command

Lands (18)
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
9 Mountain
[/deck]

[RDW]

I don't think AIR can support a second color. Considering only decks with 18 lands (the numbers are basically the same for 17-19 land decks), we're going to find openers with 2-3 lands only 57.35% of the time (and these are pretty much snap-keeps in mono-R with how consistent the deck is as long as our mana's situated). Introducing a second color opens up the possibility of (Temple Garden + other land + Ash Zealot) or (Clifftop Retreat + Clifftop Retreat + no other land) openers, which sacrifices percentage points we honestly don't have. The greedy 8 dual + basics mana base is probably our best shot if we wanna' add another color; given that we're only keeping a 2- or 3-lander, the probability of hitting white before we need it (uhhh, turn-3?) is P(white by 3) = P(white by 3 | white in the opener)*P(white in the opener) + P(white by 3 | white not in the opener)*P(white not in the opener) = 1*(.71*.34+.85*.24) + (.28 on
the play, .39 on the draw)*.55 = 60% on the play, 66% on the draw.

I guess I could get on-board with that for 4-6 white spells, but adding a Temple Garden's really going to mess up our Ash Zealots and double 1-drop hands. I'd probably run:

[deck]AIRw[/deck]

Not sure on the buff numbers because I haven't played at all, and same thing with the SB.

[Link]

hmmm he does have a point with taplands... I have shipped my fair share number of Crag_Crag hands with a sigh

[RDW]

To be fair, opening with double Clifftop Retreat on 2-lands has probability 0.04, so it's not too bad, but that does shave us to ~50% acceptable openers... Might be the threshold. Adding the Temple Garden pushes it too far for sure, IMO.

[Valdarith]

You could always just go the Gruul way and *gasp* not play Ash Zealot. Sub in Gore-House Chainwalker instead so you aren't worried about Garden + Clifftop hands as much. Granted, you can't play any of your red one drops on turn one from that kind of hand.

[RDW]

You could always just go the Gruul way and *gasp* not play Ash Zealot. Sub in Gore-House Chainwalker instead so you aren't worried about Garden + Clifftop hands as much. Granted, you can't play any of your red one drops on turn one from that kind of hand.

I wouldn't mind missing Ash Zealot if it was worth it otherwise, but Temple Garden would really throw a wrench in the gears.

[Valdarith]

You could always just go the Gruul way and *gasp* not play Ash Zealot. Sub in Gore-House Chainwalker instead so you aren't worried about Garden + Clifftop hands as much. Granted, you can't play any of your red one drops on turn one from that kind of hand.

I wouldn't mind missing Ash Zealot if it was worth it otherwise, but Temple Garden would really throw a wrench in the gears.

It would be a little worse here in a deck running 12-16 one drops, but in Gruul sligh running 18 lands I honestly can't remember the last time I had a Garden + Crag hand. The odds of this
occuring if running one Garden are so ridiculously low that the benefits of running an extra white source far outweigh the risks.

[Link]

cutting ash zealot would be the death of this deck ;P

[Valdarith]

cutting ash zealot would be the death of this deck ;P

I personally would not want to do it either. I'd rather just run one color.

[RDW]

You could always just go the Gruul way and *gasp* not play Ash Zealot. Sub in Gore-House Chainwalker instead so you aren't worried about Garden + Clifftop hands as much. Granted, you can't play any of your red one drops on turn one from that kind of hand.

I wouldn't mind missing Ash Zealot if it was worth it otherwise, but Temple Garden would really throw a wrench in the gears.

It would be a little worse here
in a deck running 12-16 one drops, but in Gruul sligh running 18 lands I honestly can't remember the last time I had a Garden + Crag hand. The odds of this occuring if running one Garden are so ridiculously low that the benefits of running an extra white source far outweigh the risks.

Without running the numbers, I can't affirm or deny this claim. But, if you open a 2-lander, the probability that it's unkeepable is (5/18*4/17=6.5%). I just think the extra white ISN'T worth it.

[Valdarith]

You could always just go the Gruul way and *gasp* not play Ash Zealot. Sub in Gore-House Chainwalker instead so you aren't worried about Garden + Clifftop hands as much. Granted, you can't play any of your red one drops on turn one from that kind of hand.

I wouldn't
mind missing Ash Zealot if it was worth it otherwise, but Temple Garden would really throw a wrench in the gears.

It would be a little worse here in a deck running 12-16 one drops, but in Gruul sligh running 18 lands I honestly can't remember the last time I had a Garden + Crag hand. The odds of this occuring if running one Garden are so ridiculously low that the benefits of running an extra white source far outweigh the risks.

Without running the numbers, I can't affirm or deny this claim. But, if you open a 2-lander, the probability that it's unkeepable is (5/18*4/17=6.5%). I just think the extra white ISN'T worth it.

I can prove mathematically that it IS worth it.

On 18 lands, we have a 33% chance of drawing a hand with exactly two lands. If we run no Temple Garden, we have a 6.32% chance of seeing an unplayable two-land hand, or 33.7% * 6.32% = 2.13% across all 7-card hands. Running one Temple Garden, this chance increases to 9.92%
across two-land hands, or 33.7% * 9.92% = 3.34% across all 7-card hands. That is a 1.21% increased chance of an unkeepable hand due to playing one Temple Garden.

Now, let us examine the likelihood of obtaining a hand with one white source with and without the Temple Garden.

With: 70.02%
Without: 65.36%
Difference: 4.66%

For shits and giggles, let's expand that to seeing 9 cards (the earliest we'd want to cast Rally the Peasants).

With: 79.42%
Without: 75.11%
Difference: 4.31%

So we're trading off a 1.21% decrease in the number of keepable 7-card hands for a 4.66% increase in the number of hands where we see a white source. That's a highly favorable tradeoff.

[RDW]

Thank you; I'm a math guy and am certainly capable of running the numbers, I'm just at work ATM. I'll have to reevaluate these numbers when I have more free time, but some food for thought: the lost percentage points in the land-count effectively mulligan us (definitely weakening our hand), whereas the ones gained the other way may not affect having blanks (may never draw a white spell).... Hmmm.

[Valdarith]

the lost percentage points in the land-count effectively mulligan us (definitely weakening our hand), whereas the ones gained the other way may not affect having blanks (may never draw a white spell).... Hmmm.

Yes, it's definitely more complicated than that if you really think about it, but that analysis takes far too long for me to want to get in to. I'm personally still fond of the mono red list and feel like a white splash is a trap.

[RDW]

the lost percentage points in the land-count effectively mulligan us (definitely weakening our hand), whereas the ones gained the other way may not affect having blanks (may never draw a white spell).... Hmmm.

Yes, it's definitely more complicated than that if you really think about it, but that analysis takes far too long for me to want to get in to. I'm personally still fond of the mono red list and feel like a white splash is a trap.

Let's unite under that paradigm, then; because I'm a fan of the mono-R version too. I was simply arguing that if we were to go into
white, then we simply want the 8 duals and to be greedy; this is already an outrageously greedy kinda' deck.

[conejo]

So Irecently put together low curve 4x dynacharge list to test with. I let a friend borrow it(total newb btw) And HE 4-0s!!!! at his first FNM!!!!!!! WTF I watched him play every match. Even had to call his ash trigger against a Lsouls. he beat junkticrats with a full board out. Hexproof just wasnt fast enough and The naya deck he played last couldnt stick a creature. I could go into more detail but ill keep it short.

And To think that i just rebuilt Zs Goodstuffz 4 hounds build thinking it would be better for Junkticrats!

[zemanjaski]

I have some ideas for small improvements, will expand on this in the near future, but for now I need to re-watch the Mugiwara Pirates vs Cipher Pol 9 episodes again.

[RDW]

What percentage of 1, 2, 3, and 4 land hands are keepable? I can use this information to come up with the right number of lands. Really want to fine-tune this deck to work like a machine.

[rcwraspy]

What percentage of 1, 2, 3, and 4 land hands are keepable? I can use this information to come up with the right number of lands. Really want to fine-tune this deck to work like a machine.

Instead of basing it on keepable hands, wouldn't you rather want to base it on the cards you want to hit on curve and what's necessary to do so?

[RDW]

As I said, we have a shit ton of one drops, a boat load of two drops, and some buffs to fill in the rest. I contest that the most-important factor in mulligan decisions will depend almost-entirely on land count.

[Calamity]

What kinda boards are you guys running? I'm using zeman's list with a board of:


[deck]SB[/deck]

[Alex]

[deck]Get in the red zone[/deck]

This is what I'm going to purchase on MODO. I like the deck this way quite a bit, the only exception being that I might play Pillar of Flame/Mugging instead of Searing Spear just to keep the CMC symmetrical postboard for games that I'm on the draw. Boarding out Stromkirk Noble, which is 1CMC into a 2CMC card seems awkward, especially with such a low mana count.

Skinbrand Goblin seems pretty
sweet too, I have liked him better than the Cacklers I removed to make room. Combat tricks are pretty good in this deck and he's just fine as a dude, too. Rubblebelt Maaka is good but too expensive as a creature, where Skinbrand can be a trick OR a creature. He's just a consistently good card in the list so far. I might play a third, cutting my third Pyreheart Wolf, which while being good just seems to sit in my hand a little more often than I'd like.

Also the synergy with Foundry Street Denizen and [card]Krenko's Command[/card] has been incredibly good for me. In general I just like [card]Krenko's Command[/card] more than Gore-House Chainwalker because (as I'm sure many of you guys know by now) I really hate Unleash as a mechanic.

[rcwraspy]

Alex, that list looks INCREDIBLY explosive. I really like the synergy you've created around what looks like 2 specific cards - Denizen and BTE. Almost everything in the deck interacts perfectly with either or both of those.

House-cleaning - you have Dynacharge listed under spells and creatures, though your overall counts are still correct.

I like the inclusion of Skinbrand - something I don't think many folks have thought about. He's still 2 power for 2, or a decent bloodrush trick. And again it synergizes very well with what you're building around - Denizen and BTE.

[Valdarith]

[deck]Get in the red zone[/deck]

This is what I'm going to purchase on MODO. I like the deck this way quite a bit, the only exception being that I might play Pillar of Flame/Mugging instead of Searing Spear just to keep the CMC symmetrical postboard for games that I'm on the draw.
Boarding out Stromkirk Noble, which is 1CMC into a 2CMC card seems awkward, especially with such a low mana count.

Skinbrand Goblin seems pretty sweet too, I have liked him better than the Cacklers I removed to make room. Combat tricks are pretty good in this deck and he's just fine as a dude, too. Rubblebelt Maaka is good but too expensive as a creature, where Skinbrand can be a trick OR a creature. He's just a consistently good card in the list so far. I might play a third, cutting my third Pyreheart Wolf, which while being good just seems to sit in my hand a little more often than I'd like.

Also the synergy with Foundry Street Denizen and [card]Krenko's Command[/card] has been incredibly good for me. In general I just like [card]Krenko's Command[/card] more than Gore-House Chainwalker because (
as I'm sure many of you guys know by now) I really hate Unleash as a mechanic.

I may give this list a shot when I have time.

Agreed on Skinbrand Goblin vs Rubblebelt Maaka. Also agtree on Pyreheart Wolf. Going to two is likely correct.

I've been playing Denizen in my greedy 18-land red lists for awhile now and love him. He's basically Cacklers 5-8 except he can lead to even stronger openings.

[Alex]

My mana is pretty greedy too but so far I haven't had a huge issue in the games I've played with it. If the variance gods turn against me too often I'll probably just remove another Cackler for a Mountain, because I hate Cackler.

House-cleaning - you have Dynacharge listed under spells and creatures, though your overall counts are still correct.

Oops. Fixed now.

[Valdarith]

My mana is pretty greedy too but so far I haven't had a huge issue in the games I've played with it. If the variance gods turn against me too often I'll probably just remove another Cackler for a Mountain, because I hate Cackler.

House-cleaning - you have Dynacharge listed under spells and creatures, though your overall counts are still correct.

Oops. Fixed now.

I was also debating whether we wanted an 18th Mountain or not. It depends on whether you are ever comfortable with keeping a one-land hand. I'd need to be on the draw and have a lot of one drops in my hand, which this deck does have a lot of, but more often than not, keeping a one-lander comes back to bite me since you
have so few lands to draw into.

[Alex]

The deck is a true test of skill in that regard. You have to really consider everything when you keep those seven card one landers, because if that second land never comes you can find yourself very deep under water. It's almost never correct to keep a one lander at seven unless you have a very specific hand, but it's also practically always wrong to keep a three lander.

It's a tough spot to be in but when it comes down to it, you can mulligan decently since this version of the deck has a lot of tiny synergies that creep a little extra value into your cards.