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Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:51 pm
by Yarpus
Fuck deck. I don't give a shit. More about the Primer and person behind it.
Casting Assemble the Legion against aggro generates no board presence. Card is dead against them. That is why I'm using it in SB - and I believe you should as well.
Reckoners are loosing their value as lots of high-quality black removal will be played. Black removal renders him into slow and bad 3/3 creature that doesn't do anything and isn't even threatening. Ember Swallower at least can block midranges all day and night.
Elspeth is just crap for this kind of deck. Enjoy tapping out for 6 mana to put 3 1/1 tokens. My creatures die to her -3. So basically, I'm playing pretty bad token generator.
I disagree that Assemble is dead against aggro. The tokens eat X/1's and can chump larger threats or group up. If you need a top deck sweeper, then you're right it is ineffective, but so is most
spot removal.

Reckoner is still a solid 3/3 for 3. I'm not sure why you think that is slow, he comes out a turn earlier and dies to the same removal as Ember Swallower in black. The only exception is Reckoner isn't vulenerable to ultimate price.

Elsepth is inevitability. She makes an army each turn. She isn't fast, but she wins games by herself. Also, dude, you run 8 creatures. That's it. That's hardly a nonbo with Elspeth.
Okay, what happens when you tap 5 mana against Aggro and do literally nothing?
Reckoner dies to my own Anger of the Gods.
Elspeth is inevitability on 6 mana and I'd rather just play Assemble. Why Assemble is SB card? You can see above.
In response to Assemble the Legion question ~
9/10, win.
In response to Anger of the Gods ~
He also has the ability to either 2-1 opposing attackers or to stymie any attack they may make. You don't always have anger on hand when you
need it, reckoner buys you time to dig for it.
In response to Elspeth ~
Your logic above is terrible.
Not even an argument. It's just "it's good because I say so".
And no offence, but it's hard to consider you as 'source of reliable information'.
Enjoy your decklist. See how fast you will die to Mono Red or Gruul.
Not even an argument. It's just "it's good because I say so".
And no offence, but it's hard to consider you as 'source of reliable information'.
Enjoy your decklist. See how fast you will die to Mono Red or Gruul.
Whatever, you win. You're apparently great deck builder. Can't fight the arguments on that high level, plebs doesn't understand the power of "9/10, win." arguments without nothing to prove them.
Go convert all the people to play ****ty decks, it's gonna be easier to get free wins. Preach the word
about casting 5-mana spell to generate one 1/1 token against aggro. I'll enjoy this.

EDIT:
Oh, sorry. No tokens first turn.
I hope you can pair up posts and people writing them.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:54 pm
by LP, of the Fires
If I tell an asshole the sky is blue and he keeps telling me it's brown, I'll call him a dumbass. If he also tells me that undercooked chicken will kill you, I'm gonna agree...because that shit will kill you.

I generally don't argue for arguments sake when I genuinely agree with something someone is saying.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:57 pm
by redthirst
Yeah, I get that you don't like the guy/gal/whatever and that their logic is certainly flawed in some regards, but that's no reason to dismiss every single thing they say.

Hell, even Larry and Kamahl make decent points every now and then.

Yo Alex, getting about time to clean out the Standard forums isn't it?

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:58 pm
by Yarpus
If I'd tell him I'm dumbass - I'd be banned as my dumbass usually involves short stories about feces.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:59 pm
by DroppinSuga
I'd like to see Yarpy get banned over at Sally. I'm sure it would be one helluva show.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:01 pm
by Kazekirimaru
Yarpus is becoming quite the firecracker.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:02 pm
by redthirst
All that hate-fuel.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:36 pm
by LP, of the Fires
So I'm thinking Jund is going to be an amazing deck. I just had the revelation that the Hammer is the perfect card in Jund because you really DO want to give all your fat guys haste:

[deck]
Theros Jund
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Polis Crusher
3 Polukranos
2 Hound of Cerberus

1 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Hammer of Purphuros
1 Whip of Erberus

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy

4 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Dreadbore
2 Read the Bones

2 Xenagos, The Revealer

Jund lands(manabase is fine)

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Duress
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Underworld Connections
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Pharika's Cure
3 Anger the Gods
1 Fade into Antiquity
[/deck]

I'll probably post this in the developing section of the forums sooner or later. The sideboard is obviously subject to change, but I'd probably be happy with it going into a tourney tomorrow as all the cards are
powerful and/or high impact and the narrowest one(fade into antiquity) is still perfect at what it does(answer gods). The question being if that's worth doing which it probably isn't but overall, I really like this deck a lot.

Fixed the deck formatting
-photodyer

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:38 pm
by Alex
Yo Alex, getting about time to clean out the Standard forums isn't it?
Waiting to pull the trigger until actual release. I still have two FNMs left with Innistrad, personally.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:42 pm
by redthirst
Your call, but it seems to me like everyone's in "new brew" mode so the forums aren't going to get a whole lot of action without allowing post rotation discussion.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I have no intention of investing any amount of time to further optimize a deck that's going to be rotating in two weeks.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:43 pm
by Alex
It's more for the sake of the reader than the sake of the poster at this point.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:46 pm
by LP, of the Fires
I think I'm with thirst. Standard's in that lame duck period and the competitive section of standard is basically just clutter at this point since nobody gives a shit.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:51 pm
by Alex
I think I'm with thirst. Standard's in that lame duck period and the competitive section of standard is basically just clutter at this point since nobody gives a shit.
Here's a proposition: Post Theros decklist threads in the main forum for now. It'll make it easier for me to sort them once the meta starts to shake apart into competitive and non-competitive lists.

Old decks can stay where they are for now, I'll move them on Friday. (Since most people won't be playing Standard next Friday.)

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:58 pm
by Link
I'll be hellridering the SHIT out of people next friday

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:10 pm
by redthirst
So if anyone is interested in playing Ember Swallower post-rotation, I just picked up a set off eBay for less than $1.50 shipped. Considering that it actually looks pretty playable compared to what else we have at that mana cost I think that's a pretty safe buy.

And if I'm wrong, you wasted less than $2.00, so who cares?

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:11 pm
by Link
On a smaller scale, I've always liked the Keyrunes and see them as reliable sources of mana and board presence. They also count towards devotion when activated
Uhmm.... isn't this just blatantly lie?

Wtf to the pay these people

Ninja: I got my for $1 free shipping ;D


Oh wait

I got 8 of them because yeah definite speculation deal there

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:12 pm
by DroppinSuga
You and your eBay account can shove it in one of the new guy's mouth.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:22 pm
by Platypus
Does anyone see any reason for more than two Hammers in a deck? I'm trying to figure out a bare minimum pre-order bunch...

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:25 pm
by Alex
Does anyone see any reason for more than two Hammers in a deck? I'm trying to figure out a bare minimum pre-order bunch...
You might as well preorder the full 4, worse case scenario they shoot up in price and you now have 2 extras as trade fodder.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:25 pm
by Yarpus
I got bored, started to write down Kuroda Boros Primer (even while Zem deserves more to be one writing it... I mean, I'm probably not gonna be able to play it due to price tag of cards involved). Here's the taste of sweet poison.

Kuroda Boros Primer

INTRODUCTION
Let's start a bit of history. Once upon a time, there was a PTQ with Block Constructed tournament in Kobe. Block Constructed is often neglected as a format, but it wasn't usual Block Constructed. Old Mirrodin was probably one of the most complete and synergistic blocks ever printed. Decklist played during that time in Standard often involved mostly cards from Mirrodin, so even while card pool was not that deep - it created many powerhouse decks like variety of affinity decks, Tooth and Nail and what mostly interests us at the moment - Kuroda Red.

Kuroda Red is still considered to be the most
ideal Big Red deck in the history. Even while you read a writup about this part of colour pie done by Wizards, they often mention it as amazing deck. Take a look at the old decklist, shall we?

[deck]Creatures:
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Arc-Slogger

Other Spells:
4 Electrostatic Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Barbed Lightning
4 Damping Matrix
4 Pulse of the Forge
4 Fireball
4 Detonate

Lands:
16 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Blinkmoth Nexus

Sideboard:
4 Molten Rain
4 Echoing Ruin
2 Talisman of Indulgence
2 Talisman of Impulse
3 Furnace Dragon[/deck]

There are very few cards that could really use an replacement due to limitation of card pool - Fireball is pretty low in terms of power-level. Besides of that, we're talking about real beauty. Deck doesn't sport that many winning conditions in theory - there are only 8 creatures and half of them are Solemn Simulacra. But between Arc-Sloggers who are fatties that can block stuff all day (the biggest, playable creature in Mirrodin block was
actually Molder Slug!), Blinkmoth Nexuses and all the burn spells - it was fairly easy to get your opponent to 0 life.

This deck was one hell of a nasty beast. We all know that already as Kuroda easily won the whole PTQ and was remembered as "the Big Red guy". But why we are talking about that?

As an idea of Big Red never dies.

RTR-M14-THE gave us access to very interesting card pool that looks very familiar to what Kuroda played. Red is not the worst colour of the pie. It actually got some really fine tools. Access to easy splashes and powerfull, duo-coloured Scrylands can be turned into something we might call neo Kuroda deck.

Boros offers us the best tools at the moment. Scrylands, Warleader's Helix, Chained to the Rocks, Wear // Tear. That is why I will mostly focus on that splash during my writeup.

Decklist I will show in a moment should not be considered as final list of an actual deck. It serves mostly for discussion, and as a shell that can be expanded with your deckbuilding
skills, knowledge and passion you have for Red colour.

[deck]NeoKuroda Boros

Creatures (8):
4 Ember Swallower
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers (4):
4 Chandra, Pyromaster

Other Spells (22):
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Anger of the Gods

Lands (26):
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
14 Mountain

Sideboard (14):
4 Peak Eruption
4 Burning Earth
4 Assemble the Legion
2 Anger of the Gods[/deck]

So, this is the new face of Big Red for current Standard. Now I will do my best to talk about all the Strenghts and Weaknesses of the build and together with you - I'll do my best to make mr. Kuroda proud of us.

SPECIFIC CARD CHOICES

Creatures
[card]Ember Swallower:[/card] also known as (m)Ember Swallower. Even while he doesn't look impressive - he's the workhorse of the whole decklist. His huge body (especially when compared to
other Red and White creatures) makes him a brick wall against any kind of Aggro and Midrange - he's one of the very few creatures in the format that can effectively block Loxodon Smiter/Blood Baron of Vizkopya and tell the tale about that after. He also survives any, currently playable burn spell - even Mizzium Mortars and Warleader's Helix. Last but not least - he can still crash in for 4.
His Monstrosity makes most of discussions about him turn into wrong direction. Even while the ability on it's own is pretty cute and has some synergy with the rest of deck - we are playing him mostly because of his unusual size.

[card]Stormbreath Dragon:[/card] it's currently the biggest, playable Red creature. Even while his power-level is significantly lower than the one of Thundermaw Hellkite, this card still poses a threat to many decks. He has Haste and Evasion, his protection from White makes him immune to lots of removal (Chained to the Rocks, Detention Sphere, Azorius Charm, Warleader's
Helix, Angel of Serenity) and if you have excessive mana - one day you will even make him Monstrous and deal tons of damage.

Planeswalkers
[card]Chandra, Pyromaster:[/card] card is so good it's played in Eternal formats - so why shouldn't we use her as well. Her +1 is not the hottest thing in the world, but can win games. Opponent has that last, annoying blocker? Ping for 1, make him unable to block. Easy. What breaks Chandra is her capability of generating Card Advantage. Her 0 ability allows you to draw 2 cards per turn. And you know what happens when you let Red deck full of good beaters and burn draw 2 cards per turn? Madness. Her ultimate even while doesn't look impressive - can win prolonged games. Even while deck was not designed to rely on it too often: with a bit of luck you can find Warleader's Helix and cast it 3 times to have that 12 damage/12 lifegain.

Burn/Removal Spells
[card]Chained to the Rocks:[/card:
2vb0jc5o] for most of spoiler time, very underestimated card. 1CMC Journey to Nowhere with requirement of having an actual Mountain on the field. It has as many upsides as downsides. It's unconditional removal as long as we're able to cast it. You see some scary creature? Poof, gone. It can be indestructible or have 99 toughness - you just don't care about it. So what's the problem? If enchantment-hate becomes prevalent, it'll slowly get worse and worse. I doubt we will actually ever cross the critical mass of enchantments to consider siding in enchantment removal against us as "good idea" - but hey, everything can happen. It also requires both White mana and Mountain/Sacred Foundry, but nobody who tested the card ever mentioned it's an issue. And pfff, it dies to Peak Eruption.

[card]Lightning Strike:[/card] classic 2CMC 3-damage burn. Great as removal (there's still plenty of targets with 3 toughness) and for burning someone's face. Planeswalkers these days have a bit
more Loyality than they used to be - but it also can be used to reduce the time of stay for cards like Xenagos or Ashiok on the field.

[card]Magma Jet:[/card] another card that sees a lot of play even in Eternal formats. It deals 2 damage which is usually relevant against aggro decks (against Control, just aim at your opponent and say "BANG") but what's mostly important - it fixes your draws thanks to Scry 2. Scry is powerfull mechanic, and while playing 26-lands deck, it's gonna be often used to filter all the lands you need or don't need. Consider siding MJ out when playing against control though, as it's low-impact burn spell.

[card]Mizzium Mortars:[/card] removal/sweeper, all in one. It was proved many times, but scalable cards are usually awesome. This bad boy is no exception from that. You can use it during early game as removal. It hits lots of relevant targets. Smiters, Blood Barons, Archangels of Thune, Stormbreath Dragons. Or make that T1
Firedrinker Satyr feel like a terrible idea by hitting both him and his owner for 4. Ouch.
After hitting your 6th land drop, Mizzium Mortars become a sweeper. One-sided sweeper. That's all we need to say to sell you that card.

[card]Anger of the Gods:[/card] new card straight from Theros. "New" Slagstorm. You pay 3 mana, you deal 3 damage to every creature on the field. That's your main line of defense against most of Aggro and Midrange decks. Trading 3-for-1 is really, really backbreaking for decks without capability of generating CA. As long as they just play their whole hand (#BasedBTE) during turns 2-3, you sweep everything. What also matters is fact that it exiles creatures it puts into GY. It starts to become relevant whenever you face Chandra's Phoenix, Scavenging Ooze or Dreg Mangler. What's another advantage of the card? Due to toughness of creatures we play - it's one sided (unless there's Boros Reckoner somewhere...).

[b:
2vb0jc5o]Lands[/b]

Temple of Triumph
This card is just bonkers. Together with Magma Jet it gives you huge library control. Red decks allowed to control their library are strong and happy decks. Just try to squeeze it during turns when you don't do much. I like it as T1 play (I have literally no T1 plays) or T3 (leaving mana for Strike/Jet/Mortar).

Mutavault
Another strong reprint. The best manland ever printed comes back to kick some asses. Our deck has pretty big issue of working on small amount of threats. Mutavault solves that problem by providing us decent beater who dodges all kind of sorcery-speed removal. Sweep the board, pay (1), go for 2 damage. Simple as that.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:28 pm
by redthirst
Does anyone see any reason for more than two Hammers in a deck? I'm trying to figure out a bare minimum pre-order bunch...
I wouldn't ever play more than two.

Now to read Yarpus's post.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:36 pm
by Platypus
Does anyone see any reason for more than two Hammers in a deck? I'm trying to figure out a bare minimum pre-order bunch...
I wouldn't ever play more than two.
I'm starting to think the same. I had three in some early brews, but looking at all the other deck ideas being posted, I think two should be enough. Four is right out, that's for sure.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:39 pm
by Khaospawn
Must. Acquire. Promo. Member Swallowers.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:41 pm
by hamfactorial

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:42 pm
by DroppinSuga

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:51 pm
by hamfactorial
Member Swallower is this season's Double Dick Wurm.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:54 pm
by Yarpus
- Murder investigation on Awaken the ancients with purphorous in play, attack then -3 on elspeth = nice.
Oh god.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:00 pm
by Khaospawn
Member Swallower is this season's Double Dick Wurm.
I, for one, welcome our new member swallowing overlords.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:08 pm
by LP, of the Fires
I'd like to note that Stormbreath dragon if ever it's cheap is probably a decent pickup since it dodges the two most prevalent removal spells in modern(path/bolt) making it probably better then Thundermaw hellkite, a card that has definitely seen modern play.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:13 pm
by hamfactorial
Agreed on both counts, it's a solid finisher for a control deck running red. Most games don't go much past turn 5, but it would be pretty saucy in a grindy deck.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:14 pm
by Yarpus
I do like to note, that everything seems expensive as fuck these days.
Let's take Kuroda Boros. Chandras, Mutavaults, Sacred Foundries, Mortars alone are over 100$.
Shit. Fuck. Shit.
I guess I'll slowly collect cards for RB. Maybe I'll manage before Born to Gods will get legal. <laugh>

Some cards that should be considered for the big Boros.
1. Aurelia's Fury: it's not the best card ever printed as some people believed. But it's a big spell. Flexxible Fireball with upsides can be playable, even while costing 1 mana more.
2. Hammer of Purphoros: enables using other dragons than Stormbreath (Scourge of Valkas anyone?). Turns your lands into 3/3 creatures - it's another wincon.
3. ... Awaken the Ancient: doesn't die to burn. Is big and stupid. Doesn't have evasion, but we mostly burn stuff or forbid blocking with Chandra. Dies with our land. SO WHAT.
4. Boros Cluestone: ramp with possibility of saccing it
later for another card. I have to admit that I like it a lot, but I'm not sure if we can afford playing it.
5. Renounce the Guild: SB. It deals with multicoloured creatures and planeswalkers - if any of them become specifically relevant.
6. Glare of Heresy: SB. Deals with Detention Sphere, Elspeth, Angel of Serenity, any stupid white creature.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:16 pm
by hamfactorial
Is the exchange rate favorable to you? MTGO is less expensive if you don't need to physically touch the cards.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:25 pm
by zemanjaski
Maybe something like:

4 Ember Swallower
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Stormbreath Dragon

3 Chandra, Pyromaster

2 Hammer of Purphorous

3 Anger of the Gods
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Shock

21 Mountain
4 Mutavault

Almost feels like it wants a 26th mana though.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:31 pm
by Yarpus
I was trying out 24 mana, and deck was choking pretty hard. 25-26 is optimal.
I like Frostburn Weird in this kind of decks. I don't like it being Mono though, Scrylands and Chained to Rocks were crucial during testings.
Don't worry, I have budget decks to play. It's just sad that I love the deck but I can't play it.
Chandra costs 15 bucks on Modo already. And yes, I was talking about Modo prices.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:31 pm
by LP, of the Fires
Just go 2 muta, 2 nykthos.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:32 pm
by Yarpus
Fuck Nykthos. It doesn't work in deck without that many pernaments.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:40 pm
by LP, of the Fires
Just noticed he wasn't playing reckoner.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:42 pm
by Yarpus
Yep. Fuck Reckoner, Fuck Nykthos, Fuck the World. Gruul Deck Wins it is.

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:47 pm
by redthirst
Did you catch Alex's homo rage?

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:51 pm
by Yarpus
More like Red Shadenfreude.
Ugh, sorry. Gonna sleep for few hours to watch LoL World's. I'm a bit too cranky.