[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:30 am

The way I imagine it is as an aggro deck (it has all the key elements), which can then follow up with a CA engine or manlands or burn to finish; think BR Vamps from Zen, ~ 24 creatures, ~ 24 land, removal plus dark tutelage for reach.

Does that make sense? If the initial rush doesn't work, the deck should have a pretty robust end game; I think you need the extra land to support spell + activate vault or casting two spells with Chandra in play.

Maybe 23 land, + 1 spell or CA engine?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:35 am

I like the Hammer a lot, it makes my 24 non-haste creatures much better top decks, as well as Mutavault or any other land.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:38 am

Fucking facebook. Just saw the one who got away's wedding pictures because our mutual friend liked them. Nothing like that to ruin your day. Maybe I'll spend the PTQ money on some booze. That sounds like a plan.

Facebook really is an evil invention. Feels bad man.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:41 am

I'm not above cutting Foundry Street for Reckoner, not above that at all.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:41 am

I like the Hammer a lot, it makes my 24 non-haste creatures much better top decks, as well as Mutavault or any other land.

What about this:

[deck]Creatures (25)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Fanatic of Mogis

Spells (12)
2 Hammer of Purphorous
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Lands (23)
19 Mountain
4 Mutavault[/deck]

Would be very interested in testing this. Chandra's in the sideboard.

Hammer > T4 Fanatic > Take 7, swing 10 sounds awesome.

EDIT: Don't know why, but I can't fix the formatting. Sorry for the eye-sore.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:49 am

Yeah I don't mind that either.

The shell of:
~ 24 creatures
~ 24 land
~ 8 removal

With manlands and CA engines is a proven formula and I'm interested in exploring if its playable again.

For reference, I'm referring to:

BR Vamps (this Gerry Thompson's list, but similar versions within a few cards had very strong showings at GPs and SCGs)

7 Swamp
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Tectonic Edge

25 CREATURES
4 Bloodghast
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Pulse Tracker
4 Kalastria Highborn
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Viscera Seer
2 Vampire Hexmage

8 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Arc Trail
2 Staggershock

3 OTHER SPELLS
3 Dark Tutelage

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:50 am

Those lists both look good. Is there a reason not to play Fanatic and Chandra in the same deck though? Especially with 24 land?

EDIT: Thanks for that reference Z, good stuff. JS, gotcha. She seems too good not to play in some capacity.

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:52 am

Hey, dpaine's back

Calamity · Postby **Calamity** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:53 am

Reposting this:
[deck]Creatures: 28
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firefist Striker
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
Spells: 10
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Hammer of Purphoros
Lands: 22
2 Mutavault
20 Mountain

SB: 4 Chandra, Pyromaster
SB: 2 Mutavault
SB: 4 Mizzium Mortars
SB: 3 Flames of the Firebrand
SB: 2 Wild Guess[/deck]

First draft of what I'm testing. Game 1 is aggro (but not all in), game 2 you can board into midrange or just switch around the burn or just add chandra.

for transformational SB right now it's:
Out:
-8 1 drops
-4 BTE
-3 GHC
In:
Everything

Here's my Boros midrange first draft too:

[deck]
Creatures: 16
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Fanatic of Mogis
Spells: 21
4 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Boros Charm
4 Shock
nLands: 23
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
11 Mountain
4 Plains
SB: 4 Chained to the Rocks
SB: 4 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Warleader's Helix
SB: 3 Boros Reckoner
SB: 2 Anger of the Gods
[/deck]

Most questionable card in the Boros list is probably shock. Fanatic of Mogis closes out games fuckin' QUICK, especially with the hammer.

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:03 am

How have they tested? They both seem really sweet, and I'd be more than happy to play with either if it's competitive.

Calamity · Postby **Calamity** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:07 am

The boros list seems to do well vs. aggro, and the mono red list plays pretty similar to how mono red played pre GTC last season. Fanatic of Mogis seems pretty insane so far.

Haven't really prepared for control at all, since all the builds people are playing now are awful and have terrible mana lol

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:12 am

how mono red played pre GTC last season

That's all I want

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:12 am

Fanatic is insane hey? Ill have to test it. Thanks.

Calamity · Postby **Calamity** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:19 am

Yeah often times when he comes down he hits for 4 or so with his ETB, and with a hammer of purphoros on the field...

I've also tried to make a Legion's Initiative deck work but haven't been able to get it quite yet. The enchantment just interacts so well with fanatic of mogis, viashino firstblade, minotaur skullcleaver, and foundry street denizen. It seems like it could have so many good interactions.

Kazekirimaru · Postby **Kazekirimaru** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:33 am

Bah. I need to get used to the fact that there's no such thing as ownership in my parents' house, apparently. If it exists, especially if it's food, I shouldn't expect it to be there when I look for it again...

Kazekirimaru · Postby **Kazekirimaru** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:33 am

Moving back home is a difficult adjustment.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:38 am

Agreed. Visiting the folks is always an interesting experience. Moving back must be crazy.

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:23 am

Moving back home is a difficult adjustment.

Yeah, when I came back to take care of my mom, I had to make it pretty clear to her that I was buying myself a fridge and a pantry for upstairs, and that I was going to keep my food up there so she couldn't get at it. (She's wheelchair bound, so GG.) At first she got pretty upset by this fact, but then I had to remind her that I'm a grown-ass adult and enjoy not only my privacy, but the fact that the things that I owned were not being tampered with.

She got over it eventually. I'd suggest getting a mini fridge and buying a lot of dried goods and just keeping them in your closet or something.

Kazekirimaru · Postby **Kazekirimaru** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:30 am

Moving back home is a difficult adjustment.
Yeah, when I came back to take care of my mom, I had to make it pretty clear to her that I was buying myself a fridge and a pantry for upstairs, and that I was going to keep my food up there so she couldn't get at it. (She's wheelchair bound, so GG.) At first she got pretty upset by this fact, but then I had to remind her that I'm a grown-ass adult and enjoy not only my privacy, but the fact that the things that I owned were not being tampered with.

She got over it eventually. I'd suggest getting a mini fridge and buying a lot of dried
goods and just keeping them in your closet or something.

This is a good fucking idea.

Looking online at mini fridges now.

Kazekirimaru · Postby **Kazekirimaru** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:32 am

Petty as it sounds, I was rather irate to see that my ~$80 tin of green tea was completely wiped out this evening. That just doesn't fly with me.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:35 am

Doesn't sound petty at all. You do not fuck with a man's tea.

[deck]
Creatures
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Goblin Guide
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders
3 Grim Lavamancer

Spells
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

Lands
19 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Detention Sphere
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Angel of Despair
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyrostatic Pillar[/deck]

3rd place at SCG; Burn's still got it. However, the deck is just wrong and it upsets me. Why 4 rift bolts + 4 lava spike and only 2 chain lightning? Sense, it does not make. Painted stone is the only deck that can make use of the ability, and it isn't super popular despite the recent splash. The Detention Spear in the side is cute.

Calamity · Postby **Calamity** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:57 am

As someone that doesn't play legacy burn: is it normal for burn in legacy to run that many creatures? Why not max out on chain lightning? Why no fetches so you can use searing blaze? Why are Angel of Despair and Dsphere in the board?

photodyer · Postby **photodyer** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:59 am

@Kaze - Walmart probably still has dorm-appropriate fridges still in-stock from the start of the school year; they always carry a couple or three different sizes/models at this time of year. The bigger "under-bar" size they generally carry year-round. Maybe not the highest quality options, but likely reasonably priced and of immediately available.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:08 am

As someone that doesn't play legacy burn: is it normal for burn in legacy to run that many creatures? Why not max out on chain lightning? Why no fetches so you can use searing blaze? Why are Angel of Despair and Dsphere in the board?

Nope, it isn't normal at all. Most lists only play Lavamancer and Guide. Why not max out on chain lighting? No idea. The lack of fetches was probably a budget choice on his part; I'm willing to bet the lack of chain lightning was the same. The life loss on fetches is almost entirely irrelevant, they don't exactly get hosed by Blood moon, and the fuel for lavamancer is absolutely huge, especially with 4 of them. Angel and Dsphere are for Show & Tell, though I don't know why he ran both. There's something I'm
missing there for sure.

Young Pyromancer, however, is the stone-cold nuts. I've been playing a blitz list with 17 lands, no spells over two, and 4 Pyromancer + 4 Gitaxian Probe. You lose to combo even more than you do already, because Pyromancer hands are a turn or two slower, but it gives you another angle against creature decks. As Grixis has been demonstrating, Pyromancer does a lot of work and is hard for most decks to deal with. Despite the relatively set nature of the format, there is a lot of room for innovation in mono red with the additions of Pyromaster & Pyromancer. Chandra clearly doesn't fit into the 19 land deck, but she has been an integral part of Painted Stone's success, and could probably spawn a new archetype of red altogether.

photodyer · Postby **photodyer** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:09 am

First proposed control lists are showing up on SCG...I'm not commenting on quality, but this is what's being fed to the masses:

U/W Control - Shaheen Soorani 9/16/2013

[deck]
Creatures (2)
2 Aetherling

Planeswalkers (4)
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Jace, Architect of Thought

Lands (26)
7 Island
6 Plains
4 Azorius Guildgate
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Mutavault

Spells (28)
2 Azorius Keyrune
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Detention Sphere
4 Azorius Charm
4 Celestial Flare
2 Dissolve
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Syncopate
1 Spear Of Heliod
4 Supreme Verdict
[/deck]

W/U/R Control - Shaheen Soorani 9/16/2013

[deck]
Creatures (2)
2 Aetherling

Planeswalkers (4)
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Jace, Architect of Thought

Lands (26)
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of
Triumph

Spells (28)
2 Prophetic Prism
2 Assemble the Legion
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Detention Sphere
4 Azorius Charm
2 Dissolve
2 Magma Jet
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Steam Augury
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Supreme Verdict
[/deck]

Soorani's comments:

"Now on to the decks! These two lists are beta runs, and I will be changing a card here and there for the next couple weeks. Not only will I keep you guys updated on Twitter, but my article in two weeks will have the updated lists after some playtesting and will be ready to go! I'm not quite sure about the sideboard configuration for either deck I'm posting, but I will get you that info either in two weeks in the next article or on Twitter before then. I've never been a big fan of putting together sideboards in a completely unknown metagame, so when I figure it out I'll be sure to share it with you guys. Thanks again for reading, and I hope you all are just as excited as I am for a new era of Standard!&
quot;

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:23 am

FWIW Shaheen Soorani is the best SCG player not on the pro tour and is probably better then half of there writers that are and he's had success with UW control forever. We call him the master of expensive sorceries.

Kazekirimaru · Postby **Kazekirimaru** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:31 am

@Kaze - Walmart probably still has dorm-appropriate fridges still in-stock from the start of the school year; they always carry a couple or three different sizes/models at this time of year. The bigger "under-bar" size they generally carry year-round. Maybe not the highest quality options, but likely reasonably priced and of immediately available.

Ah, I never would have thought of that. Most appreciated!

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:46 am

FWIW Shaheen Soorani is the best SCG player not on the pro tour and is probably better then half of there writers that are and he's had success with UW control forever. We call him the master of expensive sorceries.

It isn't worth much, since those decks look absolutely atrocious considering control thrives on knowing the environment that it's in. These decks fail at even the most basic starting point for building a control deck; knowing thy enemy.

Starcity will publish anything to preorder cards, we are all aware of that by this point. Nobody should take these articles as anything more than what they are; shameless whoring. Shaheen should be ashamed of himself. Unless he thinks he's actually so good that he can "brew" a control deck for a completely unknown meta, in which case he thinks he's a lot better than he is.

photodyer · Postby **photodyer** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:54 am

^^
Your points are exactly why I posted the lists, Alex...this is the crap that people will be net-decking. As you said--know thy enemy. I figure by keeping an eye to what is being presented by SCG/CFB/Gathering Magic and so forth, we should get an idea of what the majority of lazy people will be trying to play for the first few weeks (other than red, that is). Most of what I've seen promulgated thus far looks rather suspect, but it's worth knowing what is being sold to the public.

Yarpus · Postby **Yarpus** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:56 am

PEEEEEAAAAAAAAK ERUUUUUPTIOOOOOOOON

Kazekirimaru · Postby **Kazekirimaru** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:59 am

What four-color midrange monstrosities shall we see opening this season, I wonder?

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:02 am

^^
Your points are exactly why I posted the lists, Alex...this is the crap that people will be net-decking. As you said--know thy enemy. I figure by keeping an eye to what is being presented by SCG/CFB/Gathering Magic and so forth, we should get an idea of what the majority of lazy people will be trying to play for the first few weeks (other than red, that is). Most of what I've seen promulgated thus far looks rather suspect, but it's worth knowing what is being sold to the public.

I would like to think that most control players are smarter than that, or at the very least the ones that you should be afraid of are.

The thing about newly rotated formats is that every deck is basically shitty. I've never really considered mono red to be a "
great" deck, just the least shitty of the shitty decks in new formats. That being said, as time goes on and new cards are brought into the pool, almost every archetype SHOULD have its shot at glory, and when it does, control decks will be there to keep them in check.

The rookie mistake that a lot of bad control players make is thinking that they're ahead of the curve when they should be intentionally behind it.

Yarpus · Postby **Yarpus** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:12 am

I miss the Cawblade days. You weren't slapping cards one on each other and call it Control. That was really smart deck that punished bad playing.
I loved playing against it as it always forced me to play on 110% of my capability. It also resulted with very interesting development of my deck.
You could see a difference between bad Cawblader and good Cawblader in the first minutes of the match. Currently everyone thinks he can play control as apparently slamming Thragtusk onto field wasn't that difficult.
Well, I was proud to be control player back in the days - even while I was in opposition to CawCaw scourge.

Thanks Zem for capturing me with your take on Mono Red when I came back to MTG for INN-RTR standard. I got 'converted'.

Yarpus · Postby **Yarpus** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:18 am

Bitching on MTGSally again. Had a discussion with this guy and I asked him a question: What happens when you cast Assemble the Legion against Aggro on T5?

9/10, win.

I was trying to be nice. So I told him to preach the word amongst the other people so I can get free wins (against retards of his kind). 3 maindeck Purphoros, 4 maindeck Assemble the Legion, 4 maindeck Elspeths. Chained to the Rocks/Magma Jet/Lightning Strike as the only removal. No sweepers. I'm gonna enjoy this season.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:46 am

We all know that a card that forces you to Tapout and have no impact on the board turn 5 is a devastating play against an aggro's decks established board position.

And it makes a 1/1 the turn after????????

Fuck me that's OP. enchantments these days?????????!!!!!

Yarpus · Postby **Yarpus** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:51 am

Wizords pls.
I actually agree with him a bit that Elspeth can be a game - but I still don't see myself playing her. She's 6 mana planeswalker. And she's a bit stronger than Sorin Markov.
I was actually thinking that I could play Elspeth with some kind of ramping. Boros Cluestones?

EDIT:
-2 Mountain
-2 Anger of the Gods (MD)
+4 Boros Cluestone

I'm liking how deck works now. Ramping is always good, especially when you ramp into silly things.

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:52 am

Bitching on MTGSally again. Had a discussion with this guy and I asked him a question: What happens when you cast Assemble the Legion against Aggro on T5?

9/10, win.
I was trying to be nice. So I told him to preach the word amongst the other people so I can get free wins (against retards of his kind). 3 maindeck Purphoros, 4 maindeck Assemble the Legion, 4 maindeck Elspeths. Chained to the Rocks/Magma Jet/Lightning Strike as the only removal. No sweepers. I'm gonna enjoy this season.

Yep. Assemble the Legion is an anti-control card. Much like Planeswalkers, if control can't deal with it quickly, it tends to get out of hand. It has the distinct advantage of not being attackable, which makes it even harder for blue-
based control to deal with.

Morons on MTGS think because it makes dudes that it shits on aggro, because "chump blockers = LOL RED CREATURES SUX"

It gets more and more clear as time goes on why we absconded from the website.

Yarpus · Postby **Yarpus** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:01 am

Yep. Assemble the Legion is an anti-control card. Much like Planeswalkers, if control can't deal with it quickly, it tends to get out of hand. It has the distinct advantage of not being attackable, which makes it even harder for blue-based control to deal with.

That's the exact thing I told him. I'm still not sure if it deserves spot maindeck, it all depends on meta - but my plan was to use it mostly from SB instead of low-impact burn like Magma Jet.

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:09 am

This isn't really relevant to the topic at hand, but has there ever been a deck that played it mainboard? It's pretty bad when you're going in blind, but gets significantly better once you've assessed the matchup. I remember losing to it quite a few times while playing mono black, but I can't really remember if it was because UWR was playing it in the main or because my deck was simply bad. I even had Curse of Death's Hold in the board for the card, but I remember it being so fucking brutal every time I played against it. I can't imagine I wouldn't have accounted for it on multiple occasions while considering my sideboard options, especially considering it's basically an auto-scoop unless you can play a Curse immediately.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:13 am

I think some versions of Pillowfort used it as their kill condition; that's about it IIRC.

Dies to Removal

[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

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