[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

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Postby Jack » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:21 am

Did some testing. Here's an updated list. Needs to push damage all the time when you can.

[deck=OptiAggro?]
3 Dryad Militant
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firebreather Satyr
4 Soldier of the Partheon
4 Gore-house Chainwalker
4 Daring Skyjek
4 Truefire Paladin
3 Wojek Halberdiers

4 Boros Charm
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

4 Sacred Foundry
8 Mountain
6 Plains
[/deck]

Needs to swing away as much as possible. Needs some upgrades to possibly getting 4 power on each 2drop. Lots of drops get walled by Soldier which will probably be showing up in almost every deck that can run W.
I'd say that our future standard meta, while providing us with access to 16 2 power 1 drops, falls into the second category of decks. This means that you should
probably look into a few three drops. Truefire Paladin is the worst card in the deck, and will almost always be nothing more than a 2 power 2 drop when you have no cards that cost more mana than either of its abilities.
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Postby windstrider » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:54 am

The consistency was a big part of that Aggro optimization experiment. I think going to two colors would hurt that plan unless it was a very light splash for a power card.
Searing Seneschal of Salvation

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Cogito, ergo incendo.

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Postby Jack » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:05 am

Also, in that simulation, the lands and putrid leach would end up dealing you 8-14 damage in order for you to win on turn 4 or 5.
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Postby hamfactorial » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:10 am

Bro do you even leech?

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Postby DroppinSuga » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:14 am

Bro, I fucking lift like a champ.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:08 am

Playing in a limited PTQ on Monday... Advice?

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Postby TubeHunter » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:12 am

open like a pro
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Postby redthirst » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:14 am

Win it.

That's what I'd do.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

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Postby Valdarith » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:26 am

Playing in a limited PTQ on Monday... Advice?
Sealed or draft?

If sealed, good luck! If draft, everyone knows blue is the best color. You can decide to either use this to your advantage and go for other colors that will likely be wide open or decide to force blue anyway.
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Postby Helios » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:46 am

//beginBitchfit

Was required to attend a lecture by professor Michael Sandel of Harvard in which he engaged the students in debate. I had been on campus for 12 hours at that point, and still have work to do.

Instead of watching an intelligent professor lecture, I watched students, of the Honors College no less, make ad hominem arguments and drop fallacies like hot potatoes.

If they weren't paying me to be there, the righteous indignation would be palpable from miles away. Since they are paying me, I'll just bitch to you guys. Sorry.
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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:57 am

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost ... tcount=121

Am I wrong? Does this makes sense? I'm in a teaching mood.
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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:17 am

The big question is this:

Both Lightning Strike and Magma Jet are both about 1.5x as good as Shock, so which would you rather draw?
- in your opener?
- in a top deck?
- which would you sideboard out if removal were bad in a matchup?

The answers will vary in circumstances, so try to give complex responses!
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Postby Kazekirimaru » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:30 am

//beginBitchfit

Was required to attend a lecture by professor Michael Sandel of Harvard in which he engaged the students in debate. I had been on campus for 12 hours at that point, and still have work to do.

Instead of watching an intelligent professor lecture, I watched students, of the Honors College no less, make ad hominem arguments and drop fallacies like hot potatoes.

If they weren't paying me to be there, the righteous indignation would be palpable from miles away. Since they are paying me, I'll just bitch to you guys. Sorry.
//endBitchfit
/collegeproblems
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:34 am

Playing in a limited PTQ on Monday... Advice?
Sealed or draft?

If sealed, good luck! If draft, everyone knows blue is the best color. You can decide to either use this to your advantage and go for other colors that will likely be wide open or decide to force blue anyway.
M14 limited with top 8 draft.

Just opening good cards is a strategy thay has worked for me in the past. I'll try to stick with that.

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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:35 am

So, Modern:

Young Pyro
Demigod of Revenge
Purphorous
Lingering Souls
Liliana
Thoughtseize
Bolt
Helix
Terminate

Deck?
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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:36 am

Maybe Faithless Looting to pitch redundant PWs, Gods, Demigods.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:37 am

The big question is this:

Both Lightning Strike and Magma Jet are both about 1.5x as good as Shock, so which would you rather draw?
- in your opener?
- in a top deck?
- which would you sideboard out if removal were bad in a matchup?

The answers will vary in circumstances, so try to give complex responses!
I'm willing to play shock because I want as many answers to scavenving ooze as possible. I really hate that catd.

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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:38 am

Purphorous is probably a win-more even in that shell. What a douchebag.

Also, unburial rites.

Shock is often a shit answer to Ooze, unless you routinely play bad players.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:42 am

Playing in a limited PTQ on Monday... Advice?
When opening your pool(assuming m14 sealed, but this is mostly applicable to all sets), sort by color first. Note your manafixing if any, and your bombs.

Second, pull out all of your unplayable cards from each color. 2/1's that don't do anything fall into this category(if you're playing coral merfolk, your deck is either terrible, or has 4 fortify...and probably still terrible). Take out all the offensive aura's as well including troll hide, shiv's embrace, and mark of the vampire. They are not good in sealed since card advantage is king and getting 2-for-1'd is the easiest way to lose game.

After doing that, cut your two weakest colors. This is likely the easiest thing to do.

From
their, if you have a splashable bomb or removal spell in one of your cut colors(say double doom blade, or primeval bounty), look at the fixing you opened up and keep that in mind when building.

EX: you have decent Red and Blue, and less good but playable green, but your green includes lay of the land and verdant haven and you have a devout invocation and a pacifism you want to play, it's probably likely that green gives you the deck with the best shot of winning. Err on the side of the more powerful deck, not the synergestic deck.

Back to looking at the three colors you can play, build each deck to give you the best chance of playing the best deck. This also lets you see decks that you can possibly side into during matches. If you're playing a r/g midrange deck and you get blown out by your opponents bomb heavy deck, it's useful to know that you can board into the UR tempo deck with 2 cancels, essence scatter and negate to answer all their bullshit.

Play your bombs and play your removal. Even if
the blue is unplayable and the mana would be shaky, splash for Jace, Memory adept because he's the best bomb in the set. You resolve it you win.

Lastly, I don't care what your deck looks like, choose to draw EVERY TIME in M14 sealed. Even if you lose a game to your opponent curving out on the play, you still want to be on the draw every game because those extra cards add up and it's sealed so 8 out of the 200 people in the tourney are going to have a reasonable chance of curving out with there deck consistently and being a card closer to your game winning bombs and removal that answers there bullshit is much more likely to win you the game then hoping you go rootwalla into baloth into sporemound on the play.

I myself am going to a sealed PTQ this weekend and I have been practicing building decks :D
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby F.I.A » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:45 am

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost ... tcount=121

Am I wrong? Does this makes sense? I'm in a teaching mood.
I think I have to disagree. Right now, this coming standard will allow us to have up to three variants of cheap burn at instant speed compared to only Searing Spear in current standard. With Theros being about enchantments, I think I will just get myself playsets of all those the available three.
The big question is this:

Both Lightning Strike and Magma Jet are both about 1.5x as good as Shock, so which would you
rather draw?
- in your opener?
- in a top deck?
- which would you sideboard out if removal were bad in a matchup?

The answers will vary in circumstances, so try to give complex responses!
I think both of them are good as either opener and topdeck. Lightning Strike deals 1 extra damage, but Magma Jet will try to make sure you won't run out of gas.

As for sideboarding, I think I will take out Lightning Strike first before Magma Jet, but this will still depend on how the metagame will be (Will the next standard be chocked full or */3? It's really hard to tell right now).
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:53 am

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost ... tcount=121

Am I wrong? Does this makes sense? I'm in a teaching mood.
I think the shock thing is slightly overstated as I think lots of decks are in the market for 1 mana utility removal spells as curve fillers and to regain tempo(think UWR control if that's a deck since it would play a million tapped lands), but If I had to give the post a grade, A- for shit sure.

I was telling my friends this today: at the start of the format, play the most powerful consistent thing you can and punish unrefined lists that are trying to do too much. Remember Rakdos Zombies? Deck had an ugly manabase(albeit consistent enough), but it hit like a fucking freight train thus winning back to back GPs
and taking 3/4 finals slots(yay Tyler!). Same with Bant control. Both decks ceased to be things eventually, but they where much more powerful then everything else going on at the time and there results reflected that.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:57 am

The big question is this:

Both Lightning Strike and Magma Jet are both about 1.5x as good as Shock, so which would you rather draw?
- in your opener?
- in a top deck?
- which would you sideboard out if removal were bad in a matchup?

The answers will vary in circumstances, so try to give complex responses!
Unless I really need to deal 3 damage, I want magma jet 100% of the time. In the opener on the play, spear is technically better if you end up using it early in the game because you ideally want to hold magma jet till you have more information and know what you're digging to(assuming you're past curving out and are looking for answers/proper questions). It's very similar to thoughtseize in that manner. Scry just helps good players so
much that I would be tempted to play 8 magma jets if I could.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:59 am

I like Magma Jet post board because it lets you find your hopefully game winning SB cards.

Sooooo interesting. Going to be a good format I think.
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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:59 am

Great posts LP, you've drawn me out of my normal reluctance to 'thank'
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:10 am

Tryna keep it classy.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby F.I.A » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:10 am

It's unnerving how many are dissing the new Jackal pup over at mtgs. Like, they keep describing the worst scenario and some even suggested using Legion Loyalist, which is supposed to be a good post-wrath card. Don't they ever understand that a good red 1-drop is indefinitely better than other 1-drops, and therefore needs the drawback?
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Postby Alex » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:14 am

It's unnerving how many are dissing the new Jackal pup over at mtgs. Like, they keep describing the worst scenario and some even suggested using Legion Loyalist, which is supposed to be a good post-wrath card. Don't they ever understand that a good red 1-drop is indefinitely better than other 1-drops, and therefore needs the drawback?
Honestly the card isn't that impressive. It's not Vexing Devil levels of bad, but it's probably only playable due to the lack of more quality cards in that slot. It isn't unplayable trash, but I think if there were better alternatives we wouldn't even be giving this thing a second glance.

I don't think aggressive red is
where it's at regardless. Theros has very obviously lended itself nicely to playing the old 22-24 land Sledgehammer red lists more than aggressive 18 land Dynacharge decks.

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:16 am

Not gonna lie, I'm playing sligh.

Curving out is SOOO good.

But seriously, I'd be happy playing sligh or Kuroda Red.

Now, time to quite procrastinating and brew some blue decks...
Last edited by LP, of the Fires on Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Alex » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:17 am

Not gonna lie, I'm playing sligh.
What's the incentive, though? I'm not poking fun at you, I'm legitimately curious. I'm personally not seeing it at all.

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:18 am

The incentive? I actually hate stromkirk noble and in a vacuum would play any 2 power one drop over it all day.

That's literally it.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Alex » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:21 am

The incentive? I actually hate stromkirk noble and in a vacuum would play any 2 power one drop over it all day.

That's literally it.
Oh, I thought there was like, legitimately sound reasoning behind it. JK. :iiam:

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:30 am

Ok, actual arguments for what decks I would play week one of a format.

Hyper agro: The punishing factor. Your deck is consistent, does the same thing every game, and does it fast.

Some sort of blue control deck with red removal: You're usually playing on average more powerful cards then your opponent and red removal is almost never dead because it usually can go to the face. If you focusing on beating agro decks and have a powerful gameplan, you're golden. Plus you can blank your opponents removal.

Midrange: I generally avoid that shit like the plague. However, red midrange is different because you get burn and are generally still very aggressive. I like GR mid a lot along with mono-red mid. Plus Xenagos is the best card in the set.

Black decks: Normally, I'm not big on playing black weak one because a lot of your removal is conditional and you can suffer from drawing the wrong removal
spell at the wrong time. However, thoughtseize is a powerful magic card and a good player can wield that shit like a scalpel. If someone built a good thoughtseize deck, I'd probably play that over anything.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby TubeHunter » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:32 am

just dropped anger of the gods on a 4 humans with xathrid necromancer.... VALUE!!!!!!!!

Did you know I also had an ember swallower out? UUHHHHHH
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Postby F.I.A » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:33 am

It's unnerving how many are dissing the new Jackal pup over at mtgs. Like, they keep describing the worst scenario and some even suggested using Legion Loyalist, which is supposed to be a good post-wrath card. Don't they ever understand that a good red 1-drop is indefinitely better than other 1-drops, and therefore needs the drawback?
Honestly the card isn't that impressive. It's not Vexing Devil levels of bad, but it's probably only playable due to the lack of more quality cards in that slot. It isn'
t unplayable trash, but I think if there were better alternatives we wouldn't even be giving this thing a second glance.

I don't think aggressive red is where it's at regardless. Theros has very obviously lended itself nicely to playing the old 22-24 land Sledgehammer red lists more than aggressive 18 land Dynacharge decks.
True, it's not as good as stuff like Goblin Guide, but any 1-drop that can finish off a guy with 10 pokes is good in my book.

But I guess the point is that I'm disgusted by those who misinterpreted the card and their examples. Pumping the satyr by turn 2 is as good as a strategy of a kid who uses instants at sorcery speed.

It's good that we might get to have Big Red making a comeback, but I'm still a sligh/burn player myself. Guess I just love setting someone aflame within a few turns (Which usually ends up with them calling me a netdecker, even though I use stuff like [card]Wild
Guess[/card].)
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Postby Jack » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:36 am

The big question is this:

Both Lightning Strike and Magma Jet are both about 1.5x as good as Shock, so which would you rather draw?
- in your opener?
- in a top deck?
- which would you sideboard out if removal were bad in a matchup?

The answers will vary in circumstances, so try to give complex responses!
I'm willing to play shock because I want as many answers to scavenving ooze as possible. I really hate that catd.
If removal is bad in a matchup, I would side out Lightning Strike before Magma Jet because (and you already mentioned this) Magma
Jet helps you find the cards that you want. It's even good pre-board, as it still helps you dig through the cards that are either not relevant in the current boardstate or just underperformers in that matchup in general. While it may only do two damage as printed, it is sometimes good for more than that as printed, since it could help you increase your damage output when you scry away that sixth land for a Chandra, which could find you a Stormbreath Dragon.
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Postby Jack » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:40 am

You seem to really know your shit, LP. I really agree with all your main points in your last post.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:40 am

Attention clan Super Gay.

Lets test modern on trice.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

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LP, of the Fires
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:45 am

You seem to really know your shit, LP. I really agree with all your main points in your last post.
I'm kind of a big deal.

Or as Kibler would say, "Also, it helps support the argument that I'm a goddamn genius."
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Helios
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Postby Helios » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:46 am

The big question is this:

Both Lightning Strike and Magma Jet are both about 1.5x as good as Shock, so which would you rather draw?
- in your opener?
- in a top deck?
- which would you sideboard out if removal were bad in a matchup?

The answers will vary in circumstances, so try to give complex responses!
This isn't exactly a complex response, but....

Both. I can't fathom a (mono-red) deck where I wouldn't play both if the format is such that Magma Jet can kill creatures. Given both in a deck & removal being a bad matchup, Magma Jet would stay in. The information gained seems much stronger than the 1 additional point of damage.

As far as top-deck/opener, it really does depend on the matchup. G1 you know nothing, so I don't really
think the exact same hand with the only difference being jet/strike would make a difference. G2/3 is of course match-up dependent. If only x/3 removal is good in the matchup, I can see siding out Jet for Mortars. Otherwise I'd rather side out In topdeck mode, I'd almost always rather see jet unless there is an x/3 that just has to die.

Eh?

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Postby Helios » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:48 am

You seem to really know your shit, LP. I really agree with all your main points in your last post.
I'm kind of a big deal.

Or as Kibler would say, "Also, it helps support the argument that I'm a goddamn genius."
It does seem that way :smileup: Very good points in your post.


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