Dies to Removal

I'm willing to vote no lynch.

Be mindful that I've already stated that I'm willing to follow the Occam's Razor and consider you scum, as imopen claims having you as confirmed scum + myself having him as town.

I enjoy how both you and Imopen are mirroring the same flawed, logically corrupt arguments from one another, like chanting Occam's razor like it's some kind of decisive mantra, or as if it even applies here. You and Imopen both being scum running an endgame gambit is hardly some kind of convoluted, overly complicated theory, and Occam's razor flies right out the window when you're dealing with a game of deception, rather than a scientific inquiry based on empirical observation.

I don't see any logical reason for you to discard pre-emptively any explanation of what could have gone wrong with our inventions, you're just being overly confrontational because you're trapped in a corner.

Overly confrontational? You're spamming buzz words that don't even apply to anything I'm posting.

Imopen is just mindlessly chanting catchphrases like "listen to the cop" and "occam's razor" and hoping that people swallow them gullibly, and doing his best to argue people into vigging him for a 2nd time in a row, bc THAT's definitely going to end well.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to actually cooperate with my teammates, discuss all the gritty details of the situation, come up with a plan of action that satisfies all parties, to the point that I refrained from taking Imopen's head on a silver platter because I wanted to make sure that was what my team was ready to do, and that we were all on the same page.

Chomping at the bit a little, are we?

I don't get the meaning of this, sorry.

*thinks*

The no-lynch scenario doesn't work, actually. If we no-lynched, and scum killed, we'd be at 3 townies, two scum.

If we then double-killed me and Imopen, then we'd be at 2 townies, and one scum. Scum would NK, winning the game.

We can't no-lynch.

---

Here's what I think the best alternative is, at this point.

Step 1: Lynch imopen. He can't be reliably killed by the vigilante, and we need to lynch one of him or me today.
Step 2: CK vigs either me or Red, once he sees how Imopen flips. I chrono-boost the hell out of CK so he can manage this. If anyone else has any plans left, they submit a plan that makes CK's vig-kill unblockable, by either protection abilities or roleblocks. That ensures I die as well.
Step 3: Let's say the town can't count on CK or me being town. In that case, you can have Red chrono-boost a vig-kill controlled by LMD. Then, if Imopen flips scum, LMD can blast me into oblivion as well for redundancy's sake.
Step 4: Next day dawns with either a town victory (imopen and red both dead), or in the scenario in which I'm scum, it'd be me very much dead, and 2 townies vs. one scum in the endgame.

Step 3: Let's say the town can't count on CK or me being town. In that case, you can have Red chrono-boost a vig-kill controlled by LMD. Then, if Imopen flips scum, LMD can blast me into oblivion as well for redundancy's sake.

Then, if Imopen flips *town*

Be mindful that I've already stated that I'm willing to follow the Occam's Razor and consider you scum, as imopen claims having you as confirmed scum + myself having him as town.

I enjoy how both you and Imopen are mirroring the same flawed, logically corrupt arguments from one another, like chanting Occam's razor like it's some kind of decisive mantra, or as if it even applies here. You and Imopen both being scum running an endgame gambit is hardly some kind of convoluted, overly complicated theory, and Occam's razor flies right out the window when you're dealing with a game of deception, rather than a scientific inquiry based on empirical observation.

I don't see any logical reason for you to discard pre-emptively any explanation of what could have gone wrong with our inventions, you're just being overly confrontational because you're trapped in a corner.

Overly confrontational? You're spamming buzz words that don't even apply to anything I'm posting.

Imopen is just mindlessly chanting catchphrases like "listen to the cop" and "occam's razor" and hoping that people swallow them gullibly, and doing his best to argue people into vigging him for a 2nd time in a row, bc THAT's definitely going to end well.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to actually cooperate with my teammates, discuss all the gritty details of the situation, come up with a plan of action that satisfies all parties, to the point that I refrained from taking Imopen's head on a silver platter because I wanted to make sure that was what my team was ready to do, and that we were all on the same page.

Since the day imopen has claimed to have you as scum and I've confirmed him as town you've just limited your interaction with me to just claiming me scum and saying that everything I say makes no sense, to the point of calling "travesty" my attempts to come up with an explanation to what could have happened to mislabel you.
The only explanation to your behaviour I can come up with consists in you knowing very well that your only way out is trying to get imopen lynched, then come up with something like "well, right now it's clear that it was RN that has messed with his power and directed him all along" as soon as he flips town.

Step 3, utilizing Red and LMD's abilities, could take any number of other alternate forms if you think a vig-kill can be played around too easily.

Step 3 is also reinforced by whatever Dechs is planning. If he's correct in his assessment, even if we mislynched a townie Imopen, town still wouldn't lose, and I'd be dead shortly. That give us two redundant fail-safes to something going wrong with my suggested plan of action, one of which if I were scum, I couldn't possibly know how to counter.

The main advantage of this plan, compared to a lynch-Azrael plan, is that we know that Imopen has to be lynched, not killed. Lynching him opens up a lot more flexibility for our vigilante(s), tomorrow.

Questions, concerns?

The only explanation to your behaviour I can come up with consists in you knowing very well that your only way out is trying to get imopen lynched, then come up with something like "well, right now it's clear that it was RN that has messed with his power and directed him all along" as soon as he flips town.

That's not even on the table, Red. I'm explicitly saying you should have the option of vigging me to death as soon as Imopen flips, if he were to flip town, which he won't. No worming around, no survival, just a dead Azrael.

Hey, I'm really pretty sure that there can't be two scum left. That said, I really think we could all use another day. Specifically for our inventions. I mean, MoJo/CK is supposed to have a vig shot tomorrow. We can use it on Az with the insta lynch option on Imopen if that makes everyone happy.

The more I think about this, the more a no-lynch appeals to me.

Hey, I'm really pretty sure that there can't be two scum left. That said, I really think we could all use another day. Specifically for our inventions. I mean, MoJo/CK is supposed to have a vig shot tomorrow. We can use it on Az with the insta lynch option on Imopen if that makes everyone happy.

The more I think about this, the more a no-lynch appeals to me.

Dechs, I thought it through further, and no-lynch doesn't work:

*thinks*

The no-lynch scenario doesn't work, actually. If we no-lynched, and scum killed, we'd be at 3 townies, two scum.

If we then double-killed me and Imopen, then we'd be at 2 townies, and one scum. Scum would NK, winning the game.

We can't no-lynch.

---

Here's what I think the best alternative is, at this point.

Step 1: Lynch imopen. He can't be reliably killed by the vigilante, and we need to lynch one of him or me today.
Step 2: CK vigs either me or Red, once he sees how Imopen flips. I chrono-boost the hell out of CK so he can manage this. If anyone else has any plans left, they submit a plan that makes CK's vig-kill unblockable, by either protection abilities or roleblocks. That ensures I die as well.
Step 3: Let's say the town can't count on CK or me being town. In that case, you can have Red chrono-boost a vig-kill controlled by LMD. Then, if Imopen flips scum, LMD can blast me into oblivion as well for redundancy's sake.
Step 4: Next day dawns with either a town victory (imopen and red both dead), or in the scenario in which I'm scum, it'd be me very much dead, and 2 townies vs. one scum in the endgame.

Actually, no-lynch isn't a guaranteed loss, but we still wouldn't get the chance to double lynch, which would be the only attraction to a no-lynch scenario. You'd HAVE to make the next lynch or vig kill correctly, or it'd be game over. That doesn't really help us. We want two chances to get it right, not a single shot.

I've read that already, but the fact is you're too concerned with the three scum setup. You said earlier that three scum was practically impossible. What changed your mind?

No lynch is our best option. I could use a little more time and we really shouldn't worry about a night kill tonight anyway. The last scum doesn't really have any good options left.

Yeah nolynch is seldom useful.

I this case we are lynching 0 to potentially lynche 2 tomorrow, its the same net result than lynching 1 today and 1 tomorrow.

Its too bad there was no boost available for a vig shot today. Oh well...

Well, no lynch is useful here. We all get more time to get devices built. Precedent and flavor shows that scum doesn't have master builders. We benefit most from the extra time and tonight's night kill essentially has to eliminate one of our prime suspects.

I don't think we're going to lynch Az based on a single cop result when we suspect tampering. We've had two people up to L-1 already and I really don't feel comfortable hanging anyone with the information we have.

I'm going to start it.

Vote No Lynch

Scum's either going to kill CK to stop his vig or Imopen to stop him from using the second shot of his cop ability. Either way, it eliminates one of the big three suspects right now.

I've read that already, but the fact is you're too concerned with the three scum setup. You said earlier that three scum was practically impossible. What changed your mind?

Because two scum trying to kill me.

It's not feasible that there are less than two scum due to the claims that Imopen and Red have made. Together their claims make a non-two scum scenario impossible.

Imopen says I'm scum. I know that's a lie. And it's a lie that only pays off if there's two scum. Red says Imopen is town. That's also a lie. Therefore, Imopen and Red are scum, together.

I've read that already, but the fact is you're too concerned with the three scum setup. You said earlier that three scum was practically impossible. What changed your mind?

Because two scum trying to kill me.

It's not feasible that there are less than two scum due to the claims that Imopen and Red have made. Together their claims make a non-two scum scenario impossible.

Imopen says I'm scum. I know that's a lie. And it's a lie that only pays off if there's two scum. Red says Imopen is town. That's also a lie. Therefore, Imopen and Red are scum, together.

Or LMD's scum and he tampered with Imopen's lie detector.

I'll say one thing for Stardust: He's fucking creative. I would expect Lord Business to be our last scum and to have a lot of flavorful one shot powers, just like the arsenal of artifacts that he had in the movie.

I'm very close to replacing out so that someone else can see my pm's, repeat exactly what I've been saying for days, and win us this game. I'm tired of repeating myself and I don't really care anymore. If you simply look at the attitude change in Az from day 1 to day 3, you can see he is scum. "There couldn't possibly be 3 scum" turns into "there must be three scum" rather fast when you're caught.

Yes, I have multiple concerns with your plan, az.

1. It relies on CK having a vig shot
2. It relies on CK being town
3. It assumes that CK vigged me previously
4. It requires you to chrono boost this supposed vig shot to cause your own death. (You throw in that we could have RN post lmd's vig...yet neither of them have stated they are building such devices, and I am almost positive they would not have such devices ready before you would win).

How can someone be caught by a cop, have that cop confirmed as town, proceed to change his entire stance towards the game, post so many terribly flawed plans, and still be alive? Apparently by posting pages of verbose bullshit that bores the town into submission.

Honestly, Az, you're the closest to being lynched right now. If anyone, you should want to vote no-lynch out of self preservation instinct.

Scum's either going to kill CK to stop his vig or Imopen to stop him from using the second shot of his cop ability. Either way, it eliminates one of the big three suspects right now.

I don't think we can count on either of those two things happening. It might tell us something, depending on how they play it, but we're giving up a town-controlled kill to give the scum their choice of who to kill. If we gained a kill back via vig, it would be worth it, but we might not - CK might not survive, and then you'd still be looking at Az vs Imopen @ Red tomorrow.

Lynching today gives you the ability to avoid that. You can kill both me, and Imopen. That's a safer path. And the scum will still kill whoever they're going to kill, potentially eliminating one of your suspects.

Again, Imopen, consider the possibility that your cop ability was tampered with by someone other than Az. It's the perfect way to cause TWO mislynches.

What we need is another Day.

Honestly, Az, you're the closest to being lynched right now. If anyone, you should want to vote no-lynch out of self preservation instinct.

I'm not worried about self-preservation, I'm worried about the game being lost. Under either no-lynch or a lynch on me, our chances are questionable.

DK, if we vote no lynch, they will probably just kill you or LMD and we will have gained absolutely nothing. An extra day if building devices does not equal a town life imo, especially when I know az is scum

Ok, Az, try this: What's worse? Lynching you or no-lynching?

One of those is happening toDay.

Yes, I have multiple concerns with your plan, az.

1. It relies on CK having a vig shot
2. It relies on CK being town
3. It assumes that CK vigged me previously
4. It requires you to chrono boost this supposed vig shot to cause your own death. (You throw in that we could have RN post lmd's vig...yet neither of them have stated they are building such devices, and I am almost positive they would not have such devices ready before you would win).
.

Did you even read the plan? Every single one of these 4 points is wrong.

LMD and Red are responsible for taking me out in the scenario where CK is scum with me/I'm scum. There's no dependence upon CK or me boosting CK's shot for that.

If LMD and Red have submitted all their plans already, then the plan would have to be modified.

DK, if we vote no lynch, they will probably just kill you or LMD and we will have gained absolutely nothing. An extra day if building devices does not equal a town life imo, especially when I know az is scum

Already considered that and it won't happen. CK is too valuable a target if he's town, as are you. They can't let both of you guys live.

Five town are left. Four of us would get to continue to build, most of us finishing things. That's four "power roles" we'd get in exchange for a no-lynch.

I've read that already, but the fact is you're too concerned with the three scum setup. You said earlier that three scum was practically impossible. What changed your mind?

Because two scum trying to kill me.

It's not feasible that there are less than two scum due to the claims that Imopen and Red have made. Together their claims make a non-two scum scenario impossible.

Imopen says I'm scum. I know that's a lie. And it's a lie that only pays off if there's two scum. Red says Imopen is town. That's also a lie. Therefore, Imopen and Red are scum, together.

You're at it again.
I'm town and if you are as well you're too dumb to be alive at this point.

Scum's either going to kill CK to stop his vig or Imopen to stop him from using the second shot of his cop ability. Either way, it eliminates one of the big three suspects right now.

Scum will either kill LMD or you, as killing any other player would narrow the pool of the mislynchable players at this point of the game.

LMD's lurked well enough that he's still on my suspect list, so even if they shoot him, it helps me.

Precedent and flavor shows that scum doesn't have master builders.

What? Almost every town role has master builder in the claim, why wouldn't scum have access to that too?

And hell, I've pulled enough stunts early that I'm probably still mislynchable.

Precedent and flavor shows that scum doesn't have master builders.

What? Almost every town role has master builder in the claim, why wouldn't scum have access to that too?

GR didn't. In the movie, Lord Business was not a master builder.

Ok, Az, try this: What's worse? Lynching you or no-lynching?

One of those is happening toDay.

That depends on you.

I don't know what your ability tonight will be, and don't want to know. But that's a pretty relevant consideration.

I don't know whether you'll be more willing to lynch red and Imopen if CK is killed and flips town. That's a pretty relevant consideration too.

If we do lynch me today, we're entirely dependent on your secret ability going off as you intend it to, to win. We just plain lose if your ability doesn't stop the mafia from winning.

If we no lynch today, we're entirely depending on the surviving players tomorrow being willing to lynch Imopen and Red in succession.

Frankly, I'm a little unsure how you went from putting Imopen up to L-1, and trusting me enough to have a hammer option, to ruling out an Imopen lynch as even a possibility.

And let's say your one-scum theory is correct, Dechs, and I were the last scum. Under this theory, the only reason I didn't hammer Imopen was because I knew I'd be lynched the next day. If this were so, then we could mislynch Imopen today, and it wouldn't matter at all. You'd still be able to just lynch me tomorrow, and win.

But let's say I'm right. Let's say there are two scum left, and it's either me and CK, or it's Imopen and Red. If it were me and CK, our best chance would have been for me to take the hammer. I could boost him, he'd have a RB or a vig shot and/or a NK, easy path to victory. I don't think me and CK makes much sense as a theory because of that.

So if YOU believe the alternatives are either a 1-scum Azrael team, or a two-scum Imopen and Red team, then your choice ought to be clear. You can win against me in a single lynch, at any time, if I'm the only scum. You could mislynch today, and still win tomorrow. But to win against a two-scum team of Imopen and red requires you to lynch today, against one of their two members, or else we're completely dependent on your night ability working as you hope for to avoid an immediate loss tonight.

DK, if we vote no lynch, they will probably just kill you or LMD and we will have gained absolutely nothing. An extra day if building devices does not equal a town life imo, especially when I know az is scum

Already considered that and it won't happen. CK is too valuable a target if he's town, as are you. They can't let both of you guys live.

Why should imopen die? In the remote hypothesis that Azrael is town, imopen would get lynched no matter what tomorrow - why should they bother NKing him?

Answering this first because it's easy. I'll get to you next, Az.

DK, if we vote no lynch, they will probably just kill you or LMD and we will have gained absolutely nothing. An extra day if building devices does not equal a town life imo, especially when I know az is scum

Already considered that and it won't happen. CK is too valuable a target if he's town, as are you. They can't let both of you guys live.

Why should imopen die? In the remote hypothesis that Azrael is town, imopen would get lynched no matter what tomorrow - why should they bother NKing him?

If Az is town, it's because Imopen's power was tampered with. Imopen could easily reuse the ability tonight on Az, either clearing or damning Az for sure.

I'm very close to replacing out so that someone else can see my pm's, repeat exactly what I've been saying for days, and win us this game. I'm tired of repeating myself and I don't really care anymore. If you simply look at the attitude change in Az from day 1 to day 3, you can see he is scum. "There couldn't possibly be 3 scum" turns into "there must be three scum" rather fast when you're caught.

Yes, I have multiple concerns with your plan, az.

1. It relies on CK having a vig shot
2. It relies on CK being town
3. It assumes that CK vigged me previously
4. It requires you to chrono boost this supposed vig shot to cause your own death. (You throw in that we could have RN post lmd's vig...yet neither of them have stated they are building such devices, and I am almost positive they would not have such devices ready before you would win).

How can someone be caught by a cop, have that cop confirmed as town, proceed to change his entire stance towards the game, post so many terribly flawed plans, and still be alive? Apparently by posting pages of verbose bullshit that bores the town into submission.

Jesus, man cool your jets, its just a game.

Anyway, the fact stands that there is no reason whatsoever why my vig shot should not have succeeded in case I was town. You do understand that if it wasn't for this we would probably have lynched Az by now ok? I'm sorry but either my inventions don't work, or some scum/yourself protected you and that means you aren't nowhere near being confirmed cop.