Dies to Removal

No it's fine, we aren't Sally. Didn't realize it was a budget build. Makes sense. Sorry if I came across like a prick.

Nah, no prob. If this was in "Competitive" I wouldn't have posted there. "Developing" tho, seemed ok.

L_D, you said you tried Mardu Warriors.

I was thinking of starting with something cute, along the lines of Chief, Seeker, 1 Tymaret just for kicks and the usual shit (Rabble, Butcher etc.). Mardu Charm "could" work there.

Any thoughts on that? Basically I am still going to do few dailies with it but want your opinion.

Also not Bloodsoaked Champ. Even though the guy is awesome he doesn't play well with taplands and Caryatids. 8 2 drops should be fine... I guess.

Why is everyone trying to cut sarkhan? I get that it dies to shit, but do none of you know that the card is also a removal spell? Having a flame tongue kavu is so absurdly powerful.

Outright killing everything less then 3 mana and being able to kill rhino's that chump blocked goblin tokens pushes sarkhan way over the top of stormbreath. Having the option to 2-for-1 your opponent when you know they have downfall is something stormbreath just can't do.

Oh, and Stoke the flames. Watching stormbreath get killed by stoke is a massive loss of tempo, while sarkhan never has to deal with that.

I'm agonizing over Mardu Charm and Hordeling Outburst, but maybe it's just because I got trashed by my teammate's UB control list and I would have won games if I had the charm instead of Outburst (always get answered by Bile Blight). I have to test this one out. I'm also testing Rocs over Stormbreath.

But do take note that Hordeling Outburst just eats Jeskai alive unless they have Anger maindeck. If everyone catches up to the strategy, Mardu Charm might be better but it's just harder to cast.

Oh, and this one has a bad matchup with Unwritten devotion decks. Doomwake Giant is just bad for us.

Why is everyone trying to cut sarkhan? I get that it dies to shit, but do none of you know that the card is also a removal spell? Having a flame tongue kavu is so absurdly powerful.

Outright killing everything less then 3 mana and being able to kill rhino's that chump blocked goblin tokens pushes sarkhan way over the top of stormbreath. Having the option to 2-for-1 your opponent when you know they have downfall is something stormbreath just can't do.

Oh, and Stoke the flames. Watching stormbreath get killed by stoke is a massive loss of tempo, while sarkhan never has to deal with that.

I respect you, but I have to strongly disagree with you.

Frank Lepore playing Brad's Build:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12121

Looking around at some Mardu decks, I came across this interesting build:

[deck]Big Mardu[/deck]

Source: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14973&iddeck=110939

Seems a bit too topheavy, no?

Might be a little too top heavy. I might try to jam Brimaz in there instead of Rabblemaster.

and i still think that roc is just way worse than stormbreath or sarkhan. i see absolutly no reason why you would play him.. over one of those. he is slower, he is weaker, he just does nothing better than sarkhan and stormbreath...

i think he was only seen in those mardu lists, because they jumped on the bandwagon, that rock is awesome... and in abzan he is, but mardu has just 2 options that are both way better. i see absoutly no reason to play roc.

btw im really unsure about mardu charm too..... sometimes he is awesome, and sometimes he is just a little clunky. well need to test more i think

also i think that spear of helliod and dictate of heliod are just awesome if you go the token route. raise the alarm is just too good to get cut too.

Might be a little too top heavy. I might try to jam Brimaz in there instead of Rabblemaster.

Brimaz is terribly positioned right now. It was bad enough that I cut it all together before Game Day.

and i still think that roc is just way worse than stormbreath or sarkhan. i see absolutly no reason why you would play him.. over one of those. he is slower, he is weaker, he just does nothing better than sarkhan and stormbreath...

i think he was only seen in those mardu lists, because they jumped on the bandwagon, that rock is awesome... and in abzan he is, but mardu has just 2 options that are both way better. i see absoutly no reason to play roc.

btw im really unsure about mardu charm too..... sometimes he is awesome, and sometimes he is just a little clunky. well need to test more i think

also i think that spear of helliod and dictate of heliod are just awesome if you go the token route. raise the alarm is just too good to get cut too.

the only thing I can think is that Roc doesn't die to 1 for 1 removal.

yeah he doesnt, but sometimes it forces you into stupid attacks because you need the raid. also he only is 3/4 which means he cant even kill a rhino, if you dont block with both of them. stormbreath kills them anyway since prot from white and 4 damage. one of them do not even kill butcher.

means you always need both of them to kill any threat on the defensive route. if 1 gets killed then, both die and you got nothing.

abzan cant play stormbreath or sarkhan, so i understand that they take him. but for me he is only on place 3 on the flying 5 drops, where stormbreath and sarkhan share spot 1 and 2 depending on the matchup.
since he needs to played after combat you couldnt even "combo" him with hammer of purphoros or something to give him haste.

i just dont think he is as good as many people still claim. i never had any problem vs roc because i just had the stronger 5-drops and i was happy if they waste their mana on one of those birds..

Rhino is a 4/5.

I don't think trading a 1/1 goblin for a 3/4 bird is a stupid attack either lol.

Two in the top 16 is enough for me to want to test it. Let's try not to be dismissive and base our convictions on theorycrafting until we've tested extensively. I've never cast a Roc in constructef, so I'm not qualified to comment.

The thing with Roc is that the threat it represents is divided into two cards, both having evasion. One thing we all learned from PT (and with that I agree with WotC coverage team) is that evasion is key just like it was last season. Stormbreath may have haste but we all know how easily it dies to HDF or any other removal. It may block Rhinos all day but that is not really what you want to be doing with it.

Roc needs two cards (not counting Wrath) to deal with everything it represents so it generates card advantage by itself... it may be less aggresive but it is in no way a bad card compared to SBD. It may even have more lategame power.

Look at it this way. Roc is 6 power with evasion and conditional life gain for 5 mana. I'll definitely be playing it.

Roc needs two cards (not counting Wrath) to deal with everything it represents so it generates card advantage by itself... it may be less aggresive but it is in no way a bad card compared to SBD. It may even have more lategame power.

that is where i disagree, a 3/4 flyer without vigilance or something is not really a threat for me. mb my deck just can handle them better, but if the roc is his biggest threat, my sarkhan and stormbreath dragon laugh their asses off.

in my oppinion the roc is a way weaker threat than stormbreath or sarkhan, just because he has no haste. in this format full of removals, if i give my opponent 1 full turn to prepare, he nearly ALWAYS has an answer.

also 3 damage is less than 4 damage. even more if you get to 7 mana with stormbreath in play, which can happen from time to time in 25 land decks.

in my oppinion everything above 4 mana without immediate impact is bad. if the roc would have 4 power i would consider him over stormbreath or sarkhan, but since this is not the case i dont even consider him.
even if some guys play him, i still believe that they just played him, because he is hyped so he must be good, without enough testing to see that stormbreath and sarkhan are both way better.

Look at it this way. Roc is 6 power with evasion and conditional life gain for 5 mana. I'll definitely be playing it.

its not. its 2 creatures, and both can be blocked and handled with seperatly. thats a huge difference. also its not even ALWAYS 2 creatures. even on a token deck there will be times where you cant attack and you have to play him without raid.

yippie for the 3/4 flyer for 5...

Look at it this way. Roc is 6 power with evasion and conditional life gain for 5 mana. I'll definitely be playing it.

its not. its 2 creatures, and both can be blocked and handled with seperatly. thats a huge difference. also its not even ALWAYS 2 creatures. even on a token deck there will be times where you cant attack and you have to play him without raid.

yippie for the 3/4 flyer for 5...

With so many ways this deck has to generate creatures, if it's turn 5 and you have nothing to attack with to activate Raid, there's a problem. I don't recall one instance while watching GP LA where this happened. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but the deck should be played so it doesn't happen.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not comparing Roc to Stormbreath or Sarkhan. I think all 3 should be played together.

Let's try not to be dismissive and base our convictions on theorycrafting until we've tested extensively.

ENGLISH MOTHER FUCKER, DO YOU READ IT?

jk lol

3-0 at the LGS last night beating 2 Abzan and a 4x Dig Jeskai list. The deck was quite solid. Mana base was perfect. I've made a few slight tweaks trading a Seeker for another Thoughtseize and moving away from End Hostilities in the side. I think the decision you need to make putting together the top of Mardu is being aggressive with Dragon/Sarkhan/+Anger side or playing Sarkhan/Wingmate/Elspeth/+End Hostilities side. My current inclination is to play Dragon since it just wins me so many games and is solid against both Abzan and Jeskai.

My largest diversion from Nelson's updated list from SCG Premium this morning is running the playset of Thoughtseize. Maybe I'm using it as a crutch, but so far it's helping me win more games than something like Magma Jet + Murderous Cut.

[DECK]
Land (25)
3x Battlefield Forge
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Caves of Koilos
6x Mountain
4x Nomad Outpost
1x Swamp
2x Temple of Silence
3x Temple of Triumph

Enchantment (3)
3x Chained to the Rocks

Creature (13)
4x Butcher of the Horde
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
3x Seeker of the Way
2x Stormbreath Dragon

Instant (8)
4x Crackling Doom
4x Lightning Strike

Sorcery (6)
4x Hordeling Outburst
2x Thoughtseize

Planeswalker (5)
2x Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor

Sideboard (15)
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Glare of Heresy
2x Harness by Force
2x Hushwing Gryff
2x Thoughtseize
2x Utter End
[/DECK]
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mardu-outburst-eldub/

Roc is one of the defining cards of standard. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeskai Decks eventually start playing Rocs.

Like, it's a lifegaining 2-for-1. It's the most snowbally card around. Someone made a shitty comparison of Sarkhan vs. Roc. Sarkhan can attack through rocs. Cool. Rocs can attack and kill sarkhan. Or, you have the situations where sarkhan kills half of the card leaving the bird token behind to clean up. Get fucking real people.

Here's a more constructive argument:

Do you know what the principal of Brad and Valenti's deck is? It's mostly built around tempo leads and CA. All the threats minus Butcher are either super cheap(seeker) or can generate some form of CA across multiple bodies. If you play with or against jeskai, you learn that in most spots, it's better to skip your turn, then play a 3 into removal.

When you play, horedling outburst into there jet mana, they fall VERY far behind. When they have downfall at the ready and you play Sorin making a bat or have sarkahn kill there courser, you've gained more CA. Roc is an extension of this that also trumps some of the best cards out of those other decks. While both are affective vs. Elspeth out of junk and mantis rider out of Jeskai, Stormbreath can be answered 1-for-1 sometimes at a tempo loss, whereas Roc still lives a buddy behind and sometimes even prevents them from profitably playing there Elspeth.

This also ties into why you guys are high for thinking Stormbreath is better then Sarkhan in decks like these. Flexibility is more important because it plays into your gameplan. When you build your deck the way Brad's list is, Sarkhan becomes just a vastly superior card.

The only card in the deck that doesn't leave bro's behind is Butcher and that card both has haste half the time, and can simply win the game on it's own by being so fucking fat. The deck wanted some amount of Raw power cards, and Butcher gets the nod for being the cheapest option that also has synergy with the 3-drops.

Lastly, I'll say I WOULD rather have more Sarkhan's then rocs, but I'd definitely take Roc over Dragon.

That's an excellent analysis, almost all of which I agree with.

I've been a great help *runs into the night*

I think what makes Roc great in this deck is the disposable 1/1 Goblins it can generate. You will have a way to get that extra token most of the time.

I don't have much to add on the Roc debate, as I just got mine on MTGO last night and haven't had a chance to test yet. But... does anyone have Brad's updated list?

Haven't even checked SCG today. I'll update in a sec.

4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Seeker of the Way
Planeswalkers (6)

1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands (25)

6 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Battlefield Forge
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Nomad Outpost
2 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
Spells (18)

3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Crackling Doom
4 Lightning Strike
2 Magma Jet
1 Murderous Cut
4 Hordeling Outburst
Sideboard

2 Utter End
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Anger of the Gods
2 End Hostilities
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Read the Bones

So he moved towards the Sarkhan route? Magma Jet seems to be there for slight fixing.

I'd assume it's more for having early interaction on the draw.

I'm playing his list, -2 Magma Jet, +1 Sorin, +1 Seeker. See if I can live without Stormbreath. I've won so many games on the back of that card that it's hard to imagine, but I acknowledge that Brad is a better magician than me. It's funny that his arguments for Sarkan were exactly what LPs were. LP is one smart motherfucker.

I know I'm going to rage the first time Sarkan gets Jeskai Charm'd though...

I'm playing his list, -2 Magma Jet, +1 Sorin, +1 Seeker. See if I can live without Stormbreath. I've won so many games on the back of that card that it's hard to imagine, but I acknowledge that Brad is a better magician than me. It's funny that his arguments for Sarkan were exactly what LPs were. LP is one smart motherfucker.

I know I'm going to rage the first time Sarkan gets Jeskai Charm'd though...

Or Abzan Charmed

Definitely agree 3x Sorin is the way to go.

Hordeling + Sorin steals games. I would love to read what Brad has to say with regards to the latest iteration of his deck.

I traded for extra Sarkans last night, so I'll let you guys know what I think. I do think it will hurt the jeskai match up...

Hordeling + Sorin steals games. I would love to read what Brad has to say with regards to the latest iteration of his deck.

The Long short of it is that the deck was basically thrown together last minute.

He said Roc felt win more, but Sarkhan was amazing so he made that swap. While not directly stated, it's implied that he wanted more of a tempo edge, so that's why there's a murderous cut added.

Mostly though, it's a giant sideboard guide with tips and tricks thrown in about playing around obvious cards.

Hello mardu friends! Going to be running Brads latest at FNM tonight and also a TCG Platinum $1.5k event.

Was on Jeskai but it just didnt feel right playing with Islands in my deck.

Hopefully I will have something useful to say after FNM tonight.

Took down FNM with Brad's list. Sarkan ended up playing just like Stormbreath.

My only loss was to mono red. Just too damn fast. T3 / 4 kills. Too stronk. I think Brad's list might want the 4th anger to hedge vs that match.

I think -2 Read the bones, + 1 Lili, +1 Anger might be good.

RtB dodges disdainful stroke, but other than that felt worse than plameswalkers.

Thoughts?