[Primer] Devotion Red

[Khaospawn]

I may not be a smart man...but I know when I when I don't want a colorless producing land.

Seriously, I was not comfortable playing only Ash Zealot with less than 21 land in a format with only Hellion Crucible as my "manland." So now that I definitely want to hit double Red on turn 2, I also reeeaaalllllly need to hit triple Red on turn 3. Hmmm....

Yep, I want 22 Mountains.

Now, I'm also a fan of playing 23 lands when I have up to 6x4-Drops. I'm always willingly to make a concession for the 23rd land being colorless-producing. It could be Mutavault. But it could also be a Mountain. And then I'd NEVER get color-screwed.

And also, for the umpteenth time, Hammer works nicer than Mutavault ever will in the long run, in the Mogis deck.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah I'm pretty convinced you just want 22 mountains now.

[DarthStabber]

A 0% chance of drawing a 2-vault hand is significantly less than a 10-15% one (citing Johnny's tests). Are you comfortable with 1/10 hands being sub-par? I'm not.

Means as how I don' t need to hit RRR on turn three preboard johnny's tests likely don't apply to me.

And also, for the umpteenth time, Hammer works nicer than Mutavault ever will in the long run, in the Mogis deck.

Yes hammer is better, but there is no compelling reason you can't do both. Also even though they are both "manland" ish cards, their actual use in play is a bit apples vs.
Oranges.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Here's my abstract answer to this:

Who is going "big" and why? Who the fuck mentioned Dragons? Firefist Striker is not meant for this deck. Personally, I'd rather have Shred-Freak if you can believe that (and I invite the criticism
for this). Hammer is our answer for Verdicts/Control (plays nice with Mogis). Nykthos didn't work for you because you played like 3 games with it (which is still 3 more games than my testing with it...so... ).

And most importantly, who gives a shit about other people? Really? We picked apart Bertorelli's list like a pack of Wild Mongrels and he won a fucking event. Nobody else has flat-out won one with a Mogis list since (granted, it's only been a week or two). And that muthafucka didn't need a Mutavault. So really, why do we feel like we have to have it???

We don't.


I could see myself playing one, I could. But you know what? Hammer works better than Mutavault in THIS deck.

Not trying to be defensive, but your response came off like we were Assembling the Legion on my own post in our own home.

I truly believe, with the most conviction that I can muster, more than 1
Mutavault in this deck is going to FUCK anybody.

Ok, you ninja'd me here.

I am testing to go big plan. I posted the list yesterday. I am talking about dragons, because tgey are well positioned vs U/W and G/W.

I don't know if you remember or not, but I suggested the devotion deck with shred freaks months ago, and I was the first one to suggest them again when I cleaned up Bertolli's deck after the SCGO win.

Funny thing is, simulation says BTE + FFS decks average T4.9 kill, where as zealot + RSF average 5.1. You also get the falter effects for blockers.

I like the Hammer and was an early adopter, but it conflicts with the dragons, which are in my sideboard instead. I believe they are currently better positioned.

It only took me three a dozen games to realize what was wrong with Nykthos. You will too.

As far as mutavault goes, my simulations can not show us how a T3 anger or T4 wrath effects us. I think I'll be
glad to have vault there though.

If you don't pay attention to tournament results, you are in a minority. It is a contradiction to accept Bertolli's result but discredit the results of others who have updates the deck. Both lists this weekend that top 16'd ran vaults. There has only been one event sinve Bertolli's win, and the deck is now on the radar. You can't expect two in a row with everyone gnning for it.

I'm not at all sure what you mean with the our house comment, but I'll wait for further explanation before I respond. Are you somehow implying that this in not my house too?

[Helios]

Chillax, bros. No one is trying to discredit anybody. Doesn't matter who did what first, we're all trying to make the best deck possible.

[Str1fe5]

Boy today was tough. Pretty discouraging results. Hard to tell if it's me or the deck. Lost to pretty much everything. But lost close every time. Question: what are people's results so far?

[Narcasus]

I played Johnny's list all day on modo, granted i only did a single 2 man q, which i won 2-0 vrs esper control. Otherwise i played in the Tourny pracitce room. ignoring the decks that didnt make sense i went about 10-4 on the day, losing one mirror and then 3 midrange decks. Against midrange, it felt i had to rush underneath them and try to kill them asap. It honestly felt like, did they draw enough kill spells? yes? i lose. No? i win. I still need to play more though to get a better handle. As far as the mutavaults go, i did run 20 mountains and 2 mutas. I never hit mana issues and mutavaults won me a few games i would have lost for sure against anger of the gods. many times i was playing pheonix on turn 3, baiting kill spells before i ever played reckoner as well. Strongest card of the day i felt like was pheonix, all day it went over the top and came back to my hand.

[DarthStabber]

I don't have tournament results yet (as I have stated before I seem to only be able to find drafts, which is okay because I have taken first or second in all of them so far), but testing has me (pre-board) 70-30 vs. control variants, 60-40 vs. midrange, and god aweful against aggro. This data is all very preliminary, all preboard, and I couldn't really tell you the full lists I was up against, nor can I verify they are particularly good players. I need to get some post board testing in, but every one seems intent on testing their main 60, and a trial by fire would be nice. I feel like I am onto something in my faster maindeck and I would like more reliable feedback that only a real tournament can provide.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Glad it's going well Narcasus. Which midrange specifically has been giving you trouble? Can you provide any testing notes?

Darth, what's going wrong vs aggro?

[DarthStabber]

Glad it's going well Narcasus. Which midrange specifically has been giving you trouble? Can you provide any testing notes?

Darth, what's going wrong vs aggro?

All of these games are preboard (single games), and I am reaping what I have sewed for preboarding for control. With my reckoners in the board gw aggro and mirror matches have my number, I have a hard time dealing with reckoners and the big seles critters. I can only win if I get a lucky nut draw, or they get a shaky start. I would honestly be pretty suprised if were doing well against aggro preboard.

[LP, of the Fires]

My reasoning for running a muta or 2 is because I played gruul a LOT last season and that deck was playing 21 land 4 reckoner along with having 2 temple gardens in the deck which are basically shitty muta's in a non-zero amount of your highly aggressive 2 land hands.

The only reason I was playing 21 land and not 20 was because I wanted to occasionally cast a hellrider of which I played 3. And I figured I'd get more value out of my manabase by having my extra land do something(produce green) other then tap for "devotion" mana.

If I'm playing 22 lands instead of 21 because I'm playing 4 4-drops and I'm trying to curve out, I want to get value out of my "extra" land other then adding mana.

While we do have all of our tables to support our deck building, manabases are part art and are an expression of how we as individuals want to play our game. Hence some people (like pat sully) will play as
few lands as possible because they don't ever want to be flooded and others(like Z) will play an extra land so that they don't ever want to be screwed.

I will play a mutavault because I want to add value to my manabase. If I win a game with just BTE, FFS, a one drop, a mutavault, and a burn spell, I could have my opponent put me on the AIR deck and misboard. If I'm in a close game and draw the mutavault, I suddenly have an extra attacker or blocker.

You lose something like 5% or 1 in 20 games of casting whatever on curve do to drawing 2 mountains and mutavault in your opener along with your reckoner. I'll gladly take that risk as I feel your deck is still powerful enough to win most of those games as opposed to the 0% of games you can win with a powerful bullet like muta.

[LP, of the Fires]

Also, at the risk of starting imaginary beef, as johnny said he came up with rakdos shred freak+whatever, "Z's" pyro red list is almost exactly what I was playing at the end of rotation with the only major upgrade that I didn't think of being hammer of P.

I say this not to discredit Z or to try to inflate myself, but actually to make the point of it doesn't really matter where the tech came from.

We live in the age of the internet. Being "the guy" who built X deck doesn't mean as much anymore because the hive mind will inevitably take your deck, destroy all the flaws, and perfect it and who cares where the original shell came from at that point? The original is still "bad" 90% of the time, but is less bad then everything else so gets elevated to preeminence where it's WORTH making better. Look at fucking devotion red! Most of you hated the original list for better or worst, and now you
all are trying to refine it.

It's not important who gets credit, it's important that you keep having ideas. No matter how "bad" the original deck was, the idea was brilliant and gives the red community something to forge into a meta smashing hammer from now, until who knows when.

tl;dr, don't bicker over credit, just keep coming up with ideas and encourage everyone's effort for creative and critical thinking, no matter how bad the ideas are.

[LaZerBurn]

Good morning people

Here's the Cliffe's Notes for anyone who is in a hurry - today I learnt not to test when I'm tired and grumpy and not to pay any attention to results posted with poor lists It's not the first time I've learnt this, but apparently I didn't take sufficient notice last time

Ok,following on from yesterday's PryoRed Testing post - viewtopic.php?p=119091#p119091 - I threw together a Devotion Red list and played a few games on MTGO to get a feel for the deck. Note the phrase 'threw together' My first impressions were not favourable. I simply didn't enjoy playing the deck as much as PyroRed; it was more of a blunt instrument, with less tricks. I wasn't even that impressed with Fanatic although he did win me a couple of games.

Results wise I went 5 - 3 (10-7 in games) with the deck, beating PyroRed (?)twice, AIR/BTE Red, U/W with Battlewise Hoplite and WW. I lost to WW - I drew 7 land, 7 spells followed by 6 land, 7 spells and was mauled horrifically by 2 RWB decks like this - http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/58588 These games were so one sided it wasn't funny, although I did get him down to 2 life in one game before he played Ghost Council and Aurelia I realised that
I was far too tired for any further testing to be worthwhile after making a really horrific mistake in my 10th match and put myself to bed.

I returned to the deck this morning and thought I'd play a few more games before totally dismissing it but I checked the RDW and Devotion Red threads first and saw Z's current Devotion Red listing - viewtopic.php?p=119394#p119394 - at which point I 'tweaked' the deck I 'threw together' and played some more games. What a difference a good list makes! The deck is running smoothly and I'm enjoying playing it, still not as much as PyroRed but certainly more than last night's grumpy affair

As an aside the standard of players and quality of decks seems much lower in the practice rooms right now -11.30pm UK time - than 12 hours ago. Has anyone else noticed any
patterns on MTGO?

[Lightning_Dolt]

Also, at the risk of starting imaginary beef, as johnny said he came up with rakdos shred freak+whatever, "Z's" pyro red list is almost exactly what I was playing at the end of rotation with the only major upgrade that I didn't think of being hammer of P.

I say this not to discredit Z or to try to inflate myself, but actually to make the point of it doesn't really matter where the tech came from.

We live in the age of the internet. Being "the guy" who built X deck doesn't mean as much anymore because the hive mind will inevitably take your deck, destroy all the flaws, and perfect it and who cares where the original shell came from at that point? The original is still "bad" 90% of the time, but is less bad then
everything else so gets elevated to preeminence where it's WORTH making better. Look at fucking devotion red! Most of you hated the original list for better or worst, and now you all are trying to refine it.

It's not important who gets credit, it's important that you keep having ideas. No matter how "bad" the original deck was, the idea was brilliant and gives the red community something to forge into a meta smashing hammer from now, until who knows when.

tl;dr, don't bicker over credit, just keep coming up with ideas and encourage everyone's effort for creative and critical thinking, no matter how bad the ideas are.

LP, the credit isn't super important to me. However, I'm not going to say it doesn't matter at all. Since you, Photodyer and I has our spat last winter, I have tried my best to contribute everything I have to this community. When you guys told me last winter that I wasn't contributing, it was true. Now, any ideas, reports I can write, decklists or
tech vs the meta that I think of ends up here. I try really hard to contribute to this community, because this community has helped me so much.

Therein lies the problem. Maybe I'm being too sensitive about it, but I feel slighted when someone takes one of my lists a week after I post it, renames it after himself (which I have always found to be pretentious), and then insinuates that I'm an outsider in the house he built.

I've been contributing to the development of the archetype all along and was one of the first to come to it. That decklist was one of my contributions to this community. I don't demand that everyone acknowledge it, but I will bring it up when someone questions my contributions. Maybe he didn't mean it that way, but it is how it came across. I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but I needed to get this off my chest.

I want to start working on the next level for this deck. I'm trying to work with those who are willing to test new things with me. We are a lot better together than
we are apart. Those of you who are testing with me, trying to find that next level, thank you. Let's keep at it.

@ Darthstabber I think it's probably better to MB for aggro / midrange. The deck accells at that. If you want to be pre-boarded for Control, Pyro Red w/ reckoners SB is probably the better call. The list I posted with the extra falters is probably a good option too, although I won't get to test it until FNM.

[Khaospawn]

Also, at the risk of starting imaginary beef, as johnny said he came up with rakdos shred freak+whatever, "Z's" pyro red list is almost exactly what I was playing at the end of rotation with the only major upgrade that I didn't think of being hammer of P.

I say this not to discredit Z or to try to inflate myself, but actually to make the point of it doesn't really matter where the tech came from.

We live in the age of the internet. Being "the guy" who built X deck doesn't mean as much anymore because the hive mind will inevitably take your deck,
destroy all the flaws, and perfect it and who cares where the original shell came from at that point? The original is still "bad" 90% of the time, but is less bad then everything else so gets elevated to preeminence where it's WORTH making better. Look at fucking devotion red! Most of you hated the original list for better or worst, and now you all are trying to refine it.

It's not important who gets credit, it's important that you keep having ideas. No matter how "bad" the original deck was, the idea was brilliant and gives the red community something to forge into a meta smashing hammer from now, until who knows when.

tl;dr, don't bicker over credit, just keep coming up with ideas and encourage everyone's effort for creative and critical thinking, no matter how bad the ideas are.

LP, the credit isn't super important to me. However, I'm not going to say it doesn't matter at all. Since you, Photodyer and I has our spat last winter, I have tried my best
to contribute everything I have to this community. When you guys told me last winter that I wasn't contributing, it was true. Now, any ideas, reports I can write, decklists or tech vs the meta that I think of ends up here. I try really hard to contribute to this community, because this community has helped me so much.

Therein lies the problem. Maybe I'm being too sensitive about it, but I feel slighted when someone takes one of my lists a week after I post it, renames it after himself (which I have always found to be pretentious), and then insinuates that I'm an outsider in the house he built.

I've been contributing to the development of the archetype all along and was one of the first to come to it. That decklist was one of my contributions to this community. I don't demand that everyone acknowledge it, but I will bring it up when someone questions what my contributions. Maybe he didn't mean it that way, but it is how it came across. I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but I needed to get this off
my chest.

I want to start working on the next level for this deck. I'm trying to work with those who are willing to test new things with me. We are a lot better together than we are apart. Those of you who are testing with me, trying to find that next level, thank you. Let's keep at it.

@ Darthstabber I think it's probably better to MB for aggro / midrange. The deck accells at that. If you want to be pre-boarded for Control, Pyro Red w/ reckoners SB is probably the better call. The list I posted with the extra falters is probably a good option too, although I won't get to test it until FNM.

JS, if you want to provide me with an address, I'll be more than happy to mail you a box of steel wool to RUB THAT SAND OUT OF YOUR PUSSY.

You think I stole your decklist? Then renamed it as my own? I think you have a chip on your shoulder, bud. I've made it pretty clear where my list came from. I've given credit where credit is due, and if you feel that that somewhere buried under [i:
1yl1iv58]five[/i] fucking Red Deck threads is a list that you posted that deserves some recognition and credit, then dig it up so we can all have cupcakes, balloons, funny hats, and pinatas at Johnny Spike's little "get my credit" party.

Think I'm pretentious for slapping my name on my deck? I really don't care. Call me pretentious. Feel free slap "Johnny Spike's Devotion Deck" across your posts as well.

I'm not questioning your contributions to the deck. I'm not questioning your contributions anywhere. You're a solid player and a good Redbro. But you make it sound like the big, bad Khaospawn knocked you down at school, took your homework, and wrote "Khaos's Homework Wins" to receive the grade that you should've got. Magic doesn't work like that. You get credit by actually accomplishing something with a list. Since I actually have some results with the deck I posted what I have. In the overall scope of things, winning an FNM is small potatoes, but the
deck was battle tested and Khaos-approved. I felt like I could call it my own at that point, and I didn't see another list like that.

Here's a story about a year ago. Back on Sally, when it was just a bunch of bros clowning around on Z's Primer trying to make the next big Red Deck, I threw out a particular list. I'll never forget what it was, though I'm not going to post it. It was a 23 land deck that curved out at 2 Thundermaws. I put my list out, and then went to FNM, where I promptly lost back-to-back matches to Selesnya Aggro. Disheartened, I scrapped the deck and went with Dos Rakis. However, dpaine took a deck that was card-for-card my list and did amazing at States with it. Now, I'm not saying he copied my deck. I'm not saying he copied anyone. The facts speak for itself: dpaine played the hell out of that deck and deserved every bit of praise that he got for it. That decklist was archived in Z's Primer as the "dpaine list."I'd be lying if I said that every time I saw that list
another person's name on it, I was ok with it. At first I wasn't. Seriously. I think I even went so far out there to say to dpaine, "Hey buddy, that was my list." But you know what? I was wrong to do that. It wasn't me that played that deck at States - it was him. Anyways, I moved on. I got less butthurt about it. And then I started putting my names on the decks that I played. I started crediting people's ideas.

I honestly don't know where this "I was the first person ever to put Shred-Freak in a Devotion list" came from, but I've seen a lot of lists. A lot of them have Shred-Freak. And a lot of those decks are just poorly built. If you submitted a list that got lost in the numerous threads and I happened to glance at it, but don't remember, then I apologize. But nobody can say I don't give credit where credit's due. I namedrop people like no tomorrow when I post lengthy lists. I believe your name was at the end of one too.

Also, I didn't insinuate jack shit about you
being an outsider. DTR is "OUR" house. The FoS is "OUR" family. And what I mean by that is it's always been the FoS against the world. Not the FoS against itself. We Assemble the Legion to dump some knowledge on those poor souls over at Sally. We're sarcastic, but it works. I'm saying, we shouldn't be doing this in our own house. We're bickering. And the bickering doesn't get us anywhere.

Now lets be friends again.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Let's be friends again. I don't like arguing with anyone on here.

I didn't know that the Dpaine list was originally yours. I had a lot of success with that list, so thank you.

Just for reference, and then I'll shut the hell up about it, the first time I shared my devotion red list was September 15th in the RDW thread.

On to bigger and better things. What are your feeling on the transformational dragon-board? I thought you would like the idea.

With the influx of G/W, I think it's time to go big to beat them the way we used to.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah lots of GW around, which means its dragon stompy time.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Yeah lots of GW around, which means its dragon stompy time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think G/W or U/W really have any way to interact with a Pro-white guy. Seems like it should be well positioned.

[Narcasus]

Something similar to Johnny's list post board maybe?

[Str1fe5]

Okay I'm going to do some testing today, with Shred-Freaks instead of FFS. I don't think the FFS really improve the midrange match up that much but the extra damage against control is huge. The other thing I'm considering is just main boarding the Weirds to get more deck space in the 75. He's an auto include against other aggro and I am generally boarding him in some multiples against various forms of control for the FFS anyway. He's not even *that* bad against midrange, as he's a body that can take down a Smiter and all 3/3s. He may be the right call with the development of the devotion green decks as a result anyway.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Okay I'm going to do some testing today, with Shred-Freaks instead of FFS. I don't think the FFS really improve the midrange match up that much but the extra damage against control is huge. The other thing I'm considering is just main boarding the Weirds to get more deck space in the 75. He's an auto include against other aggro and I am generally boarding him in some multiples against various forms of control for the FFS anyway. He's not even *that* bad against midrange, as he's a body that can take down a Smiter and all 3/3s. He may be the right call with the development of the devotion green decks as a result anyway.

Are you not activating battalion? What flavor of midrange are you having issue with?

I am not a fan of Weird at
all, not even a little. Card has never been good in any of my testing.

It might be correct to -4 BTE, -4 FFS, -2 GSC +4 AZ, +4 RSF, +2 Shock if the falter effects aren't helping.

[Str1fe5]

Are you not activating battalion? What flavor of midrange are you having issue with?

I am not a fan of Weird at all, not even a little. Card has never been good in any of my testing.

It might be correct to -4 BTE, -4 FFS, -2 GSC +4 AZ, +4 RSF, +2 Shock if the falter effects aren't helping.

here's the list I've been testing on Modo:

[deck]
Lands
22 Mountain

Creatures
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge

Spells
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Sideboard:
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Act of Treason
3 Skullcrack
[/
deck]

I don't have $60+ to spend on Stormbreaths on MODO, although I will be running them at States if they test well, as well as the Mutas I have in real life. (1 main 1 board for the 23rd land to support 2-3 Stormbreaths).

FFS seems to do what its supposed to do against midrange. The issue is whether his Battalion effect against midrange is important enough in that match up that it's worth having him be so underwhelming in other matchups, such as any aggressive deck with red or black or more pure control decks.

Are you not running Ash Zealot at all JS? Are you running 4 BTE and 4 FFS with no AZ's? That's interesting.

Weird isn't an all star for me against control, but I want it instead of FFS, and it is definitely a brick wall in the mirror. I don't feel its a dead draw against midrange either because of that high toughness.

I'm also fully willing to entertain the notion that I'm just not playing the deck right.

[Khaospawn]

JS - brickwalling with First Strike guys and sailing over the top using Phoenix and Dragon sounds pretty good against G/W. It's worked in the past.

[DarthStabber]

@ Darthstabber I think it's probably better to MB for aggro / midrange. The deck accells at that. If you want to be pre-boarded for Control, Pyro Red w/ reckoners SB is probably the better call. The list I posted with the extra falters is probably a good option too, although I won't get to test it until FNM.

My current main deck actually runs 4x ffs, and that's the only reason winning is possible against aggro. The aggro decks beating me fold like wet cardboard against U/W/x control, so I am less worried about play once sideboarding comes in. My sideboard is currently in flux, mostly because I haven't hada chance to test any elements in it, but I know reckoners is in it along with a single mountain to shore up color density when brining him
in.
[Deck]
4 rakdos cackler
4 firedrinker satyr
4 firefist striker
4 rakdos shred-freak
4 ash zealot
4 chandra's phoenix
3 fanatic of mogis

2 hammer of purphoros
4 lightning strike
4 magma jet

2 mutavault
21 mountain

Sideboard
4 boros reckoner
1 mountain
???[/deck]

[Khaospawn]

So, Dragons in the board. 2 seems about right?

[Gigex]

I've tried the list without the shred freaks, I can't remember who originally posted it (hard to keep track with all the threads). While he (the shred freak) is awesome vs control, i find him very underwhelming otherwise. I never found myself wanting to board in the frostburn weirds, just preferred more mortars tbh, I find keeping them off of creatures to put unflinching courage onto is REALLY important, so i just try to kill everything they play and pop down the dragon when they run out of cards.

[deck]
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis

2 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Hammer of Purphoros

1 Mutavault
22 Mountain

3 Act of Treason
4 Skullcrack
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Mutavault
2 Stormbreath Dragon [/deck]

Against GW i take out the 8 one drops and hammer. I believe Zem
mentioned this earlier but to re-iterate, hammer and dragon don't really go well together. I put in 4 Mortars, 2 Dragons, the Mutavault and 2 skullcracks. Not sure if we NEED the extra land with chandra drawing us extra cards, but I never felt flooded. Also not sure if we need the skullcracks in this matchup but imo its a whole lot more useful than a one drop.

[Zooligan]

I really found T1 Cackler/Satyr/Denizen -> T2 Shred-Freak/Ash Zealot (swing 4, 4 total) -> T3 Phoenix -or- Shred-Freak/Ash Zealot/Shortcutter + Cackler/Satyr/Denizen (swing 6, 10 total) immensely more satisfying and a lot more likely than T1 Cackler/Satyr (unleashed) -> T2 Ash Zealot (swing 4, 4 total) -> T3 Reckoner (swing 4, 8 total).

Reckoner just seemed to slow to me. Wasn't aggressive enough vs other aggro, and gave control too much time to get their game together. And not having that other hasty 2-drop felt way slow.

But a good argument with some comparative examples could sway my opinion...

[Wrathberry2]

i really had the feeling that devotion gets worse the more decks with many removals you meet.
its still good vs control, cause its still fast enough. but its absolutly horrible vs black/red midrange decks... you eat removals the early turns, so you cant build any devotion and then you meet a fatty you cant ever handle.

its just not good enough vs every deck which plays a good amount of early removal, which i permantly met at cockatrice these days.. i lost 9 games in a row once.. that was when i decided that devotion red is too dependend on a good early game.. if that fails you basicly lost.

[Zooligan]

That is a good point. Esper with lots of low cost bounce/destroy/edict/-X effects kept my devotion low and just ate me up.

Of course, they would have done the same thing with Reckoners too... "Target player sacs a creature" doesn't care if it's Shred-Freak or Reckoner.

EDIT: However "Destroy target non-black creature" does

[Wrathberry2]

i played many games vs DEGA Midrange the last few days and never had a chance to do anything... same with most other decks who play much spot removal early on to drop fatties later.

[Yarpus]

Nobody ever "stole" my Tibalt idea.
I wish anyone would steal my Tibalt idea as that'd mean someone besides of me actually played him.

Also: yeah, Shitbreath Dragon becomes a thing I guess.

[deck]Creatures:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Other Spells:
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Lands:
2 Mutavault
22 Mountain[/deck]

But then deck seems susceptible for Control matchups as you want to board out:
-4 Shock, -4 Magma Jet (if possible), -4 Reckoner
Our cardpool is not that good to support 8 anti-Control cards in SB. All you want most of the time is Skullcrack.
Just for this reason, I'd swap Reckoners for Chandra's Phoenix. Or Shocks for Rakdos Shred-Freak.

Did I just added more lands and Dragons to DevoRed? I have to be
a fucking genius.

[DarthStabber]

I played tibalt in a casual deck full of madness and flashback, I called it "here tibalt, you play for me", it was so much fun (and it was so bad).

[Zooligan]

i played many games vs DEGA Midrange the last few days and never had a chance to do anything... same with most other decks who play much spot removal early on to drop fatties later.

So is Devotion Red DOA at FNM this week?

[Wrathberry2]

DOA? sorry i actualy dont know what that means^^

[RaidaTheBlade]

I'm still kinda a beginner player, just doing FNM level stuff, but I'm really liking this style of deck, and kinda wanted to share my build/mild testing experience, so I can be critiqued and be used as an example of a bad player, and how to make bad players learn how to be better e.e

I've got semi-limited resources, so Chandras and Dragons are kinda out of my price range, but I've been playing around with decks designed to still work without them, and I kind wanted to get the thoughts of the more established red mages…

My current build is:

[deck]
Lands
22 Mountain

Creatures
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
2 Firefist Strikers
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis


Spells
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

Enchantments/Artifacts
2 Hammer of Purphoros

Sideboard:
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Burning Earth
3 Act of Treason
3 Skullcrack
n2 Shock
[/deck]

My mainboard is already kinda set up for control and aggro to an extent, since that's a lot of what my local meta has.

For sideboarding, it's:
If it's a three color control it's usually +2 Burning Earth, +1 Hammer (and +3 Skullcracks if it uses revelation), and -2 FFS, -1 LS (and -2 shock, -1 more LS if i have to use skullcracks).
For 2 color control, I skip the Burning earths, and just leave in some burn

For g/w and other midrangey decks, I go +3 Act of Treason, +3 Skullcrack, +4 Mizzium, pulling out -2 FFS - 4 Weirds -2 shocks -2 hammers

Against more aggro/mirror matches, it's +2 Shocks, -2 FFS.


As far as my decision to not have Satyr in there is just that while I understand and respect how good it is, I don't like playing it, and it always seems to end up being a liability, whereas the Weird is still a mana sink and has just done a lot more beat-sticking for me.


Please tell me what I'm doing wrong and what to do right I'm still not anywhere near as good as I'd like to be...

[Wrathberry2]

i actualy dont think you ever want to have more than 2 hammers in your deck, even vs control. cause they rarely get destroyed, and multiples do you nothing.

also you should play another 1-drop or rakdos shred-freak intead of forstburn weird in my oppinion.

[LaZerBurn]

@ Wrathberry2 DOA = dead on arrival.

[NerdBoyWonder]

[deck]Creatures 24
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Instants/Sorceries 8
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet

Enchantments/Artifacts/Planeswalkers 5
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Hammer of Purphoros

Lands 23
22 Mountain
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx[/deck]

Posted this over in RDW thread but decided to port it over. My meta tends to be midrange mostly so I am tempted to switch up the build a bit. If my Meta is mainly control Frostburn Weird would be in the side while Shred Freak would be main. Actually tempted to go 4 Reckoner mainboard with my field being so midrange/aggro this season.

Known decks in my local meta:
My bro's creatureless esper control
My buddy's Naya midrange
Unpolished Big Red (while lists have moved away from Burning Earth the player intends to stick with the build from last season as well as jam YP$ & Red God)
nR/B Minotaur Tribal
G/R Slivers Tribal

Other decks will be Green based midrange decks and possibly one other blue control deck just based on the player base history. My local meta likes to play big creatures. Admittedly I am going back and forth between Devotion Red and B/r Aggro for Gameday. First standard FNM this week followed by another next week so I will eventually have some FNM reports.

[Shardoon]

I've been trying a transformational sideboard:

[deck]2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Ember Swallower
2 Mutavault
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
2 Act of Treason[/deck]

Depending on your build you can bring in the total package against midrange or 12 of the cards if there's no lifegain threat.

Vs BWR, Naya, Simic etc Midrange: -4 Shock, -4 Firedrinker -4 Rakdos Shred-Freak -2 Fanatics + Full 15

Vs Jund or mono-green: -4 Shock, -8 mixture of Firedrinkers & Shred Freaks & Fanatics + SB but not Skullracks

Vs UW Control: On the play: - 3 Shock, +3 Skullcrack, On the Draw -4 Shock, -3 Boros Reckoners + 2 Mutavault, +3 Skullcrack, +2 Dragons

Vs. UB Control with Whip: -4 Shock, -1 Lightning Strike, + 3 Skullcrack + 2 Act of Treason

[Zooligan]

DOA? sorry i actualy dont know what that means^^

"Dead on Arrival"