Dies to Removal

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:21 pm**

I've made money on Magic so far this week. I had 50 Bucks on Reid Duke top 4ing the world championships and he's got first place so he's on the play to start all rounds on Sunday. Never underestimate the Duke.

As far as horse racing, I don't know anything about it, but my father does. His former brother in law used to own a bookey joint and taut my dad all that stuff.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:01 pm**

I left $20 up. Disregard horses, acquire half of a hydra.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:07 pm**

Just wait a turn, it'll turn into a full hydra.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:14 pm**

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... dDecklists

Decklists from World Championships.

I remember Fate saying something about kiblers deck vs. his deck and something about scavenging oozes. Apparently, Kibler's deck was an ooze deck, but by the nature of the tourney, all there testing got inbred and kibler decided he needed to be faster to beat lifebane zombie jund so he made last minute adjustments. Apparently worked out for him since he 3-0'd standard.

Coolest deck is easily Wescoe's since it's so...fair.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:15 pm**

Haha the Rock. Awesome.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:22 pm**

That's a pretty sketchy evaluation. We all know that x/1s are never relevant in constructed. Nope, not ever.

If your deck tops out at 4, you can +0 when you you have 4 lands in play (so the turn after playing her). If your deck tops out at 5, you can +0 once you hit your 5th land drop. Of course, this is board state dependent.

I also don't understand what you don't like about Hellrider in that deck, it is still a good card without a swarm. You've never been happy to play Hellrider on to an empty board? Even alone, it kills them very quickly, and with even just a Phoenix in play,
you're hitting for 7 a turn - with the amount of burnt the deck has available, that is a very quick kill.
Potential targets for the +1:

Arbor Elf (has already provide acceleration)
[card]Avacyn's Pilgrim[/card] (has already provide acceleration)
Blood Artist (still drains you)
Boros Elite (Has already hit for chunks of damage)
Disciple of Bolas (has already gained life / drawn cards)
Doomed Traveler (leaves a token)
Elvish Mystic (has already provide acceleration)
Imposing Sovereign (has already messed up your blockers, but at least it frees up your Thundermaw)
Legion Loyalist (has already hit for damage)
Lifebane Zombie (Has already got it's ETB)
[card]Lightning
Mauler[/card] (has already given haste, or hit for damage)
Mayor of Avabruck (has already provided anthem effect for 1-2 turns)
Snapcaster Mage (has already flashed something back)
Strangleroot Geist (undying)
Young Pyromancer (likely has made a token)
Young Wolf (undying)
Tokens (Not gaining card advantage)

Forgive me if I'm not crazy about the plus one. All the viable targets have already got a lot of value, leave a token behind, or grow.

The deck doesn't top out at 4, it tops out at 5. You can't use zero on T4 at all, because you're tapped out. On T5, you don't want to use the zero if you haven't played a land, because you might exile the Thundermaw Hellkite you were about to draw without being able to play it. If you did play your land, you run the risk of exiling a land and not being able to
play it, which equals no value. With that in mind, I think it's risky T5, likely T6 starting to zero it. At that point, your top deck is dictating what you can play, or you're exiling things for no value. In my mind that is a lot worse than actual card draw. It also messes with miracle bonfire of the damned.

I have only played about 5 games with this deck against Junk Aristocrats, but hellrider have been kinda meh when it only gets 1-2 triggers. He needs a deck that curves out to get the broken value we're used to.

I'm willing to test Chandra, Pyromaster, but I'm not crazy about it.

You seem to think her +1 should be consistently better than drawing a card. You don't live in reality.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:25 pm**

Also, using your logic, Flametongue Kavu was bad.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:26 pm**

And you're basically assuming a red deck wouldn't be able to interact with the board before playing Chandra.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:28 pm**

lifebane zombie is a compelling reason to go hellkite mode, and he did get results with it. The hands are just SOOO awkward everytime I play that version.

re: Chandra-what Zeman said

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:30 pm**

Her plus 1 is pretty mediocre, though if lifebane zombie catches on, it becomes a lot more relevant. In the big red deck though, I don't think Chandra's fit better then any card presently in the deck.

I will say, people need to evaluate what they think "value" means to better understand cards. Not directed at anyone in particular, but something I've been thinking about after a conversation I had with a friend.

There's all kinds of value, some of it good, some of it bad, some of it inconsequential.

Killing a manadork turn 4 isn't the best value in the world, though if it's a by-product of playing Chandra, it's affectively free as you put a 5 loyalty walker in play that sort of draws free cards each turn and every now and then, and that's still a dead mana dork.

Whereas, say holding a mizzium mortars for a couple turns to overload against a naya blitz player when your on 5 lands seems like good
value, but is actually just greedy as they're getting so much virtual card advantage attacking you that it doesn't matter(did this, died to a searing spear, won FNM anyways cause there's no justice in the universe).

Even yesterday during the MM portion of the World Championships, Kibler was sandbagging a Sword of LaS in case he drew an engineered explosives which he would ideally pop for 3. He lost that game against Ben Stark and was chastised by Stark while they where shuffling for the next game. It was actually funny along with LSV's commentary on the whole shebang.

IDK how relevant this is to the topic at hand, but just thought I'd throw it out there.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:50 pm**

Her plus draws anywhere from 0.33 cards to 1+ card when activated (forked bolt kill your guy and hit you is worth more than a card). It's very hard for an opponent to remove her, because she immediately goes to 5 loyalty and you've been playing removal / threats turns 1-3. Then you just keep +0 her until they're dead. This isn't rocket science.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:59 pm**

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... dDecklists

Decklists from World Championships.

I remember Fate saying something about kiblers deck vs. his deck and something about scavenging oozes. Apparently, Kibler's deck was an ooze deck, but by the nature of the tourney, all there testing got inbred and kibler decided he needed to be faster to beat lifebane zombie jund so he made last minute adjustments. Apparently worked out for him since he 3-0'd standard.

Coolest deck is easily Wescoe's since it's so...fair.

Reid Duke's Modern deck has been the most exciting part of Worlds for me thus far. GW Hexproof seems pretty good, as things like Kor Spiritdancer and
Aura Gnarlid are very strong cards and Modern has really absurd auras like Angelic Destiny and shit.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:01 pm**

The question is: Is a Chandra in play + red removal enough board control to beat a huntmaster followed by a thragtusk? I don't think it is. Your deck can have only so many 4 drops with zero acceleration and hellrider+burning earth is a lot, with both cards generally being better then Chandra in the context of the current format.

Dead men cast no spells. She just seems pretty subpar on losing board state and only Ok on a neutral board the turn you play her where at least hellrider can just kill people and burning earth shuts the door on the game and forces it to end quickly which is where the red decks would rather be then this incremental game in a field of decks that love playing the incremental game.

@ Alex: The kick in the teeth is that Totem armor gives protection from sweepers.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:09 pm**

Is there a link to the Modern decks?

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:17 pm**

I think it goes up tomorrow.

I know there was a lot of UWR control. There was also Gifts Rock, WG Hexproof, GB Rock, WG Death and taxes, and BW tokens.

The semi's are going to be The Rock vs. Hexproof, and a UWR mirror. I'm guessing reid's aura deck beats the rock and ben stark wins the mirror and the finals are probably going to be a coinflip.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:46 pm**

Rock vs Hexproof is bad for Hexproof, but fingers crossed for him; Reid has improved dramatically in just a year and it would be lovely to see him go all the way.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:08 am**

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... dDecklists

Decklists from World Championships.

I remember Fate saying something about kiblers deck vs. his deck and something about scavenging oozes. Apparently, Kibler's deck was an ooze deck, but by the nature of the tourney, all there testing got inbred and kibler decided he needed to be faster to beat lifebane zombie jund so he made last minute adjustments. Apparently worked out for him since he 3-0'd standard.

Coolest deck is easily Wescoe's since it's so...fair.

4 Banishing Priest and 3 Fiend Hunter in the 75. Shit, that's deep.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:14 am**

Rock vs Hexproof is bad for Hexproof, but fingers crossed for him; Reid has improved dramatically in just a year and it would be lovely to see him go all the way.

I don't know the decklists, but Reid says his deck improves against Josh dramatically after boarding and I believe he beat him already in the modern portion of the event.

Plus, he has THE FIRE!

As for Wescoes list, yeah deep. I'm assuming he just swaps priest for fiend hunter against the pillar decks, but I can see cases where he just goes ALL IN on eating creatures with creatures.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:29 am**

Yeah, it's possible that Josh is discard and point removal heavy, which lines up poorly with Boggle.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:00 am**

Rock vs Hexproof is bad for Hexproof, but fingers crossed for him; Reid has improved dramatically in just a year and it would be lovely to see him go all the way.

Reid's deck is playing quite a few more creatures than the Standard incantations of the deck, so it's been pretty common that he has more than one creature on the field at any given time based on the matches that I saw. The biggest flaw the Hexproof decks of today have is that they put all of their eggs in one basket; this deck is a little closer to a Hexblade list where you have a couple of guys to swap your swords around on. And, as LP said, Totem Armor makes rock's matchup a little tougher.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:05 am**

Also, using your logic, Flametongue Kavu was bad.

Not really a fair comparison. Flametounge Kavu was a red Nekrataal. It was always a 2 for 1 against decks with creatures. Chandra's +1 will sometimes get a 1/1, it'll sometimes be an expensive Curse of the Pierced Heart. Her 0 allows you a second top deck, but also dictates that you must play it. He ultimate is good, but you have to use the so-so +1 to get there.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:07 am**

OMG Ghost Quarter is SO GOOD in Standard!!!

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:12 am**

Also, using your logic, Flametongue Kavu was bad.
Not really a fair compairison. Flametounge Kavu was a red Nekrataal. It was always a 2 for 1 against decks with creatures. Chandra will sometimes get a 1/1, it'll sometimes be an expensive Curse of the Pierced Heart.

My point was that arguments that go along the lines of "the creature has already been in play for 1+ turn, so killing them fir free doesn't mean anything" is silly. If that happens, her +1 is substantially better than drawing a card.

And you don't just sit there +1
Chandra on an open board, you 0 her. Your arguments about why the card is t good are based on not understand the card and picking the worst lines. Nice.

Would you play a copy of an enchantment that read; after you have deawn a card for the turn, you may draw another card. Play that card this turn or exile it. 2RR. Chandra's quite a bit better than that.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:20 am**

Also, using your logic, Flametongue Kavu was bad.
Not really a fair compairison. Flametounge Kavu was a red Nekrataal. It was always a 2 for 1 against decks with creatures. Chandra will sometimes get a 1/1, it'll sometimes be an expensive Curse of the Pierced Heart.
My point was that arguments that go along the lines of "the creature has already been in play for 1+ turn, so
killing them fir free doesn't mean anything" is silly. If that happens, her +1 is substantially better than drawing a card.

And you don't just sit there +1 Chandra on an open board, you 0 her. Your arguments about why the card is t good are based on not understand the card and picking the worst lines. Nice.

Would you play a copy of an enchantment that read; after you have deawn a card for the turn, you may draw another card. Play that card this turn or exile it. 2RR. Chandra's quite a bit better than that.

The problem is, almost all the relevant creatures have ETBs or LTBs, or have already provided ramp into something big.

Killing a mana dork on T4 doesn't matter that much. It's already powered out Smiter / Thrag / whatever.

Killing an undying creature is counterproductive.

Popping a creature that leaves a token isn't great.

I think we can agree the 2/1 body is not the important part of a Snapcaster Mage. The flashback ability is. If you pop a Snapcaster,
they've already got the ETB which means you are getting 0.5 card advantage effectively.

With a lot of those creatures you're only getting +0.5 CA from the +1, if you can even kill it.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:40 pm**

Not sure if its just me but people seem to be missing the falter effect on her +1 which is pretty good, you could board her into AiR and +1 to tap dudes to let your attack get there (and as z said you can think of it as a card draw engine that may kill a dude for free which is 1 less blocker). AirR also make the most use of her 0 ability in that your real curve is 3 but its really closer to 2 so once you have the mana to cast her you could 0 to cast a couple creatures a turn.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:27 pm**

Good points, pka . However, just because AiR can use her best doesn't mean that AiR wants her.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:36 pm**

If I ever have 4 mana out while playing AIR in any format, I'm usually losing.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:37 pm**

I tried her at FNM tonight, hoping that I was wrong. Round 1 she shot a lifebane zombie and took five from a thrag.

Round two she shot a smiter (which was irrelevant) pinged the player, then exiled a bonfire.

I don't plan to play her again before rotation.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:52 pm**

I'm not completely on the M14 Chandra boat, myself. But I feel like she's either a Planeswalker that requires a certain playstyle or a certain level of finesse and skill.

I plead the former though given my skill the latter is likely true in my case.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:03 pm**

She gets significantly better when you're playing in a format with deep deck manipulation. My playtest group has been working on a UR list that is basically "the best cards in these colors" for Legacy, and to say that she's a good companion to Jace is an understatement. We felt we needed another planeswalker that generated card advantage as well as interacted favorably with Upheaval, and Tamiyo just wasn't good enough on her own. So we're playing 4 Jace, 3 Chandra, Pyromaster, and 1 Ral Zarek.

The deck goes deep, but with so much main deck counter magic and ways to protect planeswalkers, Chandra does a lot of work.

Is she good in Standard? Not yet, nope. She's a good card on her own, though.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:05 pm**

I tried her at FNM tonight, hoping that I was wrong. Round 1 she shot a lifebane zombie and took five from a thrag.

Round two she shot a smiter (which was irrelevant) pinged the player, then exiled a bonfire.

I don't plan to play her again before rotation.

What was your list?

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:09 pm**

Also I am fucking excited to watch team unified Standard. The mana bases are going to be SO HORRIBLE yet INCREDIBLY interesting.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:12 pm**

Also I would be shocked if AIR didn't show up in team Standard just based on the fact that most of the cards in Gruul/AIR aren't played in any other decks, and these decks play a lot of basics.

Apparently Stomping Grounds is thusfar the most popular land throughout all of the decks according to one of the head analysts. Not shocked.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:16 pm**

Alex, can you post your UR Legacy list? It sounds fun.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:19 pm**

Apparently Stomping Grounds is thusfar the most popular land throughout all of the decks according to one of the head analysts. Not shocked.

I see what you did there.

Seems to be the most popular shock in Standard right now, especially on MTGO. It's one of the few shocks I don't have a playset of in paper, but I DO have a foil Stomping Ground that I'm looking to trade for heaps of stuff to someone that gets a hard on from foils. Just have to find him.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:20 pm**

Alex, can you post your UR Legacy list? It sounds fun.

Sure can't, it's not my list.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:23 pm**

Apparently Stomping Grounds is thusfar the most popular land throughout all of the decks according to one of the head analysts. Not shocked.
I see what you did there.

Seems to be the most popular shock in Standard right now, especially on MTGO. It's one of the few shocks I don't have a playset of in paper, but I DO have a foil Stomping Ground that I'm looking to trade for heaps of stuff to someone that gets a hard on from foils. Just have to find him.

LSV is rubbing off on me.

It's been a long week of Magic coverage for me. Working from home means
that I keep the stream open on my Xbox/television while I work.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:16 pm**

I tried her at FNM tonight, hoping that I was wrong. Round 1 she shot a lifebane zombie and took five from a thrag.

Round two she shot a smiter (which was irrelevant) pinged the player, then exiled a bonfire.

I don't plan to play her again before rotation.
What was your list?

Based on the 6th place modo premier list

[deck]Creatures (16)
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Hellrider
4 Thundermaw Hellkite

Lands (25)
21 Mountain
4 Mutavault

Spells (19)
4 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Shock
4 Searing Spear
4 Burning Earth
1
Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard (15)
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Possibility Storm
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Rolling Temblor
3 Skullcrack[/deck]

Was painful, but that's why we test. Lost a bunch of games to Solemn10 playing jund between rounds too.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:22 pm**

Welp, my in-laws called this morning and said they'd like to watch the kids tonight while my wife works. That means I get to go to FNM! It's Modern tonight. Looks like I'll be reppin' AIR.

Time to make some last-minute tweaks to my deck.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:27 pm**

when you play bonfires with Chandra, you're playing with fire. Maybe FotF is more consistent with her

Also if you play her into a thragtusk thats just gonna kill her, did you not get at least some profitable swings off of her? Hellrider past the tapped thrag? Or throw a reckoner down in front of the thrag before you play her?

Picked up possibility storms last night, also traded Snapcaster for 2x Watery Grave and 1x Breeding Pool. Worth? Cuz I think worth.

Dies to Removal

[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT