Dies to Removal

It wasn't a matter of guts so much as you already know I am here and I had to get my fix.

I just hope the gigantic essays your guys rip out aren't expected. I suck at writing long stuff and have the patience of a Pomeranian.

Well, the Pomeranian reference proves it's the real Gals.

@Nai: My apologies for intruding on your conversation, but I, as curious bystander, am very curious what changes to the Gutter's behavior you would like to see, specifically and, as you say, just personally.
Also, WB.

So, whats up with the sally server ? or are you not allowed to say ?

Try clicking to the right of Quote

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There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things.

Try clicking to the right of Quote

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There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things.

I don't think anyone here (who matters) cares about the MTGS Gutter any longer.

No offense Galspanic but it looks like an iPhone or something really damaged that post, I am having trouble figuring out what you are trying to say.

No offense Galspanic but it looks like an iPhone or something really damaged that post, I am having trouble figuring out what you are trying to say.

He's saying the Gutter is a McGuffin but most of the staff see it more like Chekov's Gun.

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

Would you like me to
explain what's wrong with this or should I just shut the fuck up?

Edit- @Blackhound: Not kewl, dude. Glitches like that aren't a laughing matter.

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From
how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

Would you like me to explain what's wrong with this or should I just shut the fuck up?

Edit- @Blackhound: Not kewl, dude. Glitches like that aren't a laughing matter.

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

I'm not sure I follow that line of thinking. It's not as if the administration doesn't have
access to the Gutter. Also the Zombie Gutter sucks, nobody wants to post there. It's not on the list reasons I want access to my Kaitscralt account.

From how its been explained to me, it's basically a banner. A psychological 'We have the hill, let's hold it' thing, i guess?

Would you like me to explain what's wrong with this or should I just shut the fuck up?

Edit- @Blackhound: Not kewl, dude. Glitches like that aren't a laughing matter.

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

Okay, I gotta know... for the lulz, you understand... how many of the people who have said that have posted in the ML/RRR?

Just to clarify, I'm trolling here, not trying to, as Harkius would say, get a dog into this
fight.

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

I don't necessarily agree with it. But a lot of the problems here has been specifically about that subforum, less about the actual people in it. The entire concept, the posts therein, so on and so forth. So it's natural to think 'well, if the subforum is gone..."

The shutdown of the gutter forum was announced according to a premise which was proved wrong since: that the gutter had flamed an innocent lurker to the point he asked to have his account deleted. Evidence has been brought that m00se flamed people in there and was unceremoniously booted, just like many
before him.

Most of the beef against the gutter was instigated by administrator rianalnn after the Gutter got increasingly antagonistic against his way of managing the site (in the wake of the scapegoating of a moderator due to WCT drama).

Basically, the Gutter was not causing any drama when it was decided by rianalnn that it needed to go. All the drama can be traced to this alpha event. Compare this with the tenure of Admin Azrael, where many gutter members showed goodwill and helped managing the site for better (For example, It was an honor for me to serve with with Brandoncide in making WCT a light-hearted easygoing forum, and Kijin was one of the longer standing staff-members of the site).

I mean, my beef is that its fairly convenient to blame the Gutter for all the bad that took place when a more closer analysis shows a different picture: that the actions of the former and present staff led to a huge dramabomb when they took it upon their hands to fix what wasn't broken.

The result is
clearly visible. A smoldering crater in MTGS where a thriving community lied before, a bunch of unfairly banned people, and yet another hit to the reputation of the site (which is already the laughing stock of the internet).

Was this worth all the trouble guys?

I had left this site alone for a while after my last post here, since I didn't feel I should intrude any longer. Az talking directly to me on 'Salvation had me curious. I decided to look over here, and was pleasantly surprised by this.

Current MTGS administration:
I'm sorry I used my anger over my friends being banned and mutual misinformation (we both operated on information we had incorrect, this fact is a wash) in an attempt to undermine negotiations for selling your website to curse. The beautification process you guys were enforcing looked to me to be harmful to the site beyond just gutter discussion, but I overstepped my bounds by assuming the worst, conflagrating the situation, and letting my emotions get the better of me.

I am sorry
I have at times not been more patient with you and have lost my patience with you (and other members). Your responses and decisions are slow and processes generally move glacially, but there are far more people on MTGS than just me and many of them are trying to talk to you individually, including a mass of others also active in discussions alongside me. Many times talking to you I feel ignored, and as has been mentioned often, it sucks to be made to feel like you don't matter. Still, I could be more patient instead of less patient.

These are the issues I believe I've had with you collectively in the past. I want to move past these issues I've been at fault for. This is my attempt to move past them.

Kijin, I hope you're being honest in this post and not showing it in jest. Because it's a sentiment I've been wanting to see from anyone for quite some time.

I'm going to speak for myself here. I'd like to make it very, very clear that this is me. Nai. Not the staff. I speak for
myself and no one else.

I believe we made a lot of mistakes. I know I did; as much time as I put in trying to work on the problems between the Staff and the Gutter, I absolutely failed to talk to you guys enough. Kijin has brought that up with me time and again. There are many times where I got caught up with the heat of the moment and spoke to my fellow staff members and came to a conclusion before speaking directly to the people who had information I didn't have.

I do know that some actions that I supported were done off the cuff, with little thought but 'how do we respond to this'. Some actions we took were made because we were in a situation we didn't know, with not enough experience to handle it. Some actions we took because we were misunderstanding the situation, the requirements, the requests. Some actions we took were based on faulty facts and conclusions.

Some actions we took snowballed because of other actions we took.

Some of the bans that were applied were done while I was offline,
so I can't speak for those. These include Kpaca and Kijin. There were others that were done with me giving the go-ahead from my corner, from where I was sitting. You're going to ask me that, if I think we made mistakes, why don't we unban? From where I sit, even now, even looking back, I do believe the bans were the correct action, that they were valid, based on the information at hand at the time.

So the next question is why not unban now? And this is, again, where I speak only for myself. Where I cannot speak for my fellow staff, because they have their own opinions. As you are well aware, we work by voting in the mod lounge in major issues. Everyone has their voice.

On many of you, I've voted to unban. Kpaca has had my vote for a while. Madding, with a recent set of PMs he's sent to Sene, has had my vote

For me, right now, unbans rely on one very little thing: If you guys return to the site, are we going to be back here again? Are we going to have these issues? Can we rely on you to work [i:
17tip0kx]with[/i] us to make the site better? For those that are actively following CI (and I know there's a few), we've been making changes. Working to better the site for everyone. Suspension evasion is no longer such a hard line anymore, as an example. And we're still working. We want to make lives easier. Both our own, so we don't have to worry about being hardasses, so we don't have to work so hard, so we can get our fun back, as GR so eloquently put it. And we want to make your lives better. So you don't have to look over your shoulder as you post, you don't have to worry if you're going to get in trouble with 'the man' for posting. I don't want that on 'Salvation. For you or anyone else.

The major problem I have, right now, is the attitude that's going back and forth. The staff distrusts you guys, you guys distrust the staff. It feeds off each other. It escalates. It leads to situations like this.

There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The
Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things. You guys now have this site, which is growing rapidly and has a wonderful foundation, to do that in. You can make your own rules and set this up the way you want. You can have your cake and eat it too. But you have to blow the candles out here, because I don't want to clean up the mess there.

Are you willing to work with me?

I had left this site alone for a while after my last post here, since I didn't feel I should intrude any longer. Az talking directly to me on 'Salvation had me curious. I decided to look over here, and was pleasantly surprised by this.

Current MTGS administration:
I'm sorry I used my anger over my friends being banned and mutual misinformation (we both operated on information we had incorrect, this fact is a wash) in an attempt to undermine negotiations for selling your website to curse. The beautification process you guys were enforcing looked to me to be harmful to the site beyond just gutter discussion, but I overstepped my bounds by assuming the worst, conflagrating the situation, and letting my emotions get the better of me.

I am sorry I
have at times not been more patient with you and have lost my patience with you (and other members). Your responses and decisions are slow and processes generally move glacially, but there are far more people on MTGS than just me and many of them are trying to talk to you individually, including a mass of others also active in discussions alongside me. Many times talking to you I feel ignored, and as has been mentioned often, it sucks to be made to feel like you don't matter. Still, I could be more patient instead of less patient.

These are the issues I believe I've had with you collectively in the past. I want to move past these issues I've been at fault for. This is my attempt to move past them.

Kijin, I hope you're being honest in this post and not showing it in jest. Because it's a sentiment I've been wanting to see from anyone for quite some time.

I'm going to speak for myself here. I'd like to make it very, very clear that this is me. Nai. Not the staff. I speak for
myself and no one else.

I believe we made a lot of mistakes. I know I did; as much time as I put in trying to work on the problems between the Staff and the Gutter, I absolutely failed to talk to you guys enough. Kijin has brought that up with me time and again. There are many times where I got caught up with the heat of the moment and spoke to my fellow staff members and came to a conclusion before speaking directly to the people who had information I didn't have.

I do know that some actions that I supported were done off the cuff, with little thought but 'how do we respond to this'. Some actions we took were made because we were in a situation we didn't know, with not enough experience to handle it. Some actions we took because we were misunderstanding the situation, the requirements, the requests. Some actions we took were based on faulty facts and conclusions.

Some actions we took snowballed because of other actions we took.

Some of the bans that were applied were done while I was offline,
so I can't speak for those. These include Kpaca and Kijin. There were others that were done with me giving the go-ahead from my corner, from where I was sitting. You're going to ask me that, if I think we made mistakes, why don't we unban? From where I sit, even now, even looking back, I do believe the bans were the correct action, that they were valid, based on the information at hand at the time.

So the next question is why not unban now? And this is, again, where I speak only for myself. Where I cannot speak for my fellow staff, because they have their own opinions. As you are well aware, we work by voting in the mod lounge in major issues. Everyone has their voice.

On many of you, I've voted to unban. Kpaca has had my vote for a while. Madding, with a recent set of PMs he's sent to Sene, has had my vote

For me, right now, unbans rely on one very little thing: If you guys return to the site, are we going to be back here again? Are we going to have these issues? Can we rely on you to work [i:
3j3n1095]with[/i] us to make the site better? For those that are actively following CI (and I know there's a few), we've been making changes. Working to better the site for everyone. Suspension evasion is no longer such a hard line anymore, as an example. And we're still working. We want to make lives easier. Both our own, so we don't have to worry about being hardasses, so we don't have to work so hard, so we can get our fun back, as GR so eloquently put it. And we want to make your lives better. So you don't have to look over your shoulder as you post, you don't have to worry if you're going to get in trouble with 'the man' for posting. I don't want that on 'Salvation. For you or anyone else.

The major problem I have, right now, is the attitude that's going back and forth. The staff distrusts you guys, you guys distrust the staff. It feeds off each other. It escalates. It leads to situations like this.

There are things that you guys want that 'Salvation can't provide. The
Gutter, plainly, is probably one of those things. You guys now have this site, which is growing rapidly and has a wonderful foundation, to do that in. You can make your own rules and set this up the way you want. You can have your cake and eat it too. But you have to blow the candles out here, because I don't want to clean up the mess there.

Are you willing to work with me?

@Nai: My apologies for intruding on your conversation, but I, as curious bystander, am very curious what changes to the Gutter's behavior you would like to see, specifically and, as you say, just personally.
Also, WB.

Unfortunately a lot of people (myself included), feel that unless changes happen on our end if we unban people we will just keep repeating this over and over again. Clearly that isn't a good solution for anyone. I've seen a lot of ideas from a lot of people very high on my "pain in the fuckin anus" list, so I do feel there is hope, but we all have to get into fix-it mode.

Damn, you guys don't have multiquote.

@Col. Khaddafi: I'm not going to mince words: That's exactly the attitude I'm not going to work with. This is not a 'not able'. This is a 'unwilling'. If you are going to passive-aggressively end a post with 'Was it worth it', I'll move on to the next person.

@ Kijin: I'm on your website to work with you. On your ground. Not mine. That's the best I can offer right now.